Navigating Education Challenges with Sharon Thomas

A lot of the work we do taps into executive function skill development, being able to sustain attention to a task, initiate a task plan, prioritize, organize time, manage. Without that foundation of executive function skills, it's like building a house without a strong foundation, eventually it's going to fall on you.

Hello, I'm Dr. Farrah White.

And I'm Dr. Grant Brenner.

We're psychiatrists and therapists in private practice in New York. We started this podcast in 2019 to draw attention to a phenomenon called the Doorknob comment. Doorknob comments are important things we all say from time to time just as we're leaving the office, sometimes literally hand on the doorknob.

Doorknob comments happen not only during therapy, but also in everyday life. The point is that sometimes we aren't sure how to express the deeply meaningful things we're feeling, thinking and experiencing. Maybe we're afraid to bring certain things out into the open or are on the fence about wanting to discuss them. Sometimes we know we've got something we're unsure about, about sharing and are keeping it to ourselves. And sometimes we surprise ourselves by what comes out.

Hi, thanks so much for tuning in to Doorknob Comments today. I'm here with my co host, Grant Brenner and our very special guest, Sharon Thomas. Sharon is the founder and CEO of the Maya Education Resource Center. She leads their education and school placement team and has over two decades of professional experience in the field of education and research. She's worked with hundreds of families to identify resources, resources, establish goals and implement practical plans that have positive long term impact on the individuals that she serves. Her areas of expertise include school placement, expert witness on education cases, learning specialists, individual child assessment, educational consultant to private public and charter schools, and public speaking on education related topics. Sharon, thanks so much for being here today.

Thank you for having me. Yeah.

So I think you and I have met a few times socially and through other, you know, through colleagues around the city. And we are across the street neighbors. So that's been fun to know someone in the neighborhood. But tell us a little bit about how you got started in the field of education and how Maya Education Resource center came to be.

I just also want to say thank you for joining us. It's a pleasure to meet you. As a parent of twins in New York City school system, I think you must have the patience of a saint, especially with so many different areas of expertise.

Well, Grant, I guess I could say I do have a patience of a saint towards all of my families whom I'm Very honored to serve. Not so much towards my own 16 year old.

You can relate.

Yes. So thank you again for having me with you today. It's such an honor, first of all, to know you and to be able to collaborate with colleagues whom I have high esteem for. My education came into being 16 years ago. It's named after my daughter Maya. At the time, I joked that it was raising two kids. I had a newborn Maya and I had a newborn company. And this company really grew out of a passion that I have. I believe education is absolutely doorway for everything in life success. My mother comes from a background where she did not have many opportunities growing up and she really had to fight hard to get a good education. She was raised in Brazil in an area that did not have particularly great education. She also didn't have the means and at the time she had to put herself through college by having a series of jobs and she was able to get through law school. Started law school at 16, a child prodigy, which is not my case, but I really grew up with a strong sense of how important education is. And that was something that she most definitely impressed upon me and my brother. Education was absolutely the focus of our growing up years. And so I started off already very aware and passionate about what education can do for people, irrespective of what background they have. And when I started my profession, actually I started out in the field of child development, thinking I was going to pursue a PhD in child psychology. And then life took me in a completely different direction. I did a Master's in child development and worked as a teacher therapist in a nursery school that was part of a clinic. And while doing that, I also was tutoring on the side. And a private school picked me up and said, hey, do you want to come in and be interviewed for a learning specialist job? And I took the job and then went back to get a Master's in education with specialty and learning disabilities. And I found it was actually a perfect fit because it was a crossroads of what I had learned in psychology and then also being able to look at students learning and be able to have measurable progress, really understand what are the goals, where are we taking the student. And so that led into services that I developed within my education, which are both the academic one to one support and the school and college placement. And the two really do go hand in hand. Sometimes families will be coming to us with questions about their child's learning. And it could be that we're putting tutoring in place, or it could be that we're really talking first about another referral is needed. First we need to take a closer look at what's going on here. What are the barriers to learning? Does this child need a neuropsych, a neuropsychological evaluation? Does the child need psychopharmacological consultation? What is it that is the best next step? It may not be us as the best next step, but we will guide that family as to best next step. And then we may be putting in place the executive function coaching or the content tutoring or specific academic interventions and. Or we may be looking at school placement and college placement. So this is exciting in the sense that we get to work with many families who have been with us at different points in time throughout the years. So we really get to know the families and really get to know the students. I have families, for instance, who started out with question marks about kindergarten placement, and then they circle back for middle school placement, or circle back for high school placement, or even college placement. So I really get to see sort of that developmental trajectory. And that's. That's very exciting.

