Using Ketamine to Treat Mental Health Conditions: 52

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Heal, Nourish, Grow podcast. Today I am joined by Matt Zeman, and I'm really excited for this conversation today because it is a topic that we have not yet covered on Heal, Nourish, Grow, but it is something that has been a lot more in the news lately and bringing awareness, and that is to psychedelics as a means to really explore and improve mental health. So Matt, that being said, I'll kind of let you give a little bit of background on how you got into this work, and then we'll just go from there.

That sounds great, Cheryl. I appreciate you having me. I'm looking forward to this discussion as well. I kind of fell into this accidentally. People say I'm an accidental psychonaut, where a few years ago, a little bit over 3 years ago, some friends invited me to a guided psilocybin experience. I had never done such a thing and was a little bit hesitant, but trusted these friends and thought, ah, I like to travel. I'd like to learn. What's the worst that could happen? And went and did this and just had this incredibly mind-opening experience that connected me to my mom who died when I was younger and just made me see the world in a different way. So I left that experience and said, I need to learn more, and went back to school and got a master's in neuroscience and psychology and dove deep into the world of psychedelic medicine, just trying to digest as much as possible. And then that led to the book that I wrote that just came out recently called Psychedelics for Everyone. And my goal was to put as much of what I've learned into this in very layman's terms and get those out to get it out to the, to the world.

Yeah, and that's so interesting. I'm glad that you wrote such a thing because I think for most people on the outside looking in, they hear something about psilocybin or psychedelics or drugs and they're thinking, oh my gosh, we're going back to the '70s right now. But there actually is quite a bit of research on using these different methodologies, you know, and people use drugs every day. I mean, we take them from the, the big pharma companies, but yet there's these other things that people have been been using for many, many years to sort of have these different experiences. So when your friends first invited you on this trip, could you share a little bit more about what was going through your mind at that point? What kind of was the turning— I mean, you said you like to travel and you like to learn things, but I imagine there was a little bit more that went into that. I could be wrong. And where did you do this? Did you do this in the States, or is this one of those trips where you went to like Peru or Machu Picchu? Or what? Tell us a little more color around that, please.

Yeah, sure. I mean, so, so I do make fun saying about the travel and the learn, but the reality is that those are the kinds of things that they used to convince me. They said, you know, you read all these books and you said you're open-minded, but why are you so opposed to doing this? And then on the travel experience, they said it's going to be like a journey in your head and why not see what that feels like versus flying all over the world? So they got me in the areas that they knew I was interested in at that time. Have since expanded. It was a, it was a US-based experience. So it was a, there are practitioners across the country and this was one of them. And I felt very safe with the person they chose and kind of their qualifications. And I felt like it was a good, if I was ever to do such a thing, this was an opportunity to do it. And to your point, I mean, yeah, there, I didn't know it at the time, but I mean, there are 309 academic institutions studying psychedelics or psychedelic centers right now. And the results that— I mean, this is Johns Hopkins and Yale and Columbia, Berkeley, UCSF, Imperial College, it just goes on. And the results that they're showing for depression, anxiety, eating disorders, substance use, the list goes on in terms of who they're helping with these medicines. And that's just completely a different mindset than what I grew up with, with this whole just say no and it's going to fry your brain and you're going to be doomed. Yeah, I didn't realize how much my mindset was falsely— my understanding of the war on drugs was just based on a bunch of things that I've been taught that were not true.

Yeah, and I would say, you know, we seem to be in a similar age group, and I kind of grew up in that same paradigm, and my background is in psychology. So, you know, nobody's afraid of the pharmaceutical drugs, which in many cases maybe we should be more afraid of those. So as you've been you know, when you went back to school for this, what you learned there, were you learning to use these methods or these types of medicines yourself in working with people, or was it more just for your personal knowledge to explore this topic a little more deeply?

