#109: How You Find Your Superpower, Hone Your Craft, and Do The WORK with Tiffani Bova!

You have to become a student of your profession, whatever that is. Sitting in comfort means you're not sort of challenging yourself to do other things. Through that process, you're going to find your non strengths. Now, do you want to double down and try to make yourself really good at those non strengths or do you want to say, those are my non strengths? I'm going to surround my people who that is their strength and I'm going to go focus on what is my strength. That's a perfect setup, especially as an entrepreneur. Like fall in love with failure. Get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Find out what your non strengths are. Surround yourself with people who could help fill in those gaps, and then find a way to double down on what you're really good at.

Come on this journey with me each week. When you join me, we are going to chase down our goals, overcome adversity, and set you up for a better tomorrow. Fasten your seatbelts. I'm ready for my close up. Hi, and welcome back. I'm so excited for you to meet my friend Tiffany Bova coming live to us from la. She's the chief growth evangelist at Salesforce and author of the Wall Street Journal bestselling book, Growth iq Get Smarter about the choices that will make or break your business. The book covers 10 paths to growth that will help you on your journey to success and we are diving into them today. Tiffany's also delivered over 500 keynote presentations on sales transformation and business model innovation to over 400, 100,000 people on six continents. I mean, what you have accomplished, Tiffany, in your career is mind blowing. And I'm so excited to get into it. Thank you for being here today.

Oh, thank you for having me, Heather. It is my pleasure.

Oh, my gosh. All right. So, so much to get into it. I really wanted to start with how do you even get a title of Salesforce evangelist? Like, did you make this position up? How do you make that happen?

What's so funny is it doesn't matter. I've been here now five years and lots of things to talk about, and everyone asked me about my tit. It's great. So there. It's sort of a funny story behind it. But, you know, throughout my career, I knew what I really loved doing, and so I wanted to manifest and create sort of like the perfect role for me. And Salesforce was kind enough to allow me to do that. And it was really about how do I sort of share the stories and evangelize kind of the art of the possible. And so why not put evangelist in the title, you know, kind of paying homage to one of the first in tech, Guy Kawasaki, who was the chief evangelist at Apple Apple back in the Steve Jobs days. And so it really, I think, also helps share that I don't have, you know, I'm not in sales. I don't have a quota. Like I don't have responsibility from a corporate standpoint. So my conversations are going to be much different. And so I was very intentional in what I wanted that title to say. But yes, it was kind of manifested and created and Salesforce gave me the opportunity and I jumped.

So you believe in manifestation?

I absolutely do. I absolutely do. I think it might have been nine or 10 years ago. I created a vision board of sort of what I wanted to accomplish and what I was passionate about. And whether it be writing my book, which was on the vision board, or making the Thinkers 50 list, which was on my vision board, or landing a role where I could really create this opportunity for me to do what I love doing and a couple of other things. And lucky me, maybe I shot too low, but all but a few came true. And so I think it's just about setting the intention of what you want to accomplish. Even if it's scary, then you just know what you need to do and who you need to surround yourself to help lift you up to get to where you're trying to go.

But I also don't want to minimize the work that you put in to become the person that was able to get this opportunity right. Like your background and track record in sales is beyond impressive.