Sounds really cool. I love to follow people over the course of, like, different stages. And for you, you know, in putting together Maya, you know, the company, what were the biggest, I guess, like gaps that you were hoping to fill? Because I know you come from this background of, I'm sure, like very well resourced schools. And what was it that you felt like was needed when you decided to branch out on your own?

So the idea of founding Maya came about when I was working in schools and parents would pull me aside and ask to speak with me private, if they could speak with me, off the record, if I could, you know, essentially provide a consultation within the school setting that was private for them. And that then generated the idea of having a space that felt safe for families to come to and where families were going to get advice that was not motivated by any financial gain. So really understanding what the family needs is the number one priority. Sometimes they think they need one thing and actually they need something else just because they're not in the field of education. So having the opportunity to give families education, give families resources, was at the forefront of starting my education resource center because I realized irrespective of socioeconomic background, cultural background, all families who don't have access necessarily to professionals in the field of education or, or don't know who to go to feel very much at loss when their child has issues.

What were some of those pain points? And to the extent you can, how come they didn't feel Comfortable being on the record.

So there are many reasons why a family may not feel comfortable being on the record. But what I find is most common is a fear that if a family discloses something that they're seeing has become an issue for their child at school, school and. Or at home, or if they go forward with any kind of evaluation that that information will be used against them, against their child in the school setting, that could include counseling the child out of the school.

That's a terrible fear to have as a parent. This sort of power dynamics.

It's a terrible feeling to have. And as I always say to families, it's always best for them to be the driver of those decisions as opposed to the other way around. And that's where getting more information about their child's learning profile is of benefit.

Right. What kind of leverage do parents have that they can sort of counter that fear of being counseled out?

So when you ask the question, what sort of leverage, what comes to mind exactly?

Well, yeah, for me, you know, I don't know, it probably varies a lot from school to school. But, you know, schools have this capacity to potentially counsel parents out, and that can put parents and families sort of on their back foot. I'm thinking, well, if you're trying to. If you think the school is a good fit and you don't want to be someone who, you know, the school wants to kind of avoid dealing with something that is maybe their responsibility.

You.

Know, what can parents do to provide information or communicate with schools? And also, I guess there's a corollary question which is, well, how. How often does it happen that schools are looking to counsel kids out? Because in my experience, they're usually not unless there's some particular circumstances. They kind of want kids to succeed for a variety of different reasons.

I would agree with you. I think more often than not, schools really want students to do well. And when we're talking about counseling out, we are specifically talking about private, independent schools. We're not talking about public schools. So because in the public sector, there are laws that govern what families have the right to, and that is a free, appropriate public education in the least restrictive environment. So the system is set up to really have kids remain in mainstream classrooms unless there is compelling reasons for that not to be the case. And families can appeal also if there's any decision made they don't agree with, whereas in the private school world, it is just that it's private. So while there might be some laws that could be applied and interpreted that would impact decisions made in the private school, school world, there's a lot more leeway to talk about a child's fit in that school and also what the school's mission, philosophy, curriculum is about. So in my experience, when we are talking about a child who is by and large a good fit for the school, meaning that we're looking at the curriculum, we're looking at the culture of the school, and, and this is a match both for the child and the parents, particularly earlier on in the child's life, parents tend to be more involved in the school. There's a willingness to partner on the side of the school, and if parents are willing on their side to create that partnership, it more often than not goes well. Where things can get derailed is when one side feels like there isn't information being shared. So if families feel constantly blindsided, they really don't understand what the school is saying about their child. They're not seeing the same things. They don't agree with what the school is recommending. And on the school side, when they feel that what they're communicating isn't being heard by the parents. And so when that acrimony happens, it typically leads to a cycle of several meetings that tend to not go so well, where people leave those meetings feeling unheard, unappreciated feeling that their child isn't appreciated in that environment, and vice versa. School feeling, perhaps we're doing everything we can and that's not really being understood.

