Navigating Conflict Without Losing the People You Love

Hello, friends. If you've ever felt exhausted by conflict or you have people in your life who have hurt you with their words or their actions, maybe people that you love, maybe it's aunts, uncles, parents, friends, sisters, brothers, or you're wondering if there's a better way to disagree without losing yourself or the people you care about. This conversation is for you. How to navigate conflict, my friend, I guess Kelsey Blahnik. She is someone I met at a restaurant and I was fascinated by her work and her new book, the and Way. Assertive Peacemaking in a Divided World. And when she told me about what she did and how she helped people, I immediately asked her to be on the podcast. She works on the front lines of emotional and relational tension, not just in therapy rooms, but in the real world mess of families, workplaces, and the broader, deeply divided culture that we're all a part of. And in this interview, we talk about how to stay grounded when emotions run high. How you can set boundaries without cutting people out of your life completely and forever, and how to speak your truth without blowing up relationships. We also unpack the and Ways, Kelsey's unique style of therapy, which teaches you that you always have more than just two extreme options. And it is in the nuance where you can most effectively navigate everyday conflict and repair and create thriving relationships. So if you're tired of either or thinking right versus left, and you're looking for a practical human way to navigate tension with clarity and self respect, this conversation will give you a new lens and tools you can use immediately. Let's get into it. Kelsey, it's so good to see you again.

It's great to see you too.

This is. I don't know that I've ever had a podcast guest enter the podcast. The way that you did and the way that, you know, for those that don't know, like you and I were at Nectarine, this awesome restaurant here in town that we frequent, and I. How did you overhear me talking? Was that it about our books?

I heard, I think the person you were with saying asking something about getting their book out.

That's right. That's right. It was Nate Thomas. He just texted me. He's the founder of the Shmoody app. Yeah. And then you're like, you had just. And you shared you had a book coming out and I asked you to share what it was about. It's called the and Way, which is also your therapy that you created. Right. That's your own methodology. And I had you explain it to me and I was fascinated And I was like, I have a podcast. Will you come on podcast? And you're like, well, the book's not out for, like, a couple of weeks, you know, so, yeah, so I'm really, really excited to have you on.

God, I'm so excited to be here. And now the book's out, so this is great timing.

Nice. So your background, clinical social worker, is that correct?

That's right.

And for those that don't know what. What is that? What. What does that profession entail, and how did you get into it?

So I have always wanted to be a social worker since I was a teenager. And what's neat about social work compared to a lot of other professions that are out there in the counseling world is we learn how to be both case managers and clinicians. So the clinician side is what you think of as a mental health therapist. So I do have a private practice manager, and that's what I do now. But when I was using my social work skills to be a case manager, I was working in a bunch of different settings, both in the private and public sectors, being able to serve clients who were either dealing with addiction or were unhoused. I worked with veterans for a long time. I worked with a lot of different populations in both inpatient and outpatient settings. So social work is neat because you can cover any different population, and there's. You can do policy work. So many different routes you can go.

And then now you've had a private practice for how long? And what. Why a private practice? How is that different from the work you were doing before?

Yeah, so I was working at the VA when I got pregnant with my first kiddo. And we were fostering, and we were like, this is going to be a lot to both deal with, trying to lead. Every time we had to deal with the red tape of taking off 15 minutes of work or something, it was always really tricky because when you have kids, there's always these things you have to be present for. And so. And I was very sick in pregnancy, too. Um, and so I decided I wanted a little more flexibility. And so I would love to get back to that work eventually again. But it was the right time to have my own schedule. And so I stepped back from that role and just started my practice about. It's been about 10 years ago now, not quite. Um, let's see. It was right after the Parkland shooting is when I decided that I wanted to have a private practice that really prioritized accessible, affordable mental health care.

Mm. I love accessible, affordable mental health. Mental Health care. So your practice is called the and Way. It is trademarked. It's very much yours. It's also the title of the new book. What. What is it? What inspired you to create it?

