How to Bring Out the Best in Those You Love and Those You Lead ("The Coaching Habit")

What if the fastest way to get unstuck in your life and your relationships isn't a better plan, but it's a better question? In today's episode, I'm sitting down with the one and only Michael Bungay Stanier, author of the Coaching Habit, which, by the way, is the best selling book on coaching this century. It's celebrating its 10 year anniversary in 2026. And this conversation is not just for coaches, to be clear. It's for anyone who leads parents, manages mentors, or just wants better relationships and better results. You're going to learn the core skill that makes coaching so powerful. Staying curious a little longer and rushing to advice a little slower. Because most of us are, in Michael's words, advice giving maniacs guilty, we break down his simple, practical questions like what's on your mind to get people to open up and share what they're struggling with or what they're worried about? What's the real challenge here for you to get people to really reflect and dig deeper? And the game changing question, and what else? And what else? And what else to really dig deeper to the heart of the issue. We're talking also about accountability, not as somebody cracking the whip, but as designing systems that help you hold yourself accountable so you're empowered, not dependent, based on what actually motivates you. So if you want to bring out the best in your kids, your spouse, your team and honestly yourself, this episode will give you a toolkit that you can use immediately starting today. Let's jump in. Michael, it is so good to see you, brother.

Nice to see you too. Thanks for having me on the pod. I've been saving this pod up. It's something I've been wanting to go on for a couple of years. So I'm so delighted to make it onto the microphone with you right now.

Yeah. I sent you an open invitation or gave you in person, an open invitation, I think. And you finally, you texted me the day, said, hey, now feels like the time. Can I come on the podcast?

I want to cash that chip. Exactly. I've been looking forward to this chat. So I'm. Here we go.

Yeah. So here's what I wanted to talk about today. I mean, you're, you've written nine books, but I know the one that you are most known for is the coaching habit. I know a lot of my audience. I know we have some coaches for sure in the audience, but that's really not who I want to speak to today. I mean, if you are a coach, that's great, but I Just for me personally, I was telling you this before we started recording, right? Coaching changed my life. When I hired my first coach, my in, I doubled my income. I had, I had a lot of profound results. And I want to unpack what the qualities were that led to that and then get your, you know, your perspective and to me, and then I became a coach, which is also right. So I was on both sides of that coin. In fact, let's start out there first. Let's start like at basics. For someone that's listening and going, what is coaching? Maybe they've never been coach and they're thinking, is this like a soccer coach or a baseball coach? So how would you define coaching and what it does for people?

Look, it's a great place to start because coaching has a lot of baggage with it and it's a little, it's like everybody's kind of heard of it and lots of people are kind of not quite sure what we're talking about. And it depends of course, in context. But you know, coaching can exist in different ways. It can be like life coaching, which is like help people sort out their life and figure out how to have a better life. Sometimes it's executive coaching, which is kind of working with people in companies, sometimes it's sports coaching. And that, that kind of speaks for itself. There's ADH coaching, helping people manage that kind of part of their brain and trying to be more effective with a kind of differently wide brain. It shows up in different ways. What I'm most interested in is how to make being more coach like something available to everybody. Because coaching formally is great and it certainly has its place. You're living testament to how useful that's been. But for me, coaching is this powerful way of bringing out the best in somebody, helping them feel seen and heard and encouraged and kind of how do you do that? And so for me, it is a really core behavior at the heart of what coaching is or being more coach like is can you stay curious a little bit longer and can you rush to action and advice giving a little bit more slowly? I'm not trying to turn anybody here who's not a coach into a coach, but I would love you to stay curious a little bit longer because most of us are advice giving maniacs and it doesn't do us any good favors and it doesn't do the other person you're trying to help any favors often as well.

Well, what's interesting about you saying this is I'm actually thinking of how it applies to marriage.

Right.

Because And I don't know if it's a male, female, you know, masculine energy, but I. I know for me personally and pretty much every one of my male friends, right, When. When a woman, my wife, my daughter, comes and says, you know, complaining or venting or whatever, I immediately go to coaching in the form of, here's my advice. Here's how you solve the problem.

Yeah.

And. And.