Well, I think there's a few things, you know, I think I was. I accidentally stumbled into selling and realized I was good at it and then I could make some money at it. Well, this is awesome. Like, great. I can make money doing what I enjoy doing. I'm a people person. You know, I was an athlete my whole life. And so I love the competitiveness of selling. Like, you know, winning that deal feels just as exciting today as it did 30 years ago. And then I realized, you know, that when I left the sort of sales leadership profession, I was burnt. I was burnt out. I needed a break. I had just been grinding for 15 years and I had to get off that merry go round. And I. And I decided that I wanted to go and become an analyst and consultant on sales transformation. So to use what I had learned and I didn't know how to do that actually, like, it's a very different muscle. So the first couple of years I felt like I wasn't Very good at it. But what happened was people started to share with me what they thought my superpower was. And it could be storytelling, it could be taking lots of data from multiple sources and being able to package that into a presentation, or looking for signals and trends in the market. I didn't realize they were my superpowers until people started to tell me, you're really good at this. And once I realized that, then I said, okay, how do I do more of that? And so I think it was a process of elimination. Like, what do I want to do? What am I really good at? And what do my clients actually value from me? And then how do I create a situation where I do more of that, where I do more of what people think I'm good at and that I enjoy and I love doing? And that's kind of how that happened. That was kind of. The work is not just what you want to do, but also what people value in what you bring to the table. Why they hired you, or why they invited you to a meeting. Ask the question, hey, you invited me to this meeting. Why'd you invite me to this meeting? And they may say, you know, you always bring a unique perspective. Oh, okay, thank you.

Right.

Then you go, okay, People think I bring a unique perspective. And then ask someone, why'd you invite me to this? Or, you know, give me some feedback in this meeting. And they might say, you know, you're really good at this, this, and this. Okay, I'm really good at this, this, and this. Or you could improve here. You have to ask so that you can kind of find where you want to double down. And that's why that vision board was really a creation of all the things people thought I did fairly well.

So I like that you called it the work. Right? Because as I'm three years into being an entrepreneur, and I identify with what you just said, still, in the work of, everything is evolving and changing, and it's scary. And so different than being back in corporate America, where it felt so much more linear. You knew what that next move, the path was already mapped out for you versus I feel like now I'm living in the work. How did you keep yourself further on and say, you know what? This is the work, and I get it, and I'm sticking with it versus getting frustrated and saying, gosh, I keep. I'm met with failure, I'm met with challenges. Maybe I'm not supposed to be doing this.

Well, there's so much in that I'd say more than anything, for those of you listening that have children or get them into sports, doesn't matter if they're not very good at it. There's so many lessons I learned in sports. Winning with humility, losing with your head held high, being coachable, being a teammate, sharing, getting feedback, giving feedback. There's so many lessons in sports. So I think when you talk about the work, it's like you have to become a student of your profession, whatever that is. It's like if you want to get in shape, you have to go to the gym. You're going to be sore for the first 30 days, but don't stop going because if you stop going because you're sore and you go back again, you're just going to get sore again. But if you just keep working on it, eventually you won't be sore anymore. So now you either need to increase the weights or mix up the workout so you get sore again. Right. It's about getting a little uncomfortable every single day because sitting in comfort means you're not sort of challenging yourself to do other things. But I will also say through that process, you are going to find your non strengths, which is another word for weakness. You are going to find your non strengths. Now, do you want to double down and try to make yourself really good at those non strengths or do you want to say those are my non strengths? I am going to surround my people who that is their strength and I am going to go focus on what is my strength. Right. I mean, that's a perfect setup, especially as an entrepreneur. Like I hear all the time, I'm trying to grow my business and then, you know, I'm, I'm just about to, you know, double my revenue. Are you the right leader to get you to the next place? Is your strength being able to do that or is it time for you to bring in another CEO or to bring in, you know, a partner or to bring in a chief financial officer or whatever it might be right to fill in those non strengths. And so I think that throughout the journey, that's what you have to learn, is fall in love with failure, get comfortable with being uncomfortable, find out what your non strengths are, surround yourself with people who could help fill in those gaps, and then find a way to double down on what you're really good at.

Such good advice. Could not agree more. However, it does sound a little bit easier than it actually is. Putting it into practice, just like going to the gym, as you mentioned. So obviously growth is one of your superpowers. One of the things that you're able to identify right now, looking at so many business owners and employees of companies with this new crazy world that we're in. As you step back and take a look at industries and business today, what are some of the suggestions you have and ways that people can start to move forward, to regain their footing and start moving to a growth plan?

