Sensory Overload & Business: Tips for Neurodivergent Creatives with Amy Voros

Welcome to the Overgivers Anonymous podcast. My name is Angela Mondor, also known as the Geeky Girl. In this podcast, we're going to be talking about some amazing things to help you get over overgiving. Hi, and welcome to the Overgivers Anonymous podcast. My name is Angela Mondor, and I'm also known as the Geeky Girl. Today, I have a really cool guest for you. Her name is Amy Burrows, and PCC is a coach and systems thinker behind Creative Catapult. and host of the podcast Control Alt Think. Love the title. She partners with high-capacity sensitive humans who feel the weight of something unseen and build spaces where internal signals become meaningful structure. Her work isn't about optimizing or overachieving. Instead, she leans into curiosity. How do patterns in our nervous system map into how we build businesses? What happens when the foundation shifts? With neurodivergent creatives, over-functioners, and recovering over-givers, she uncovers questions, witnesses processes, and co-designs systems that ask less of the body and rely more on wholeness. That's awesome. Thank you so much for being here.

You're welcome. And I'm laughing. And, you know, a lot of what I work with for myself is really about using the tools. And I'm like, Oh yeah, the tools can make it sound really good, but also a real mouthful to get out in a speech rhythm.

Right?

Even if it sounds amazing. And, you know, I'm laughing as you're like, over-engineering. I'm like, is that piece I submitted over-engineered? You know, or any of the marketing piece— not marketing pieces, but, you know, that formal polish is a slightly different angle on things than exactly the kind of conversation we're having here. It's like, And they both have their place.

Yes. Well, sometimes it's hard to really quantify in words some of the things that we do because a lot of, I mean, for me anyway, you can tell me if it's different for you, but a lot of the times when I'm working with neurodivergent individuals, including myself and my family members, there's a massaging that has to happen that isn't, there's no, there's no box to put us in. So we have to kind of massage the world around us, right?

Yeah, I think that that's a good way, you know, and for many of us with that Nonlinear systems thinking. Language is flexible, but it still doesn't encompass the way our brains, and probably any human's brain, experience the world. It's, you know, we need a slightly more linear way, and when we try and encompass as much nuance as we can in those linear things, that Is less fluid, even if it sounds— yeah. And by the 17th revision, it's like, you know, it sounds good, and it's not necessarily exactly that same spark from the first round.

It's all good. You know what? I love and embrace the evidence will change in that concept, right? I can have a bio, and it'd be great for a while, and then go, Feel right anymore and change it up. But, you know, the essence is there. Yeah, it's all good. So whereabouts do you live? I didn't even ask that yet. So where are you?

Yeah, so I'm in Seattle, Washington, northwest corner of the US, depending on your listeners' geography. I know some people, it's, you know, pretty North American-centric, and other people, it's a pretty international focus. And I, you know, have had European friends and acquaintances kind of point out that the way so many Americans introduce themselves is very American-centric. And so I try and theoretically encompass a bit wider branch sometimes.

Fair enough. Fair enough. I have to ask because I live in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, which is just above North Dakota, right? Um, and so what is the temperature there right now or about?

Uh, 52 and windy and rain.

52 would be nice. It's 15 here.

Yeah, that's cold. Although it's— and we've got major flood warnings right now because it was quite a bit cooler, and we've got wind advisory, and it's pretty calm right now, but it's wet and dark.

Right, right, right. Yes, the darkness and the clouds right now. I Typically where I live, we get tons of sunshine, usually all year round. One of the things that can be -40 Celsius and we'll still get tons of sunshine, which kind of brings— it's like, okay, yeah, it's cold, but it's nice. But right now we're getting snow and it's cloudy. And even though it's only -9 Celsius, 15 Fahrenheit, it just brings— it's more of a downer, you know?

Yeah, that's a— I mean, it— yeah. One of those people who's super impacted by the daylight. I don't know if you— you may not be able to tell. I've got 2 sun lamps, which also work quite well as lighting for being online. But then I've got more light in my apartment than most people. People walk in and go, oh, it's so bright in here. And I'm like, I don't function without light. So, and not just light, but a lot of light.

