Healing Autoimmunity By Adding More Healthy Real Food Fats with Jen Fisch, Episode 5

Okay, welcome, welcome everyone. I'm here with Jen of Keto in the City. Thanks for joining us today, Jen.

Yeah, I'm super excited. Great to talk to you.

Me too. So part of this show, and since you're one of the very first interviews on the Keto for Life podcast, one of my goals is to really just share with people practical tips and knowledge. And you've been now living the keto lifestyle for quite a while and have experimented with many styles of eating over the years, similar to me. So if you could just maybe tell everybody kind of your first, how you got into keto and sort of a little bit about your history and background with that.

Yeah, sure. So yeah, it has been a long story of trying to figure out what works, but basically over 20 years ago, I came down with 2 autoimmune disorders within 6 months of each other. So psoriasis first and then psoriatic arthritis 6 months later. And so I kind of struggled with that for many years. Eventually I went to a doctor who was an MD, but who was actually an acupuncture doctor, and he was the first one that recommended I cut sugar out of my diet. Um, before that, I had never, you know, even thought about the connection between the food that I was eating and how I was feeling. Um, and no, none of my other doctors had ever mentioned it. So that is what kind of like turned the light on for me. Um, that was about 15 years ago, and I started on Atkins from there because that was popular at the time. I kind of went straight— I remember like going straight from that appointment to like a bookstore and just kind of like sat on the ground in the bookstore, like looking through this like Atkins book. And I was like looking at the list of foods that I could eat and I was like, okay, like, I think I can do this. And so I tried that and it actually like helped a lot. And so that was kind of the beginning. And then from there, just kept exploring good options and then finally landed on keto 5 years ago. I had never heard the word keto before, but it was just doing research and came across a couple things and really discovered that that added like healthy fat element along with the low carb was kind of like the perfect, at least for me, the perfect combination of like a way of eating that I could sustain.

So since you mentioned that, after your doctor— and first of all, kudos to your doctor at that point in time for actually saying something could be related to nutrition, right?

I know, he's still like the only doctor I've gone to that has really like believed in it.

Yeah, well, thank goodness for him because she got you onto the right path. Um, but what I kind of wanted to hear maybe a little bit more about is you mentioned that you started off with Atkins because that was what was kind of popular 15 years ago, or what could be found. And then you said you kind of found keto later and that the healthy fats help progress. So maybe if you could say some of the changes or things that you noticed in your beginning, which anybody who's done this for a while, you know, your keto that you did in the very beginning looks pretty different after you go down the road. So maybe you could just add a little more depth to that and like maybe what you notice differently, especially especially in relation to your autoimmune diseases when you made the switch to keto and maybe a little bit higher fat?

Yeah, I mean, the biggest difference is when I was doing more like Atkins low carb is I was always hungry. Like, I could eat like, you know, 3 pieces of chicken or salmon or something and still be hungry. Um, and so I remember that was what was hard about sustaining it for me is I didn't like that feeling. And, um, and that's why eventually during that time I had left the low-carb for a while, and I was like trying to figure out something else. And so the keto, in the beginning, you know, there wasn't any packaged foods really that were keto when I first started. That was, you know, 5 years ago. People didn't even— I mean, most people hadn't even heard of the word keto then. It's crazy how much it's grown since then. But, and so I was really focused on eating real foods, which I think was great. I think that's obviously the optimal way. I was using a lot more— I was probably using a lot more like dairy products in the beginning of my keto than I am now, but that kind of helped me be able to enjoy it. So the heavy creams or the cream cheeses, or the— I put MCT oil on like everything when I first started. Now I don't do that anymore. But those are some of the things in the beginning at least that I was like, oh, I can see how this makes you feel more full.

Or like anytime I wanted to something.