Yes, it's all about not living in these extremes. A lot of times we feel like we're given these two extreme options and realizing that we. There is a lot of gray that we can move within. I think a lot of times we oversimplify and I think social media has given us a lot of those options to oversimplify things. Water it down so we can put it as the, the title of a magazine article or the, you know, quick reel. And instead there's so much complexity available to us, so much complexity within each of us and in our relationships. It doesn't. One of the main things that I talk about is the complexity in relationships and therapy around. It's. You don't have to just cut somebody out of your life once they've wronged you or once you've, you've had a hard time. There are a lot of ways you can set boundaries and have a different kind of relationship. That doesn't mean no contact completely or it doesn't mean that you just get walked all over and you, you know, let anything happen either.

I love that. I'm a big fan of that because I do see you see that a lot in society. Like, I cut my mom out, she's toxic. Or, you know, it's like, wait, there's, there's, there's nuance there. Like, this is, you know, there's history, there's, there's seeing other people's side of the story. Like, for me, I'm a big believer that if you had lived another person's life, you'd probably be exactly the same. So stop judging and condemning them because they did not have your life experience, your brain, your perspective. Right. And I think we tend to write people off because, oh, they don't say things that I like and they don't do things that I like. So I love that. So the and way. What are some other examples of how we have this black and white thinking and where the and way kind of bridges that gap and gives you more of a nuanced approach.

So the way that I discovered this, this methodology is, was actually around food. My relationship with food of either feeling like I grew up with the idea that nutrition had to be prioritized and, you know, it was all about weight management and food being about what's good and bad for you. I got second that Good, bad gridlock with foods and labeling them. And then the, the pendulum swing to the other side of that, that I got introduced to maybe, you know, 15 years ago, was the idea of food being available for pleasure and, and enjoyment. And I think some of the movement that direction, if we don't also pay attention to nutrition, get so focused on just let yourself do anything ever. And there's, there's this beautiful balance that we can find in holding both nutrition and pleasure in my relationship with food. And so that's what I, I found and that's what I was doing in a lot of my work with clients with disordered eating behaviors and eating disorders. And that's how I stepped into this in the first place.

I love that. I'm really curious because I'm, I'm food and eating in terms of the quality of the food I eat, which is, you know, why you and I, we're both probably at Nectarine, right. It's a clean eating restaurant. What I'm curious, what is your, what is a daily. Like, what's an average day in your life look like in terms of when do you eat your first meal? Like, like if you're open to it. Walk me through the whole thing because I'm really, really curious because that's something that I'm hyper focused on.

Oh. Oh, how interesting. So when I, when I wake up, I don't eat immediately right away. I usually, I, I'm, I love my athletic greens. I love my element. I'm, I'm, I'm into that first thing. I love my ice matcha with collagen and coconut butter. So I get some fats and some protein and, and start that out in the first few hours and then I go for. Protein bar is like usually the first thing that I eat, you know, a few hours into being up. Usually like I, I love those David's bars. Now that's what I'm into most recently. But I love masculine bars. And what's another good one? Like go macro and then go macro.

Not David's and not. What's the other one?

Mescla M, E, Z, C, L, A. Yes, those are cricket bars.

I bought a cricket flower bar a few years ago.

Interesting. No, it's not one of those.

Yeah, crickets. It's supposed to be the most. It was like they were pitching it. I don't see them anymore. But it was this huge thing. Like this is the most sustainable source of protein is crickets. And I would give them to my kids, you know, hey, you want this chocolate Bar and then I would tell them after they had a few bites like, oh, that's crickets.

I think that sounds like something cool off Shark Tank or something.

Yeah, I think it was on Shark Tank. I'm not sure, but yeah. Yeah. All right, so you start with. All right, so you. So a little bit of morning fasting and then some fats for the brain and then a protein bar. And then what?

And I'm exercising usually first thing in the morning. Like after dropping off kids at school, then getting to work the first few hours, take a lunch break. In terms of what I eat, that depend. I do a lot of leftovers. I'm big on leftovers. But I already have something ready to just heat up real quick in between clients. I'm also a big fan of buffalo cauliflower is like always in the rotation for us. So Buffalo cauliflower, just this ranch on top.