Right, right. Yes, yes, I feel you. And, you know, I mean, it's interesting because Um, you know, listeners know I've had this concussion problem, but, um, like light now for me is very, uh, difficult with the recovery from the TBI. Right. So, um, I'm the same as you. I usually have bright lights everywhere and tons of light, but now I, I mean, I'm more of a sunglass girl now.

So, yeah, I feel well in that, you know, light sensitivity is like, it's weird how different parts of the spectrum can affect us so differently because If anything, I maybe— I'm so— I need a lot of light, but it's also like I need a lot of bright light. It's almost like my capacity, and I'm almost insensitive to it, so I need to turn it up. And I— there's a certain blue light, blue-white light at night that, you know, if I walk under a streetlight, I will get viscerally angry. So I, so I also wear like yellow tinted glasses sometimes at night because it just, it keeps me being more who I want to be.

That's awesome. And I think it's like that, that nuance is important, right? Like we talk about sensitivities a lot. Sometimes we don't express what those sensitivities are, right? That, like, for example, you just said that, you know, that light in the evening will make you angry. If I listen to Baroque music, which is like a type of classical, like that Baroque music, instant anger. Like, it's the wildest feeling in the world. Whereas I can listen to other classical or hard rock or country or whatever. Like, I love a lot of genres, but that one genre, you— if I'm hearing it, my skin just falls and I just get mad.

And it's so weird how— and like, even trying to explain or quantify some of those is like, yeah, feel a little nuts because it's like, it is so like nervous system based that there's like no Rational, you know, it's like people at least get the headlights in my eyes being annoying, but like walking under a streetlight, it's like, yeah, you know, I just—

Yeah, yeah, there's some socially acceptable, right? Like there's the sound of a knife on your plate or the sound of nails on a chalkboard or like just some socially acceptable or aware type things that people have. But then you go, that hum of the refrigerator, if it doesn't stop, I'm going to lose my crap.

Right. And it's like, just be more tolerant or just be more. And I'm like, but yeah, you know, so it's like, and I think too, for me, I don't know if I've always been sensitive or if it's, you know, we were briefly talking before we started. I've had a couple of brain tumors, but I now wear Flare Audio ear sleeves. They don't cut the sound, but they cut the distortion. And that's since my— brain surgery a couple, you know, that has made a big difference on days when I'm having really just more sensitivity. You know, that seems to take it down a couple notches, especially some of those weird sensitivities.

When I have, I have earbuds, so it's probably similar to those.

They're different, actually. They don't cut the, the decibel volume. They redirect the sound into your ear differently.

Okay. Okay.

It's a yes and.

Yes and.

Yeah.

Yeah. I know that I've got one dog who goes nuts sometimes, and you just can't. Okay. The funny story is we have to put the First 48 TV show on, and then she calms down, but she loves to watch the murder show. I don't know. It's that one show, but sometimes she'll go crazy, and I just put the earbuds in. It's just sort of Takes the edge off of her bark.

Yep. Yep. Yep. And that, that's important. Yeah. The one that, yeah, for me it's car tires on wet roads. Oh, I mean, of all the bizarre things that make me twitch, that is. And I can tell how dysregulated my nervous system is by how reactive I am. And that's taken me a number of years though. And being less reactive for a while to actually understand that, oh, when I find that I am really unhappy with that noise, I need to, you know, be extra aware and take extra steps to keep things in check. Or, you know, it just eats away my resilience over time.

And I think that that is a key piece here. When you said, It took me a while to get here, right? And also to say, like, now I know when I feel this, then I know that this is like— our emotional regulation can be managed well, but when it goes out, it's out, right?

Well, and you know, in the same vein, it's like I've— I work with a virtual assistant who's 4 hours ahead of me.

Yeah.

And, you know, I've always known that, you know, it's like I'm a morning person, but it takes me a while to kind of be— I'm a morning person, but I'm not a morning person. Um, and that, you know, for so long I've been really frustrated that I'm in a bad mood in the morning, and, you know, it takes me a while. And finally it like actually clicked, you know, in the last couple months that it's like, no, I'm actually not in like an emotional bad mood. I'm in a bad mood because All the pieces are— still have grit in the gears. I am not fully regulated yet, and as I fully regulate, I'm fine.