I would just eat an avocado, like keeping it pretty simple. Um, but you know, it definitely has transitioned over the years to kind of understanding like, oh, I don't— maybe I don't need that much fat. Like I don't have to drink butter coffee like every, you know, every single day. But I was super excited about butter coffee in the beginning, um, and all of that. So it's definitely changed, but that was kind of how I kicked it off and realized like, whoa, I just ate like a fairly small meal but packed healthy fats, and now I feel satisfied. So I don't have to eat like, you know, 3 pieces of chicken. I can just eat 1 now or whatever, right?

And because your autoimmune is psoriatic arthritis and then the psoriasis, which is my understanding of is mainly a skin condition, do you feel like— I mean, to me it almost seems like there's a logical connection between more healthy fats and it being better for your skin and stuff. So can you talk about how you first noticed the changes in both of those conditions as you started to eat that way?

Yeah, I think so. Both of them, yeah, they're— they both attack, um, your body from the inside, but one represents it more on your skin and one represents it by kind of like deteriorating the joints. And so for me, it was all about trying to find an anti-inflammatory way of eating. And so along with cutting out sugar, there were some other things along the way that I discovered that were also, you know, eating real food is a lot, you know, less inflammatory than eating a bunch of packaged food. So that was important, eating a high quality of food. So trying to, you know, buy organic things or grass-fed things or whatever, even though they're more expensive, was important to me because like I was trying to kill inflammation. And if I was eating keto but still eating lower quality food, then I would still be like adding inflammation into my body. So I focused on that a lot. Pretty instantly. I would say within a week or two, like, in terms of if you have visible psoriasis, which I did at the time, um, they noticeably get like lighter in color, like less angry looking, things like that. So there were some fairly like immediate reactions that your body— my body took, at least, um, when I switched over to this. And then it's not like I'm cured, um, I still take medication. Like, my way of eating is is like a part of like my healthy lifestyle. I always want to make sure, because a lot of people write to me like, you know, thinking that this has cured my condition, which it hasn't. It's just one of the controllables that like I can't really control if my body's going to respond to medication or not, but I can control like what I eat to help my process along.

Right. And since you mentioned healthy lifestyle, if you have been to Heal Nurse Ro or other people that have been around my site, it's sort of— it's not only focused on keto nutrition, which it is, because I think that's a big part of feeling well. And it's kind of like, to steal a phrase from Dr. Ken Berry, the proper human diet, um, because it's just what we've been evolved to eat. Um, so I think part of when you— especially when you have a disease process, like, what you put in your body as far as nutrition is just one thing. So, um, and that's kind of where the heal and the nourish and the grow part all comes together. So did you find that, um, For example, like, did you start implementing anything else like around sleep or stress management, or what were some of the other healthy lifestyle type things that you mentioned that you use to help with your autoimmune disorders?

Yeah, well, one of my favorite benefits of keto was the better quality sleep. That was another thing that I feel like most people notice really early on into their, like, keto. If they're new to keto, they start it within a couple of weeks. I feel like you do notice the better quality sleep. I used to be really restless at night and just kind of couldn't fall asleep for like an hour or 2 hours or whatever, just like my body trying to come down, I guess, from the day. And once I started keto, like, I don't have that problem at all anymore. Like, when it's time to go to bed, I go to bed and I fall asleep, which has been great. And that's really helpful. I mean, I have— I usually stay up late working. That's just kind of— I'm a creative director at an ad agency. I'm a single mom. Like, I have all the keto stuff going on, so I have a lot going on. So That really helps me a lot to be able to recover at night. Stress management, I'm pretty good. I'm not really a person to get super stressed, so that's probably good. Um, the one piece I could definitely be better at, especially in 2020, now 2021, is the exercise piece of it. Uh, now that I work from home, I feel like I just sit in front of the computer all day, so I need to be better about that part. Um, but yeah, overall I just think looking at it as like a complete lifestyle and how it can help in all of those ways is the best way to look at it. Um, and to look at it as a long-term lifestyle versus like a short-term, like, try, try to lose weight really quick or whatever that might be.