You and I could hang out for a day anytime, Kelsey, and just eat together like we're on the same page. I'm on board. Let's go. All right. All right. So leftovers for lunch and then what about dinner?

And then I'm every couple hours eating like refueling with, you know, either. I love smoothies. I would, I would live off of smoothies. I really would. A smoothie bowl or smoothie any, anytime. And same with drink. Matcha is my favorite thing right now and has been for years. And I could just live off of putting some protein in my matcha for a long time. And then in dinner is when I have probably had my. My biggest meal. And. And then I love having like a little something sweet at night. I don't. I'm just one that doesn't really crave sugar first thing in the morning. Like how people will go for donuts. I'm like, that doesn't even sound good to me.

Yeah.

But it's probably not great that I'm into doing it at night either because that probably, you know, gives me a little bit of a. A wake up when I need to be shutting down.

So. Have you ever had Cocoa June yogurt? Yes, love, that's how that's my dessert now. Like after I had cancer, I cut way back on sugar and so yes, it was, but I still have that sweet. Like I want something sweet. Ish. A little bit. A little sweet. So I have Cocoa June yogurt and I actually use half unsweetened, half sweetened, so it's even. There's like 3 grams of sugar in the whole bowl of yogurt. But it's so decadent. It's organic. It's got like three or four ingredients. It's amazing. So that's my, that's my, my daily go to.

I love that one too. I. I never think to do that at night, but that's a great option. It's usually like an afternoon kind of go to. To me or maybe instead of a bar doing that in the morning. I love the unreal, the mini bars. Like, I love dark chocolate, but those little unreal mini bars.

I have dark chocolate almost every day.

Yes, yes.

In fact, in my desk drawer, I've got two sweetened with dates, by the way, not refined sugar. So the conscious bar, this is cacao and dates, Espresso crunch. And then this is my new favorite. It's so good. Spring and mulberry and again sweetened with cacao. So, yeah, these are literally like my, like, oh, I need a little bit of A little, you know, bring my sugar levels up or whatever and eat the fat for the brain. Eat the best of it all. Plus the cacao and the phyto. Lots of good stuff. All right. About two of my favorite products. I've been taking these for four years and they are now a sponsor of the podcast Cured Nutrition Flow Gummies. I start every day with two of these. I meditate for 30 minutes without any supplements, and then I take flow gummies seven days a week, almost every day. And then I go to bed with night oil. 30 minutes before bed, I take night oil and it helps me fall asleep and stay asleep. So I start my day with flow gummies. I end my day with night oil. If you want to implement my routine into your day with Cured Nutrition, go to curednutrition.com HAL Again, that's curednutrition.com HAL and use the discount code HAL at checkout for 20% off your entire order. Flow gummies to start the day, night oil to fall asleep. You'll feel better, you'll act better, you'll perform better. Check it out. So back to the anway. A little bit of a detour. You just. So you've this therapy. When did you. You've been. You've been in private practice for 10 years helping people with their mental health. What else would you say? Who else do you help? And I would even go as far as say, who does the. Who's the book for? Hmm.

Well, what I think is so funny is when I tell people about my book being about relationships and politics and how we navigate that, most people want to say, oh, I know someone who that books for and they want to point over to somebody else like, oh, my uncle needs to read that and my sister needs to read that. And I, I encourage them kindly, this book is for you. You know, this book is for anyone that's ever dealt with inner conflict. And if we can each. Those of us who don't feel like we're constantly finding ourselves in a state where we're, we're really, you know, whoever that person is that they're pointing to, where we're really causing like, you know, actual violence or a lot of verbal insults, a lot of verbal aggression, then this is a great opportunity for you to read this book and be able to look internally and see how can you create more peace in the world by, by being reflective, by being more intentional, and by being more engaged in what's going on. I think a lot of us have landed in a pretty apathetic place because, you know, we throw our hands up like this is a huge problem. I don't know how I'm gonna contribute. I don't know how to get all that out there better. And so instead, how can we look inward as self healing leading to world healing?

