533. 20 Years Later: My Friend From Acting School Wrote the Book I Didn't Know I Needed

I am very strangely nervous to be talking to you because it's you and because you know me and because you'll be reading this differently than everybody else. That is very strange for me.

Hi everyone, it's Hadar. Thank you so much for joining me. Today you get to sit in a conversation that I am having with an old friend of mine who went to acting school with me years ago in New York when I was In my 20s. This week, her book This Changes Everything is being published, and you get to listen to us talk about our lives back in New York because this book depicts the story of Ellie, who leaves Vancouver to study acting in New York City and takes you through her entire journey in the States, going from New York to LA, going through relationships and work and dreams and realizing that what you had hoped for yourself is not necessarily what you need or who you are and discovering yourself through that journey. It's such a beautifully written book. And after I had read it, I was like, I have to get you on my channel to talk about this and to share your experience writing it. And also to kind of like gossip about all the things that we remember from acting school. So we had this conversation, and today you're gonna get to listen to it. So let's go ahead and listen to my conversation with Danielle McKechnie, the author of This Changes Everything. What is it that you remember about me?

Okay, I'm so glad you just said that because I was gonna interrupt you and tell you that you shaped me. And that you, like, truly, I can name on one hand, one hand, people in my life that have come into my life and changed me. And that's a lot of what this book is. It dives into that. And I don't know if when you're reading it, if you see it, but you are very much alive in this book.

First of all, I'm very moved. And I feel that it's Completely mutual, because when I think of the moments when I felt safe and I felt fully understood and like, like, yeah, belonging when I was around you.

That's how I felt. That's how I felt too, Hadar. It was, it was a very strange sensation for me because when I, when I entered Circle in the Square, I was very certain of who I was. As is the character of Ellie. I was very, very certain of who I was, where I was going to go, what was going to happen in my life, who were going to be in my life, who I would end up with. That was defined. That was a part of my, like, core identity. And then there are a couple of people at that, at that school, in that environment, that made me be like, I had no idea that that's who I am. And that was you.

I have to tell you, like, when I think about my first days at Circle in the Square, which is the school that we went to, and I remember us sitting in the lobby. I vividly remember seeing you and one more person, Ryan Kay, right? Like walking around between people. We were like sitting on the floor. On the floor. Specifically you in the lobby.

On the floor, girl.

Just like you. Nothing has changed for you, clearly. Clearly I like the floor. No, but listen, you were like skipping around between people.

Oh, God.

And you were so much in your element, like in the most positive way I could say.

Oh, that's amazing.

But okay, wait, wait. Like, I've never met someone so funny and so immediate and so talented and like ever— and you were so connected to your emotions. And even though you felt like you were faking it transitioning, you were still learning, but still very, very centered. And for me, that was an example of how connected you could be to yourself. And that was for me like something to look up to and be like, this is how I want to feel. Now I know, I get it, we all had to put on a mask.

Yeah.

When we were, when we were in that room. But also when you and I were together, there was like this sense of ease in it.

Yeah, it was different.

And, and for me, like, especially English being my second language and always feeling like I had to prove myself, I never felt like I needed to prove myself or felt less than around you ever, ever. So you always had that inclusive, uh, feeling, or you gave me that inclusive feeling. But at the same time, like, it was You know, like, I want to feel like that in English, just like, just the way Danielle is right now.

Oh my goodness.

Yeah. So, so we— I— you've definitely influenced me and, and, and kind of like how I, how I see myself and what it means to be in your element, because I feel like you've always encapsulated that. This is going to be published this week. And this is your first— I mean, when this video is released, maybe people might watch it a year later, but September 8th, uh, 2026. This is your first adult novel that you've written. You've written books before.

Mm-hmm. I have.

Um, so I want to ask everything. Like, I want you to tell me everything about writing this book, but I'm going to try to be specific and be like, why did you need to write this Why now? And how was it? How was the journey of writing it for you?

It was a long journey. I started writing this character first in 2010, the character of Ellie. And it was a very— that was just so long ago. I was still in the thick of things for myself in my personal life and in my career and in the choices that I had made. And I was really sitting in a lot of regret at that time.

Mm-hmm.

And I had a difficult moment in my life where I lost my job. I ended up getting— I had like a really bad experience. And I didn't know quite what to do. I didn't lose my job. I quit my job. And I didn't know quite what to do. And I just— I cried a lot, and then I started writing.

Yes.

