Thermography for Health and Early Disease Detection: 78

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Heal, Nourish, Grow podcast. I am back today with Guy Odishaw. He is— you're actually the first guest I've ever had on twice, which is a great distinction. Excited for our show today. And I was just— after I hit the record button, I was just telling Guy that I'm glad his logo is showing because as you heard in his bio, he is part of Cerebral Fit. He talks all things brain health, which is one of my favorite topics. But today we're gonna chat about something slightly different. It, it actually came up in our conversation either before or we, after we recorded last time. And I said, I feel like a lot of people don't know about this topic and I would love for you to come back and share this information. And so it's all about thermal imaging. So I'm not gonna say too much about it other than I went and did it so that we could talk about this. But first I'll let Guy tell you about what it is, what we use it for, and why it's not standard of standard practice to use this imaging because it's kind of interesting. So, I'll let you take it away from here.

Right. Thank you. And, thank you for the opportunity to come back and talk with you and for going off and trying my crazy idea and the whole thing. It was very brave of you. So, this falls kind of in the general area of bioelectric medicine as I define it, which is really when we use technology in the area of healthcare. So, it's a very big umbrella. But here, what to say about thermal imaging? So, I just want to say a little bit about imaging in general. So, most of us, we're all familiar with X-ray and then, of course, MRI. And then, depending on how involved in the healthcare system you've been, you've maybe heard of a CAT scan a PET scan. If you're really, in a sense, unfortunate, you've heard about a SPECT scan because it's a very specific scan for the brain. And then, there's the kind of neuroimaging we do in our clinic, which is qEEG, so EEG neuroimaging. So, we have all of these different devices for doing neuroimaging and then probably, well, ultrasound, I shouldn't leave that out. So, a host, that I haven't mentioned, but these are common ones. And thermal imaging goes right in there with all of these other kinds of imaging. When we think of MRI as maybe kind of our gold standard thing, everybody thinks, well, an MRI, like that's the top of the food chain. But there are things that MRI does well, and then there's things that MRI is terrible at. And so you'd only want to use MRI for what it's good for and not for for the things it isn't good for. And an example of this would be like MRI is really good at detail of anatomy, but it isn't really good for function. Now there is functional MRI, so that's a little bit of a caveat there. But still, if we think of something like a concussion, MRI is, is not good at finding concussion unless the concussion has risen to the level of anatomical damage. Then okay. And then if we have anatomical changes, it can spot it, but even then it just spots the anatomical change versus say something like EEG, which is better at looking at function. So, it's highly, you know, in the time domain, very good at spotting brain function. So, we can see functional changes which may correlate with concussion. So, it's the whole thing of using the proper imaging for what it does well and then not for what it doesn't do well. So, thermal imaging is basically, I mean, it's a camera that is detecting temperature changes on the skin. So, when you go for thermal imaging, you're just standing in front of a camera, looks like a regular camera, and it's just going to take a picture of you. And so, that's nice. And there's, you know, there's no contact, there's no harmful rays, whether it's X-rays or in MRI, it's the magnet, or if you're doing a CAT scan or PET scan, and you might have to take a tracer, and then you're taking a radioactive something. So that's not necessarily great for you. In thermal imaging, you're just having a picture taken. So there's, there's no downside. It's not very expensive. So you're not paying $1,500 or more out of pocket for your MRI. You're spending, you know, more in the hundreds for your thermal imaging. So, but again, what it does well is it detects temperature changes at the skin level and, and then a little bit deeper than the skin. But the deeper you go into the body, the less reliable the, the thermal imaging is because that temperature has to migrate to the surface. So it diffuses. So a deep source of heat or cold will look more diffuse on the surface, whereas something on the surface could be quite accurate. So that's what thermal imaging does well, and one should use thermal imaging for that and not for anything else.

Yeah, and one of the things that I think, I'm sure we'll get to this at some point, but I think people are kind of maybe wondering at this point, well, why would I use this? And so the context of how this came up in my previous conversation with Guy were two reasons. Somehow we got on the subject of I know there being a lot of cancer in my family, and one of the applications that you mentioned that this could be really good for is detecting breast cancer. So very early on, it's, it's much better at detecting, um, things early, or if someone has previously had cancer, it might be a tool that you wanna use to, you know, follow up on yourself a year, 2, 3 years down the road and just make sure that things kind of aren't, you know, progressing in a negative way. So maybe you can say a little bit more about that in the context of using it as a preventative.

Tool.

And, um, and then the other area of interest that we were kind of talking about is people that have chronic pain. So I was mentioning how I have this ongoing jaw pain. We were talking about it in relation to dental work. So maybe we could just kind of focus on those two things. There's probably many, many other applications, but I think that those are two that are probably easy for people to understand and easy to see how they could, you know, maybe this is something they might want to try. Sure.