So, so kind of the Gandhi be the change that you wish to see in the world philosophy.

Absolutely, absolutely.

And the subtitle of the book, it's. So the book is the and way the subtitles Assertive peacemaking in a divided world. And I guess that would be a question is like Assertive peacemaking in a divided world. But. But this is more for interpersonal relationships. Right. Or how would you define. Right. How people that reading the book. And I know you address politics and how we are divided, which. That's one of the things that resonated with me when you were talking about the book is I went, man, I'm such a stand for unity. Like our, our, our country, our world is so divided. It's so polarized. It's so right versus left and you know, conservatives versus or democrats. And it's like we do have to, we have to lead in our own family. Right? You, you can't change other people. You can only change how you show up. So break down the and way a little bit. What are some other examples? So we, I dove into the food one because that's where I'm really. I like to nerd out on food. But what are some other examples of how somebody's going to use this technique, like when they read your book or if they're in therapy with you? But let's talk about the book how are they going to apply this in their own life? What are some examples of how this will help people in a practical way to improve their relationships, improve their mental health and so on?

Yeah, so what I start with, the first half of the book is all about how we do this internally. And then once people have really reflected and gone through those chapters, the second half of the book is how we do this interpersonally when it, when it comes to our, our one on one relationships and also in our community and beyond. And so and I address like institutions and leadership and how they can apply this as well. So on an individual basis, I start with using parts language, recognizing that in the moment of crisis, in the moment of conflict, there are usually a few different responses that we go to and we usually have more of a default. Maybe it's not the same default response with every single person, but you may know, hey, my default with mom is getting aggressive. Hey, my default with dad is shutting down. My default with my, with my love, my sister is a different one than it is with my boss at work. And so getting really introspective about what are those different protective instincts, the reactions that we tend to rely on in these different dynamics and getting really familiar with, where did that come from? You know, what's the source of why I, why I rely on that instinct in this relationship? How is it trying really hard to serve me well? And then how can I, how can I use that to a point where it is beneficial or it is going to actually help me constructively in a relationship? Like there are instances with your boss where being as aggressive for sure, but even being assertive isn't necessarily a smart survival tactic, right? There are times where being passive is something that helps us survive a difficult situation. And yet as often as possible, how can we recognize the instinct to want to shut down or explode and instead pull back and use some grounding techniques to pull back into our, you know, most grounded, centered self and then from there have a more constructive conversation with someone.

So I love that. I love the approach that it starts with. And it's like anything, the inner work, right? You've gotta, you've gotta get at peace with yourself. You've gotta create some empathy within yourself to, and some nuance to see both sides of a person, you know, both sides of the situation. I think that people often in conflict, it's either either we shut down or we try to win, right? Like it's, it's one or the other. Either you're like, whatever, I throw my hands up, I Don't want to fight. There's the conflict avoidant, which I would. You know, I think that's probably more my camp. And then there's the, like, I'm gonna prove you right. I'm. I. I'm right. You're wrong. You know what, what. How would the and way create kind of the nuance between those perspectives or between how you approach a. Even some specific verbiage or techniques that you teach in the book, how you approach it versus, you know, not one extreme or the other of shutting down or trying to win.

Yeah. So I, I go through. In the, in the second part of the book, when we talk about how this con. The conversations can actually go, I talk about the different styles of conflict and how if you're leaning into more of an aggressive stance, that that's more of your default response. How you can use some of these skills, like practicing I statements, starting with some more vulnerability, as uncomfortable as that is, and being able to identify your want, the actual request you have for being able to move forward in a relationship, how much that can benefit you, and then from a passive stance, why it's so important to actually, actually name the issue instead of hiding it, that the more we pile stuff under the rug, the taller that bump in the rug gets and the harder it is to make your way from one end of the room to the other, over to the other.

That makes sense. Yeah.