And when I was writing, I started laughing. And so, I felt like I could find a source of happiness through the pain that I was going through at the time. And so, I started writing this book a long time ago, and then, You know, I got an agent, we went through the process. It was all very wild because I was like, I can't, I can't write a book. At that, at that time in my life, I had been writing a lot of scripts and I had been working in production and in film and television, and I was working behind the scenes, and I was really trying to hustle on the side. And I think that the reason why that was happening was because I couldn't, I couldn't live out the dream of writing as my profession because I had to get my visa and I was constantly fighting for my visa and my status in the States.

In the United States, just for clarity, because you're originally from Canada.

Yeah.

And you had lived back then in the States.

Yes.

Yes.

I lived back then in Los Angeles and everything I did at the time— again, this was a long time ago, but everything I did was in order to keep my status. And in order to keep my status, that was the only way that I could continue to pursue my dreams, in my opinion. I didn't believe at the time that I could do that anywhere else.

What was your dream back then?

I wanted to write. I mean, I wanted to act, as you know, um, but my dream was to write for film and television. So I was— yeah, so I was working behind the scenes there, and I was writing scripts, pilots, Yeah, I was doing— I was trying to do literally everything. Podcasts. I was trying to write. I was a ghost dater. I was writing people's online dating profiles for them before, like, it turned into, like, Hinge, where it's like pictures and stuff like that. But like way back then when it was like Match.com, I would interview people and I would try to help them pluck out the most amount of personality that I could to help them.

That's such a cool job.

To write their— yes. And When I started focusing on the original version of this book, I got an agent. We went out to like 19 publishers. We got rejected by everybody. But then like a random year later, I would get an email from somebody from MGM and they would be like, I read your book. And I was like, what book? It was like, it was that sort of thing. It kept on coming up like this original book and this original character of Ellie kept on coming back into my life. Whether I meant for her to come back or not, just over and over and over again. So it was optioned for pilots multiple times. I was constantly— I started pitching it as, yeah, many different versions of this character. And then it stalled out in and around 2020, and then I moved back to Canada, and then I, you know, sort of resumed life. And when I resumed life again, and then I kind of got kicked again by losing another job, I started writing. I started going back to my diaries because I used to write. I have a lot of diaries. I've kept everything. Like, I have everything. And I went back and I started using my diaries as writing prompts. And so I would look at a diary and I'd be like, all right, well, what can I write about this? To just try and get some juices going. And when I— Super creative. Yeah. Yeah, it was, you know, like, honestly, stuff like that feels like it's from The Artist's Way, which is so strange.

You know what I mean?

Like, you have all of these things that dip back into who you used to be at this person from Circle and Square. And I'm like, well, maybe I can figure out what am I going to do on this Monday? I'm going to go into a diary and then pull out this section and see if I can get into something, see if I can feel something. And I did. And I, and I went back to a time where I was 12 and I went to the golf club a lot. I did that when I was young a lot. That was where I grew up. That was where I grew up. Uh, that's where I fell in love for the first time. That's all of that, you know.

We hear all about it in the book.

You hear all about it. But I started writing about this moment that I had with this boy where I forgot to put on my training bra. And the day before I was wearing a training bra. And then the next day I went to the golf club and I forgot because not used to wearing, putting on a bra. And I was so deeply in my head because I ran into the boy that I was like crazy about. And I was like, oh, my boobs are everywhere. I was like, I was convinced that my little 12-year-old boobs.

We're everywhere.

So I started writing this scene and it made me laugh because that's very similar to how that happened, this meet cute with these 2 characters, Ellie and Rory. It's very similar to how that happened. And when I sort of discovered Rory as a child, Rory as a 12-year-old who's the love interest of the book, That was when I realized the story of Ellie started in my past. And so I went back to the book that I started in 2010, and I, and I rewrote it with the perspective of these 2 characters from when they were 12, and then how they developed from there. And that's where Rory came from. So, like, all of the original characters were gone. And then it was like, well, I guess I'm writing about this experience in my life and developing that character into, you know, who he becomes.

The book starts the day before you leave Vancouver to New York when you were 20, right?

Yep.

Yeah. No, but you've made the big decision to leave your family, to leave your friends, to leave your love behind and start, in a way, a completely new life, even though it's I mean, what is it, like 6 hours away? It's still, it's a lot. It was, it was a big move for someone. I think you were the only one leaving your friends group at that age for, to go study in the US or abroad. What made you decide that apart from wanting to be an actress and kind of like that dream of living in the US? But yeah, what was it for you that kind of like pushed you to make that move? That required a lot of courage. And what did you feel like you left behind? And what did you discover?