Sounds like a super tense situation. Do you ever, like with the families that you work with, do you go to these meetings or is it sort of like they don't necessarily want to share with the school that they're working with you? I'm not sure.

I have been asked to attend meetings in private schools by families who are coming to me as private families. And in those cases, more often than not, it's the family questioning whether it makes sense for the child to stay at the school. School and the school will often be siding with the idea that, yes, this child can stay. So it's a bit more of that consultative experience for the family.

With me, I think that it sounds like, certainly liaising between schools and parents, it must be a big part of a big part of what you do.

It can be. And I'm always open to having conversations. I feel very comfortable with educators and see educators as colleagues, and I feel certainly very comfortable guiding families and demystifying some of this. I often find that it is helpful when I was working in schools and also sitting at the. On the other side of that table. Speaking with families in private practice, I've often found that it's very helpful to. To put all the fears right out there, right on the table right away. So when I was, for instance, working in schools and there were concerns about recommendations and worries about what does it mean if you're recommending that my child get a comprehensive evaluation, I would right away explain, this is not to counsel your child out. These are not the things we're going to be doing or using this material in any way that would be harmful to, to your family, to your child. And this is not something that would be in a permanent file should they ever go to their next educational setting. Having the opportunity to demystify a bit, I have found is really, really helpful so that everybody can focus on the child. Right, here's what we're here to do. We're focusing on how do we make this a better experience.

Right? There's this whole more stressful backdrop of what does the law say and what are the protections. And as you said earlier, private schools are not bound in the same way by the public school system. And I've also seen this come up. For example, if there's bullying in a school, which can be very difficult and overlap with different types of learning differences and people who are on the autistic spectrum or, you know, what the school's handbook says versus how it's enacted, and it can quickly become very heated. So again, I imagine you must be very even keeled. And I think you mentioned your mother has a background in the law. And I think sometimes really knowing the lay of the land is probably a lot of what you offer. You know, I'm wondering, like, what, what you offer to parents, what are the top problems you see and the main things that say, listeners can gain from your experience?

So I would say that often I have situations where parents will come to me with questions about their child's learning, either because they're hearing from the school that a child isn't picking up on content, or their skills are weak and their skill gaps, or the child doesn't want to go to school at all. And that can become a problem in terms of it being calm. School refusal, what we call school refusal. So a child really struggling to get up in the morning, get out of the house, walk into the school, stay in the school once the child is at the school. So there's a garden variety as to why parents come to see me, but it's all focusing in on what's going on for the child at school or at college. And a lot of the work we do taps into executive function skill development. Executive function skills being an umbrella term for all what we call the doing we need to be able to execute in school and in life. And that includes being able to sustain attention to a task, initiate a task plan, prioritize, organize time, manage. So without that foundation of executive function skills, it's like building a house without a strong foundation, eventually it's going to fall on you. One of our particular areas of expertise is really understanding what is going on for the child. As I said, it may be that we actually aren't the next in line in helping a child. It really might be that a child needs a few steps in between. But we're there to provide the guidance in a timely way. And that's what's really key. Timely because we have so much information on the Internet now. There are so many professionals doing exactly what we do. At my education Resource center, when we got started 16 years ago, it wasn't the case. But now there are many more people in the field, whether they come from an education background or a psychology background or not. There are many people who are saying that they do executive function coaching and that they do school placement and that they do college placement. And they might get started off with mainstream population who are in general education classrooms. And then that tends to expand into the population that has ADHD and, or dyslexia and or other issues that mean they are neurodiverse learners. Being very mindful of what it is that we can provide and having boundaries surrounding that is also important to our work. We don't provide therapy, we don't provide psychopharmacological advice or consultations. And so when families come to us, they might need things that are beyond the scope of our expertise and what we can offer. But we're always looking for professionals with whom we can partner, who share our values.