And then when it comes to being able to identify our. That second part, that want, I think that we've really struggled with that in our culture. Right now, we're getting a lot better at identifying all our feelings and being able to share, you know, some of the things that we don't like that the other person is. I call that putting in a complaint and not necessarily a request. I think we need to get more often to the request piece. So the question I like to ask my clients is, what would you need to hear? See what would you need in order to feel repaired with them? I think we oftentimes stop at, I don't like what they did. And then we're just ready to push them away or judge them instead of asking, what would I need to see that other person do? To feel like that accountability piece is there to feel repaired. And when somebody truly gets to, there's nothing they could do, and they're, you know, that they. They don't feel open to whatever. Whatever attempts the other person can make, you know, maybe the other person is truly to that level of toxicity that they're going. There's there's no interaction that's going to feel safe enough. There are times when no contact is appropriate. Right. There are those spaces. It's just that when we do that as the default, that's when. When we're. We're using that a little too much.

Yeah, right.

Starts to get dangerous.

Yeah. And I've seen that my. In my family, like, family members cutting off other. Other family members because they have different political beliefs. And I'm like, how are you letting you know political beliefs trump your relationships, like, pardon the pun there with Trump, but. Right. Like, well, you know, it's just interesting. Well, why do you think that is, by the way? Why do people. Why are they. Why are we so polarized? Polarized that someone is willing to cut off a relationship with someone because of how they vote or, you know, what. What political party they associate with that kind of thing?

I think it's a few factors. I think instant gratification, the way that that's accessible to us now, has left us not as used to discomfort and not as likely to lean into discomfort. I think that we now know we have so many options for relationships, including people online, that we never may have interacted with face to face. That, you know, it's not like in previous generations where the person that you see at the bakery, that baker, is the one that if you have a weird interaction, you're going to have to go back to the bakery next week and get a loaf of bread and interact with them again. You can now even go five, 50 other bakeries on Yelp if you didn't like the way that. That one interaction went down. And so don't think we get the practice.

You just made me think of something which is, this makes so much sense. Like, there's so much. And I don't study this. It's not my area of expertise. But, like, how the Internet has changed humanity. Right. And. And cha. And how social media and what came up specifically is you think about. Let's say you mentioned before, like, our relationships were limited to proximity. I don't know if you said it that way, but that's how I would look at it. To proximity. Right. Like, before the Internet, it was like, I have relationships with the people that are around me, right. But now let's say you and your, you know, your mom or whoever your uncle get, right. You fight and you know that there's a Facebook group of people that think exactly like you, the opposite of your uncle. And you. You're. And you're literally, there's almost this like, ooh, you're. You're thinking ahead. I'm going to tell him off. I'm gonna. I'm gonna tell them to screw off. Then I'm gonna log into Facebook and I'm gonna tell my group that I told my uncle to screw off, and they're gonna go, great job. You did it. You got rid of that stupid, ignorant. Right? Like, absolutely.

And I think. I think that therapists are doing that, too, because we only get one side of the story. And so I think a lot of times I hear that that kind of isolationism is actually given more oxygen in the therapy room. And that's where I'm really leaning into trying to call in the mental health professionals to. To really encourage repair and really, that there are space. There are times for that, and it's not every time that that's necessary. I see so often there are keyboard warriors. You know, the people that. I see the way they interact online, and then I see the way that they actually interact in person, and it's so different. They would never say some of the things that they would say online to your face. And so I think we've gotten way too comfortable behind a screen.

Yeah, yeah. No, it's so true. And I know that for me, it goes back to what I said earlier. Like, that. I guess you'd call it empathy of the perspective that if I had lived that person's life, I would probably be exactly the same way. Like, that, for me, is the. That's the doorway to unconditional love. Like, for me personally, right. Is like, oh, you know, that person did something that I think's horrible for my. Like, I'll give you an extreme example, right? Let's say someone murdered someone, right? Well. Well, if they grew up in a gang and all their friends murdered people and their dad murdered someone, right? Like, that becomes normal. And I'm not justifying it. I'm not saying. I'm just using a really extreme example to where. If you grew up in a household where you never saw violence and you never. Right. It wasn't even a thought, you'd be like, that's horrible. What a horrible human being. They deserve to burn in hell. Like, Right. Like, whereas. Yeah, anyway, so what. What, as a therapist, like, how do you. Is empathy something? Like, when you're talking about repair, what are some of the perspectives that you offer? Kind of like the one that I offered or. I mean, different. But what do you offer to your clients to get them to, like, see the. The human in the person that they're now vilifying.