Gosh. So I feel like what, what led me to going, I don't know. I, that's just, that's just a ridiculous thing to say, but I don't know. I just knew that I needed to go. I needed to go. I had decided it. about myself. I was not, I was not going to live the life that I was seeing happening. Do you know what I mean? And that's not to say I had a terrible life. I had a beautiful, like a beautiful life, like a wonderful, a wonderful, wonderful life and a wonderful childhood and a wonderful family. But there was just something that was just digging in of like, ah, I got to get out. It was, it was that. And what I wanted to leave behind was Vancouver Danielle.

Mm-hmm.

I wanted her to be somewhere else. I was ready for her to go. And I wanted to see who I could be as New York Danielle, because I felt like I couldn't become the person I pretended. And I say this in the book, I feel like I was always pretending to be somebody here. that I wanted to be, and I couldn't get there. I couldn't figure it out. I couldn't figure out a way to become the person that I wanted to be in the position that I was in. And so for me, it was like, well, I have to, I have to actually make the steps to do it and go. And so, yeah, I was trying, I was trying to leave my past behind. And I, and I think the thing that is where the book comes from is that That's impossible, you know? And I— and she's so determined to prove herself, whatever that means, following this elusive dream. She says it's chasing dragons, but— and I like to say it where it's like she's the dragon that she's trying to chase, and she can't find her way through it.

Hmm.

I think I wanted to leave A feeling of not being the person I wanted to be. It's just all— it ultimately was all like driven by feelings, as is a lot of things in my life, which isn't necessarily healthy. It's not the right choice of action most of the time, but that was how I lived through my 20s. What about you?

I feel same, because for me it was also like, it was just Like, there was such conviction around— it's so clear that my identity is connected to living in New York and being an actress, right? Like, for me, there was no question about it. Um, so I had lived my life leading up to that because I, I had lived in New York for, for 2 years before starting school, but You know, like the reason for moving to New York in the first place was the same. I was like, I don't, I don't know who I am fully, or I feel like there are things about me that cannot exist in this environment. I, you know, like I don't know what it was because I, I, you know, I had such a great family and supportive family and I have beautiful friends. So when you look back, you're like, but it's not like you had to Escape it, right?

Exactly, exactly.

Still, like, something is that, like, I just wanted to expand and I wanted to not be known, to reinvent myself so that, like, I could do it at a place that where no one knows me.

But Hadar, how did— so if you were there for 2 years before and then you went to school, what was that transition of, of New York and then school New York?

No, but I like, I had a really horrible experience before that because I was in New York. Then I got accepted to Circle. I went back to get my student visa. I didn't get it, which, by the way, you and Ryan, friends that we had back like the year that I was in.

Yeah.

Was kind of like my reason for why that had happened, because I didn't get the visa. For that year.

Oh, right, this is familiar. This is coming back to me.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And then I had to wait an entire year to apply again. So I had to kind of like leave New York for a year. I waited a year, I applied again, I got accepted. And for me, like, that was the most devastating thing that had ever happened to me, like, not being able to get the visa right away. But I mean, I met my closest friends back home during that time that are still my best friends till this day. So that, and then I got to meet you guys and be your friend. And like, I can't imagine my, like, my life in, in New York or in Circle without having you around or the other, or our other friends. So everything happens for a reason. Wow. Yeah. This is why I always say, like, when things get all messed up, you're like, mm-mm, you just don't know the full story just yet.

Yeah, yeah, I remember that.

So for me, it was almost like I was starting fresh.

Wow.

So same experience, but I, I had known New York from before, so it was— that was like a little different. But going to acting school, man, like, do you—

like, I feel like— Weird, right?

Wow. What a trip. People punching the walls.

Oh my God, I think about that all the time. I think about people punching the walls to get into character. All the time.

It's got like, but it was like always boys, right? Like, I don't know what to do with my emotions, so let me punch the wall. Not that I like— I, I fully respect that. If you need to punch a wall, you go ahead and punch the wall. Yeah, but there are more ways. Um, what's like the most—

Hadar, I'm so sorry. I feel like this is a simulation moment because I was thinking about that yesterday, and I was thinking about— I was thinking about you saying something about circle and then me being like, I'm like, is it gonna be too much if I make a comment about like, why did everybody punch the wall?