So, one of the most common uses is, again, kind of breast cancer detection, ongoing maintenance. And so, again, just to say a little bit about what's happening in the body that would make thermal imaging even be relevant. So, what happens early in the process, even before there's a tumor, the that the body is moving in the direction of forming a tumor, those cells that kind of disconnect from the local, uh, mind or the, the local activity, uh, say in the breast, so it's breast tissue that are, are no longer functioning as, uh, breast cells, but have, are now gonna be the beginning of a tumor. They're gonna call into place, uh, increased circulation because they have a higher metabolic demand. And it's, it's on one level, it's that change in circulation and circulatory system that can be detected by thermal imaging. So just the increase of blood flow, blood is warm. So it's going to bring more, uh, uh, temperature to that area. That's what gets detected. So one of the first changes that can be spotted thermal imaging in breast cancer is the change in the circulatory system. And now the actual cells that are, you know, in potentially heading in the direction of becoming a tumor, there, there's, there are too few of them and too small to even be called a tumor at that point, or even to be detected by standard, uh, if you went for, um, uh, a mammogram, chances are at this early stage, they're too small to show up. And again, this is one of the advantages to thermal imaging is it has the potential, and I want to say potential, there's a lot of factors here that can, you know, pro-con around this that maybe we'll touch on. So just take everything as these are possibilities, statistical possibilities that lean in the direction given the pro-con of it, the safety, the cost of it that in general makes it worth doing. Right. So, um, the catching it before it really has risen to the level of being a tumor where it's still very susceptible to changes in diet and lifestyle to be able to change the course of those tissues and move them back into being healthy breast tissue and not continuing down the path of becoming a tumor. And, and so to me, that's the biggest advantage of it. Is that early detection. And if you look at the literature, there's quite a range. And, and again, take everything as statistical possibilities and not absolute, but you're looking at the possibility of picking up something that could potentially become a tumor about 8 years earlier than it presenting as a tumor. And then we know from the research that there are people who've had thermograms that showed a positive who did nothing, and that that did eventually turn into a tumor that had to be treated in the standard allopathic cancer process. So we have these longitudinal studies that show that there is truth to this because it's actually turned out this way in many, many, many hundreds, thousands of people's lives. So the ideal is we catch it that early, we make diet and lifestyle changes, and we avoid the unwanted, you know, arising of a cancer altogether. Or catching it anywhere along the line, earlier is always better, right? So it may be progressed enough that there is a tumor there, but that thermogram is what gets you to go and have a mammogram, which then they confirm maybe with a biopsy. And now you're into treatment, possibly, uh, you know, years before you would have otherwise, because again, you're detecting it sooner in its life cycle, and it may not have been palpable even if you were doing a physical breast exam. To notice it yet. So early detection. And then the other place is, so let's say, you know, you've, you've had a tumor, you've had it removed, you've had whatever, chemo, radiation, surgery, whatever the process was. Now you're on the other side of it. And now you want to kind of keep an eye on things. So again, thermal imaging becomes a safe and affordable way to do those preventative checks on a more regular basis because the medical community has its pacing of how often you do a mammogram and then it kind of drops off over time. But the patient might have a sense of kind of anxiety, which I see this, you know, you know, pretty much 100% in my post-cancer clients is the ongoing fear of it returning. And so this is a way to kind of give you a little bit of a sense of kind of control and measure and being proactive. And you're not just waiting for the scary news, you're doing something. And again, it's a very affordable way to do it. And it is medically helpful, can be medically helpful, but even if it isn't, if it's just psychologically helpful, that is highly valuable to the person going through this process.

Yeah, I can— there's a huge application there and just, you know, to share a little background with people. So because I do have that in my family and other risk factors for other cancers in my family. So for example, they've done my risk calculation and I probably have about a, you know, depends on the model you use. These are all algorithms and all taking into account a lot of different things, but something like a 22 to 25% chance of breast cancer in my lifetime. And I, on the yearly basis, I want to say it's like, I don't know, 5% or something like that, but increased incidence over the general population. Um, basically a 1 in 4 lifetime chance. So this is a big reason that I do a lot of the crazy health-related things that I do, cuz I'm, I'm aware of this and I'm trying to do the best I can to mitigate some of that. And so when you go to a high-risk breast cancer group, which I had to establish a new one here in Salt Lake, their protocol for that is really a mammogram every 6 months and an MRI every 6 months. And because of what you said before, they each have their pros and cons. Um, for example, mammograms are awesome, but they're not great on dense breast tissue. And then you have the MRI, but you do have to take a tracer. They think what you're taking is safe, but they don't really know. Um, and then so adding something like this where it's literally zero risks, it gives you peace of mind. I think this is a hugely valuable tool and, you know, I'm, I'm kind of going through this process right now when I'm reestablishing this, like thinking about, okay, am I going to use this as part of a tool?, you know, maybe I cut back the MRI with the tracer thing once every 2 years or something, because I'm also doing this as an adjunct, for example. So it's just, there's a lot of different ways to think about it, but I think that the mental aspect that you mentioned about it is absolutely a huge part of it. Because it, if nothing else, it makes you feel like you're being proactive. It's not super expensive. I'll share with everybody, I found the one I found here in Salt Lake to do the thermal imaging. They were having a deal. I just happened to catch it at the right time. So they did a full body for $200. Um, I think guy that you shared with me, you probably see anything from $200 to $500 depending on if they're doing just breast imaging or doing the full image. But, you know, in the grand scheme of things, I know, I realize everybody cannot necessarily afford that. But if you have a serious reason to do it, it's often significantly cheaper than some of the other options. So I think the mental health aspect is definitely huge. And I would love to hear, so when you're working with patients, are people in your clinic and they have this history of either increased risk or they've had breast cancer already. You mentioned, you know, trying to make things healthier, doing lifestyle changes, doing, you know, maybe different things with exercise. Can you share maybe some of the things that are maybe general recommendations? Obviously, this is not medical advice, but healthy, healthy behaviors people want to do when they see, oh, I have this area of increased You know, it could be an early sign of something. What do I do with that information?

So I want to just loop back one step and talk about the oral side, and then we'll kind of jump into the, you know, what to, what to do about it. Yeah. So, so the oral piece and the breast piece are not disconnected, although they can be standalone, but surprising the link between an oral infection. So let's say a root canal that has become chronically infected. And a person can be, you know, subclinical in the symptomatic presentation. So maybe the person has a sensitive tooth, but they're like, oh, you know, I had a root canal and it's just that. There's a lot of ways to just kind of wave it off as not a big deal and you just go through your day, you know, a little bit of a sore tooth, but so what? But what's happening in there, like, and we see this in the thermal imaging, is people go in and that, you know, their, their jaw will be just bright red and then this streak running down their neck and then down the sternum and into a breast. And that's the, the infection moving through the lymphatic system that's now going down and pooling in the breast. There's a strong correlation between that and breast cancer. And so again, one of the reasons why we recommend the thermal imaging is to check out the oral cavity to make sure that you're not one of those people. And you may not have that condition happening, but a person may have, again, a much smaller kind of smoldering infection in a root, and they didn't know about it. Again, 'cause it can be non-symptomatic at all, or just so mild that you don't think about it. And then, and then you, you see it and then you can do something about it. So that's again, the value of why have it done. And, you know, generally I do recommend people do the whole body because as you know, we talked briefly in yours, there was, you know, maybe a reason to think about some thyroid. But also, you know, it can pick up neuropathies in the arms and in the legs, you know, related to, to like a diabetic neuropathy or a post-chemoneuropathy or a, a, you know, a, back, you know, a disc impingement neuropathy. And, and these things also are important to find because in the case of a, a limb kind of getting poor neural information, the tissues aren't getting good instructions. And this is going to lead them open to something like a carpal tunnel or a cubital tunnel or, you know, any number of, of degenerative changes because those tissues aren't getting the information that they need to continue doing their function on an optimal basis. And so we have a degradation of health. So thermal imaging is going to show you a lot of things, and we're going to talk today mostly kind of focusing on the, on the breast health and oral health. So if The, uh, thermal imaging shows a, either a hotspot, so probably inflammation, infection, inflammation, something like that. It's high metabolic activity or a blue area, which is low metabolic activity. Um, those are basically the two findings we're looking for. There's too much of something or not enough of something. And then of course we wanna look in and find out like more detail around the something. And then how to treat it. And I'd say like probably the most common way that this goes is, is then a person looking to functional medicine. And so, you know, that again, a visit to your functional medicine provider, but that also could be, you know, a Chinese medicine provider, an Ayurvedic medicine provider, but somebody who's going to look at kind of diet, lifestyle, and then some type of nutritional support that isn't merely food-based, but is into supplements or herbs, something of that nature. So that's going to be the number one is going to be lifestyle, diet, supplements. And go ahead.