Yeah, I think that's something that's become increasingly important. And at least, Grant, I know in your practice, and I see a lot of times where it would be super helpful to interface and collaborate with the other people that my patients are working with and that I think it would have this sort of. Yeah, it would just be exponentially beneficial.

Well, the whole ecosystem is not well integrated. Even parents who are affluent, very well resourced spend a lot of time just putting together what they need. And I imagine you do a lot of. Even if you don't provide the service, you connect with people and help integrate the process. But still, it feels like on a macro level, on a systemic level, there's a lack of executive function. And people can really just go from consultant to consultant, from psychiatrist and therapist, from tester to tester, until they kind of stumble into something that works. And it'd be great if we're able to skillfully put that together, because time is passing, right? Kids develop really quickly. And the other thing is like the pandemic and social media, we've talked about that with other guests, and the rising rates of mental illness in the teenage population, especially among biological females, but across the boards, and it's really quite difficult. And of course, sometimes the families that they're in have significant dysfunction, and that's really hard to address often, unless the parents are particularly open.

Absolutely. Collaboration, I would say, is the trickiest part of the work that we do because of time, because of approach. So not everybody has the same approach. There is a lot of pressure for kids to get well quickly. And I imagine you see that in the mental health field. We certainly see it in the education field. And there are people who will promise that children, adolescents, and young adults will get better within a certain time frame. And that may not be the case. And what I find is on cases where we are not doing well with the case, it really boils down to communication and expectations. And when we're talking, for instance, about executive function coaching, often we are looking at individuals who have very busy lives, both in terms of the children, adolescents, young adults whom we serve, and then also the families. And the family environment can be very busy. And so without that tight collaboration, we often can't succeed because there is the expectation of, yes, we're doing executive function coaching. And also there's the math, and also there's the reading, and also there's the writing. And also there's this big assignment that needs to get done in one day time or two days time, and it's now an emergency. So having really clear goals is something that I've tried over the years to hone in on more and more, to be able to say, okay, this is actually what we're going to be able to address. And even though I do say that specifically, sometimes it just doesn't sink in, you know, and it's. It's hard, right, because we are in a busy world. We're in a busy city. I work in New York City. I do work with clients from all over the world, but most of my clients are from New York City. And the pacing of life is very fast, Type A. And so having, right. The opportunity to really flesh things out and have the opportunity to create these interdisciplinary teams where we do have points of connection can be tricky.

And I would imagine that there's a lot that goes on also within, let's say the parents or the family unit as kids are struggling and trying to recover, you know, some level of like a well balanced life and happiness and functionality where I think that sometimes we all have these ideas of, oh, we're gonna have a kid and they're gonna go to this school and this is how it's gonna be. And it can be a little bit hard, I think, to accept when things don't go that way. So I wonder if you end up doing a lot of support around that.

Yes, there is a lot of support around that. This is a field where I really see the speed of treatment, whether it be educationally based or mental health, therapeutically based. The speed is not a friend. It really is not a friend. And I often will stop families from making quick decisions with giving them the understanding that they're going to lose so much time at the back end of all of this if they try to speed it up. Right. If it's sort of a child really needs therapeutic placement. But no, no, no, let's try all these different things when we know already what's needed. And so then six months, elapses, a year elapses, or child goes off to college, highly capable, very high iq, able to learn content, but having absolutely no life skills whatsoever. So now they're at Yale, they're flunking out. They're now 18. So families don't have access to their information. And they're getting that call from the emergency room in December. Okay, so now that entire semester is lost, now that student is back at home or hospitalized, and then back at home getting treatment, feeling really lost, Feeling like, wow, time's passing me by. My friends are going on with their lives. What am I doing? Sitting at home, going to therapy, seeing my psychiatrist. Yes, all those things are important, but not really feeling like they're in their lives. And so now we're just talking about a full year of lost tuition and lost time. And I think the lost time, and of course financially this can also be very devastating for families. But the lost time is especially devastating for students. It can really take them a bit of time, as I imagine you've seen, to get over the feelings of failure and over the fear of getting back on the saddle, so to speak, and back to their daily routines.