Yeah.

And that just to have a little bit more— I'm a little reluctant to call peace with myself, but, you know, a little bit of a different way of looking at it is like, oh, it's— I mean, it is a bad mood, but it's It's not because things are wrong, bad mood?

Yeah, I need time in the morning to kind of adjust to the things, noise, sound, lights, movement, like the stimulus, right? Like I need time to get used to that. Like my best morning is when I wake up, sit by myself, read or listen to my book while I have my breakfast. Nobody touched me for a while. Yeah.

And another way to come online for me sometimes is doing some of those low-grade mental things, you know, talking to somebody. But, you know, then there's that social piece where it's like, I feel bad that I'm in this, oh, everything's stressful and dramatic space. Um, because it's, you know, I don't want to take it out on other people either. But again, as I understand it, it's like, oh, No, it's, you know, it's just my brain and body not really being in sync yet that, you know, I can frame it and try and direct it a little bit differently.

Well, sometimes it's communication, right? Like this past Sunday, I got up after everybody else got up, which is never a good way to start my Sunday, but that's whatever. It just happened, right? And so my husband was talking to me and my daughter was talking to me. And I just walked up to my husband and I went, I didn't get my quiet time before we started this morning. And like, y'all are awake. I'm not awake yet. So like, give me some time to edge into this morning, you know?

Right.

And knowing that my spouse needs that from me, right? Like, if I didn't tell him that, he'd continue because he thinks it's funny and, right? But if I say to him like, dude, like, Pull it back a bit. Like, just give me a moment, and he will. But it's that it's understanding the people around us. Like, who supports you, and in what way do you have to support them so they support you so that you support them? Right, right. Back and forth as well. I mean, each relationship's different for sure, because I can get on the phone with my girlfriend and go, "I'm bitchy," right, right. Works different, right?

Right. Well, and over time, each one, yeah, develops its own set of dynamics and how you navigate it.

Yes. Yeah. And I think that the getting to know who you are is so important, like really spend the— spending the time to understand who you are. To me, I think it's not selfish because I know that some, especially women, but also us neurodivergents, we think, oh, we should find a way to fit in because that's what we've been told their whole lives. Like, just, you know, shut up and bear it, or, you know, don't be so sensitive, or all those things.

Right.

But it's not, it's not, um, it is not something that ignoring it makes it better. Like, when we take the time, and whether you call it selfishness or not, but taking that self-awareness time and to learn yourself, I have found personally that the more I know about myself, the better my life has been.

Well, and that's a huge, you know, testament to your awareness and being able to model that for others around you, or, you know, your listeners or your kids, husband, whatever your family makeup looks like, you know, and friends and, you know, other people in your extended network as well.

It's, it's a— And I would say that what's interesting is that things change. Of course, like you said, you've had, you know, brain tumors and you've had brain surgery. I had this TBI, and it has changed me from who I was 6 months ago. I'm very— not very, I am different. Things are different. They impact me differently. And when you are self-aware, when things change, You have the tools already. It's still a struggle. It's still hard. I'm not saying it's easy. Right. You have the tools to change.

Well, the tools, you know, and don't have— you may need to adjust the tools, but you don't necessarily need to relearn them. You may probably need to recalibrate them because your nervous system is different.

Totally.

You know, and having the tools doesn't mean you can immediately figure out how to apply them. You might be able to apply more quickly, but it's not like an auto channel flip and everything. Suddenly, you know, running in the new track.

No, totally not. Yeah, we're still working on it. It's still happening.

Well, the couple quotes from high school that occasionally come floating back, which was its own eon many, many years ago, but the slightly more interesting version from science class, or maybe this came out afterwards, you know, it was like, every day we're alive, we, you know, should be learning something. But my English teacher's version that I thought was rather morbid, even in, you know, 10th grade, was like, well, from the day we're born, we begin to die. Which isn't untrue, but it's not a real inspiring, necessarily, baseline.

Maybe they just thrive on gallows humor.

She was a— she was a very interesting individual. We managed to spend a month of AP English discussing Of Mice and Men. This book in large print is 100 pages.

Yeah, but yeah, it's, it's a, it's a poignant book. There, there is a lot of undercurrents in that book, so I mean, you totally can.