Which I would not call coaching. I would call that often, you know, fake coaching. Because you're like. Often you're like, have you thought of or did you try or have you considered? Which is not actually a question. It's just advice with a question mark attached on the end of it.

So. So, again, okay, so just articulate that. Expand on that. So. So me. Because I would think if I was, you know, I even probably still confuse this, like, I'm coaching you. I'm telling you what to do. But you just said that would not be coaching because it doesn't involve curiosity. So. So what's. What would the difference be in terms of how you might handle that situation, whether it's with your spouse or. Or somebody you know, a colleague, etc.

Well, look, I think we can almost put aside the thing, am I coaching you or am I not coaching you? I think the bigger question to ask is, how can I be most helpful to this person in this moment?

Yes.

And the key realization is more often than you realize, they're not after your advice or opinion or suggestion or ideas. There is a place for advice. Don't get me wrong. Absolutely. When somebody comes in, says, hey, where's the cinnamon? You don't want to start asking them, how do you feel about the history of spices? That's just annoying and weird. When the house is burning down, you don't want to be going, how do you feel about smoke? That's not the thing to do. But so often it's just helpful. And you think, how can I best serve this person? How can I best support this person? How can I help them get what they want? They're often not immediately after your advice or their opinion. They want to be seen, and they want to be heard and want to be encouraged. So when your wife and daughter come to you, how. And they're like, yeah. Often the most powerful thing you can say is, man, that sounds hard. Well, that sounds difficult. Oh, God, I can see why that would drive you nuts or make you crazy or make you angry or happy or sad or whatever it might be. Yeah. And then a really simple question is to say, how can I How can I be helpful? How can I help? What do you want from me?

Yeah.

Because sometimes they're like, here's what I want from you. I do not want your stupid idea because your ideas are always wrong.

That's not my wife's response.

Yeah. So please don't mansplain this experience to me. What I want is just to go. I want you to say, that sounds hard.

Yeah.

Or, you're doing so well coping with this, or, I have your back. I'm cheering you on. If there's anything I can do to help you, just say the word, because I am there for you. And sometimes I say, I could really do with a good idea or two here. You're like, brilliant. I've got a good idea or two. It's been killing me not to tell you what these good ideas are, but I'm going to give them to you right now. Yeah.

Michael, are you married? You're married, aren't you?

I am, yeah. 30, 32 years.

Are you. Are you just. It sounds like you're the perfect husband because everything you're saying right now, I'm going. My wife would be nodding along going, why can't you be more like Michael?

I just need to repeat that out loud to my wife, Marcella, who's just over there. How says I'm the perfect husband? Marcella. Yeah. She's shaking her head, so apparently not quite the perfect husband. But I am. I am. I have so many flaws. How so many? But I am pretty good at. At resisting advice giving, and I still get suckered into it as well. There's sometimes where I'm like, I'm trying to be helpful. I want to help because I love Marcella. I'm slightly irritated. It's driving me a bit nuts that we're having this conversation again. So in some ways I'm like, I'm just trying to wrap this thing up and move it along. So it's a. It's an ongoing. It's an ongoing learning experience.

You're. You're human.

I believe so, yeah. So human.

So what the. Before you wrote the Coaching Habit, it was that how, like, were you a coach? I don't know your background. What? Yeah, tell me. Tell me your background related to coaching.

Sure. So if you rewind it all the way to where the seed got planted. As a teenager, I found myself listening to my teenage friends work through teenage angst. You know, there's a lot of. There's a lot of teenage angst around.

Sure.

And I was just pretty good at. At Listening. But I was also really feeling a sense of, is this useful? Is this any good? Because my friend Phil's been rabbiting on for two hours now about how Becky has broken his heart. And I'm kind of listening and I'm kind of get. I'm kind of going through. Make some progress on this now. How do you do this? So I signed up for something in Australia called Youth Line, which is a youth telephone crisis counseling.

Oh, wow.

And it was the kind of, you know, young people like I was at the time. I was 17 or 18, you know, having a half time thinking of killing themselves, kind of that level of practice. And it's the first time I really started seeing the power of asking a question and then being quiet and listening and also asking a question and realizing that the first answer they give you is not necessarily the best answer or the real answer. It's often just their first answer.