For me, I feel like, you know, having been a sort of advisor and consultant for a decade on growth and sales at a company called Gartner, which is the world's largest analyst and consulting firm for tech companies, is the lack of investment that was made around technology. Pre pandemic really caught a lot of businesses flat footed because if you have to close your doors overnight and you don't have an e commerce presence, you're in trouble. If you close your doors overnight and your employees don't have the ability to use cloud based products to work from anywhere, you're in trouble. If you don't have the ability to communicate with your customers, I mean you even have to know who they are, you're in trouble. So I think what has happened was it kind of showcased and highlighted the lack of investments that had been made. But what has been really inspiring is over the last 12, 13, 14 months is how quickly small businesses entrepreneurs have pivoted to making those technology investments and doing the things they need to do to make sure their employees are safe and capable of doing their job. But getting back to growth requires a very different mindset today because the buying and selling engine is now all digital and it doesn't matter if you're selling a hard good or you're selling a service. Ultimately you have to figure out what do our customers want tomorrow from us or six months from us. And it's not going to look the way it looked 12 months ago. So if you just sort of step in and go, we're just going to keep doing what we were always doing. Now the world's opening back up, you're going to be very disappointed because the customers are different, the habits are different and more specifically, customers expectations have changed. We now are these super consumers that live in our and shop and educate and do healthcare in our homes. And now you want us to go back to work, to an office. But ultimately the behaviors we've now learned over the last 12 months are ingrained. And so if you try to just force the way it always used to be, you're not going to get those same results. So there's so many moving parts. But I would say especially in the entrepreneur and small business, they have been so resilient and so dedicated to making sure that they open back up and continue to serve their customers if at all possible. Some weren't able to make it, but then it's. What is the lesson learned and how do you set yourself up for success going forward?

Wow, there's so much that you just gave us. One of the things that I've been hearing from business owners is they want their employees back in the office, right? People are vaccinated. They need to come back to work. And I'm seeing a lot on social media where companies are getting harassed basically by people coming out publicly and saying, you can't make people go back. What does that actually look like? And how can business owners encourage people to get them to come back?

Listen, there is no blueprint for what we're dealing with. Like, there is no answer. Nobody has the this is the way to do it, and we know it's going to work. Everybody's learning as we go. And depending on where you are in the United States, it's very different. I mean, Heather and I were talking about this, right? Miami is very different from Los Angeles. So even within the US you have varying degrees of going back to work and what that looks like and being more social and out at events and things like that again. So first and foremost, employee safety, health and wellbeing is number one. And so if you are saying, come back to the office, clearly communicate what that looks like and what it doesn't look like.

Right?

Because you may have some employees that are like, I'm ready to go back today. You have some employees that are like, I want to go back, but I want to go back in a hybrid model. You know, I want to work it from home and I want to work in the office. And you may have some that say, absolutely not, I don't want to go back. And so what are you going to do? The other challenge is lots of employees during this time have moved because they wanted to get out of cities or they wanted to, you know, take their fence. So now they've moved, but they want to keep working for who they're working for, and now they want them back in the officer. Well, I don't even live in that state anymore. I'm working.

I didn't even think of that. Tiffany, that is such a great observation, because the entire city of New York City now lives in Miami, and I don't know how those people are going to commute.

So that's part of it. Right, but you also have payroll is different. You know, Cost of living in Los Angeles is very different than cost of living in Montana or Idaho or whatever. And so. Or even Texas, because Texas doesn't have state tax. And I mean, there's all kinds of things or, and. Or Florida. So, you know, what do you do about pay? Like I'm paid like I live in Los Angeles or I'm paid like I live in New York, and now I live in, you know, somewhere else, and the cost of living is much lower, and now I'm going to live large because my pay is like I'm living in a big city. So there's all kinds of things to think about. But I think first and foremost, you know, if you are a business owner, entrepreneur, or a lead, you know, in a division of a business is ask your employees what they want. Do they want to come back to the office? Do they want to come back? In a hybrid model, how many of your employees don't want to come back at all? And what does that look like? And then have people moved? And how are you going to handle that? And, you know, how are you going to visit customers? It's kind of this rules of engagement, like, how do we get back to business while we keep people safe? And regardless of what you think about the pandemic or don't think about the pandemic, it isn't necessarily just about you.