Yeah, I wanted to have a, a well-rounded education when it came to psychology and neuroscience so that I could at least understand the literature. I mean, I hadn't taken a science class in 30 years. So I was way behind and I was very intimidated by these studies and how do I read a study? What does this mean? So school really did help me. This master's program really helped me with that. And things like I wanted to understand, you brought up the pharmaceuticals. I didn't understand antidepressants as an example. So I understood in theory, like, okay, you take an antidepressant, and it'll help you become less depressed. Um, but I didn't understand that on upwards of 40%, they just don't work. Didn't know that. I didn't know that somewhere between 40 and 72% are going to have pretty huge side effects, gastrointestinal issues, um, lack of, uh, sexual dysfunction, cognitive issues, potentially increased suicidal ideation. I mean, that's a big price tag.. And for a long time in this country, there haven't been— there's not another alternative. So in school, I started learning about ketamine and the power of that generic medicine. It's been around since 1970, started being studied for mental health in '74. In the past 15 years has seen kind of a resurgence of ketamine, which is the only legal psychedelic in America. And again, I just didn't know any of this. Going into this process. And it, and it kind of made me mad. It made me mad that there is an alternative that people can prescribe in all 50 states. And that's not, and that you don't take every day and has very little side effects. So it's like, oh, that all sounds good to me. But people don't know about it. And I just, it's frustrating the way our medical system works and the way that pharma drives these decisions. And then effectively it becomes an addiction for people. Where they get prescribed an antidepressant and they're, then they're on it for 10, 20, 30 years. And to get off of it is painful, very, very hard to do.

Yes. And I think that that is part of the problem. You mentioned that it's a generic drug. And once a drug is generic, there's no longer mounds of money to be made by big pharma. And so people kind of automatically dismiss it or the drug reps. Actually, I'm watching this show right now that's all about the OxyContin with Michael Keaton. I forget the name. It's like Dopesick, I think is the name of it on Netflix. Netflix, yes. And, uh, just how much the drug representatives are involved in promoting this stuff to doctors when the older version might be more safe, more effective, and less expensive. So there's a lot of, uh, marketing going on when it comes to some of these drugs. But to go back to ketamine, that was a sort of a little side note, uh, there for people if they want some more insight into how the drug industry works a little bit. Uh, they could watch that show. But anyway, to go back to ketamine, so it's a generic, it's been, I think you said, in use since 1970. Do you remember what it was originally, uh, used for and then how it became to be more studied for mental health?

Absolutely. So, I mean, it was a dissociative anesthetic. So it was originally used for surgery purposes, uh, both in veterinary and in, uh, human use. Um, and what was happening is people were coming out of these anesthesia situations and saying, oh my gosh, I just separated from my body and I was floating around the room and I had this insight over whatever. And at first it was like, well, wow, this is a, this is a, a bug in the, in the medicine. But then as people started thinking about it, it's like, well, wait a minute, maybe we can use that for the purpose of healing these mental, mental health challenges. So trauma, anxiety, depression, OCD, eating disorders, substance use, and so on. And, and then people start experimenting with it. And now again, the last 15 years, let's go just last 7 years or so in the country, we went from, I don't know, 50 ketamine clinics to there's over 400 now that work with mental health in ketamine. Every state, I think you're up in Montana and there's, I mean, from New York to California, every state has ketamine clinics, which means that your listeners really need to do a little bit of thinking if they're going to go this route, in terms of who they choose and why they make those decisions.

Yeah, and so maybe that's a good segue into discussing, you know, what should people be looking for? And also, you mentioned all the good effects of ketamine. Are there any side effects or caveats to working with this drug that you would caution people with? So two things there, maybe about if there's anything negative known or things that people might experience on the sort of not-as-great side, and then— Sure. How do they find the right person to work with or the right clinic? Yeah.

So we'll take it that, that exact sequence. So when it comes to side effects, I mean, we're used to talking about the side effects of antidepressants, which are huge. We, again, I'm sure you see in, in your practice with people who are switching to keto because they're having stomach issues and they're having sleep issues. And they're right. The side effects on ketamine are, are very, very little. Most of the side effects will occur during the actual ketamine session or within an hour or two after. There are very little side effects that last beyond that. So that's pretty incredible when compared with antidepressants. For recreational ketamine users, there have been cases of abuse. And in those cases, there have been cases of some urinary issues and some more significant side effects. But in clinical use or with a prescriber, there's been no cases of that, or none that I'm aware of. So I guess caution number one is this is not a, uh, this is not a psychedelic that'll be recommended in the recreational category. And, um, and then if you're with a, with a medical provider prescriber working with you, um, it's a pretty safe medicine to use.

And you did mention it's not really an ongoing thing, right? It's just maybe once every month or a couple weeks or something like that.

Yeah, that's very specific to the patient. So that's actually a benefit. But I'll give it—

Absolutely.