Yeah.

So don't be seduced into thinking you figured it out because you've asked one question and they've given you one answer.

Yeah.

So I did that through university. I moved to England, did it there. And then when I started my working career, I started noticing this rise of coaching. Now I was living in London at the time. The rise of coaching was in California. So, you know, somebody living in England, we're like these weird hippie, woo, woo Californians. You know, British are all, you know, cynical and sarcastic. But I was like, there's something interesting here. And I was working as a kind of consultant at the time, and I started saying to my clients, this is coaching. I'm going to be coaching. You know, I wasn't sure what it was. Okay. When I moved to Canada in 2001, I did coach training, started a coaching practice.

Okay.

And then to my disbelief, realized this is not what I wanted to do. I couldn't believe it. It felt like my whole life had been building up to this experience of me being a coach. But I just didn't enjoy the process of having 30 clients and managing a roster and having to find new clients and having these ongoing conversations with people. It just didn't spark me like I thought it would. So I deconstructed my coaching practice. But I started to teach how to be more coach, like how to do coaching skills, particularly in organizations. Because I could see the power of coaching. I could see it as a really liberating technology that would not only bring out the best in other people, but allow you, as the manager or the leader, to actually work less hard, to carry less weight to Feel less responsible to kind of manage your side of the table and allow them to manage their side of the table. So act as a kind of empowering force rather than a smothering force. And I thought the way coaching was being taught in organization was done really badly because they were kind of just bringing life coaching skills into managers. And I knew that was a different type of relationship. So the coaching habit, which is 10 years old now, it grew out of me spending five or six years teaching this skill to managers and leaders all around the world in kind of refining the insight about what was most useful or most valuable for them.

Two of my favorite products. I've been taking these for four years, and they are now a sponsor of the podcast Cured Nutrition Flow gummies. I start every day with two of these. I meditate for 30 minutes without any supplements, and then I take flow gummies seven days a week, almost every day. And then I go to bed with night oil. 30 minutes before bed, I take night oil, and it helps me fall asleep and stay asleep. So I start my day with flow gummies. I end my day with night oil. If you want to implement my routine into your day with Cured Nutrition, go to curednutrition.com HAL Again, that's curednutrition.com HAL and use the discount code HAL at checkout for 20% off your entire order. Flow gummies to start the day. Night oil to fall asleep. You'll feel better, you'll act better, you'll. You'll perform better. Check it out. I want to know from your perspective what role accountability plays in coaching. Because for me, that was when I hired my first coach. It was. I was. I was in sales. And having a coach that I talked to every week at that point, Right. That's like, how many calls you going to make? When are you going to make them? You know, and it's like a. It gave me clarity. But then every time I'd be sitting there, you know, in. My nature was to procrastinate or go, I'll just make my calls tomorrow. And I had done that for five years, and. But then I was like, wait, I can't not do the thing. Because I told Jeff, my Jeff, Stewie, my first coach, I told him that I was going to make 20 calls today, and I'm talking to him on Tuesday. So for me, accountability in and of itself was a game changer.

Yeah.

As well as clarity and strategy and all the other things. But like, that, for me, what really stood out? How does that fit in for you?

So when I think about how I want to show up to the people in my life. So this is people I have a coaching relationship with, perhaps, but just in general, the paradox that I hold is I want to show up with fierce love. So love being the starting point, which is like, I want to see the very best of who you are. I want to remember your greatness. I want to remember how awesome you are. I want to be just fully committed to you. Like, I'm like, I am here and I'm like, like I can see the mess and the, and the confusion and the flaws and all of that. And I want to fully love you. But the fierceness is not my relationship to them. It's what standard I then hold myself in, how I love that person, which means not just being kind, but also saying the hard thing, pushing them a little bit, just holding them to the, to the standard of greatness that you can see in them. And I think accountability and the conversation around accountability can flow from that. Here's what's dangerous with accountability. It becomes somebody else holding a whip hand over you.

Ah, yeah.

And so a, it can make the relationship feel a bit dysfunctional suddenly. A bit kind of like parent child.

Yeah.