That's fair. And the 10th grade, we're like, you know, you can make up— I think my friend and I took to making up symbolism and both got fabulous Grays on the paper because we were— and maybe it was the creative thinking that we both had, you know, but that it sounded plausible. And, you know, but yeah, we were like, okay, open it up, point at that page, make something up that's symbolic.

Yeah, well, at least, you know, I mean, the thing is, it was something— I was not a reader in high school. In fact, I never read any of my books. I was a terrible student. I just couldn't, I just couldn't handle it. Nowadays, I'd be able to at least read and listen to the books or whatever, like if I was in that same place now, I read hundreds of books a year. But I know that back then, the only way I passed those English courses was class participation, right? The discussions about the book, even if I hadn't read the book, we'd have discussions about the book.

Right.

I was actually Right before my exam, grade 12, I was in the library, which wasn't the place I hung out to for academic reasons. I was just hanging out with people who were there. And I leaned back and I pulled a book from the thing. It just happened to be by the author of another book that was in class. And I read the back just for fun. And it talked about her life or whatever. And so they, in the exam, it was that, it wasn't that, like it was that author. And I had to write an essay on it. I'm like, oh, and I worked in all the stuff about her life. And I'm like, oh.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm like, isn't it? It worked. There is something about— now looking back as an adult, I can see how, you know, my sibling could be pulled completely apart.

Yeah. And yet that pattern-seeking ability, you could tie the things from that book into an essay without having read either book. You know, it's just, again, a thinking style thing, not that you're Better or smarter, you know, than anyone else. It's just your brain is able to take that information and weave it in in a way that academia relishes in a lot of contexts.

Good teachers, right? Like my daughter said, my daughter's— she reads hundreds of pages a day as a kid. You know what? She was constantly reading. She used to get in trouble for reading in class because she would But like, her teachers, some of, weren't really good with, with her ideas. They just wanted her to spit back what they told her. So it's nice to hear that you had a teacher that was like, yeah, let's, let's, let's evolve and think about these things as opposed to just, here's my ideas and I must have you just spit them back.

Yeah, well, and I think we may have felt that. And so, but again, it's like we were being as ridiculous as we could in our opinion, and It was thought of as being amazing. So it was like, okay, whatever.

That's awesome. I love that. Because you're right. It's that idea of thinking, how can you think differently? And I think that that probably, you know, helps when you learn how to think abstractly or to like really dig into and think, well, maybe, maybe, maybes. Really helps you kind of think if you can apply that to yourself too and go, wow, I'm feeling this way, but is it because of this or because of that? And it helps you kind of dig into it.

Yeah. Well, and you know, that ability to see all the details sometimes is useful and sometimes we can form patterns and sometimes we get so lost that we, I miss the bigger picture too. It's like, is my energy off because of A, B, C, or D? And you know, whatever, probably all of them. And whereas somebody else would come in and likely attribute it to like one or maybe 2 specific items.

Yeah.

I'm trying to attack them all on this, you know, at the same time. And sometimes I'm right, and sometimes I'm vastly wrong.

That's all right. It's cool to be right and wrong. I don't know. I learn from being wrong. I'm open to it.

There is a lot to be said for that.

So getting to, you know, knowing yourself really well and having the ability to sort of connect with who you are. How do you use that when you're thinking about how you're interacting with, let's say, your work or your tasks? Like, do you have cues that help you to understand that I'm feeling this way because I'm having a hard time with this task and this task should be easy? Like, does that help you there?