I'll say I was talking with a person yesterday who a year— Actually, I'll give you his whole story. 23 was his first suicide attempt, 20 different medications over 20 years. And about a year ago, he found his way to ketamine. When he went in for his ketamine treatment number 1, on a scale of 1 to 60 for depression, he was a 53. So that's not the score we're going for. That's pretty severely depressed. He did his 6 ketamine treatments in a row, which is what most people do, about 6 within 6 weeks. And now he does one every 4 weeks, and he's a 10 on the depression scale. That's amazing. So after all these years, he's, he's got his life back, and it's about once every 4 weeks. And then the other thing about ketamine versus the other psychedelics is it's a short experience. I mean, we're talking about a 1-hour experience once you're on the medicine. So it's something that you can work into your life very relatively easily and find a couple hours to prepare, take your journey, and integrate before moving on with your day. People can find once every 4 weeks, once every 2 weeks, without again the side effects. One other major thing I'm going to draw, since we're talking about antidepressants, it's also the only psychedelic because it works on the glutamate side instead of the serotonin You can actually be on antidepressants when you start your ketamine, so you don't have to wean yourself off before trying to see if ketamine might work for you. And that's, um, that's really lovely for people who are already on antidepressants. It's like, oh, I, I think I might wanna do this, but I don't wanna go through the withdrawal and then find out it doesn't work. So I'd say, um, you can try it first.

Yeah. And that's, that's really powerful because as you mentioned, and this is true in, in all the literature, is, is that most anti-depressants aren't even effective for people or they're, they've been been on them for so long and they're still not really having symptom mitigation, but they're just afraid of the side effects of going off, or they just somehow they don't know what else to do. I mean, I, I think I've shared this on the show before, that I was on and off antidepressants for most of my adult life, and for me they're honestly never very effective. Actually, what was the best— and the research does support this— is exercise. It's actually much more effective than antidepressants. So if you need to dose the happiness get outside in the sunshine and, and move your body. But it is nice for people who are unwilling or not as able to do that. Say, you know, say they have physical reasons why they can't do as much exercise. This certainly seems like it could be a really safe and well-tolerated option to explore. So how would they go about, you said they're all across the country now. Say this is sounding interesting to somebody and it's not just depression. You mentioned some other things, eating disorders, anxiety, many other things. So there's, you know, obviously Obviously, people can look into the research on what this may help, but how would they go about starting to work with somebody or finding a reputable place where they are going to feel safe and know that they're being well taken care of? What are some things to look for?

I really appreciate you asking that question. I mean, the first thing I would— there are a couple different flavors of ketamine treatment. One flavor is the very medical model. Doctors believe this is just a biochemical reaction. So in those treatment centers, you go in, you get under like the equivalent of a dentist chair, they put an IV in your arm with like a nurse anesthesiologist, and they walk away. And at the end of your hour, they unhook you and you recover, and they send you on your way, and that's it. And they just expect the medicine to do its, do its work. So that's kind of one philosophy. The other philosophy is more of a combination of ketamine with either psychotherapy or some type of therapy component. From what I've read, the research says that's the best way to do this. And those providers typically, they're going to meet with you in advance. They're going to talk about what is your intention, prepare you for this session, what are you trying to get out of it, and, and have— again, they don't need to give advice, they just need to make sure that they're pulling that information from you. You're either going to go into a clinic, and again, it can be an IV, it can be an intramuscular shot, it can be a nasal spray. Or you're going to work with one of the virtual at-home companies like mine. And I have a company called Happy, but there's a company called New Life, there's another one called Mind Bloom, there's a bunch of them that will send you your medicine at home. And it's a— it's an oral tablet you put under your tongue and you let it dissolve. And in about, depending on the doctor, 10-15 minutes, you spit out your medicine, put on your eye mask, and you have this 1-hour journey. And then afterwards you meet again with your guide or your therapist and they talk about What came up for you? And you start the integration process. So preparation, the session itself, and integration. The research I've read says that's the best protocol. And if I was recommending this to, to my, to a family member, I would say, look for someone who can do that for you. And then it becomes, do you want to do this at home or do you have the ability to do it at home? Do you have someone who can be there with you? I lost you there.

Yes. I'm glad you're back. So I think where it cut off was that you were saying, Uh, if you have somebody to stay with you and if you have a quiet space at home, this might be an option for you to do it in that way.