Right.

It's about those around you. And so that's where I think we don't know the answer. And everyone's trying to find the way. But for Salesforce, we've said May 15th, we're going to do test group of people coming back to the office. It's a volunteer group that's been vaccinated and see if what we've put in place works and how do we schedule and how do we get teams together and what does it look like? And then as we learn, we'll let more and more people back or we won't. Right? But we don't know until we start to try. So I think that's sort of the lesson here is nobody knows the answer. You've got to find it for your own employees, for your own company. But my first piece of advice would be ask them. If you don't know the answer to how many people want to come back, want to work hybrid, or don't want to come back, then how do you build a plan?

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So true. And great advice because company culture is everything and when you have angry employees, you will have angry revenue lines for sure to reflect that. So you are in such demand, Tiffany, for your keynote speeches, you travel all over the world. Literally, as you mentioned, two days before the pandemic hitting, you just gotten back from Australia for a keynote. How did that affect affect your business? And how do you see the speaking business changing as we move forward?

Yeah, it was overnight. I mean, literally, you know, I was in Sydney of March of last year. I was in region for two weeks and we had something called World Tour Sydney that was going to happen on, I think it was like March 8th and we had 7 or 8,000 people coming to the Sydney Convention center for this world tour. And literally seven days before it, and I was already in region. We canceled it and went virtual because starting that first week of March, it was starting to get a little unsure of what was going to happen. And so we just can't. And especially what was going on in Sydney and Asia Pacific in general, it was a little bit of a hotspot at that moment. So we closed it and we immediately went to a virtual event. Well, of course, everyone was in region already, so we literally went to the convention center, set it up like we were having the event on the keynote stage. There just were no chairs, there was just nobody in the audience. And so it was a virtual event, which we were going to do hybrid anyway, because it's what we do. But it just became virtual only. And Instead of having 7,500 people, we had 80,000 people show up and watch the event. So it taught us a lot. And then of course, over time, we got better and better and better and what that was going to look like. So last year I did almost double in keynotes of what I had done in 2019, but it was now I can do something in Europe, something in the US and something in Sydney in the same day. So good for the audiences, but much busier for me. But I will tell you, it was really uncomfortable. It was scary. It was, is it going to be as interesting and fun? Am I going to get what I love? So Much about the feedback from the audience, all of those things. But once again, it's about honing your craft and becoming a student of what your profession is. So I watched, I don't know, 20 or 25 hours of YouTube videos to figure out how do I set up a home studio? Like, what does lighting look like? Like, what now I know. Like, I miss my AV guys.

Like, where are a whole new respect for them.

A whole new respect. But because I'm in Los Angeles, thankfully my neighborhood, like across the street from me is a lighting guy for movies. So I had him come over. Then on the other side of the street is like a sound guy. And like he came over like. So, you know, I tried to take advantage of the neighborhood. You know, it's been. Sometimes it's really great and sometimes it's not. But I think people are enjoying the fact that they get to see a little bit more on the personal side of us versus just being on stage and a lot more interaction. Because you can't do Q and A. Sort of in an audience of four or five thousand people, you can do it, you know, a Q and A on a zoom call. So I'd say that it was scary and challenging and I'm itchy to get back. But I also feel like there's been a lot of value out of this as well. So, you know, I feel like we're going to land in a hybrid for, for keynote speaking as well as events, try to figure out how they do it.

It sure is going to be interesting to see how things change. Because I'll tell you, we had, in the class that I'm teaching, we had an expert come on on communication and she was saying that everything is going to be remaining Zoom and that, you know, zoom will continue to be the standard platform. And then, you know, fast forward. I was at a live event two weeks ago for entrepreneur organization and they said doing is going live. We are not doing Zoom anymore. People are zoomed out. So it really. There is so much conflicting information depending who you speak to. Much like the coronavirus and the pandemic where some people are saying everything will stay this, this remote way and other people saying because we had remote for so long, it's going to be the next roaring twenties. What are your thoughts on that?