Okay, for context, we had a, uh, like one of the classrooms, there was a hole in the wall. Yeah.

Right there, remember?

For, for a few weeks.

Yes.

Because someone punched it.

Um, It's very intense.

Yeah, we had a scene study class with, um, with Alan, and you had to tell a personal story before. By the way, I remember your personal stories and like moments before like the most. Like, it was like, it was always so— yeah.

She lived in her feelings, folks. Yeah, she lived in her feelings. I was all red. I'm still red. Look at how red I am. The soft focus is not helping.

Feeling.

I just feel like I need to say that the soft focus was a complete accident. I did not mean to make myself look like Barbara Walters on here, but you know.

You look beautiful. Okay. Acting school. How did it help you with building, creating that identity for yourself? And how do you like, and how do you, how were you able to portray that in the book as well? How was I able to build that identity? How has acting helped you?

Oh, well, in terms of character development, it's crazy how the idea of objective and super objective is just so intensely relevant for writing.

You know, if there's— Can you explain that, like what that means for people who don't know what objective and super objective? Yeah.

So, a character in every scene has a purpose in the scene. What do they want in the scene? And then that's that small sliver, that small moment. But then what's their overarching super objective of where they're trying to get from beginning to end in terms of the actual story? So, I feel like a perfect example is— what was that movie? One Battle After Another, right?

Yeah.

Did you watch— did you see that movie, One Battle After Another?

No.

There's an entire sequence in that where Leonardo DiCaprio is trying to charge his phone. That's it. That's the only thing he needs to do to get in touch with his— with somebody to try and get his daughter. And for 20 minutes, the only thing he cares about— you know what the super objective is, it's for his daughter— but for 20 solid minutes, the only thing he cares about is charging his phone. And there was something about that that was just so deeply realistic for me. And I think that that happens in every single— in every single scene you write. If a character doesn't have a reason for being in it, then get them out.

Mm.

And as somebody that's writing rather than acting, you have the ability to get them out. Do you know what I mean? So, It's just for— it's for every character. It's for the main characters and it's for the side characters. Why are they in that scene in that moment? What do they need? Marty Supreme randomly did the exact— like, not randomly, but Marty Supreme did the exact same thing where every character had a backstory, every per— every character had a purpose for the scene. And I think that I learned that definitely in theater school. And then you can see it too, because I worked behind the scenes. I worked in film and television, so I was constantly reading scripts. And that was a part of my job, was doing something called coverage. And coverage is when you're reading scripts for your bosses. I worked for producers and you're— you completely dissect the script. You as the assistant or whatever your job is at that company, you are kind of like the first point of contact.

Oh, that's a big job.

Yeah, you're the first. Like, assistants are like— assistants run Hollywood. I don't think people realize that, but they run and rule Hollywood. They give you access if they like you or if they don't. They'll drop you from the call sheet if they— you know what I mean? And it's like, oh, I didn't call back. Like, the power that assistants do have is wild.

God.

But yeah, you're the first point of contact with the script and you decide whether or not you want to pass it on to the next because you're the one that's writing coverage and you write pass or fail. Like, That's, that's what you do. And so, like, it's very— but because you're constantly reading, you can see when something is just like, this hasn't hooked me. You know it instantly. It's like an actor. An actor walks into the room, you know in a second whether or not they're right. And it's not because they're good or bad. It has nothing to do with talent most of the time. It's circumstance. It's what's the producer or director looking for? What's the studio looking for? Who's financing it? Like, all of these things are— All of these things matter across the board. Who's the audience? Who's the demo? Like, it's literally everything. So, the person that steps in, you can tell within seconds if they have one leg up. And then, if they're good, they've got another leg up. Do you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

Then, if they know somebody, if they've got— how did they get into the room in the first place? There's another leg up. So, all of these things In theater school, I didn't know, and then I learned in production and film. So, I was able to take the writing notes of character development, but then also figuring out, like, okay, well, how do I get books made? How do I get stories made? How do I tell stories through my film and TV, the development world too? I was able to sort of take in everything, luckily.

Yeah.

I hope.

Such a good skill to have.

We'll see.

And look at you now. No, well—

Well, who knows?

Well, and this is where I want to go and ask you about, because I was thinking of the two of us, right? Sitting there at, in, in, in the lobby at Circle.

On the floor.

And on the floor, of course, envisioning life and having dreams. And here we are, like, so freaking crazy. What was it, like 25 years later?