You know, sometimes it really depends, but I've in the last 6 months or so really taken to In the last year, really exploring, you know, how much of a bottom-up thing. So it's like, you know, kind of I formed labels as I group all the details together and clump things and sort of build. And not entirely that way, um, but so I've taken the extension from that into sort of mind mapping and mind mapping out a lot of my tasks to make them fairly tangible. And when I can get it small enough, you know, I can Do it. And this probably actually is going to transition, intentionally or not, back to the topic that we discussed opening up, which is the I just need to. And so when I often know that I'm struggling or there's an I just need to, something has sat on my task list for an unreasonable length of time, given the task. And, you know, a lot of it over time, you— I've untangled, you know, if it's a fairly routine task, as long as it's broken down far enough. Because I'm also thinking about boredom or whatever, or daunting, you know, that. But again, that's a— I just need to— there's an emotional barrier in the way. But if everything is rational, what I'm thinking about is I've been avoiding— not even avoiding, I can't figure out. I've finally worked through most of it, but there's been an insurance claim that I've been trying to contest that was for an out-of-network thing that should have been, you in network due to a lot of confusion. And I just haven't— I know all the secrets, not all of them, but, you know, it's like I have gone through body doubling, I've gone through breaking it down, I've gone through scheduling tasks, I have done microsteps, I have had therapy sessions and coaching. And objectively, this is not this hard. I have done these things before. So it's like, it's not—

Yeah.

It's not a new process. It is, yeah, from a, you know, a checklist point, I know exactly what to do. There is a— so yeah, this thing that I've been avoiding or haven't been able to make tangible progress on is a cue that there's something else going on for me.

Right. Yes. Well, and it's interesting because A, it's hardly ever the same damn thing that keeps us from doing what we need to do. But like, it can be an emotional thing that keeps us from doing it. It could be the simple breakdown and not knowing what the next step is, which obviously isn't yours for this particular thing. But like, it could be, I just don't feel good right now. It could be, um, I'm emotionally dysregulated every single time I sit down to do it. Like, there are so many different ifs, right?

Right.

Sometimes I think that the mining of the ifs can be annoying if you're like, I've checked off every single thing off my list. I can't figure out why I can't get this stupid thing done.

Right. Well, and that's kind of where it's fun to have a conversation in my book with other people is, you know, getting another perspective or another way to look at it or some other thoughts to try. And sometimes it really is as simple as identifying that, oh, I thought I knew what the next step was, but I, when I actually sit down and try and explain it, I'm not as clear as I thought I was.

Right. Yes.

Um, or the emotional piece of, you know, if you're familiar with Brandon McCann's— McCann, I always mangle his name— The Wall of Awful.

Okay.

But if you're not, that's a good one to look up. The Wall of Awful is, uh, but basically a metaphor. And every time we fail at something, we get another emotional Fair enough. Um, he uses it as a whole coaching framework, and I'm not gonna— I'm not well enough versed in it, um, nor am I gonna eat up all your time trying to explain it. But, you know, it's, it's kind of a cool thing that, you know, we've built this emotional resistance because we've not been successful before. We've let ourselves down, we've let others down, we've You know, and so it becomes this big emotional association of, you know, I've not been successful in the past. So this time too is that much more work to engage.

Well, and that's the stress that we have on ourselves, right? So, I mean, even if I know, I know all the steps I need to do and I know what I, what, what's coming up next and I know what the outcome is typically going to be, or I know where I'm headed in terms of an outcome. But maybe there's the extra pressure. I mean, because this is insurance, it's like I'm waiting for money to come back or, you know, there's a financial burden around it. So now there's this and maybe somebody else is relying on you for some other financial thing. And like, it could be just an obstructive piece in that that's outside there. And I think you're right. It's important to talk to other people. I get so much clarity from talking with other people. It's, it's eye-opening to see my struggles from somebody else's perspective and not just, oh geez, they've got it worse than me. No, no, no. Like, to actually be able to have a conversation with them and then go, oh, well, what about this? And you're just like, ah, shoot, why didn't I think that? It's just nice to hear somebody else's perspective.

Exactly. And, you know, I had hoped to gain that with some of the conversations I've had around this. And, you know, yeah, in some ways the pressure from a different angle is higher on me because it's like, dude, you've done this before. Just sit down and do it, you know, or even just sit down and open the document. Because too, with that task initiation, so often I know that once I get started, it's been like this. I know at this point fairly well how to work with myself, and this one has just eluded me. So it's been, you know, that ex— a different kind of pressure of like, you know how to do this. You help people figure this out.

Yeah.

You have helped yourself figure out a lot of this And it's still just like, if it's on my list, I'll just straight up avoid it. Yeah, not intentionally. And there have been some other legitimate big things, and I'm also well enough versed in systems to know that, you know, if you don't pay this, there is a problem. There's a whole different set of problems that are going to emerge from not paying attention to it.