No, I love that because that's what I try to help people with all the time. I think, you know, a big part of making a lifestyle change like this is mindset, right? So if you look at it as you just want to lose 20 pounds so you can go on vacation or something, that's going to make it a lot harder to sustain long term. Whereas if you really look at it and you have probably more reason than a lot of people to do it because of your previous health issues. And I have previous health issues as well, which is part of the reason I'm very committed to it. It almost makes it, I think, almost easier when you have that mindset about it as opposed to a weight loss mindset about it. Would you have anything else to add to that?

Yeah, no, I agree. Whenever people ask me like, how can you have been keto for, you know, 5 years or whatever, I'm like, well, I have my why. Like, my why is I want to feel good. And like, I know I feel I feel better when I eat this way. So it makes it, I mean, I'm not gonna say it just makes it easy all the time, but it makes it a lot easier 'cause it's attached to me knowing that I can function better as a mom, I can function better as a person. Like I will feel physically feel better, mentally feel better. So yeah, that's just so much, at least for me, a more powerful connection to just keep going.

Yeah, completely agree. And since you mentioned your daughter, I think it is your daughter, right?

Mm-hmm.

I remember, like I said, I've listened to previous interviews. One of the things that I think people find challenging about keto, or some— one of the things I've heard people say to me is like, oh, I can't do keto because my kids will never eat that way, or I don't want to make 3 or 4 meals. And I know that in one of the interviews I heard with you before, you kind of talked about your daughter and kind of your approach, um, with your way of eating with her. Can you kind of share a little bit more about that? And I'm sure it's probably evolved now because I think she's like pretty much full-on teenager now at this point, right? Yeah.

Um, but yeah, when I started this whole journey, she was like 11 or 10 or whatever. And I just made her, you know, that was kind of my goal with keto cooking. And that was the fun, like creative challenge for me was like, okay, I want to start eating this way. Um, but I'm not going to make her separate meals. Like I'm going to make meals that like she would enjoy and I would enjoy and that kind of fit this lifestyle. And when, you know, when we go out to eat or she goes to a friend's house or wherever, she can eat, you know, whatever she wants. But I want to cook like low carb keto meals at home. And so She's been my taste tester for all of my recipes. And so I always decide that if she likes it, then anybody can like it. And I get so many messages from people saying, you know, my non-keto husband, this is his favorite meal or whatever it might be. And those are always like my favorite comments because like you don't have to think about keto food as a different way of eating. Like everybody eats like, you know, steak and vegetables or fish and vegetables or, you know, whatever it might be. It doesn't need to be like super complicated. Now, you know, they have cauliflower rice everywhere. So it's really easy to make those swap-outs. I mean, if you absolutely want to make like one additional side for your family, but you don't have to make a whole different meal, which is something that I've always loved. And for me, I just keep my home keto and then, you know, outside of the world, you know, she wants to pick something else, she can. But it hasn't been a problem. And the food's delicious. I mean, most kids love keto food, especially the stuff that has cheese on it or, you know, whatever it might be. To eat great stuff. So, uh, I don't think that's a— I don't think that should be a big issue. Um, and I don't think people feel like— should feel like they have to cook whole separate meals for their family.

Yeah, I totally agree. I always just— I mean, I'll just be honest, I always kind of think that's a cop-out. I'm like, you really just don't want to give up your bread and pasta, is what it is. Or they don't think they can because they just haven't experienced it yet, right? Because— but I think it goes back to what you're saying, like, once you experience how amazing you can feel without that stuff, it makes it— and again, if you have your why, whatever that is, and I— again, with mindset, with people, I wish they'd say, so I can run around with my grandkids in several years, or, you know, make it something that's more tangible instead of just like trying to look good in a swimsuit or something. And then I think it makes all those decisions a little bit easier. Not, not super easy, like you said, but at least it's like on the right track.

Yeah, agreed, agreed.

Um, and so you mentioned your recipes, and so just in case— I don't know who wouldn't have heard of you by now, but just in case they didn't, tell us about your cookbooks, because I think at last count you had at at least 5. I don't know if there's more on the horizon or what you have up your sleeve, but maybe you could chat a little bit about that and how, um, I'm assuming since you're a creative person, a creative director, it was a sort of a natural progression for you to make cookbooks.