Hadar, what you have done with your career. Is absolute— like, you know this, it's one of one. Like, you are one of one.

I would have never in my life have imagined that this is what I would be doing, ever, right? And I'm so grateful. Like, I love every minute. And also acting school and the experiences that I've had, like, all of that, you know, has led me to doing what I'm doing today. But Do you remember, and I wanna ask you because like you also had, you know, you had one vision and then here, here you are, life happens, and then you have all these crazy, incredible, unbelievable experiences, right? For you.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, like, and you've written books and you have such a beautiful family and a successful career. And like, my question, first of all, would you have, like, what do you think our younger selves would have said about who we are today?

Oh, well, gosh. Again, like, I'm looking at you here, Hadar, and it's like, it's top tier. It's incredible.

Thank you.

It's incredible. I think I will always suffer from a version of imposter syndrome. I think at the core of Ellie is also at the core of me, where the question of career-wise, when am I going to be happy, is— I still, I don't know how to answer that. I don't know how to answer that. Which is why when I left Los Angeles, that was just so identity-crushing for me.

Yeah.

Because that was a part of it. And, and I think if— I would like to think if I was 12 at the golf club, you know, convinced I was going to be marrying Elijah Wood and being an actor, I think that I would be pretty shocked. I think if I was at— I'd like to think that if I was at circle in the square and to know that I've continued, albeit a pivot, but I've continued. I would like to think that I would be proud of myself.

Yeah.

And then I can even go to my 20s in Los Angeles, going through some stuff. I, I, to know that I'm still I'm still trying. That's where I really align with Ellie. I'd like to think that I'm proud of myself. Do you know, I would like to imagine that, but that's really hard for me to imagine because I have, I have an imposter syndrome, even though I'm doing well. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

It's very strange. Like, my husband has to tell me on a regular basis, he's like, you know, you're successful, right? And I'm like, I just don't know. I just don't know.

You've written this incredible book. And not just that, like the stories and the characters, it's just like also the creativity and the art in how you build up a sentence and how you phrase it and the metaphors and the word choice. For me, it's not just to read it to get the plot, it's really to enjoy the writing. And this is why I'm like, you're not—

Thank you.

Reading the audiobook, unfortunately.

I am hoping for it.

They will ask like a private version of you reading, you know, like a small part of it.

But— We don't need to hear it. We don't need to hear me go through some of those scenes. Yeah.

But I want, like, you know, our— this conversation reminded me of something that could be also the source of this experience, right? Like the, the not good enough. And, and I've done— listen, like, I have done so much personal work.

Yeah.

Not to feel that. And I felt devastated when I had to leave New York. Like, it was— it took me a year and a half to recover because it was just that. It was like losing the dream, the identity. Like, everything was broken.

Uh, who am I?

What am I gonna do with my life? And I started doing all these weird things. Like, I was managing a restaurant, and all of a sudden I was like, yeah, I'm just gonna be managing restaurants for the rest of my life. I like it, you know? Yeah, yeah. And, um, Um, I was like babysitting and I was doing like all these weird things, which like you never know where life is going to lead you to.

I know, it's so true.

And it's hard to, to acknowledge it.

Yeah.

Um, for you when you say like you're successful but it's hard for you, you still feel like an imposter. And you know, you know what, what I think really messed us up When we were in acting school, we had to read this book called Letters to a Young Poet.

Oh my God, do I pull it out from my bookshelf? I have that right here.

The root of all evil. I'll tell you why it's such a beautiful— like, I was, I was reading it back to back, and I was like— and I read it like 5 times in a week because it's so good. And it was like exactly the experience that I wanted to have. But it was so deterministic, like it was so awful in that sense, because I remember one thing so clearly, and I don't remember a lot of things from back then, but it said, if you can imagine yourself— so Letters to a Young Poet is, um, it's by Rilke, right? Like, am I—

yeah, well done.

Yeah, I'm like, wait, did I get it wrong? Rilke, who was a poet writing letters—

the world right there, Hadar.

Yeah. So he's writing to a young poet about poetry and about, like, you know, fulfilling your passion in life and about art. And he said there, if you can envision yourself doing anything but writing poetry— no, he said—

wait, what did he say? No, I know, it was, it was that. If you can do— if you can see yourself doing anything else, anything else, then don't do this.

And don't do this. This is not for you.

And I've heard that elsewhere too. Like, that's one of these running themes of like, if you can do anything else, give it up.