Yeah, it's much less expensive if you can figure out a way to do it in the virtual, if that, if that works for you. And you're talking about typically 6 sessions are in the $1,200 range for your first 6. And then after that, maybe it's $800 for 6 more sessions. When you go into a clinic, you're looking about $450 to $1,000 per session. So it's a, it's a big difference. But they're, they, I guess what I'd also say depends on who you are. If you have really high depression and you're suicidal, ketamine might be a great fit, but not virtual. Go into a clinic and work with somebody. But for most cases of depression and anxiety, virtual works. We all have an innate ability to heal. It's, the ketamine can bring that out.

Yeah, and it's nice now that, I mean, I think people are more, more used to the virtual paradigm given the last several years that providers are able to do that. But I think, I think what your caveat was is, is spot on. Any very serious scenario, work with somebody in person or just so that if there's any unintended effects that you, you have somebody that's local and that you can work with closely to, you know, get the help that you need. That being said, you, you mentioned the cost and I'm assuming just knowing our healthcare system at this point that they are not covering this. Would I be correct in that statement? You would be correct.

Super frustrating. I mean, they'd rather people support Big Pharma than, uh, and do a pill every day than support this.

So is there any movement towards— and I assume people that are the clinics and, you know, companies like yours, uh, are trying to get that changed, I would imagine. And given that there is research to support it, is there any progress in that direction? I mean, generally stuff with insurance companies takes a really long time, but I'd just love to hear what you're working on and how the industry is approaching that.

Yeah, it, it definitely takes a long time. So what we're seeing is we're seeing companies that are self-insured making the decision to add this as a benefit. So if you work for a large company, talk to your HR group that this is something that they can make that decision. They don't need to wait for one of the big insurers to, to make a decision. One of the challenges with generic medications is there's not a lot of money available for research because there's no ability to charge a lot of money for the drug. So because of that, um, studies are slow to come out and, uh, it's just gonna take a while before the insurance companies catch up with this. But the co— overall cost of treatment, we believe, is radically less than what it takes to, uh, and the increase of quality of life is, is so much higher that we're hoping that over time the insurance companies will see this.

Yeah, it's, uh, it's interesting because some of the other kinds of modalities, I think they're finally starting to be a little bit covered by insurance. I mean, back in the day, I think chiropractic was not covered, massage was not covered, and they're still not covered amazingly well, but there's at least some coverage there. And other things like yoga and acupuncture and, you know, all of these things that have— that do have good research behind them that work. But there's not a lot of money to be made. And so as, as it goes, as it goes. Yes.

I wanna go back to something else you said that I thought was really important that I, I think we kind of glossed over. So you talked about kind of the habits, and I know you talk about this a lot on your podcast. You talk about like, you talk about your habits, you talk about your inspiration, you talk about the choices you make and whether that's going on walking or drinking or exercise or drinking water or getting better sleep. One of the things I think that's unique about psychedelic medicine, and whether that's ketamine that's legal or some of these that are hopefully going to be legal again soon, is it literally changes the way your brain thinks. So we get— especially as we get older, we get caught in these ruts. We think the same way. Well, behind the scenes, our neurons are firing that same way. What a psychedelic medicine will do is it'll allow neurons to fire in ways that they don't normally fire. And then it gives your mind a glimpse of, oh, I didn't know I could think about whatever it is this way. And once you have that, that becomes a catalyst for, and I think I should, dot, dot, dot, exercise more, sleep more, have a different relationship, make different choices, whatever that is for you. And that works on ketamine, that works on psilocybin. It works in this whole range of psychedelic medicine, which which helps. So I, so I guess I'm trying to say it's, it's not the medicine itself that's the cure. It's a catalyst for change because it helps people think differently.

Yeah, Matt, I'm so glad that you brought that up because actually the, um, guest that I had interviewed just before you today was talking about a similar thing about brain patterning and, um, you know, neuropsychology kind of stuff. And that, you know, there's so many different ways to approach it, like meditation, like he was talking about biofeedback and neurofeedback, and there's all these tools, but quite often, if it takes too much effort, people don't want to do it. And so one of the things that I think is interesting about some of these modalities, such as psychedelics, is that it's, it's easier for people in some way because they just take a pill and that's kind of the way our society has moved to nowadays. And so, but it does, it's a catalyst for change and it's, and it is a way to get your brain working in a different way or helping you see things in a different way. So I think that's a really wonderful way to approach it and a wonderful way to look at it. And that's certainly going to be appealing to a lot of people that don't want to, you know, exercise every day or get outside or do the hard work of meditation when they can just take a pill. I mean, I hate to say that, but it does make it easier.