Just to backtrack a little, I was just thinking when you're saying this, because I'm like, yeah, if you take these images to a traditionally trained Western medicine doctor, they're probably going to be like, what do I do with this? They're not even going to know what to do with this. We're probably looking in this, you know, you want to look for a holistic medical practitioner if you're going to try to use this technology, because I can just see this new primary care doctor I've established in Salt Lake. I feel like if I took this, they'd be like, what is this? Like, why are you showing this to me? And then, you know, they don't work with you on sort of the diet and lifestyle changes like you're talking about to make sort of a treatment plan based on what we're seeing on the images. And, you know, you brought up so many good points there about just function through the whole body. Like when I did mine, they did find a little bit— like, I've had back problems in the past. I think they mentioned that, some like maybe degeneration. And then I think my left glute showed less, um, thermic activity than the right. And they said, well, that could be like a little bit of spinal compression on the nerve or something. And then I believe in that same leg, down to some thrombosis or something. And I remember my mom had some kind of vein issues and stuff in her legs when I was growing up. So, you know, it's, it's funny how it does— you know, it's nothing that's giving me pain, it's nothing that is a problem right at this moment, but it's probably telling me like, hey, those are areas where we need to pay a little bit more attention going forward so that they don't become a degenerative situation in the future. So just kind of wanted to backtrack there because you mentioned several of those things. We're going to focus on, as you mentioned, the breast health and the oral health connection, which I'm glad you remembered that because that's actually how we got to both of those before. I think we were just talking about the tooth and you said, hey, you know, there's a big connection there. Between oral health and breast health. So glad you backtrack on that.

Yes. Yeah. And so I'll try and stay focused here, but you just opened up exactly that. Like the value of the thermal imaging is early detection of things that probably aren't a big problem yet, but left ignored will be. And I mean, worst case, you go in, you have it done, You've got some information and then you ignore it. And then, you know, 5 years later when you have that sciatic problem, you can look back and tell yourself, I told you so.

Right. Why didn't we do something about it?

Just generally, people are not good at prevention. They're good at dealing with acute symptoms that are troubling them or threatening in the moment. People are good at that. They're not good at prevention. But, this is where thermal imaging really comes in and shines. We use thermal imaging with professional athletes so that we can spot the potential of an injury before it happens and do preventative care. And, you know, why? Well, because those athletes are worth a lot of money. And, if you can prevent that injury, that's potentially saving millions of dollars. So, so there, there's a, there's a high stakes game. So they're willing to use this technology that again, that just the medical community hasn't caught up to. And I like your point. Like, yes, if you showed this to your primary care and person, would you be careful? Because you never know when any one primary care, any one doctor has done their own continuing education and has a knowledge base. And, and, but in general, in general, the allopathic community, this is roughly nonsense to them. And so yes, you probably are going to need to look at a provider who has self-selected to be in a niche and is paying attention to these things that allopathic medicine has basically pushed off to the side. And you want somebody who specializes in those things.

I'll make sure that I share in the show notes. Um, Guy provided me with a, when we were talking about this earlier, provided me with a couple of links to some studies to, one of them was a presentation at a medical conference, I believe that you sent the link to. And so I'll share that with people just in case if you do decide to go down this road and you do have a doctor that's more caressed or even if you don't, you've got some information on like, why are you doing this? And that way you can share that with people. Um, so, well, now that we've given the background, should we actually share with people the image of what this looks like. And I'm not gonna— I didn't share all of them, but I shared the one that's kind of the upper chest and the jaw because that's what we're really going to primarily talk about today. So if you're just listening to this on audio, you may want to pop over to YouTube at this point if you want to see the image. Otherwise, we'll do our best to describe it to you. But Guy, since you're the expert in this situation, I'll just let you chat about whatever you happen to be seeing here. And just for reference, It's my right cheek that's the one that's the problem child.

So, okay. So again, and just, just for context, all the only data I have is this image. I don't, I don't have a full report. This is just me looking.

Clinical history, you'd learn all about all. We're just doing this for kind of for fun for people to see, number one, what the image looks like. And number two, if you're presented with this information, kind of what is it that you're looking for here?

And that without a lot of detailed information, there are some things that you can just immediately pull out based just on kind of normative data across looking at, you know, many, many, many thermograms. There's just some things that jump out. So, so we're looking at kind of these. So again, we have this range of red, kind of bright red to deep blue, and then it's set against a temperature. And depending on the equipment being used, that equipment can be more or less sensitive to fractions of degrees of temperature change. And so, that matters actually when you're going to do this is the type of equipment that the person has and how sophisticated. It does not need to be the most sophisticated. This can be done today. In today's world, you can actually do a version of this with an attachment to your iPhone. And it's equivalent to the thermal imaging that was the most expensive equipment 10 years ago. Now for $200, you can do on your iPhone. I mean, that's just technology for you.

Yeah.