Which is such a horrible piece of advice. Yeah. It is so like not reasonable. And I think that we had internalized it. It's kind of like it's either this or nothing. And then if we like, we have committed ourselves to doing that, right? And then anything else feels like a failure or like, you know, like We're a fraud and we're not doing the thing and how is it? And like, we might as well die if we don't do that thing. And then—

I'm telling you, yeah, absolutely. This is the whole— that's the whole purpose of the book for me. Of course, there's the romance and there's all of that. The entire purpose of the book is learning how to be okay with the decisions of your past pivoting, and becoming someone new again.

It's this—

she's constantly being reborn, right?

Mm-hmm.

She's reborn, and she's— she is who she is in Vancouver. That's who she is. It's cemented in place. She changes when she moves to New York. That's who she is. That's cemented in place. But then there's something that keeps on pushing her through, and she can't help but try something else. So then she goes to LA because she can't fulfill something inside her, right? It's a constant need to fulfill this thing inside her. And then to come to the moment of, like, Oh, I'm full is a very difficult thing, I think, for a lot of people. And I'm full not getting what I thought I was gonna get. That's everything for me because that's the shift in identity, right? And I feel like a lot of people go through that, different transitions in their life. I went through it multiple times. I wrote a book about it, right?

Like, this is—

I hope that that's relatable. And I find it interesting because when I first was pitching the book around, as it is, this version, I did have some comments in return because it was a shocking moment for me when people found— were interested in the book. Because I had been writing my whole— my entire career, constantly pitching, so close so many times, so close so many times.

Mm-hmm.

For books, for scripts, for everything, right? And When this happened, and I would get a note of, I really like the story, I don't see why Ben is necessary. And I'm like, because it's over a 20-year— it's the story of a 20-year span of one character. And to me, I recognize that a love triangle isn't a beloved trope. It's not. And I also don't look at this book as a love triangle.

at all.

And I find that a lot of people are— it's, it's been that a lot of people are seeing it that way, and I don't see it that way. I don't see that she's choosing between these 2 men. I see, I see she's choosing between which person she wants to be, like the version of herself that she wants to be, right? And I, and I think that that comes full circle when, when, when she realizes kind of who she is, and it just sort of takes her a long time to get there.

I think I wrote this one line that I saw I had finally made it to my next tomorrow. For the rest of your life, you're living in the after. So tell me about this moment, which is really like what you are talking about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's it. The story originally was titled The Next Tomorrow. That was the original title for this. It was called The Next Tomorrow. And it's, it's essentially about coming to terms with who you are, who you are as a person, and not necessarily needing, needing to be something that you're, that you're not. You know what I mean?

This is the journey of our lives. It's not like, how do we not— it's all the things that you said, like our internal happiness and self-respect and self-actualization. Like, how does that not relate to how the world sees us? the success, like the social success that we have achieved, you know, like money, fame, like all of those things that don't ultimately matter. Like, they matter because they're a part of the journey, but like maybe you set a certain goal and you get to it and then you're like, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm still not there.

Yeah, yeah. Which is what she's constantly going through. She's constantly not happy enough. and she does not know what it is that's going to fill it. And it's herself. Like, it's just herself. So it's— yeah, I had a lot of feedback on being like, make it more romance, you know, tone down. Or like, you know, the idea of the second love interest being a villain of some type. I was like, nope, that's not gonna happen because I don't believe that Ellie would choose that for herself. Do you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

And again, wanted it to be as realistic as possible. And I don't think that life just serves you easy choices. Yeah, so, but when I met my editor at HarperCollins, it was like she got it in a way that nobody else got it. And I couldn't believe that I was actually going to be publishing a story that I had been trying to write since 2010.

Wow.

It was, it was like a shock. Do you know what I mean? Even though it's a different story, very much from where it started, But this character— and then I know there's going to be a strange amount of grief of letting this character go because she's been sitting with me since I was 12, writing in my diaries. Do you know what I mean?

Sure.

And she's been living on my computer since 2010. And, you know, once the book is fully out there, which it is tomorrow, I have to let her go. And it's, it's— You have to share. That's gonna be strange.

Share her with a woman.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's sort of what she goes through, right? Like, I think the book is about letting go and learning how to let go and being okay with the things that— the decisions that you've made. That's what I think the book is about. I don't think it's a love story. I think it's a love— I think it's a self-love story.

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's really going to change lives for people who read it and go through it and, um, and influence Yeah. Yeah.