I'm standing over you and I'm making. You're doing it and I'm, I am holding you accountable. Yeah. And I think the real power of a, of a coach is to go, how do I support you holding yourself accountable.

Yes.

Love it. So that agency stays with the person who's doing the work. Because, you know, if you've got this relationship with Jeff and it's, it's. He's getting you to do stuff, but it involves kind of force or kind of power in some ways that's not sustainable. But what it sounds like he did was he helped you figure out. This is what motivates me. I'm a person who keeps my word. I said to Jeff that I'm going to make 20 calls. I don't break my word. So I need to make 20 calls. And it becomes a self generated form of accountability. Even though Jeff seems to be playing a role in that.

Yeah, no, I love that distinction. And yeah, you're right for the, the, you know, it kind of started out with him selling me on the value of accountability, but I do remember it was like, ultimately, this is not about me cracking the whip. This is me. This is about integrity. Right. So that was really the lesson he taught, was the power of integrity. That if you value your integrity at the highest level, if you value your integrity above Your excuses, then your word becomes, you know, in pin, it's like your word is your bond if you say you're going to do something. And so his accountability was really just like, hey, I'm going to be here so that you can give your word to you and to me. And then I get to check in with you next week on how you held true to your word, to your. You upheld your integrity. And so, yeah, that was. The cool thing is it's like. It was like. It was almost like having a somebody that was. When you're lifting weights, they're spotting you. They're kind of. They're helping you a little bit. But eventually, through repetition, week after week after week, eventually they can take their hands off the bar completely. Because you've built your own integrity muscle, if you will.

I think it's a. Probably a core insight that got developed in your relationship with him that he just figured out that integrity was like, I'm going to guess. I don't know you well enough to know this for sure how. But I'm just going to guess. Integrity just feels like a core value for who you are and how you show up in the world.

Yeah, totally.

So it's understanding what's there and working with what's there. And so one of my favorite conversations around accountability is, how do we design for how you'll be slippery in this moment? Like, how are you going to collude with yourself to not get this done? And we've all got different ways, and we've all got different stories, and we've got ways of kind of like going, it's okay, I'm going to eat that tub of ice cream or not make the calls or whatever it might be. And if you're a coach, you're like, how will you get in your own way for doing this? So what do we need to design so that that is less likely to happen? And how can I support you in doing that? And you're like, I might wimp out of doing these calls. Because doing cold calls is, like, never that much fun. So how do we design around that? Well, I am a man who, when I give my word, I follow through on my promise. So what do we need to set up here? All I need to do is tell you, Je, I'm going to make 20 calls by Friday, and then I am honor bound to make those calls, and I will get them done. Brilliant. We're working with you, with who you are. We're giving you agency. We're working with what's true about how you deliver and how you kind of slip and you've got a better chance of creating an accountability flywheel that might work.

So what are some other examples of things? Let's say someone says, I could care less about my integrity. You know, I know myself to be somebody that says, I'm gonna do something, and I don't do it. So I have no problem doing that again.

Yeah. So one of my favorite ones is I'm like, okay, so you care about money? And they're like, yeah, sure, I care about money that most. Most people do. I'm like, okay, yeah. What's a number that would definitely make you do the thing that you. You're gonna. You wanna do, you also don't wanna do? It's true. At the same time. Now, when you ask that question, what most people do is they give you a number that would be painful to lose, but they're actually willing to lose it.

Interesting. Yeah, that makes sense.

They're like, okay, here's a number that can't. I'd hate to pay that cash out, but, you know, if I had to, I can afford it and the like. And so I'm like, well, that number won't do. We'll have to double it or triple it or 10 exit or something like that.

Yeah.

So I'm like, okay, so how about this as a motivator? You can make the calls or you don't have to make the calls, but for every call you miss, you pay me $2,000. So you'll write me a check on Friday for somewhere between $2,000 and $40,000. If you didn't make any of your 20 calls, I don't mind. I'm happy to take any side check from you. It's all upside from me. Is that going to motivate you? And they're like, oh, that would motivate. Or a variation on that, Hal is like, okay, so the first call you miss, you owe me a hundred bucks. Second call, you miss 200 bucks. Third call you miss 400 bucks. So there becomes this escalating type of pain. And of course, you can set your own number in terms of where you want to start. But there's different ways to say, how do we set up a system where I'm like, oh, yeah, I've got ten grand on the. On the line here. I do not want this to. I don't want to miss this. Here's a story. I had a friend, my friend Karen. She and I had a bet around how long we could maintain a Meditation streak.