Yeah, I mean, the pace of life in a place like New York is really lopsided there's often not that much wisdom. A lot of times there's tremendous pressure. The parents are often very highly motivated, but they grew up in a time where they weren't as aware of feelings and in a different social media context, which really highlights the importance of paying attention to emotional and mental health. And buzzwords like resilience are helpful, but they can often be a kind of a euphemism for just, you know, be quiet and work hard. And some of the schools are so demanding, you know, in high school that what I see is that there are times when kids basically they're done by the time they get to college. And the idea of taking a gap year is often not received very well. There's kind of a track that the kids are supposed to be on. Sometimes it comes again from the parents, sometimes not. So I think there's a lot there. I have a specific question which is about educational philosophy because, you know, we looked at so many different public and private schools as New York City parents for kids with very different types of educational style and needs. And some of the schools have a much more progressive philosophy. There's this research that's often cited that doing more homework is not necessarily better. Other schools have this very traditional, like hours of homework a night. And you really need to be very, very good with time management. And also, I think, as you implied, sort of sacrifice social and emotional development. There's not as much time for socializing. And I think of like Olympic athletes who have no social life and then, you know, sometimes they kind of take a break and they go back to their lives. So I'm curious, kind of what you think about all that on a high level, but specifically how do you think about this educational philosophy? And like, what did. What do you tell parents about the amount of homework and optimal learning, which I know varies from kid to kid, but.

Well, that's just the key. It does vary from kid to kid. And that's where we need to pay a lot of attention, where I believe the focus should go to when we're talking about school and college placement. So obviously when kids are three or four, it's a little bit harder to determine are they going to do well on a marathon style kind of curriculum? Are they going to do better with less homework, with more homework, are they. How is that going to affect their ability to partake in extracurricular activities, to partake in play dates earlier on and then later on again back to the extracurricular activities idea? So that is very much child specific schools. Twenty Years ago, there was an understanding that there were specific schools for specific learners and by and large people stuck to that. So if a child wasn't a good fit for that particular school, there was often the understanding, okay, we're going elsewhere, or the school would make modifications that basically change the school's program to enable that student to stay on. But the issue now is that being average is offensive, right? Let's just put it out there. It's offensive to say your kid's average. Your kid's brilliant and is dyslexic. Great. Your kid's brilliant and has adhd. Great. Your kid, kid is average and would be doing perfectly fine in a different school setting. Now we've got a big problem, right? And so I think this idea, I mean, there's a reason why the bell curve exists, but we seem to ignore that. Right. We know 50% of the population is supposed to be smack in the middle of that bell curve.

Yep. There's also regression to the mean.

Right.

But we parents, you know, we don't.

Want to hear that. And I think that there's always this chase. I mean, I had it growing up with Japan is going to take over. So everybody should be learning Japanese. Now it became everybody should be learning Mandarin, right? And there's always this worry of becoming obsolete. And yet we somehow as humans have managed to, to stick around because clearly we, we can adapt, right? So now the big fear is AI AI is going to take over every job and you know, we're just going to be sitting at home, I don't know, doing what, Right. Even if we have the financial resources. So I think this fear based approach is really something to look at head on. Because when we as adults have a fear based approach and the conversation becomes fear based, what it does is that it kills curiosity in kids, it kills the excitement for what could the future hold and what is it that I would want to explore and see if I enjoy it? Right. So the point is your kid picked up a baseball bat and now is going to become a superstar in baseball because they express interest in going a little league. Right. But this, but this kind of overzealousness as to what people need to become is actually derailing to people becoming.

Yeah, I like to call it parenting as blood sport, I think is maybe a little too gruesome. But I, I do think in some ways we've been programmed to think that being average or having this sort of normal range of interests. Right. That there's something wrong with it and that we all need to Be hyper specialized and that's the only way to survive. Whereas from my perspective, I see that the happiest people are those who package for package, got most of what they wanted. You know, they have a good social life or they have, you know, healthy relationships and maybe they went to fancy schools or they have a big job. But it's usually not the people who have had a sort of overwhelming amount of success in one specific area. Because that can be very isolating and hard to, hard to manage later in life, I think, because it sort of skews. It pulls them into this world of. That's very extreme.