I know.

And that's it. You have no control over it anymore. Okay, so the book is not just about romance, right? Like, it's not just— and not just about Ellie. You were also alluding or referring and talking about, you know, sexual harassment and power in certain— the power that people have in certain rooms and all of that. Like, that's a very hot and, Complicated topic to talk about. Why was it important for you to add that to the book, apart from it being Ellie's story? And, and what do you want people to recognize there?

Yeah, you feel like it's life and death sometimes, right?

Like, you can—

you don't know why people make the choices that they make. And I'm, I, I'm trying to at least come at it with like a, everybody's trying their best in this world. and their best sometimes isn't good enough. And it doesn't mean that they're not— they don't deserve happiness in the end.

Yeah.

Right? She's a complicated character, and I wanted her to be complicated. And she's flawed, and I wanted her to be flawed. And if there's any character in the book that is flawed, it's Ellie. You know, she's the one that's making mistakes in this book, and I— and that was very purposeful. I didn't want There to be a world in which she wasn't surrounded by love and support. I wanted her to have all of these things, but then still struggle internally with, how do I be a person? I don't know how to be a person. I wanted that to come across.

Yeah. And I think it does.

I hope.

Yeah.

I hope that made sense.

What's your favorite part in the book?

What was my favorite part to write?

Okay.

What was my favorite part? You know, okay, so I wrote a story that is inspired by my grandma, and I really liked tying that into the book because, you know, my grandma's Quite old and she's in a care home and, you know, it's the end of her life and she turns to my mom and she asks my mom— she tells my mom the story about this boy that she loved when she was 20 years old. And my mom is sitting there and she's like, what? Had never heard of this person before, doesn't know the story of her past. The idea is, is like, Everybody has got a story, right? Everybody has got the story that was never told. And the idea of my grandma, you know, for ultimately 73 years thinking about this boy, do you know what I mean? And like I say in the book, I say she, she loved him quietly. She couldn't love him out loud. She wasn't allowed to love him out loud, right?

Yeah.

So she loved him quietly for 73 years. I really, liked the idea of that being something that Ellie was very afraid was gonna happen to her. She's constantly moving forward, and she's, she's constantly pushing herself forward into the next, into the next thing. But then sitting quietly, loving somebody for 73 years being, like, the fear.

Yeah.

I, I thought there was something about that that was really sad and, and also really beautiful. So I really quite enjoyed that, and I know that when my mom read it, I know that that affected her. So I liked writing that. For fun, I loved— there's a bathtub scene that I think is very fun, and it's ridiculous, and I had a lot of fun writing that. It really made me giggle.

Well, would you tell someone who wants to start playing around with writing— so one exercise that I give my students to help them connect with English and also to to start thinking in English and to get creative in English is to journal, right? Morning pages. I think that for me, that's when it all started again. The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron.

Um, what are you doing? Do you have notes? Like, what just happened there? No, you mentioned—

you had mentioned it already.

I know, but you said the name of the author. You're like blacking out and throwing out the author's names. Like, this is— I mean, we are—

No, it's like this is it was like it was a really I don't think I've ever finished it, but I read like I've done it halfway through several times.

Same. I started that bad boy so many times. The amount of solo dates I took myself on.

Yes, but the beginning is good. I can tell you it's impactful. So the morning pages, like this, okay, this is such a great exercise to journal in English because for me, I feel like that's when English has had become like my kind of like subconscious conversation that I, I have with myself. And now, like, I think half of my life, like, or most of my life, like, my brain works in English. And I think, well, naturally because I use it all the time, but also I think like writing and journaling, like I need to do it in English anyway. So I recommend that. But for people who start doing that and then they find joy in it, like what would you recommend for someone who's like, oh, like I have a dream to write a book? What would be your piece of advice, not recommend?

My piece of advice if you want to write a book, um, personally, start with a character. Find a character and dig deep into that.

Hmm.

Yeah. Like, let's say you don't have an idea even. You just wanna write and you wanna start writing and you wanna take, start taking that maybe a little bit more seriously. I used to, when I was a kid, I journaled in another voice. I had full journals written as different characters.

Oh, wow.