But I mean, it's nothing I honestly ever thought about doing, but when they approached me for the first one, which was the 5 Ingredient book, um, I— that was probably like 3 years ago. So I— when they called me, I honestly thought they were calling me to, um, review other cookbooks.

I was like, wait, what are What are you asking me?

Like, yeah, sure, send them to me, I'll read them. And they were like, no, we want you to write one. And I was like, really? So I was— it was not something that I was like set out to do or expecting to do. But, but yeah, cooking is— was kind of like my favorite piece at the beginning of my keto journey was being able to try to figure out recipes where I could still eat all the flavors that I like. I'm like the least picky eater. I like to eat everything. So, you know, like, how can I take these flavors and try to make something keto friendly? So that was really fun. The 5-ingredient one. I honestly never expected anyone to buy it. Like, I thought maybe my mom and like my friends would buy it, but I could just say, like, when I was like 80 years old, like, hey, I wrote a cookbook one day or whatever. So, um, but it ended up doing really well. And it's really crazy because now it's in all these other languages that I never like know about. So like people, like recently a woman tagged me in like a Russian book and I was like, is that my book? And she was like, yeah. So So it's kind of cool how it's like made its way into a whole bunch of different countries now and taken on different, you know, looks and whatever. So that's cool. And then yes, I wrote a couple more after that. My most recent one was an Instant Pot book. So Keto in an Instant. So all Instant Pot was something that I hadn't really played around with until maybe a year and a half, 2 years ago. And so that was another fun way because I'm all about easy. So there's really nothing easier than throwing everything in an Instant Pot and like walking away and like coming back 20 minutes later and it's already cooked something amazing. So, so I love that one. That one is probably my favorite right now because every recipe has a picture, which I didn't get to do in my first few books. Like, oh, interesting. You know, for production cost reasons, they kept the photos minimal, but this one has a photo for every recipe, which I know a lot of people like to see, like what it's supposed to turn out like. So I was excited about that.

Yeah, for sure. And I think You know, one of the things, and again, making, you know, keto sustainable and fun, and particularly if you're cooking a lot of the meals yourself, which it definitely is better and easier to do if you can. But having that sort of the plating and things too, where it's like, you know, they always used to say you eat first with your eyes. And so that's no different with keto, right? Like, how can I plate this to make it look really beautiful even though I don't have like 3 sides or whatever it is to go with it? Totally.

Yeah. Yeah, that's it. I agree. I'm a visual person too. So that was exciting for me. And, you know, I know a lot of people don't love to cook. It's maybe not their favorite thing. It's not like you change your eating lifestyle and instantly, like, become, like, somebody who wants to become a chef or whatever. So I've always thought that was really important too, is keeping the ingredients super simple, making them ingredients that you can find at any grocery store. Because I live in Los Angeles, so I have access to, like, every grocery store, but not everyone is in that situation. So just making really simple, easy things that you can find, simple things you probably already have or probably already eat, like nothing crazy. Um, and that's why the 5 Ingredient Book I think has been so popular is because it's just like super— it doesn't get any easier than like 5 main ingredients, which sometimes people will be like, there's 7 ingredients on here. I'm like, well, that's salt and pepper, like basic pantry things don't count, but like 5 main ingredients. So, um, really easy for anybody to make, which I loved.

Yeah. And what do you— so since you like the quick and easy thing, um, and I do as well, I— when I— I mean, sometimes when I develop recipes, it'll be a little bit fancier, just like for the website or whatever. But in general, what I eat on a day-to-day basis, quite often nowadays since having read The Carnivore Code, it's just a piece of meat on a plate. So because carnivore has kind of gotten a lot of popularity and lip service lately, I'm just curious, is that something that you've experimented with at all, or do you have any thoughts on that? And it's kind like, for me, it's almost the ultimate in simplicity. If people don't like to cook or don't like to make recipes, it's like, well, just cook yourself a steak and you're good to go.