Nice.

Because I know, you know, this idea of silence and sitting is often like one of your miracle morning steps. Right. A process of being in that moment and being present. And I think it was like a 60 day thing. You have to do a certain amount of minutes per day and the person who did the least what was on the table, and this is immediately TMI for some of your listeners, is that the person who lost had to get vajazzled. Now, do you know what I mean by vagazzling?

Not exactly.

Exactly. Well, let's say this, how do I say this in a way that is family friendly. So it involves shaving a certain part of your body.

Yeah.

And putting crystals on it.

Oh, wow. Okay.

And, and that part of your body is typically lower half. And that's probably all the information you need to know. So you're in the pubic region.

Okay.

And the person who loses has to go through that process.

And who was this, that, who, who did this?

This is just a friend of mine. We're like, neither of us want to go through this experience now. Luckily, really, we both hit exactly the same number. So neither of us had to do that. Pay the, pay the price. But it was really motivating, believe me. I remember at one stage, lying in bed, it's like 10:30, that's like already past my bedtime. And I'm like, I haven't done my meditation for the day. So I grab out of bed, sit down, do a 10 minute, sit on a cushion, going, I'm just, just doing my time here because I cannot lose this bet.

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, and that's what we do in life. It's like, whatever. The more pain, is it more painful to procrastinate or to do the thing? And if, if, if, if there's no immediate painful consequence to procrastinating, then that's why we do it. We're like, yeah, if I procrastinate, I get the immediate relief of not having to do the work that feels nice. And no one's really paying attention. Nobody knows. So there's really no consequence except for long term pain from not following through with the things that are going to get to where you want to go in life.

It is one of the great questions. This is, I think, a profound insight, Hal, which is, it's remarkable how much you can get away with because nobody's really paying attention and you kind of, for a while you think everybody is. And then at a certain point you're like, nobody, you know that I was saying, I Used to worry what people thought of me until I realized nobody thought of me. And it's similar. It's like I used to worry what people would think of my ability to deliver until I realized nobody was really watching it. So I could do very little if I wanted to get away with it. So then you've got to try and find this internal sense of purpose and drive and connection to why you're doing the work. Because if you're relying on those external motivators, they will fall away or shift over time. You've got to keep connecting back to that kind of internal sense of purpose, which of course is, believe it or not, that's what the miracle morning is all about. You may, you may not have realized that.

Yeah, no, that, no, that makes sense. Yeah. And what I love about coaching for me is it's like, it's like you said, it's, it's when we're, when we have nobody to check in with, nobody that's looking over, it's, it's just easy to let ourselves down. And it's the same, it's the same principle of getting a personal trainer, right? It's easy to sign. I mean, how many people sign up for a gym membership and they don't use it, right? But if you're, if you're paying a personal trainer that's waiting for you and looking at their clock because you're meeting them at 7am then right, you're going to go, right. It just, it gives you leverage over your self imposed limitations and obstacles because you have a support person there.

And then it's helpful to understand how you get slippery with the systems that you set up. So there's some interesting research that says as soon as you start paying for something, you feel like you, in some ways you have more of a right to cancel because you're like, hey, it's, it's the 80 bucks I owed my trainer. I'm happy to just pay the 80 bucks and not show up.

Interesting.

So again, it keeps coming back to how will you be slippery with this? And how do you want to kind of stoke it so that you're like, oh, that, you know what, I'm going to go to this thing after all. So you may have hired a personal trainer, but you may know, look, I'm callous enough just to go, look, I'll just cancel and if I have to pay a cancellation fee because it was within 24 hours before the class, whatever, I can afford 80 bucks cancellation fee. But if it's like you have to you have to pay the cancellation fee, you have to pay for somebody else's exercise class. And the next time you see your trainer, you have to do 50 push ups before you start the exercise. Maybe that's, you're like, yeah, I, I hate push ups. Yeah, yeah, I'm definitely going to go. So design for what's true for you, not just what's true in general.