So we're looking here and we, you know, we see some red kind of on the sides of your neck, but again, with the carotid artery and jugular vein passing through there, we'd expect to see red there. So that doesn't really jump out. Again, up on the temple, there's a patch of red, but again, here we have vasculature that's right close to the surface, uh, that doesn't particularly catch my attention. But on the kind of, uh, side of your nose and cheekbone, that, that doesn't necessarily just intuitively make sense. Um, we'd expect some, but, but there's more there than we would typically expect. So just me at a glance say, well, you know, there's probably something going on sinus-wise. And then we see down kind of at the corner of your mouth and into your lower jaw a little red where we wouldn't necessarily expect to see it. And, and we see a high contrast of, uh, blue, so deep blue right next to an area of red. And there again, that brings up this question of like that, that isn't normative circulatory, you know, thermal data. There's something's happening there. And then we see this kind of a little bit that's running along, again, probably like the side of your trachea. You know, you don't get anatomy in a thermal image, you just get thermal information. So you have to guess a little bit, but I would be thinking thyroid, but that would just be a just general. We would of course look into more and find out if that indeed is the case. And then the other thing that stood out to me was just the deep blue kind of by your armpits. And that you had multiple versions that would show this better than these. But just as I glanced at these, those were the things that jumped out to me. Is sinus, jaw, thyroid, as, you know, there's something— looks like something is going on there from the too hot standpoint. And then here in the axilla or the armpits, the deep blue just brings a question.

But— Right. And as you said, you don't— you know, number one, you don't have the clinical history and you don't have the full set of images. So, obviously everything's in context, right? Just for people to remember. So you wouldn't see this and necessarily freak out, but you might also think something. And the other, the question I was thinking was like, well, I can't really tell which side of my face this is, cuz is it reversed? Cuz it's a photo. Cuz like I do have probably more inflammation on one side of my face than the other. And so that's kind of interesting to me, just like whether it's, um, you know, anything related to what we're seeing there with the contrast. Yep.

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So I think good to just show the image so people have a sense of it, but also, um, you know, again, me just kind of taking a quick peek at it resonated with you for what they had kind of given the information they had given you in the report. And, and, uh, yes.

Cause, uh, peop— the people that read it, are they, I mean, I guess they're obviously just specialized in this field, but they sent a report. I think they have 3 people. Look it over and kind of come to a consensus, or maybe they talk about it if they're seeing things that maybe don't make sense, but they send you kind of a full report afterwards. And so from that perspective, let's say you were working with somebody at the clinic who you did see, for example, say a breast hotspot where you're concerned, like, hey, this is something that may be a problem in the future. How then would you begin to work with that person on the diet and lifestyle changes just in a general sense? Because it'd be specialized to that person and what, whatever their specific situation is, but just some overall things that people could, you know, and these are probably good practice. Like if you're worried about this in the future, I know whatever you're going to say, it's going to be like, you should just be doing this all the time if you want to prevent cancer. Right. So love to hear what those are. Yeah.

So, so a couple of things here in response. Uh, so one, you know, any finding, uh, you know, should be referred out to the appropriate medical professional. So if it's oral, you know, to at least a dentist and maybe somebody higher up the food chain. If it's a concern around breast health, probably to the primary care provider for some evaluation. And, and yeah, just to start that process. And it's just, as a clinician, it's the responsible thing to do. If you see a finding that is outside of, in my case, like my specialty, then my responsibility is to refer that person. So that, that would happen is I would refer the person to the appropriate medical expert. And then also around this question of the functional medicine piece, I would also refer somebody to a functional medicine doctor for a full evaluation around what to do. So again, that's not my area of expertise. My thing is the bioelectric medicine, so I can say more about what I would do there.

Right.

But, but, you know, if we're looking at, you know, and you named it well, like a lot of the, the recommendations are gonna be the standard thing that you could go on pretty much any blog today and read about in a top 10 list or anything else. Right. We'd wanna, you know, kind of look at exercise and I'm a fan of more moderate exercise, not extreme exercise. The downside of extreme exercise is it takes more out of the system than it puts in. So it's a net deficit. And so I'm not a fan of that. So I think moderate exercise is a net gain in terms of building resilience and giving the body more resources. So it would be that looking at what form of exercise is a person doing. Of course, you know, mental emotional health and Maybe exercise can be a place where both of those come. And if possible, that's great. That's an ideal form. Otherwise, looking at what's happening there, then looking from a nutrition standpoint, all the standards, can we cut down any processed foods? I'm a fan of kind of a more of a keto, keto flex type diet. So it would be really looking at high protein, high fat, minimal carbs. And moving the body in that direction to kind of, you know, certainly sugar, you know, it's just gotta go. You know, that those would be the general recommendations that, and, you know, the hope would be that that would handle it. If we, if we catch something soon enough, those, those changes can be enough to make the correction.

Right.

And then if we need to kind of step it up, You know, again, if a person's further along in the process, if we're not catching it really at its early stages, we're catching it medium or towards the end of it turning into an acute healthcare issue, then we may need to step up and then, you know, moving into supplements and, you know, we can get into our kind of dietary anti-inflammatories or we can move up into some of the more supplement-based anti-inflammatories. Yeah, I don't, I don't like to mention, you know, brand names, you know, no favorites, but, but there are some really good nutrition-based anti-inflammatory supplement-based anti-inflammatories out there today that a person could use. And it's, it's, it's more potent than food, but it's not moving to the level of a drug yet., you know, in terms of being able to control inflammation. So, I mean, I know that's, it's very general, but that's, that's, that's, that's how the bulk of it is going to be. And then in the specific case, in any one person's case, again, you know, might order a, you know, a panel, like a blood panel and just look and see if there's some low-hanging fruit in terms of, you know, this person low in vitamin D. If you're here in Minnesota, you can pretty much guess that everybody is. So it's a standard. I had a client who was just right next to zero on B vitamins, and that was because of a medication that they had been on. And they'd been on that medication really, like, the current doctor was 3 doctors back. The current doctor really didn't have any rationale for why that patient was still on that medication other than it had just been grandfathered in doctor to doctor. And so that was one of the first things we said is like, can we get her off that medication? And doctor said, yeah, makes perfect sense. There's no— there's no current reason. Uh, it was a protein pump inhibitor, which is known to block bees, and got her off that, got her on a strong bee, and it's had a marvelous change. Change on her, just her energy level and just general kind of functional capacity, getting her, her B vitamins back. So there's things that are very specific to the individual versus just kind of a shotgun approach saying everybody should take D and everybody should take B. Not that helpful.