So, um, simple. I haven't done it yet. Um, I know a lot of people, especially autoimmune people, do like the carnivore, and that's kind of— I've always thought about, like, if for some reason I'm not feeling good anymore with the way that I'm eating right now, maybe I'll try that. That would be my next step probably, but I haven't done it yet. I mean, I could eat steak every day, I'm sure, so I would be happy with it. But, um, but I haven't ventured into that. I mean, I do really like, you know, vegetables and the side dishes and berries and things like that. So I think it would be a little, uh, tricky for me at first, but it's definitely easy if you're not looking to get creative in the kitchen, right?

And yeah, I haven't— I haven't tried it yet. I keep saying I'm gonna do a trial of it for at least a few days. Um, and I think, you know, one of your points about the berries and the salads and stuff like that. I think I could much more easily do a trial of it in the winter, like sometime soon, sometime soon before spring hits, because yeah, I still do have that like craving for just like a good salad, even though, you know, some people might argue that you don't really even need that. So it's just kind of interesting too.

I like the crunch of it, like I like fresh. Yeah, I would have a hard time, but I'm sure I could do it for like a month or so if I needed to like kind of do a reset. But, um, I mean, it's great. I think No matter what the lifestyle is, I'm glad that people are finding ways to feel better and healthy. And I, you know, someone who doesn't think the same thing works for everyone, so like finding what works for you but also is sustainable for you, I think is amazing.

And to go back to that one final point about, you know, finding what works for you, have you found that— I mean, as we were talking about, first you found Atkins and then you found keto and you found that higher fat helps. I think you also mentioned that maybe you do less dairy now. Have there been other tweaks, uh, that you found along the way that help you feel better? And again, like, it's different for everybody, but I think just sharing, you know, what has worked for you or what has worked for others, um, that you know of might help people just give them a new idea of something to try if they haven't optimized their experience yet. Yeah.

Um, yeah, so I still eat dairy. I just eat a lot less of it. So like, I put almond milk in my coffee now. I don't put the half and half or the heavy cream anymore. Which I used to, which is delicious, but I just kind of cut back on some of that. I cut back on— I still try to be mostly gluten-free. I did definitely do eat like low-carb tortillas and some of those kinds of things that are not gluten-free, but I know the more gluten-free I am, the better I feel. When I wasn't eating low-carb before keto, I was gluten-free for like 8 months because I was having a lot of like— they thought maybe I had Crohn's or some other autoimmune thing. And so I was like, that's how I went. I was like, I need to go back to food, I need to go back to like what I'm eating. And so I know that that's something for me. I discovered throughout keto that nightshades are not my friend. And so trying not— I used to eat a lot, like I would eat like grape tomatoes as like a snack. I love them so much, but then I realized like a half hour later my hands would like like ache. Um, and so I think, you know, for me at least, trying to simplify the way that I was eating allowed some of those things that were bothering me to be able to come up to the surface more and be easier to identify versus just like, I just feel inflamed, being able to be like, okay, now I'm on keto, I've kind of gotten rid of that, you know, baseline inflammation. So now I can really discover what those little things here and there are that are bothering me. And tweak along the way. So it doesn't mean I never eat a tomato. I do, but I am definitely not going to eat tomato soup every day, or, you know, like, whatever that might be. And so I can be more mindful about that. Um, or, you know, if I do eat it and I can be like, okay, yeah, hands still hurt afterwards, okay, still a thing. So, um, just being able to kind of like recognize that and go from there. Otherwise, I can't think of any like major. I think, you know, when a lot of the keto snacks started coming out, it was really easy to want to like eat all of them or like try them all or whatever. And I've moved away from the majority of them at this point and kind of just stuck to real food with a couple exceptions. I love my ChocZero. I'm not giving that up. This is not— this is a packaged food, I guess, but I've become obsessed with bone broth during my keto journey. I love bone broth so much. So some of those pieces I've like added more into as I've gone along.