Yes. Yeah, well, and it's important to, to To know your resources as well, right? Like I'm having a hard time with some of my tasks that I would like to do. I I can't spend much time with a with a computer right now. So I used to spend eight nine hours a day on a computer. I can't. I mean, I'm out right now, which is a bizarre feeling for me, right? And so sometimes you have to know maybe I know what to do and I know all the things and yada yada yada. But my particular situation is. In this situation, I can look and go, ah, you know what? It's just because I can't sit in front of a computer that long. Okay, to Julia, my executive assistant, I'm having trouble doing this task here. Can you pick up these pieces? Right? And get somebody else to do bits and pieces for you. Sometimes it's that, or even, hey, I don't need you to do the whole thing, but I need you to do this one thing. And sometimes that helps you get rolling, or if you— have somebody who's like, oh, you know what, I just need somebody to be accountable to, right? And not in a stressful way, like not like, you haven't done this thing, but just like, hey girl, have you done this thing? Or like—

Right. Well, that parental— yeah, the parental authoritative thing doesn't work for most of us. It sets off so much of that resistance to being told what to do.

Yeah. And yet, tell me what to do, I won't do it.

Even if, you know, it's like that, you know, somebody referred to it as their inner toddler having a tantrum.

Yes.

But, um, yeah, you know, that peer or the coach or, you know, your executive assistant just asking about it, you know, it's kind of like it comes at it from a different angle, from the side, and suddenly you can engage instead of somebody standing in front of you going, it's like, yeah, we're going over here, you know. But if somebody comes up beside you and starts asking about it, it's— it can engage differently. It's like not as threatening or something.

Well, and sometimes we can be our own internal parent, right? Standing over ourselves yelling at us. I think that that one's the hardest part, the hardest one to shut up. I was actually watching, uh, um, a I was watching a comedy show last night, and the characters in the comedy show, they were talking about how they had this internal voice and how it was like dragging them down. And they're like, stop talking to me like that. It's hilarious.

Yeah.

Sometimes you just gotta quiet the monsters.

You do. And, you know, all of those are pieces that have information and want something good for us. And, you know, so how do we work with that? And not just tell it to be quiet, but acknowledge what it's trying to do for us, or what is it trying to help prevent, and how do we acknowledge that and have it step back a couple of paces so that we can hear ourselves think and move forward.

Right. And so when you get to this point now with a task that's like, I have tried every trick in my particular book, my toolbox is open, I've used everything I can possibly think of, and I still just need to— what, what is your go-to next?

Usually take a nap and try again tomorrow.

Fair enough.

And sometimes that's for shorter-term tasks, that can be a great solution, you know, because it's sometimes the time or the space my brain will process and, you know, be up against it. You know, with this insurance thing, um, it's been a combination of Just continuing. I've even, you know, done a bunch of like nervous system calming stuff to try it. I've done a bunch of journaling around it and, you know, it, it really is tied to some bigger life concept issues in my book.

Yeah.

So it, I mean, I can see where it's coming from and just finally I'm like, you know, I've got to try a different path. It's like I got done what I intended in And then a couple other factors came up and I'm like, that's actually not the right way to proceed right now.

Yes.

Which was, is like, is that what the resistance was about? Or is it now that I've, yeah, you know, 'cause it's just long and complicated, but it's like, okay, now we got the letters written and now I'm gonna sit on it 'cause I decided pursuing a slightly different angle actually makes more sense right now. And I still have these done, but, you know, wasn't my body trying to tell me that this was not the way to proceed, or was it really the equivalent of, you know, complex trauma? I don't know.

Yeah. Well, and you know what? We can get overwhelmed. And when we're overwhelmed and overstimulated, it can be really difficult, right? So like you said, taking a nap. I crochet, I read books, you know. And so sometimes those things can be helpful to reset or restart. If I'm having a particular— I haven't done it in a while, but if I'm having a particularly bad day, sometimes I go and take a second shower just because So I was like, I need to restart my day from the beginning.