Yeah, what? The coaching habit. Define who is this book for? I know this is the 10 year anniversary, it's your most popular book. Who is it for?

Look, it's for, it's for people who interact with other people. So if you're a monk and you're in a cave and you're by yourself, this is less helpful for you. But if you are a leader or a parent or a manager or a teacher or a therapist, any of these moments where you're like, I have influence but not control over these people in my lives and I'm trying to bring out the best in them. Being more coach like can really be powerful. And the purpose of the book is to try and unweird coaching for normal people because coaches, they're already into it, they already get it. They're like, I've drunk the whatever around coaching, but I'm like, if you're a parent, how do you add curiosity into the way that you parent so that you can better support your kid and have them increase their agency and their confidence and their competence and their self actualization? How do you play that role? If you're a teacher, how do you move from just telling people stuff to actually using curiosity to help people learn more deeply? It's about helping people become smarter and braver by you playing a role of guide and person asking questions rather than telling them what to do.

And I love the way you define coaching, which to me is also the definition of parenting, which is bringing out the best in another human being. And that's what I love about your book, is that it is it, I mean it and it. And it gives you the questions which you demonstrated earlier when I asked you for the example of when my wife or daughter comes to me, you know, venting, complaining. Right. And I just dive right into advice and you say no, Remind me of how you asked it. It was like, what you need?

Yeah. So that's one of the seven questions which is like, how can I help? Or what do you want from me?

Can you run through the seven right now?

Sure. I'll do them out of order because sometimes they're interesting in how they Pair up. Okay, so I'm going to give you the bookends first, the first and the last question, number one and number seven.

Okay.

So the first question is the focus question. And it kind of builds on what we'd already been saying, which is, look, the first thing that somebody brings is almost never the actual challenge. It's their best guess. It's their articulation. It's a thing there in their head. But it's often. It's a symptom. Sometimes it's actually a solution to an unspoken challenge. Okay, so the first question. Actually, the first question is the kickstart question. I'm getting confused with those questions, which is like, how do you start? And I think the most powerful question to start is simply, what's on your mind? You know, hey, what's going on? What's on your mind? What's up? It invites people to say, let me tell you what's in my heart. You know, what I'm excited about or worried about or anxious about or overwhelmed by. It kind of can accelerate into a faster, deeper conversation. In part. And especially in organizations, managers and leaders don't have time for long, drifty, woo woo conversations. I'm already over committed. Yeah. And a kind of core belief of this coaching approach is like, you can coach somebody in five minutes or seven minutes or certainly under 10 minutes. Yeah. But it requires you getting closer to what the real thing is faster. And what's on your mind can really help with that.

Or what keeps you up at night. Right. That can be like another version.

Yeah. Yeah. What kept you up last night would be the, the, the, the nuance on that because it's like, what's going on right now? Yeah. And then the bookend question. The final question you might want to ask at the end of every conversation is the learning question. And it's this insight that people just don't learn that well from what you tell them. Most of what you tell them goes in one ear and out the other.

Oh, totally.

They don't even learn from what they do. They learn when they have a moment to reflect back on what just happened. That's why writing and scribing is such a key part of the miracle morning. You're like, it's a way of actually figuring some stuff out. So at the end of a conversation, the question, what was helpful here? What was most useful? What was most valuable? What are you taking away? What do you know now that you didn't know before? What was the aha moment? So in summary, what was most useful Here for you is a really great way to finish a conversation. That's. So those are the bookend questions. Then you've got a couple of questions that pair really well in terms of trying to figure out what the thing is, because here's the big shift in insight for people, which is often the most useful thing you can do is help people figure out what the challenge is. It's not to give them the answer, because answers are everywhere. Like, whatever answer you've got, ChatGPT or whatever the AI platform of choice can give it to me better and smarter and faster than you with references. So what's the real challenge here for you? Is the Focus question. What's the real challenge here for you?

You're getting them to name it, which is so valuable because often taking their.