But now, since you mentioned the packaged foods and the keto stuff, you're right how many more things there are out nowadays. And, you know, not to say that you can never— I still kind of have this idea in my head that's like a treat should still be a treat, right? So we're like— when I was eating kind of healthy the way I considered healthy to be before, like I still wouldn't eat a donut every day. I might eat it like once every couple of weeks or so, or I don't have dessert every night, you know what I mean? Although the, the ChocZero does make that hard to not have dessert every night.

Um, especially during the holidays, they had like so many goodies and I was like, oh my gosh, this is getting bad. Yeah.

I mean, they do have a great product. Um, are there other, because I do think initially when it, when people are transitioning that it is nice that there are those kind of foods that can help. I, I am totally with you that I just think the way to feel optimal is to eat whole real foods, but sometimes in that transition phase you might need a little help. So are there other things that you've kind of experimented with over time that you could recommend to people that are, you know, that don't seem to bother your, um, you know, that inflame you or anything like that, but they're still like kind of more of a convenience thing?

The convenience foods, um, I mean, I think one, you have to be careful with them, but nuts are like a really great convenience food, right?

I mean, that's still whole food.

Yeah, it's a real food, but you could get them at the 7-Eleven, or like if you're on a road trip, you can find them really easily. So that's one that I would always go to, um, whether it was like macadamia nuts or sunflower seeds or just something, because sometimes you just want to like snack on something. Now I think it's easier because now you can find more like moon cheese or pork rinds or that kind of stuff. Um, I always would go to Starbucks. So I go to Starbucks like every day, but like, um, and they have string cheese or guacamole packs or the hard-boiled eggs, you know, different things that you can find, like if you're in a bind where you can be like, okay, I can grab that and I'll be fine, I think are the best ones. I'm not a big like shake person in terms of like protein shakes or like the on-the-go shakes. I know there are quite a few now and there's definitely some that are keto-friendly. I guess I would always look at keto on a package now and like question it. Like I would definitely like read what's in it because now that it's become like a buzzword. I feel like they just kind of plaster it on a lot of stuff.

Yeah, totally, totally agree with that one. And, and even if it's technically like, you know, keto-friendly, some of the ingredients are just, you know, I, I do, I definitely, I, I know my bias. I definitely err on the side of real whole foods. But, um, some of the ingredients when I just read, I'm like, nope, not putting that in my body. Like, I just don't think it's gonna be a good thing.

Sometimes until you try it, you don't know what it's gonna or how it's gonna make you feel. But most of them don't make you feel so good. Afterwards.

So yeah, my husband—

real quick.

Oh yeah, my husband in particular has that. It's like chicory root fiber and that inulin fiber and stuff. He— his system does not like that. I mean, I almost feel—

you're worried about chicory root fiber because I ate an ice cream, um, that had it in it. I didn't know it had it in it. I was just trying a new like keto ice cream. And, um, and so I ate a good amount of it and then I kind of waited. I don't know, I was just watching TV, but all of a sudden my face went numb. Wow, like tingling. And I was like, what is happening to me? And I heard one of my friends, he actually like helps develop like foods, and he had told me before like don't eat anything with chicory root in it or whatever. And I looked at the back and I was like, it's gotta be the chicory root.

Oh my gosh. So do you think that was an immune response or is that just like something that's well known that anybody has that kind of response.

I've never heard any— I mean, if someone else has had that response to Korea, please like DM me. Yeah, but, um, I should Google it. I didn't, but I was just like, what is happening to me? And then I just like threw the ice cream away. I was like, okay, that's not gonna be something I'm gonna eat again. I don't think it was an immune thing. It was just like, obviously my body— maybe I hadn't had it before and it just definitely didn't like it, whatever it was.

Yeah, well, you're not alone. I can tell. I know at least one other person that has that experience. And sometimes for me I don't ever— I've never had the frozen face or the tingly face thing, but I have had just like a lot of different like gastrointestinal stomach issues. We'll leave it at that. It's like, it's definitely not a good thing. Like, I would say if you are gonna try those types of things, make sure you're at home for a while.