Yeah. Yes, I completely agree. Let's look at though— let's look at just a slightly different variation. I know a lot of people who've tried to meditate and will say meditation is not for me, or I couldn't get to work, or I don't get it. Totally understand that because when you're starting meditation, it's super frustrating and it's like, oh, I lost train of thought, or I wasn't focused on my breath. When you take a psychedelic, you're going to go somewhere. There's no like, oh, I don't get it at all. You're going to have some type of experience. And and in many cases it shows you what's possible in these other things. So because you— so the example would be, because I did a psychedelic, I could understand what I'm going for with meditation, and therefore meditation becomes easier and something that I want to do, not that I have to do. Um, and same with all, all the things around it. So hopefully the psychedelic, it frees up your, your mind to think in a way that is again, different and help create the catalyst towards happy habits that lead to a fuller, happier life.

Yeah. And that's actually, well, that's the name of your company, Happy. And I will have you talk about that a little bit.

It is. That's true too. Yes, yes, yes. That wasn't, in that particular case, it was not a cross-promotion. But yes, Happy is the company. Happy with two Ys.

But you picked that for some reason. But before we go into that, I just wanted to touch on something that you said. You said, when you take a psychedelic, you're going to have an experience. For some people, is that experience— and let's address ketamine first by itself, and then we can talk about maybe some other ones— but are those experiences ever negative? Because I have heard, I think it was a psilocybin, it was a guy who's also been in this kind of space for a while, and some of the things that he described, I think most people would call pretty negative. So can you talk about how ketamine may or may not be different from other psychedelics in that sort of regard?

Yeah, I mean, in the— oh man, there's a lot to unpack there. So in the— those of us who work in this industry, we talk about— we're in this space, we talk about you can have a challenging experience, but that doesn't make it a bad experience. It just makes it challenging for you. You were meant to have emotion and experience, and you might not have chosen it, but hopefully it helped you. Johns Hopkins has done research and said when people do go through even experiences that they say are extremely challenging, they're still well over 75% are saying, this is one of the top 5 things that's ever happened to me in my entire life. Well over half are saying it's the number 1, more important than getting married, than having kids. This is the biggest thing that's ever happened to many people who take a psychedelic. So that's something to think about. Can there be negative experiences? Absolutely. So how do you reduce the risk of a negative experience? We talk about set, setting, and source. So source is easy, right? If you're working with something like a legal ketamine, well, you know what your source is. It's going to be a pharmaceutical-grade product. For those who are not working with legal medicines, it's harder because we can't have an upfront discussion about drugs in this country. People are forced to go underground and buy them. And The results are not, are not always ideal. So ideally, if you're going to do something that is on the illegal side, really, really, really check your source. I highly recommend getting test kits. There's a company called DanceSafe.org which sells them. If you have teenagers in the house, why not keep some test kits in the house? It's just with the amount of products that's laced with fentanyl these days, it's just, it's just such a, awful, awful, awful way to lose a child, and unnecessarily. So test kits save lives. So that's source. The setting is— sorry, the set is your mindset. So are you prepared for what you're about to do? Do you know what the experience is going to be like? Do you know how long it's going to be? Are you comfortable? Have you chosen to do this? Do you have an intention? That's all the mindset. And then the setting is where are you and who's with you and do you feel safe and do you feel loved and do you feel you're not gonna be interrupted and is all that. So with those three things taken care of— source, set, and setting— the probability of a bad experience is very, very, very low, like under 1%. You can have a challenging experience, but really, really negative It's pretty low with those things covered. But yeah, challenging experiences happen because that's— we all have our traumas. We all have our things that the medicine brings up. I mean, the story I write about in my book with regards to this is when I was a young teenager, I had some inappropriate sexual contact with a family member 10 years older. And I kind of pushed that down, pushed it aside, didn't want to talk about it, didn't talk about it. Cut her out of my life and just moved on. But it wasn't gone. And in a psychedelic experience, she was there. I was right back in that situation. Didn't want to be there. But I was able to look at her as someone who was looking for love, was rejected, was dealing with her own substance use challenges, was very sad. So I don't have to forgive or condone what happened. But I could look at her and have real empathy for that human. And with that empathy, I can move on in a way that I didn't think I could. Um, so now here I am talking about it as if it's not a big deal, but 5 years ago we wouldn't have had this conversation. So that's a challenging experience, something I would not have ordered, but the other side of it's pretty, pretty incredible.