Which some might call psychotic, but I, I feel like that was me, like, Not really realizing that I was developing a love of characters and really getting internal about them. What are they feeling? What are they thinking? What's their objective? What's their super objective? And so I would have— I would do it with characters from books that I liked. So maybe, like, maybe start with something even like that. Like, what's your favorite book? And then write a small journal as that character. And see if you can dip into something that's outside of yourself. Because when I'm writing, I, I, it is very personal, but it is also fiction, right? Like, so you, you have to be able to, um, to separate yourself. Unless you're writing like an autobiography, right? But I feel like the ability to separate yourself and find that separation is also very crucial. Otherwise, you're going to be so scared to move forward.

Yeah, I love that. I've never thought about it like I've— and I think it's such a great piece of advice because you— it detaches you.

Yeah.

From anything that has to be real or has to be specific. You can like— it gives you so much more freedom even if you do channel a lot of your experiences or feelings or—

yeah.

Observations about the world.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Find it like, what's your favorite scene from a movie? Right. So I like to write cinematically because I started in, in, in film and television behind the scenes and all that stuff. Yeah. Like, what's your favorite scene from a movie? Now write what was that character thinking when that was happening?

Right.

Like you can do, you can do stuff like that to just try and sort of channel character work because for me, I think it all, it all falls into characters.

Yeah.

I think that, yeah, I think that plot is Clearly important, but if, if your characters don't feel real, then I'm out.

Yeah. Yeah. How does it feel to know that tomorrow is the day where this is gonna get published?

Strange. It feels strange. What's, what's quite strange for me is it's been published in Canada, and to know that people that know me have the ability to read it is a very vulnerable and exposing feeling. Even though it's fiction, it still feels like I know that everyone's gonna dissect it that know me, right? Because again, Ellie and I are different, but the roads we traveled are similar. They're the same. Vancouver, New York, LA. Wanted to be an actor, became a writer, worked in film. Like, like that. Her trajectory is mine.

Yeah.

But our stories are different. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

So it's very strange to me because I know that the people that know me are going to read it and they're going to be like, did that happen? Do you know what I mean? It's interesting because everybody Everybody else, I hope that it's relatable, and I hope that people find enjoyment out of it. I hope that it's moving. I hope, you know, I want to affect people. I want it to be moving. But for the people that know me, that's very frightening.

Yeah. And I also hope that you take the time tomorrow and this week to acknowledge, like, the huge achievement that it is.

Thank you.

You've been working on this for, what, 16 years?

Yeah. Yeah.

Part of your life. And this is a moment where it all— I mean, it's the end of something and the beginning of something else.

Yeah.

Because that is not gonna end for sure. But, um, but it's just like such an incredible achievement to be able to do that and to do it so well. Like almost therapeutic to go through such a journey and like, you know—

Yeah, yeah. To let it go.

And to reconcile with so many things about you and about the character and about life and about an understanding and a privilege to be able to, to be a part of this story a little bit. Not the book, but the story of your life. Yeah. And to—

you are a part of the book. You are, right? Like, it's— yeah. At one point she says in the book, and I, and I believe this fully, that like, I believe and as does Ellie, that, you know, when you love somebody, it stays with you. And it changes and, you know, it shapeshifts and all of that stuff, but it stays inside you somewhere, right? And I think that everything I write, everything I write, and again, this is something that she, that she explores in the book, but everybody I've ever loved is in there somewhere. And that's, that's you too.

That's so beautiful. And I loved having the opportunity of speaking to you about this on such an important week. So thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me and to my, to my people.

Oh my gosh, Hadar, thank you so much. And thank you for not giving me a hard time about my floor.

You look very comfortable. So I love it that you're just sitting on the floor. Uh, where Where can people find you if people want to follow you and reach out?

Yeah, I, I'm on Instagram. That's kind of it. I'm not on— I'm not on Facebook. I'm not on TikTok. I'm just on Instagram. And the book is everywhere in the States and everywhere in Canada. And it will be elsewhere soon, but I can't quite say that yet.

Okay.

And then there's going to be another story. Soon as well, but I can't quite say that yet either.

Secretive. Okay, well, we'll have to do a follow-up interview then.

Yeah. Yeah. And we'll also, like, gossip on the side.

Yeah. And follow us on socials because we are, we are planning to meet sometime soon.

Sometime soon.

In real life.

It's happening.

Yeah, that's it. Uh, thank you so much. I wish you the best of luck. This is amazing, and I cannot wait. I'm gonna put all the links to the book for people who might want to read it and the audiobook and your Instagram account.

And thank you, Hadar.

Fall in love with you like I have. Thank you so much. You're amazing. Congratulations.

I love you.

I love you too.