Yeah. And that's a great general reminder to people just like when you switch doctors or even if you're with your same doctor, reevaluating, you know, doctors are great at putting people on medication. They're not as good at taking them off. So always, you know, taking that time to reevaluate, like, why were you on this to start with? Is it still serving you? Does it make sense anymore in the context of the changes you have made in your lifestyle or any of those kind of things? So I think that's— I always like to have, like, there always are many takeaways when I talk to you, but that's a good one. If nothing else, just like talk to your doctor and make sure you still need the medication that you're actually on.

Yes. And I'll say the same thing for your functional medicine doctor. We encourage, I encourage my clients have a review, whatever that is, annually, quarterly, whatever makes sense. But my doctor isn't always the happiest when I send people for this, but they'll come in and they'll have a shopping bag full of supplements. And they'll sit down with the doctor and they go through every one of those supplements. And the question being, you know, should I be on this? Is this still appropriate for me? Is this a good form of this particular vitamin or conglomeration of vitamins that I'm taking? Either— are there redundancies across these? And, you know, almost the answer is yes. Again, when somebody has, you know, and it's just not— many of my clients, and not, not because I have suggested, it's just what I see coming in because of the prevalence of functional medicine right now, is on average 15 supplements. You know, the person is on 15 supplements, and I just think there's a genuine question of, are all 15 of those necessary?

That actually makes me feel better because as a person in this space, I'll often hear about a new supplement or something. And, you know, just to call this out again, because I think this is important for people to notice, because there's a lot of garbage supplements out there. Just always look for the GMP label, which means good manufacturing practices. That means at least the FDA goes in and looks at their factory. And, you know, it's not a perfect system, but at least there's some kind of regulation. And then even better is if the company gets third-party testing and they provide those results. That way, you know what you're getting is pure. It doesn't have any contaminants in it. So yeah, so just always look for that stuff before you try it. But then once I do that, that's all clear. Sometimes I'll just try something just to see, just to see if I notice a difference. But at the end of the day, it's like, okay, well, I can afford to do this and it's kind of entertaining because it's kind of my job. But I can, I can really say there's only, I don't know, maybe 2 or 3 supplements over the years that I can tell a significant difference even after I've done it for an extended amount of time. So that probably just tells you if you are exercising, you're eating pretty well, there's probably not a whole lot of extra stuff that you need. It's just all kind of for fun or entertainment or testing. And, and not to say that there are things that people could get benefit from, but I would just say in general, we've kind— we're kind of get sucked into this thing about taking supplements and it's not necessarily something that you need to do.

Absolutely. I mean, there's, there's, there's so much of it. I mean, it is just constant, you know, being marketed to peak performance brain, take thiamine. And, and the average individual has no idea if they need more of that or not.

And actually, you know, when you can tell the most sometimes is when you go off of it. Because I will say there was one that I took consistently for 3 months. It was a nootropic and the name is escaping me. I have to, um, go back and look, because I actually did, um, after I went off of it, I'm like, I need to get this again, because about a month later I was thinking like, oh, this, I do think I can tell a difference. So sometimes it takes going off of it.

Absolutely.

If it actually worked. Yep. Because when it's an incremental improvement, you're like, oh yeah, I feel fine, this is the same, but it's not always that.

And our nervous system, just evolutionarily, we are wired to detect negative more than positive.

That makes sense.

And so, so when we're taking something and it's helping, we're not really wired to notice that because there's no evolutionary advantage to noticing that. But there's an evolutionary advantage to noticing if something is bad for you, if it's harmful.

Right.

And so, so our nervous systems and our brain are just more wired for the negative than the positive. And so, yes, this is a really common thing that we see is, is people will start whatever it is, a supplement, a medication, one of our bioelectric devices, and they may not report that much on the positive side, but then they go off of it. That's most often where they'll be like, oh yeah, I got worse. And that's the reinforcing behavior is then they get back on it. And I would say it's not uncommon for people to have to make that cycle 3 times to link the positive with the behavior. It's just what we need as human beings is to, you know, we got to go up, down, up, down a few times to be able to say, yep, okay, I got it. Me putting this pill in my mouth or me putting this device on is connected with the benefit that I get. A month later. And, and yeah, so it's just the way we are. So yes.

And sometimes it is hard to tell when you're changing multiple things. That's why you should really only institute one new tool so you can evaluate it instead of adding 5,000 things at once. Um, speaking of that, so we were kind of talking about these to go back to the thermal imaging. We, you know, somebody finds something, we were talking about diet and lifestyle stuff, but then you also have a bunch of tools, um, devices and, uh, kind of brain training tools. Are there any of those that we you would use in that instance. Because I think you called out last time, and I thought this was really great, how we always think of our brain as just being sort of the cognition and the memory part. But really, when we have brain decline, it's also affecting all kinds of body processes that are happening. And so theoretically, one of these things that we find on the imaging could be related to our brain health. So I'd love to hear how you use any of those tools when this is the the situation with imaging?