Yeah. Like psychodynamically. I think a lot of times it's a problem of sense of self or you know, the catch, sort of catchy word nowadays is narcissism is sort of a healthy sense of self. And I think a lot of times, you know, if you look at the family history and from a therapist's point of view, you start to see that the family really may have fled a very terrible situation. There was a lot of adversity in the past. The second generation becomes very, very motivated, even at the expense of, you know, balance and well being. And then they pass on this philosophy to their children and. But their children are not growing up in the same environment. They're growing up in an environment that is much more forgiving, is much softer. And the kids end up with something like a mixed message. They need to survive and work hard, but it doesn't fit with what they're seeing around them. And like you said, that's something maybe more for the therapy piece, but I'm sure that's on your mind as you're working with families. The artificial intelligence piece I think is really important. And there's a big question mark about how do you equip your kids essentially to be extremely like. What's the word? Kind of nimble or agile in order to be adaptive. And the way I kind of think about it is, right, it's an unfolding story. What AI means for humanity. But whatever AI doesn't do, that's what is going to be human by definition.

Absolutely, I agree with you. Again, back to the idea of retaining that curiosity and excitement approaching conversations at the dinner table, I think is really important. It's really meaningful to have that connection in that time. Often the simple things that don't cost anything are the most impactful on a child's development, on a child's healthy development. But of course that is not marketable. Right. So there's a Lot of marketing surrounding what to do as parents. And often it can be fear based. You're missing out. If you are not having your child tutored for the SAT by the time they're five, you know, you really miss the boat. You're missing out. You know, there's always a preparing right sense of you are a great parent if you are preparing your child. And it's always about the future, that somehow they are missing out if they are not thinking ahead and putting in place services early on to avoid whatever discomfort might come up in the future. And so what we do is we basically take development, throw it out the window. Right. We don't pay attention at all to what developmental expectations should be.

Yeah, you can't speed up development. You can create an optimal environment in which kids can flourish. You can remove obstacles to development. But if you try to force development along, it will impede development for sure. Sometimes things come to me in the form of a cartoon or a joke. And so as you were talking, I imagined a New Yorker cartoon of a child being born and the nurse is having the parents complete the birth certificate and in addition to the name they want to write down what college they'll be attending.

And all that said, I do believe in competition. I do believe in kids having access to their dreams and I do believe in kids being motivated to and exposed to learn to go for the most competitive programs if that's what they are going to do. You know, all those things I really believe in, I do come from a family that cared a lot about education. As I mentioned, going to college was absolutely a, you know, it wasn't a choice, it was what we were doing and suddenly certainly getting a master's as well as part of the conversation, if not moving on to a PhD. So I grew up certainly with a lot of expectations and I don't think those expectations were necessarily bad. I think where it becomes bad is when the messaging is so, so much about fear and that that then tips into other issues that didn't need to be there, like anxiety, depression. I mean, and ironically, if we think about it, we are now living longer and longer. So I don't know if my kid now is slated to live into her hundreds. I don't know. Right. But it's ironic that we are putting so much pressure to speed up development and then what are they supposed to be doing at 30, 40, 50 if they've already covered, you'll have a second.

Or third career kind of AI, depending. I think the existential piece of it is important. Lifespan and mortality. I also remember I did an exchange program in high school. I was living in Cachills do Sul for a summer when I was 15, which is near Sao Paulo. And it was great. I had so much fun. And then about halfway through the summer, the other kids disappeared, and they all had to take state exams. And basically their whole fate hinged on their score on this one exam. So the cultural piece is really important as well.

Right. So, Grant, I actually happened to be originally from Brazil. I was raised in Sao Paulo for the first almost 12 years of my life. And what you're referring to is the university system. So that the idea in this system is that kids, once they finish high school, they take exams, and that will determine where they go to college. So grades won't matter, teacher recommendations won't matter. It all hinges on this very big test, which takes multiple days to do. And there are problems in that system, but the healthy component to that system is that in terms of the high school experience, there's a lot of socialization. Typically, there's a lot of emphasis on, yes, learning. I mean, you have to really be a generalist to be able to take these exams and pass them. But the emphasis is not an obsession on grades. And so it is a culture that prizes socialization above all else.