Best guess at naming it, because they probably won't know it exactly the first time you ask that question. But how that's built, how that's constructed, how it matters. So it's not what's the challenge, it's what's the real challenge? So now you're saying, look, there's stuff going on. It's complex. What's the real challenge here? Now you're making them think you love it when you make them think that's them getting smarter because they're trying to figure this out. And it becomes even more powerful when you go, what's the real challenge here for you? Because now they're really going, this is what's hard about this for me right now. This is not what's hard about this in general. It's like, here's what's hard for me right now. What's the real challenge here for you? But then I would add to that the what I think is probably the best coaching question, Hal. Three words, really simple. The acronym is awe. So it's literally awesome. And what else? Because their first answer is never their only answer. It's almost never their best answer. So a script for people listening can be something like this. Hey, what's on your mind? Oh, yeah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, you're like, God, that sounds hard. So in that, what's the real challenge here for you? Oh, okay. What else is a challenge here for you? Okay, what else? What else is a challenge here for you? Is there anything else? Okay, so what's the real challenge here for you?

It's going deeper and deeper and deeper.

And in that, which is like somewhere between one and three minutes of coaching, you've got somewhere really interesting, and I can tell you how powerful this is. Because I have had that conversation in about 35 languages, none of which I speak. So when I've been teaching this around the world and I'm demonstrating this, I'll have somebody come up or join the circle or whatever, and they will speak in their native tongue and I'll speak in English and I'll go, what's on your mind? And they'll say something in Finnish. I'm like, I don't know what that was, but it sounds like a real thing. So I'll nod my head. I'll go, great, so what's the challenge here? And they will name it. And I'm like, okay, what else? And they'll say something else in finish. And we'll go through it. I'll go, so, what's the real challenge here for you? They're like, something in finish. And then go, that was amazing. That was a fantastic piece of coaching. All to say, you don't need the answer. You don't need to know the answer. You don't have to come up with the answer. You don't need to save this person. If you can help them figure this stuff out, if they can get to the heart of the challenge, most of the time, they will actually know what to do with it. They can solve it themselves. The great gift you're giving them is giving them agency, helping them feel seen and heard and encouraged, and helping them get clear about what the real, the hard thing is, what the challenge really is.

I love that. And I think we do at least me speak for myself, which is you. You ask what's going on, and. And then I skip the awe. I skip the end. What else? I just immediately go, oh, here's what you should do, right? And as a parent, I mean, that's actually what I love about this book is for me right now, I'm not. I have one coaching client, but. But it's. I have two. Two kids, right, which are required daily coaching. You know, I do. I do twice a month for my coaching client. My kids get, you know, me every day. And what I love about this is. Yeah, it's truly to. To bring out your definition of coaching. To bring out the best in someone. It is to me, the only way to bring out the best in someone is to ask them these questions. Because if you tell them what you think they should do, by definition, you are not bringing out the best in them. You're trying to push the best of you onto them. Right? So it's only through these coaching questions.

And it's worth saying how well, two things. First of all, in the new edition of the Coaching habit, there's a 10 year edition coming out. There's a downloadable chapter about coaching and parenting. So just, it's like, here's how you apply this stuff to actually parenting. But the other thing is just to say, because I want people to hear this, there is a place for your advice and your suggestions and opinions. I'm not saying never give anybody an idea ever again in their life. But even when you, if, when you've got a really stonkingly good idea and it's probably the best idea, it still might not be the thing to do to give it to them. At least not right at the start. Here's how it can sound. You go, all right, so what's the real challenge here for you? And they're like, oh, it's this. And you're like, God, that, that feels like the real challenge. And in your head you're like, and I know exactly what you should be doing. So resist that. Resist the advice monster. The advice monster's loomed up out of the dark. And it's like, I'm going to add some value to this conversation. Here's what you can say instead. Look, I've got some ideas around how you could deal with that, but I bet you've got some ideas too. I'll tell you mine, but before I do, I'm really curious. What have you already figured out about this?

Wow, I love that.