Yep. No. And, you know, and in the moment, you know, I think I forget how much I've already got so many other things to try that I don't often realize I'm stuck because I've got 27 different angles to attack it from. And, you know, so it's like maybe, you know, I will often take a nap for, or close my eyes for 20 or 30 minutes or come back to it later. And so what I define as stuck or, you know, what to do next, by the time I'm applying that internal label to myself, it's like I am really backed into a corner.

Yes. Yeah. And sometimes it helps, like, you know, to have people that go, hey, by the way, do you want to go for a walk? Like, maybe we need to go touch grass, you know?

Yeah. Well, and again, it's interesting to sit here and go that Oh yeah, there are times I may not be rolling through things as quickly as I think, but the fact is, oh yeah, I actually have a lot of resources that I will try before I actually name myself as stuck. Right, right.

Yes.

And that can be an interesting perspective in and of itself. It's like, oh, you know, and too, as I've done a lot of interoception work and a lot more nervous system awareness, I've gotten much better at knowing what's going to help me kind of flip into a different space.

Right.

You know, because it was always— you'd always hear about, oh, when I'm mad, I know to do thing X, and when I'm sad, I do thing Y. And I'm like, it's always felt kind of like, you know, I will keep running through things until something sticks, but that other people have the ability to actually know what to try in certain Circumstances is just kind of always baffled me.

Yeah, yeah. I think that, I don't know, us neurodivergent people, we get kind of bored with if we do it the same way all the time, right?

That's true.

Like, like maybe, you know, putting on this particular playlist has been great when I'm in this particular mood, but then one day you put it on in that mood and go, this isn't working anymore.

Right. When the novelty is worn off. Exactly.

The dopamine isn't there, right?

And so then, yeah, what else do you try? It's like, I have gotten people on a kick intermittently physiological sighing. I don't know if you're familiar with that one. It's, uh, so you— okay, guess I have to do the full thing before I can actually try and explain it. I can't explain it while I'm doing it. It's basically take a deep breath in through your nose as far as you can, and then a little You know, extra sort of sniff or inhale on top of it, and then breathe out slowly, and it actually will help reset your nervous system.

Okay. Yes, I've heard some of this breathing exercise stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, you know, and this one is different than the box breathing or a lot of the other breathing. This one seems to hit the nervous system differently. And, you know, some people find it— well, a lot of people really like it. There are some people it's, you know, overstimulating or too calming. And I think that's a lot to be said for being aware too. It's like not one set of exercises or techniques is right for everybody and every nervous system.

Oh yeah, for sure. And like we've talked about, you know, the different kinds of lights or the different kinds of sounds or, but I think that what's, what's important is if you're looking for something to help you and you're not sure what, Just freaking try it. Like, try all the things. I mean, at least once. And then you can go, I tried it and didn't like it, or I tried it before and I didn't like it then, but maybe it'll work now. But at least you have that in your toolbox to try.

For sure. And, you know, I think counterpoint to that too, sometimes if you don't want to try it and you don't want to do anything, sometimes too, that's the right answer is, you know, just stop trying.

Yeah, just let it be. Just learn it in case you need it for next time.

Well, that too. But yeah, you know, and yet sometimes we're too persistent. You know, it's like we should just learn to let it stop, you know, recognize that when we're beating ourselves to a pulp and what happens if we stop doing that for a few minutes?

Right. You have to give yourself some grace. I usually say, yeah, give yourself some space. One of my favorite places here where I live, there's a spa, it's called Thermia. And it is— I don't take my phone in, and it's just saunas and whirlpools and like resting areas. Like, I'm not a I-can-sleep-in-public person, but I can sleep there in public. It's the weirdest place, but it is the most relaxing place where I'm just— I can just be nothing. No phones, no stimulus. I mean, you're getting stimulus from the, you know, the hot and cold because you've got hot plunges and cold plunges and that kind of thing.

Right.

But it's one of my favorite places to just kind of go, oh.

Well, and how vital that nervous system reset or down calibration really is in our entire existence, I think, really, not to overstate it, but really our entire existence, finding that spot where we can Sort of what's the word I want? You know, go down to kind of a lower, you know, input and output and let the nervous system just kind of reset.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that for some people, a low stimulus environment would be irritating for them. I mean, it would have been for me years ago, right? But for me now, I'm like, you know, like my husband's retiring at the end of this year, and I'm like, okay, dude, like we're gonna go find some trees and some water, and that's where we're gonna go live. Okay, like in the woods. I'm over city living. I need just chill.