Yeah, I'll tell you, it was really boring for me after everyone stopped hanging out.

Sure. I'm sure. I'm sure it was. Right. And it gave you that direct experience of what it is when all the focus, let's say if a student, all their focus is on studying. Right. And so you had a little bit of that taste of what not having that social contact meant. And I mean, we could do a whole podcast just on social contact. Right. Alone. And what does it mean from day one of life? But that is really the key. You know, are kids connected? Do they feel connected at home? Do they feel connected to their peers? Do they feel connected to their teachers? We can rah, rah community and conversations about community all we want, but if the kids don't feel connected, nothing else will work.

I think that's such a good point and something that is unfortunately overlooked. Right. In a lot of this.

Well, they find online community, and then it goes sideways.

Right, right. And, well, I think it also can go sideways because it is completely, I would say, unmonitored for the most part, and that's part of the goal of it. But it can be constant. Whereas I think having, you know, a progression of social interactions that become, you know, first supervised and then less Supervised, as, you know, kids grow up is important. And I think that sort of these online forums sometimes don't allow for that.

Right. There's definitely healthy online community. But. Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

No, I was just going to mention, Farrah, that back to your earlier point about individuals you see who are happiest having had multiple experiences that were pleasurable, where they felt they succeeded, as opposed to being an expert and focused only and getting the positive feedback only in one particular area. This takes time. It takes time for kids to develop relationships. It takes time for certain kids. And of course, you know, we have to bring temperament and everybody's different in who what their strengths and relative weaknesses will be and what their temperament is about. But having opportunities to develop a life takes, takes time. And often it is about baby steps, whether it be in academic work. So we will talk a lot about celebrating those successes with academic work. So when we have a student who's really vulnerable and they're coming in, they feel deflated, they feel. Feel like nothing's going to work for me. It is about getting them back in immediately into something that they find purposeful, that they can connect with and that they can see there's a win here, whether it's they passed a quiz. Right. But often what we find is that those celebrations aren't happening because there's so much worry about the future and worry about the big picture and jumping into what's going to happen a year from now, two years from now, five years from now. Right. And really getting people to stay in the moment is also part of our work.

Yeah. As you said, fear is a problem. And among other things, fear shuts down executive function and skews what people pay attention to. And what I often see in young adults is that they never learned that it's okay to fail. And I know that's a cliche, but it's really true. In order to succeed, you have to fail up or forward.

Well, it's that failure isn't celebrated ever. Right. And often failure is celebrated when a person's able to talk about their success story and then everybody enjoys that. Everybody wants to listen to that story, but nobody really wants to hear the story of the person who feels really down about what they haven't done well or what they feel they haven't done well. And I think there is a lot of pressure in our society to showcase our strengths, showcase our brilliance. It's not about talking about vulnerability. Yes, there are researchers, as we know, Renee Brown being one of them, who talk at great length about Vulnerability. And it sounds great, but the actual living it out is very difficult and it's very difficult as a parent to manage it. And I speak from a parent's perspective. You know, when my teen comes home and she feels really deflated and really worried and panicked over whatever it may be, whether it be academic or social, it is very hard to know what to do next because I find there isn't a community around me that I can actually be vulnerable with. That I can actually call up and say, you know, this is what's going on for my team, what's going on for yours. Right.

There's a real risk of inauthenticity where vulnerability is kind of commodified and celebrated and you've kind of earned your vulnerability badge. But it doesn't really, you don't really learn from it in that way that's authentic.

Right. And part of growing up is, I believe, facing at times discomfort. That is part of development. Right. That life isn't always comfortable, it's not always great, we're not always happy. And back to the whole notion of marketing, that's not really marketable. Right. That's not really selling a product. So if we can sell a service or a product that will promise a certain expected outcome, obviously that is much better. Right. Financially speaking.

Yeah, I think there is a market for that, but it's not the stereotypical urban high achiever market.