Yeah, it sounds like a lot of healing came out of that. And the way that I know that it is healed is that you can talk about it without a lot of emotion. It's just kind of like a statement about you're not putting any judgment on it. You're not having any feelings around it anymore. It's like, here's what it was. And that is often, I mean, it's, it's, I don't hate to compare it to meditation again, but it does sound, you know, when you get good at meditation or not, like there's no good, I'm using air quotes if you're listening to this, but when you're more accustomed to it and you kind of know what to expect from meditation, those are the— the source of realizations that you become that you're not your thoughts and that you're judging a situation or you're putting emotion around it is what's causing your distress. It's not the situation itself necessarily. It's your feelings and your emotions around one. So it's really wonderful that you were able to get that healing from that. And I would assume that, you know, having positive experiences like that yourself have to be part of the reason that you then decided to do this more as a business or try to bring this more widely to people. People. Can you now just maybe talk a little bit about Happy and how that got started and sort of the why behind it, your why for starting the company?

Yeah, absolutely. So, and there's, there's two pieces to what I'm doing. One is I just wanna spread information. We're happy is only in Florida right now, so we're, we're gonna be growing, but we're only in Florida. So these types of conversations you and I are having, talking to kind of a national audience, I just wanna spread information and say there's, there is medically reviewed information out there. My book, every chapter that has both studies, references, and medically reviewed is just one example. But there's lots and lots of data out there for those who want to find it. And I just want to spread the word that there are options, that especially when it comes to antidepressants, what makes me nutty about antidepressants is people feel like, oh, I failed antidepressants. I did something wrong because they didn't work for me. And no, no, you did not. The medicine failed you. It doesn't work for a lot of people. And Yeah, it's just, it's just a shame that people feel like they've done something wrong on top of an underlying anxiety or depression condition. So, or basis. So that's part one is just to spread information. And then part two, yeah, I wanted, I want to help and I'm really good at scaling businesses and my business partners built two telehealth companies. So we, we wanted to try to help as many people as possible to bring the cost down to as low as possible and bring the experience up. And that's what, that's what Happy is all about. And then also approaching it with this philosophy, we can transform lives. So this isn't just a pill you're gonna take and boom, you're better. It's gonna be a catalyst towards happy habits and towards a different life. And we're gonna help you with digital therapeutics for a year. Even if you just do your first 6 sessions, you don't wanna do anything else with us, we're still gonna support you on your journey. And that's just— it's super important to us.

Yeah, well, that's why I was excited to have you on the show today, because I think that what I— from what I read about the business and your values, I just thought it aligns really well with what I want to do, which is share information and try to get people happier and healthier. And there's such a number of ways to do that. There's no right or wrong. But if they've never even heard about it before, they don't have all the options on the table. So thank you for the work that you're doing and thank you for coming to share all your knowledge and experience on the show today.

Oh, thank you for having me. I don't think you're trying to do it. I think you are doing it. I mean, everything I've seen in your podcast, you are doing it every day with this and spreading the word and helping people move towards a healthier lifestyle and showing that's not that— in the specific areas that you're working in the keto space, that there's lots of ways to do this and continue to have a very busy life and make these choices.

Absolutely. Oh, and Matt, you mentioned something that we almost forgot, but you wanted to make a special offer.

I did. No, no, just ignore— yeah, we didn't talk about this at all, but a number of people are, seem to be experiencing or experimenting with microdosing or curious about this. And this is where they're taking a sub-perceptual amount of either mushrooms or LSD typically. And so I've been getting a lot of questions about this, so many questions I went ahead and put together a guide to microdosing and I'm just going to make it free for any of your listeners. And if they go to Matt Zeman.com/healnourishgrow. They can just download a free guide to microdosing, which will kind of talk about what's the research, what are the protocols in terms of how you do it, and yeah, and just kind of what you need to know if you're going to— I'm not saying anybody should do anything illegal, but if you are going to find your way to that medicine, here are some best practices around how to microdose.

Yeah, appreciate that, and thanks again for making that offer. So again, Have a wonderful day, and thanks again for joining us on the show.

Cheryl, thanks so much. I appreciate you having me.