Sure. So in your case, from our discussion, you know, I had suggested maybe you try one of the, the red-blue light mouthguards. And so the blue because of the suspected infection. And, you know, so we still don't know if, if that's there, but it looks like there's at least inflammation that may or may not be connected infection, right? But we can say that there's probably inflammation and that's the increased heat that we're seeing. So, so using light for its, its benefits of mostly being pro-vitality, so increasing mitochondrial activity, increase— decreasing inflammation, increasing circulation. So just, just pro health. The blue is one of the few forms of light that we use that is an anti, and so it's an antimicrobial. So it's going to help if you've got a bacterial or viral or fungal infection. So that's the one thing that is kind of an anti. Otherwise, we stick with red and near-infrared, which are pro health. So again, so if somebody does thermal imaging and it shows up, it looks like they've got a hot spot in the oral cavity The recommendation would probably be red-blue so that we're kind of covering both sides of that. Again, the nice thing with thermal imaging, because it's relatively affordable, especially if you're just going to go in and have, say, one done, just kind of an, you know, just a shot of the oral cavity. It's low cost. There's no downside. So it's not like an X-ray where you have to worry about getting radiation. You could go in, you could treat with the mouthguard, and then, and in 3 months go and check, and then, and then in 6 months go and check and, and see, like, is it working? And hopefully the answer is yes. Then you have that confirmation. You're not just kind of hoping that it's working. And then, you know, for, uh, again, if we're talking about kind of changes in breast health and maybe we're seeing something again, the caveat being referral to the appropriate medical professional, referral to functional medicine or Chinese medicine or something where it's gonna be handled. But, and, but then for me, like, what part of it would I handle? It might be something like microcurrent therapy or again, red infrared light therapy. So here we'd maybe move to one of our domes. And so you'd have a set of, of kind of panels, as I call it, panel dome that you would put over the chest and treat with the red infrared light. And that would again be about vitalizing the tissue so that it's, it's, it's more resilient against any pathological process that is in place. How can we give the body the resources it needs to defend itself against that.

Alright.

So, again, being more like on the pro-health side than the anti-disease side, we're just trying to vitalize the system. So, again, red near-infrared light. And I would do that for somebody, again, who's maybe showing on thermal imaging a change that is concerning. Great. But I equally would do that for somebody who— and I do— for somebody who has a confirmed, you know, breast cancer or is post, uh, treatment, and anywhere along in there, we would do these same things, which is let's use red infrared light to optimize the body's natural, uh, defenses against this. And then depending where we are in the process, we'll use whatever allopathic tools are needed as well. And so, uh, and then microcurrent therapy, So, microcurrent where light kind of has kind of the same rough 12, 17 benefits no matter where you put it, no matter what the source. If you've got a valid source of light therapy, that light is going to have the same effect. It's just what light does. You get these benefits. There it is, nice and simple. With microcurrent, it's especially if we're doing frequency-specific microcurrent, it's driven by the protocol. So, if we're doing, say, an anti-inflammatory protocol, then we're specifically driving down inflammation through a number of different pathways. But, we could be doing a detox protocol. We could be doing something that is more just kind of an immune support protocol. So, you know, kind of in the cancer world, there's more happening kind of in the immunotherapy side of treatment. Right. And so from a frequency-specific microcurrent, we can do a similar thing where what we're going to try and do is augment the function of the immune system to help the body take care of this naturally. So then there's a, uh, an emerging model of cancer. That's saying that, that what cancer is, is when a cell or a group of cells become disconnected from the local kind of information, you know, then, so again, if you have breast tissue, the breast tissue is connected with a local intelligence that is informing those cells how to be breast tissue cells and what they're supposed to do when they get disconnected from that. Information source, they revert back to a single-cell organ whose sense of its boundaries are self and everything else is not self. And that's kind of the definition of cancer. So this kind of emerging model is showing, and it's not just a theory. I mean, they're able to make a tumor come and go through this process of using bioelectric medicine to connect and disconnect a cell, individual cell, or a group of cells, so a tissue, from the local information network. When they disconnected, it becomes a tumor. When they reconnect it, it becomes— that comes back to being healthy, normal functioning tissue again. So in that same idea, we're using microcurrent to try and accomplish that same process of bringing those cells back into the bioelectric gradient of the normal flow of information between— in that tissue type. There's a company out there called Novocure that is using a form of this. They call it, um, what's their name, a tumor-treating field, where they're able to use— they would say not a microcurrent, I'll say a microcurrent— to, to affect what's happening at a cellular level to inhibit inhibit the process that is happening that produces a tumor, but not inhibit the process of normal cell function, physiology, metabolism, cell reproduction that happens in healthy tissue, but they can affect it as it's happening in tumor genesis. And, and so there's a lot of things that are emerging in the bioelectric space based on this kind of new idea of what cancer is. And so, so those are some of the approaches I would use. Light therapy, microcurrent therapy, working the healthy side of the system in a number of different ways to, to, um, try and kind of reverse this process that is tumor generation. Or again, if we're talking about the oral cavity, we've got an infection. How can we resolve that for a person and give them a management tool that doesn't involve, you know, another root canal or, or having a, you know, an implant put in or something of that nature? Like, this is a management strategy going forward.

Well, I think most people, before we go off the microcurrent, I think most people at this point are pretty familiar with red light therapy, photobiomodulation. There's tons of research on it. It's basically good for everything, as you pointed out. And I think most people can kind of associate that now with the big red panel, or it's a red dome device that you put on your, you know, something like that. I think everybody has a good idea about that. But microcurrent, when you say that, I mean, the only familiarity I have it with it personally is, you know, being a woman, and, you know, how women have all their potions and lotions and things that they do their face. There's like a device that's got two electrodes that you actually use to work your face. Is it a similar thing if you're treating other parts of the body, or what is that process look like if you're getting some kind of microcurrent therapy?

Sure. So there's, there's a whole range of, of microcurrent and different approaches, different paradigms. So the frequency-specific is, is a particular paradigm in the midst of the world of microcurrent therapy. And I generally use frequency-specific microcurrent, although I am I have other types of devices that I'll use as seems necessary, but, but my primary go-to is frequency-specific. And I'd say the main difference between the frequency-specific paradigm and maybe just more of a standard paradigm of microcurrent is they're using two frequencies at the same time with the understanding that it's the resonance of the two frequencies that creates the effect. So, their whole thing is the resonance effect. And so, when I'm writing protocols for Frequency Specific, we're doing frequency pairs. So, let's say there's a frequency for, say, collagen. And, what I want to do is kind of increase the secretion in collagen fibers. So then I have my frequencies for collagen and increased secretion, and I put those together. Or, uh, increase circulation in a muscle fiber. So then I have a frequency for muscle fiber and a frequency to increase circulation. I put those together. Or if I want to reduce inflammation in a nerve, so then I've got a frequency for a nerve and a frequency for reducing inflammation, and I pair those. So when I write a protocol, it's a little bit like writing software for a computer. You're putting in, this is what I want to happen now, and then this, and then this, and then this. And then a protocol might have 10 or, you know, 200 lines of code frequencies that are kind of giving information to the cell or tissue around, here's what I want to have happen. And so that's how we're changing the electrical gradient at the tissue level to move that gradient in the direction we want it to go and kind of move it away from the direction we don't want it to go.