Yeah, I don't, and I don't know that people necessarily want to see themselves as on board with the fact that, oh, adolescence is going to be horrible and I'm not going to be able to do anything to stop it. Even though I will say like educators and the people at my kids schools have been great and just saying like this is middle school and it's miserable. Don't you remember? Like. Oh yeah, I do remember. But in that moment, I think seeing, you know, anyone have a hard time, especially when it's our kids, it's not desirable. But I also don't want to send the message that it has to be all happiness all the time because I know that's not reality and probably just going to alienate them even more. You know, I think joining and supporting in that moment is probably what they need.

Go, go ahead.

No, I was just going to say when we work with kids or students in any capacity with one to one academic support, it is about sticking it out often. And the cases that we find the most success with are cases where they're not linear necessarily. It may be that the case starts and the student does really well and responds really well, whether it's to executive function coaching or academic intervention, let's say for dyslexia with OG tutoring or content support. But they are also human. And there are periods of time where there might be fatigue, there might be different things at play in that particular day. They're not as focused for their sessions, or they start to hide as to what's really going on at school. And then the outcome of that may be a low grade, it may be not such a positive report card. And often the reaction is anger, right? Often the reaction is, oh my gosh, who dropped the ball? What is it that we didn't do? As opposed to, hey, let's use this as a learning opportunity. What do we do next? And how do we help kids problem solve so that they can become confident with the idea that they can talk to the adults in their lives and say, I'm having a really bad day and I'm really not able to focus and I'm really not able to keep it together with all these different things that are going on in my week. Right? And let's stop there and how do we problem solve from there?

Like you said, it's hard to language and communicate these things that are not so what's the word? You know, they don't appeal to people's vanity, but the underlying emotion, you know, with the anger you're describing and the kind of, like a lot of times externalizing, where did the scale school go wrong? Or how come you didn't do better? Or where did we fail? There's a sense of shame, you know, underneath it, especially in an environment that is so demanding and that there isn't room for these dialogues that you're so courageously bringing up today.

And I believe that we can get there. I believe that if there are enough professionals who stay confident with this idea that we can have these difficult conversations, we can survive them together. I know for myself as a professional that there are very few cases I will say I can no longer work on this case. Very, very few. I could probably count on fingers of one hand in 25 years that I've been in the field of education that I have said I can't continue because I'm not afraid of the hard conversations. I'm not afraid of the anger. And that can come up when kids are not performing as we expect them to. Understanding, again, development is rarely linear. And that's actually what makes us, in my belief, interesting that in the not being linear, sometimes, you know, it can feel like, oh, wow, this kid's really veering off path here. They might find something, you know, as they veer off that path. That's so interesting. Right. That completely gives them purpose and a drive to get up in the morning and do things.

Well, I'm thinking of some research on giftedness where the personality trait most highly correlated with giftedness is openness to experience. And that capacity to tolerate. Keats called it negative capability. To tolerate uncertainty and to explore. Right. And then find something that works is so important. And to deal with the disappointment and to hold all that tension and uncertainty. It sounds like you're onto something.

Yeah, yeah, I know. I'm just trying to be mindful of everyone's time here that we have to wrap soon. But, Sharon, where can people learn more about you? Where can they find you if they want to work with you or hear more about what you're doing?

Okay, so you can look me up. Sharon Thomas. My education. You will see that I've done quite a bit of public speaking. I've done quite a few webinars. I've presented at schools. I've also worked directly with schools, and there's some information online about that. And of course, our website, myeducation.com will be the most direct way of getting our phone number, of getting our info@my education.com for emails. And we are always happy to hear from families. Even if ultimately a family isn't working with us, we're always happy to send them in the direction that we think would be most helpful. So please never hesitate to reach out. I certainly will not expect anybody to use any of our services. I truly do this because it's exciting to see how being on a path that makes sense for a kid and a family is truly transformative. And we've heard many of those stories over the years, which is what keeps us doing what we do.

And that's Maya. M A I a.

That's right.

M A I A. I gave my daughter a spelling of her name so that she would always have to tell people how to spell it.

Apparently, we did that with our kids, too. We should check in on that later. Thank you for your generosity today.

Thank you.

Thank you for your time and thank you for having me on your podcast. This was a lot of fun.

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