Like the malitol candies or all those sugar alcohols, like those are nasty.

Well, I'm glad you brought that up because that probably is a good tip, a practical tip for people to be looking for. And it's one of the things I'm pretty passionate about is preferred sweeteners. And so if you can just like expand on that a little bit and maybe tell us what your favorite sweeteners are and what seems to do the best for like your immune functioning kind of thing.

Yeah, I mean stevia, monk fruit, I like. I at home I mostly use erythritol when I do baking. I don't mind the, the cooling factor. I know some people don't like it. It doesn't bother me. So that's mostly what I bake with, but allulose um, I mean, definitely has come on in the last couple years. It's in a lot of the packaged things now, I would say. I don't cook with it, but, um, I don't mind it. Um, I know it's in a lot of, a lot of things. Um, other than that, I, or I used to use xylitol like back in the day, uh, in the beginning. Um, I don't mind that either. I know it's not good for people with pets. I don't have any animals, so, um, but just the fact that it it's not good for pets. I don't use it in my recipes just in case people who are following them, um, use it. So those are kind of the main ones for me. Um, anything else with like some crazy name, I typically stay away from. Um, and I think even something like an allulose, it takes a lot of, um, not a lot, but it takes understanding to understand like how it's calculated in macros and things like that. So usually it throws people off. When it has to like show up as sugar or whatever. So just something to kind of look for. I think most brands that use it do a pretty good job of explaining on the package, but I know that's something I, when it first came out, a lot of people had questions on.

Yeah, and one of the things that I've seen some research on that's just interesting about allulose in particular is that it, it, there's a couple studies that show that it actually takes glucose out of your body with it. So while as it's being metabolized, metabolized, So it might be like arguably the best one for people that are using keto for blood sugar management issues like diabetes or just borderline high, that allulose might be one of their better options for that. Yeah, same thing with, um, oh, there's that— it's a supplement that starts with a B. It's kind of like an herbal metformin. Can you think of it? I can't think. Berberine.

Oh, I don't know about that one.

Yeah, that's also pretty interesting too, and I've heard a couple of like really good docs talk about those. So for people that have serious blood sugar issues, definitely lean towards the ones that you just mentioned. And I would say, I would add to that, if you're doing it for blood sugar, maybe allulose could be your best bet. But, you know, obviously do your own research and Google. But at some point, I am going to write about the sweeteners because it's amazing to me how many really bad ones there are out there in products that are called quote-unquote sugar-free or keto-friendly. But they actually raise your blood sugar almost just as much as real sugar.

Wow. Yeah, I think that is a good learning for people, and they're not always easy to find. I mean, I think they're getting easier at some grocery stores, but definitely the first couple years I was keto, like, you had to order it online. I couldn't find it in the grocery store or whatever. So, and then I think people will see like coconut sugar or these that are used in other like healthy recipes or whatever and think maybe they can use that. So it's definitely something people need to be educated on for sure. Just be careful about what they use. But you know, once you find something, I mean, I don't really mix a whole bunch of different sweeteners. Once I found one I liked, I just kind of stick with it.

So yeah, and that's, that's a good tip too, is just finding what agrees with you, and then you always have a fallback or something that you know is going to make you feel okay, unlike the chicory stuff.

Yeah, see, I didn't know until that one night.

That's funny.

Well, for now, I look for it.

Yeah, now you know to look for it. Um, well, so that people that are watching on video will see— and this is totally un-Keto related because I, I've already taken enough of your time, but I just kind of like giving a little bit of flavor of, you know, obviously what else is going on in your life besides Keto and writing cookbooks. I mean, all food related, but I'm looking at your living room and you have some really beautiful plants back there, and, um, I'm also a plant fanatic, and I think a lot of people during this whole lockdown and COVID thing, I've been seeing a lot of new plant moms out there. So yeah, so as for a different topic, maybe just like tell us about your favorite plant in that room because they're all so pretty.