Right. Well, and knowing when and where it all is working, you know, and some of it too is that nervous system matching, you know, what do you need right now?

Yeah, exactly.

And having that ability to kind of learn to go, oh yeah, low environment, stimulation environment is like too out of sync with where I am right now and is just going to make me want to throttle everybody here.

Think too much.

Well, yeah, think too much. Or, you know, I'm going to be so twitchy that I just— yeah, I do a lot of sensory deprivation floating. Okay. And that's kind of one of those— it's almost always the right answer. And there are some days where it's like I end up getting out after a few minutes Because I, I have a membership so I can, I don't feel bad about cutting a session short. And I'm like, I should have gone for a walk because I am just, I can't settle.

And that is better. I can't do a full hour in there, which we do ours in hour sessions. I can't, I do, I stay for the full hour, but by the time I'm about probably 45 minutes in, I'm just there playing in the water. I'm sloshing around and I'm having a good time because I just can't. I can't be still that long. Yeah, I need to move around.

But there is something too, and you know, that's giving your body sensory information in a way that you're currently finding beneficial.

It's— yes. Yeah, it's, it's, it's great. I love, I, I love the experience. My husband is a, um, he's claustrophobic, so he never ever wants to be part of the experience, even though I told him we've got like a room and the door is open and he's He can't even go to IKEA. And IKEA is huge, right? But because he can't find his way out of IKEA, he becomes claustrophobic. So, you know, you have to be aware of what are the stimuluses that are going to be positive and negative and work with that and make sure you have what's good. He likes Thermia. He can stay for, you know, 8 hours with me. It's all good.

Right, right.

So I think that, you know, knowing yourself, getting to know yourself, I think is a big piece to, you know, what you talked about is understanding how you're interacting with the world and what works for you, what doesn't. And of course, having these moments of, I just need to get this thing done, or, and having the ability to know yourself and know what's stopping me.

Yeah. Well, and that it evolves and continuing to see what the next piece is that helps and what the task This week is that I just need to.

Right. And it doesn't, doesn't make it easier. Okay. So I shouldn't say that. It doesn't make it easy.

Right. One, it doesn't always make it easier either. It may give you some insight into why it's not easy, but that's still— knowing is not the same as doing.

Right. Yes, it could still be difficult to get done, but sometimes knowing why it's difficult is helpful to at least get through it.

That is also true.

Awesome. I have loved spending time with you today, and I know that everybody who's listening will get some really great tips from this concept of how do we get through the things. And so where do you want people to go next to get more information about you?

Well, they can find me probably most easily on my website, creativecatapult.com. creativecatapultcoach.com, even though my business is Creative Catapult Coaching. We'll blame that on what was available when I registered the domain 15 years ago, and I've never gotten around to changing it. But you can also send me an email directly at amy@creativecatapultcoach.com if my website is being funky. I'm redoing a bunch of things right now, and it's generally working.

Yay!

And there's some moments that it has an opinion That it too just needs a reset.

You know what? That's just tech.

Yeah.

I mean, we'll make sure that we have all that in the show notes as well as we have your Facebook page as well. So Facebook page.

Yeah. And I'm getting back into the habit of posting both on Instagram and LinkedIn and Facebook as well. I am happy to interact with people on there, although I admit LinkedIn, you're probably more likely to get an actual reaction because I don't get as much spam there. Fair.

Yes, there's a lot of spam in a lot of places. Yeah.

And I'm always curious to hear what people think and, you know, spend a lot of time and energy talking about this for fun. So I'm always interested to, you know, see what other people are thinking as well.

Awesome. Well, I appreciate you. Thank you so much for being with us today.

Thank you for having me.

Have a fantastic day. We'll talk to you next time. Thank you so much for listening to the Overgivers Anonymous podcast. Your support means the world to me. You can find show notes for this episode and other goodies at overgiversanonymous.ca. And if you enjoyed this episode or you enjoy the podcast in general, why not join us in the Overgivers Anonymous Facebook group where you can connect with overgivers? From all over the world. Head on over to geekygirl.ca/group.