What are your best ideas? Oh, cool. What else could you do? Oh, I love that. What else is there? This is great. What other ideas do you have? I mean, these are terrific. This is really excellent. So I love all your ideas. Here's another one idea that I'll throw into the mix that might be helpful for you. Yeah. And so you're still following through on your promise that you've got their back. You're going to give them ideas, you're going to help them make the choice, but you're getting them to do the work. You're giving them agency. You're seeing that they're saying, look, I see you as somebody who can figure this out and I will help you get as far as you can and I'll also help you get to a really good answer around this.

I love that, Michael, I. It's so brilliant because a again, going back to bringing out the best in other people, you're getting them to bring their ideas to the table. But here's what to me, what's maybe most brilliant about it is that when you do finally, when it is finally time for you to share your advice, your ideas, you're doing so with so much more information, so much more context because you just heard three, four, five ideas from them. And now. And, and which by the way, one of their ideas might have been your idea.

Exactly, exactly.

And if they do it on their own and you can edify it, it's so much more powerful for them.

You got it. All of those things are true. Which is like, I mean it's a fair bet that some of the ideas you had, they've already had. So they're like, yeah, yeah, obvious dad. So when they do all of that, you can go, look, these are great ideas. I particularly like this idea you had. I had a little build on it and I thought you could do that and also this. So now you're really honoring their ability to figure this stuff out. And also if you're in a different context. So like say you're a manager or a leader.

Yeah.

If you're the boss and you go first with the solution, everybody goes, that's a really good idea, boss. No, I think your idea is definitely the best. No, no. Oh yeah. I had some ideas but they're definitely not as good as your idea, boss. So there's a way that if you've got the highest status in the relationship, your idea and your insight can kind of has a heavier gravity. Yeah. So you're also trying not to suck the oxygen out of the conversation by you just casually throwing out your suggestion and everybody going, oh, you're amazing. How we'll definitely do what you think we should do.

I love that. This is fantastic. So every parent needs to read the coaching habit. Every manager, every leader, of course, every coach. Where is the best place for people? I know the 10 year anniversary. When does this come out, Michael?

Yeah, it comes out March 24, but we're but 2026. We're celebrating the year of the coaching habit. So we've got a whole year of fun events planned. Less to kind of shift copies of the books, more to help people deepen their own knowledge and experience of coaching. So if people go to MBSworks shop, that's the way you can sign up for the year of the coaching habit. There's different ways you can get involved, but the easiest way is just a free level which is like sign up, we'll send you some free tools, some free assists, free invitations to bits and pieces. So yeah, mbsworks shop and there's a bunch of ways that people can get the Book and more if they'd like that.

So MBS works dot shop and mbs as in Michael Stanier. Yeah, works.

Yeah. Mbs. MBS works is all one word. Shop is the suffix. Yeah. And then my general website is just to confuse things. MBS dot works. Okay.

All right, well, I'm going to say go to mbsworks.com shop to. To join the the year of the Coaching Habit. Get the book again, if you are a parent, a leader, a manager, a coach, this is arguably, I mean, it's the best selling book of the last decade on coaching. So there's a reason for that. And I think you exemplified it in your conversation today, Michael. In fact, as soon as we get offline, I'm going to talk to you about being my coach. I think so.

That's great, Hal. Thanks for having me on. It's been a pleasure.

Yeah. Any. Any closing. I want to give you one more chance to any last of inspiration or insights or questions or challenges that you leave listeners with.

Well, the one thing I've really learned in 10 years and more of talking about this, the way coaching shows up, is to often solve a problem, just like you were saying right at the start, which is like, I need to make calls. I've had a coach, they're going to help me make calls. And coaching definitely can do that. But sometimes coaching works and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes the problem gets solved, sometimes it doesn't. The deeper gift of coaching is to help people feel seen and heard and encouraged. So this ability to show up and stay curious just isn't about can we fix the thing? Yeah, it's, can you be present to the person across the table from you so they feel that kind of full sense of who they are so they can be seen by you? Because that's the. That's the more profound gift.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's the gift of one human being, the gifts of humanity. Right. Sharing our humanity with another person, seeing them, loving them, supporting them, encouraging them. And I get from you, that's the essence of coaching. So thank you for all the work that you do, brother, and what you bring to the world. And you've changed the lives of countless people and you've impacted mine in a meaningful way.

No, thank you.

All right, I'll see you next time, buddy.

Yeah. Sam.