So it's just a physical tool that goes on your skin that has— that produces the current.

Yep.

So people get— I mean, I, I'm a little worried they might get like— I like this stuff. They might get a little bit to like, but they're like, but yeah, but how, what does it do? Does it feel like a zap? Do you put it on my skin? How does it work? You know?

So the actual device is pretty small, about the size of a smartphone, but maybe twice as thick. So it's a relatively small portable device, has a couple of wires coming off of it that are going to go to 4 different leads. So that's our 2 channels. We have a—

Okay, so it's leads, not necessarily like probes or something.

Correct. Although it could be attached to probes. Most of the time for the home user, the probe isn't the ideal form of application. Although—

So is it maybe more like a TENS unit for people that are familiar with that? Like when you go to a physical therapist and they put these two leads on you and then it kind of contracts some current basically. Correct. That's my basic explanation.

Yeah.

Perfect.

Perfect. So TENS is a really good model. Most people have encountered TENS. TENS is about 1,000 times more current than microcurrent.

Oh, okay.

Interesting. Yep. So, it elicits that oppositional response from the body, which is actually what you leverage to get the change you want. So, make a muscle contract is a way to exercise a muscle. Microcurrent is really designed as a bioidentical current, so we shouldn't feel microcurrent. Now, the skin is naturally electrically resistant. So you can feel the prickles, that's impedance, and that's your skin telling you it can't move the current. And it's not bad, but it's not good. It's, it's a little bit like if you're trying to fill a cup with water and the water's overflowing, it's like that's a sign that the cup is full. And that's what impedance is. It's a sign that your skin can't move the current and, and you're feeling the prickles, the impedance. So really we don't want to feel the prickles. Is a bioidentical current, so it's running at the same amperage as our normal physiology. So it really kind of comes in under the radar and we don't notice the application of it. What we want to notice at some point is the effect of it, and that could be quick in the sense— so nerves respond really quickly to microcurrent because they're electrical organs, so they change with electricity quickly. So Somebody could have pain because of neural inflammation and we put on a nerve protocol and maybe within seconds or minutes they're like, oh my goodness, that's so much better. But if we're trying to change tissue, tissue changes slowly, tissue changes in hours and days. And so you put it on, a person doesn't necessarily feel anything. There's just nothing there to feel. But what you hope is over a period of days or weeks, you start to notice the effect of that tissue changing, which would be like a restoration of function. And so in, let's say for, well, let's say, so when I'm treating macular degeneration, we're putting currents into and around the eyes to affect a number of tissues and functions in the eye. But at the same time we're doing that, we are putting current kind of through the skin around the eyes. So one of the most common things that happens for my clients who are treating for macular degeneration is they get a couple of weeks, maybe a couple of months into treatment, and their friends start to comment like, what have you been doing? You look younger. Have you, you know, are you using a new product? Have you been going someplace for something? Because even though the microcurrent isn't specifically for a facial and it doesn't necessarily have the frequencies in it for changing collagen, which we have protocols for that. Nevertheless, just putting microcurrent through the tissues does have an optimizing effect and we get what's called collagen conversion. And these things called wrinkles, which are when one type of collagen, normal, healthy, young, elastic collagen starts to fibrose and you get a, a line of, of fibro collagen in a sea of elastic collagen. It pulls in and you get this thing called a wrinkle. Well, that if we can reverse that process of fibrosing, the wrinkle goes away because the, there is nothing there pulling in on the skin. So it goes back to being as normal, healthy, relaxed, elastic tissue. And that's sure enough what we see when we do microcurrent facials, is we're able to reverse the process of aging, you know, at the level of the collagen. So I use this example just to say, even when we're not trying to do it, the microcurrent itself has that effect. So my clients who are treating for macular degeneration have this side effect of they also start to look younger.

So not only are we learning this is applicable in disease prevention or treatment, but that microcurrent actually does do something. So good to know. Yes.

And so you asked me about application and I wandered down that path. So what I do when I work with, with folks is we really try and look at what's the specific reason they're doing it and then what's going to be most adaptive for that person's lifestyle. So it could be, like you said, the 10 sticky pads. Pads that you put on. That's, that's easy, simple, cheap, great. That's like, that's the baseline. But then we have a whole array of specialized electrodes. So let's say, for example, somebody has neuropathy in their feet. So we have Silver Thread Socks. So the whole sock is an electrode. You put the sock on and snap one end of the, the electrode to the sock And then you might put on like a knee, like a silver knee brace and put the other there. So you got a positive and a negative, one on the foot, one on the knee. And now the current is flowing back and forth through the lower leg, treating the neuropathy. And so in that case, we're using these specialized socks and then on and on. So again, for the eyes, I've got a special eye mask for treating hands. We have gloves and we have little handheld electrodes. So, I really try and match the mechanism of delivery to the person and how they're more likely to do this treatment on a daily basis because optimally, people are doing their microcurrent an hour or two a day depending on their condition. And, and, and then, again, we do a lot of at-home treatment. So, people have the device at home. They're treating on a daily basis. And then again, depending on the condition, the treatment might be months, years, lifetime. It, it just depends on what we're treating. Is it an acute issue? Uh, somebody who's had surgery and we want to try and minimize the chances of post-surgical, uh, adhesions. We want to optimize the scar so we don't get overgrowth of scar tissue. We want to maximize the regrowth of blood vessels so that the scar stays supple and kind of the kind of a normal color to it. So again, we were talking about breast cancer. I do a lot of work with folks who are post-breast cancer surgery and will use microcurrent post-surgery for all of the reasons I just said, so that they really have an optimum outcome from the surgery. And they have fewer complications a year or 5 years or 20 years later from that surgery.

So thankfully, microcurrent— good takeaway here is that it's painless, that you can do it at home. Any final thoughts before we wrap up for today on the thermal imaging? Just maybe like a quick summary or takeaways. Same thing with that— non-invasive, pain-free, possibility to detect early dysfunction. Any other things you want to just add as the wrap-up?