I think first it starts with building that self compassion. Recognizing it's so easy to point at someone else and see hypocrisy and. And judgment. And then it. We're doing it constantly to ourselves. Inner critic is in there speaking up with. With a similar stance of, yeah, bad thing. And so now you're a bad person or you did this bad thing, now you're a bad mom. And. And so being able to work on identifying guilt versus shame. And I also talk about compliance, regret, you know, not pleasing other people's expectations versus what's actually in your own values. And. And then there's also the aspect of just recognizing that there is a compassionate voice still available to us. So getting really in tune with that compassionate voice. And that judgmental voice may still be there because that's. Maybe that inner critic's been playing for a while. So we'll practice this exercise. Like, what would your compassionate self say about that? And what would that judgmental voice say about that? And we'll put a big. And in between. So in my most compassionate self, I know I'm a great mom. And my inner critic is saying that I really messed up by not remembering blank, Blank, blank. And so then being able to turn that around and doing that when somebody else has caused harm. So in my. You know, I do this a lot with individual adult clients I work with, and they look back at their childhoods. Okay. And my most judgmental self is saying, my mom. Or even just the truth is the reality is my mom messed up when she made this choice. You know, it harmed me.

Yeah.

And in my most compassionate self, I see how she was really overwhelmed after, you know, blank happened to her, or she didn't have the skills yet, or she. She now, you know, feels so embarrassed, and that's why she's not willing to own up to it. You know, there's. There are a lot of ways where we can hold the judgment for the behavior. We can still. We can still hold accountability.

Yeah.

And have compassion at the same time.

I love that. I love that. I love all of that. I mean, it's such. I think I might reach out to you as a therapist. I. I love the way that you think about relationships and the nuances and.

Yeah.

Which is your whole method. The end way. I know we're getting close to time. What do you hope this book will do for everyone who reads it and then for the world at large?

I hope that we can stop normalizing violence in our culture and stop normalizing the labeling and name calling that we've started to do, especially about our political opponents and creating enemies out of one another and realize that we're inevitably going to have to keep working together to some extent. And so we've got to find a way to do this. I hope that people will take the time to be more intentional with our language because, you know, dehumanizing language is a precursor to mass atrocities. That's what history has shown us. And so even if you don't feel like you're someone who is going out and actually causing violence, that is, you know, clear to the eye, recognizing what is happening internally in your judgment or some of the labeling that you're engaging in.

I love that. I like, that's what I love about the book is that the first half is really about, like, you as the individual, but then you go beyond that and you're like, okay, and how can you take this evolved, peaceful version of yourself and make the world a better place? I'm looking at the book right now on Amazon. Just some of the reviews. Transformational read. Assertive Peacemaking. A must read. A book for everyone in a divided world. This is also a business book. A must read for anyone struggling to connect in today's polarized world. You've got. Yeah, your book's got a five star rating across the board. Well, congratulations. I know as an author what a big deal it is to, to, to. To get your work into the world this way.

Thank you so much. I'm so excited about it.

And the best place to find the book is. I see it's on. On Amazon, Kindle and paperback. And then what's the best place for people to reach out to you if they want to. And then do you do virtual therapy as well for people that are located all over?

Yes, I do. So my therapy practice is called the and way therapy. Theandwaytherapy.com and then to find my book and any info on my speaking, you know, workshops that I do, it's theandwaypress.com theandwaypress.com yes. Any followers?

Theandwaytherapy.com that's great.

Yep.

Awesome. Cool. Well, Kelsey, again, congrats. I'm so grateful. I don't think it was an accident that God brought us together at Nectarine and yeah, I hope, I'm sure I run into you again there.

Yes, I hope so. Thank you.

All right. Keep making a difference in the world for so many people.

Same to you.