Well, the one over here actually was kind of a funny story because my— so when I went to work every day back when we went to the office, um, I worked in downtown LA, and I was at the Downtown LA Whole Foods, which has like a really pretty little flower area like most Whole Foods do, and they had that plant. And I don't know that much about plants, like I didn't know what it was called or whatever, but I was with like one of my coworkers and she's like, "That's a corn plant," I think is what she called it. And I was like, "I don't know what it is about that plant, but I love that plant." And so I was like, "I wanna buy it." And so I guess it had just come in and like one of the, the guy who worked the flowers, This is my new favorite plant. I was like, well, can I buy it from you? So he was like, yeah. So I hauled it around in my car, um, that whole day and then like had to drive it home, like, which is like an hour in LA traffic. And I had it in the front seat, like, holding it so like it didn't fall over. So that was like my impulse buy plant. Um, so I've managed— that was like probably 2 years ago or so. So I've managed to keep it alive. Yes. Um, which is nice. Um, I have big windows like in the front of my house, so they get plenty of sunshine. And it's definitely been like me figuring out like how to— how much to water them, how much not to water them, or whatever. But they seem to be doing pretty well these days. So the other one right behind it actually was also a Whole Foods purchase. Something about going to Trader Joe's and Whole Foods because they have them like right by the entrance, like I always like impulse buy plants.

So Well, much like figuring out what works for us, what we're eating, the same thing with plants, right?

I know I have one right behind my laptop here that, um, has like doubled in size in the last few months. So every once in a while, like, the leaves like come into my Zoom.

Awesome, love it.

I like it. Yeah, it's nice to see that I don't kill— I feel like I used to kill every plant, like I wasn't a great plant person, so I'm always proud when they actually grow. Awesome.

Well, Jen, can you tell everybody before we sign off for today where they can find you online? What's the best way to reach you? All of your websites, all of the social media goodness.

Sure. Yeah. So my Instagram is ketointhecity_. So there's a little underscore at the end there. And then my website's ketointhecity.com. So I post, you know, tons of recipes on there, at least a couple every week. And then I send emails too with like different recipes and newsletters, so you can always sign up for that. But those are the best places to hang out with me. I'm also on Twitter and Facebook and all those, but I spend the most time probably— I've been really like focusing on my blog during quarantine, like just because we have a little bit more time and making sure I'm getting people recipes and info that they need. So that's one spot that I've definitely been working on as part of my like, how can I like learn more during this quarantine period?

So— Right, well, and when you're not cooking, commuting an hour each way in LA traffic, right? You could suddenly have more time in your day.

I know, I'm like, wow, I have like no mileage on my car. Any stress I actually didn't stress out too much during traffic unless I was late trying to get somewhere to pick up my daughter. That's like the most stressful part. On the way to work, I'd be like, I'll just listen to music. On the way home from work, I'd always be like, oh my God, I have to get home. So that's really nice to not have to deal with that anymore. Yeah, I love it. Even after quarantine now, I'm gonna work work from home. So I'm excited about that.

Oh, awesome. That's fantastic. Well, Jen, I just want to thank you again so much for coming and sharing all your knowledge. And people can find your recipes and your cookbooks like you mentioned. Any final last keto thought or bit of advice or anything that we didn't touch on that you want to say?

I think for most people, you know, I think people are really hard on themselves a lot, especially when experimenting with a new way of eating and getting the hang of it. And, you know, sometimes can get overwhelmed by all of the macros or testing or all of the different things that they see like online. And I just want to be here for people and just don't get stressed out by it. Just like start switching out things that you're eating, like enjoy the process, like ask questions. I'm always available for to answer people's questions too. So I would say just like be kind to yourself and just allow yourself to kind of like have a transitional period and, you know, Remember why you want to feel better and just kind of keep connecting it back to that.

Awesome. Well, awesome advice all around. And thank you again so much for taking the time to join us today.

I really appreciate it. Yeah, it was great chatting with you. Thanks everyone. Bye, Jen. Bye.