Yeah, so a couple of things, and I think you ran into this, uh, and it was part of our conversation, um, off, uh, the show, was so the, the, the, the technology today is, is much more affordable. It's high quality compared to what it was even a few years ago. So it's not all that difficult of a business to get into. So you get a variety of people who get into this. And because it's not mainstream, it's alternative, you're going to get more of your alternative types in it. So you're just going to potentially have that experience. If you look around in your area to see if there's thermal imaging, it's probably not going to be in a doctor's office.

Great.

See, chiropractors do this, you know, in terms of if you're looking for somebody with a medical degree, more likely to find a chiropractor doing it than an MD. Maybe an osteopath might be into it. Again, a little bit on that, but you're more likely to find somebody who, who isn't— doesn't have a medical degree that is offering this as a service. That's perfectly fine because again, what they're doing is operating a camera. And we don't need an advanced degree to operate a camera. Now, there are some basic things you want to know about how to do it, how to do it reasonably well. But, but we just want to keep in mind that this is a, this is a fairly simple process. You're going to go into a temperature-controlled room. You're going to disrobe. Usually it's done with the lights off or very, very low lighting. Somebody's going to take pictures depending on their system. They may not even be in the room with you. It may all be remote control. So you're in the room on your own. It's private. You're having the photos taken. Those photos are then sent to a medical professional to be read. This person has to be certified in doing thermography. And so it isn't your person taking the picture, the person that you're probably going to who's running the business. Who's doing the evaluation. They're going to be sending it out. Certainly that's a question you want to ask and make sure that that's what they're doing, is sending it out to a trained medical profession to give you the report. And so assuming that those basics are there, you're, you're going to be fine going someplace where you might be like, um, really? Is this where I'm going?

Just because you're on that subject, I'll just brief, very briefly describe the situation. So the person that I went to, not a medical professional, did this as a business. She actually had her office in a coworking space where it had like a separate, you know, contained office, but it's not. So it's kind of like almost like being in an office building, right? Went to there. She had it set up so that there was a curtain in between us and then she just like you mentioned, kind of remotely, but she was right there so she could talk to me and, you know, explain if like you have to do some kind of weird poses. So she could explain to me if I wasn't doing it properly, she would like hold up her phone over and she said, see, like this or something like that. Or she was showing me something else on her phone. But it was all very, you know, I think, you know, obviously if you're female and somebody's taking photos of you, you might be more comfortable with a female and vice versa for a male because it is still photos. You are still naked in the room. So, um, yeah, so that's kind of how it was, but I think, you know, definitely check that out before you go because your level of comfort with the situation might be different based on how that particular office has it set up. So anyway, that, I just thought I'd share what my personal experience was with that.

Thank you for saying that because it is like this and it just, it just is. So when I'm talking with clients about this, one, if I'm, if they're here in my area, I can make a direct recommendation and say, you know, go see You know, Sally, she's great. She's going to take good care of you. But if they're not, then it's a conversation about, well, how will they pick? And often it's like, there's one place that does it. Well, you have one choice then, but to put it in this kind of normative context so that a person isn't expecting like you're going for an MRI, right? Like your thermal imaging is going to be a very different experience than going for your MRI. But that's appropriate, you know, just in terms of what it is and the, you know, the cost of the equipment, the sophistication of the equipment, the danger related to the equipment. Here you're going to have a picture taken and there it is. Like, that's the level of concern you should have. Where are you going to get your passport picture taken? I don't know, whoever's open it because I need it right now. Whoever's there. Yeah. So that's kind of the level that you're working at. The reading of it. Will be done by a medical professional and that's what matters to you. Yeah. So that, that's really like what I wanted to add in is just the understanding of where this, this profession is in its evolution just means it's going to be located in these kind of non-traditional settings. And as a healthcare consumer, just be ready for that. And, and it doesn't, that doesn't need to be a problem necessarily. Do a little bit of due diligence. And then if that all kind of checks out, go have the imaging done. With any luck, what you get back is a happy story, right? It just— and then what you want to do is a baseline. So you go and you have it done, and if there's just no anything to be concerned about, maybe you go once a year. You just do that, not a big deal, cost you, you know, $50 to do a simple picture $200, maybe a bit more, maybe $600 depending on your area, but you're just going to go as needed to have it done as a preventative. If it shows something, then you might want to go more often to track its change. And again, that's where this really starts to become helpful is both, is this progressing? Ooh, I better take it more serious. Two, I've seen something, I'm concerned about it, I'm treating it. Now I'm going to have my, the picture taken so that I can see if what I'm doing is working. And that's an incredible, like, peace of mind to see that the efforts you're making around diet and lifestyle, and maybe you're going for acupuncture, something to treat this, and then to be able to see the objective data showing the positive change, it very much reinforces the behavior. And gives you a sense of when you, when you could say, yeah, I think I'm done. I don't need to continue treating my sciatica with, with acupuncture. Not only are my symptoms not there, but now I see that the flow of neural information and blood has returned to normal. Great.

Or to kick it down the, like, maybe spread them out more. Maybe instead of doing it every 6 months, once it's back to normal, normalize, then you're going back to once a year, once every 18 months, something like that. Yeah, I think it is a huge thing for peace of mind. So anyway, Guy, thank you so much for introducing me to this concept, introducing it to the audience. Um, can you please, before we totally wrap up, share with everybody your website and kind of what it is you do and how they can work with you, just so that everybody knows where to find you?

Absolutely.

So www.cerebralfit.com.

So cerebralfit.com, and that's best place to, to go to find me. But you'll find my email address there, you'll find a link to my schedule if you want to schedule a free consult, you'll find out all kinds of information about our devices and what they do. I like to keep a lot of research on the website so people can just go and kind of validate this, uh, on their own and find out that, yeah, there's real solid science for all of that we do. And then when they feel comfortable with that, and then if they want to do a consult, fantastic. So I really just try to put all the information out there. My main area of expertise is bioelectric medicine on the orthopedic side, so pain, body, and then specifically on the brain side, things like mental health, traumatic brain injury, dementia, Parkinson's. So kind of body and brain using bioelectric medicine.

Perfect. That's a perfect sum up. Thank you again so much for coming on the show today, and I look forward to keeping in touch.

Thanks for having me back.