I feel like it, you know, this is kind of a cop out answer, but I do believe it will fall somewhere in the middle. I think that you're able to reach a lot more people virtually if people can't afford to fly in and stay at a hotel and pay to go to an event, but they actually really do want to go and improve their career or learn something new or whatever it might be. Both on the wellness and health and wellbeing side, as well as the business side, I've been able to attend a lot more things that I would not have been able to attend because I couldn't get there or I couldn't afford to go, or I had a conflict. I now I can watch it on demand. So I feel like it's giving access and opportunity to far more people than if they were just in person. But then I think in the in person side, what can you do to take advantage of the fact that having those hybrid events. So I've seen hybrid events. I did something for a company in Brazil and they had maybe 150 people live, you know, in tables, and then There was probably 7,000 people remote on video screens, Right? And so it was a hybrid of there was someone on stage asking me questions virtually, and then people in the audience would stand up and ask me a question virtually. But I was on the big screen, so it was like I was there. But then there was kind of like an American Idol or the Voice where they've got all these videos of everybody who's in the audience that isn't really physically there. But what a great experience. I couldn't be in Brazil. Not everybody could get to that event. The event was literally 10,000 people. They normally get about 2,000, but because they opened it up virtually, they got 8,000 more people that were able to enjoy the information. It was an entrepreneur event for Latin America. So I just say that I don't think we should aspire to go back to the way that it was. And nor do I think we should dig our heels in and say we want it to stay the way that it is. I think we need to find that. Is there a happy medium where you can give more people access, you can make them more fun and interesting. But I think as humans, we like. We're social creatures, we like people. So, you know, part of the reason I want to get back on the road is I actually miss people and having the conversations. I mean, it's great to see you. You know, Heather, it's wonderful to see your beautiful face and it's great to talk to you, but at the end of the day, I wish we were sitting together having a cup of coffee.

I'll tell you, I'm the same way. And I know a lot of people don't feel this way, but for Me, just the energy of being able to sit in the same room with someone. I feel like there's such a stronger connection. Even though we can make the best of zoom, especially for speaking engagements and to the point of speaking engagements, I am constantly asked about, how do I become a better speaker? How do I get myself to speak up? You are literally at the top of the speaking game. Can you share some of your tips and best practice with us on what makes you such a great speaker?

I've always had the gift of gab. I remember, like, my best friend's dad. I was probably 8. We were in a car driving to the beach because I'm from Hawaii. And so we were going from one side of the island to the other side of the island to go to the beach. And he literally just, like, stopped the car, turned around and said, stop talking. Like, you have to stop talking. Like, oh, okay. Like, I was having fun. Like, chitter chattering and having a good time. So, first of all, I love the gift of gab. So that's kind of one thing. Professionally, I can tell you that I wasn't very good at the beginning. It was crazy, actually. I saw a video recording of one of my very first, like, official keynotes that I was getting paid for. And I look back now, and I'm like, oh, I just cringe when I watch it now. Did the audience think it was as bad as I thought it was? I don't know.

Right?

But I was, no.

We're always harder on ourselves.

You know, I was mortified. But what I did was I started asking everybody for a video copy of my presentation. And, you know, not for public consumption, but for me to watch at the same time. I would watch people who I really enjoyed, their speaking style or their presentation or whatever it might be. So I did two things. So whether it was, you know, Barack Obama or an Oprah Winfrey, who are both masterful orators, and then you'll say, okay, who's a really good interviewer? Is it a Robin Roberts? Is it? Who is it? And then who has done this amazing presentation where I was in the audience and I would watch them? But here's what I would do. I would listen and not watch. So I would listen for the pace of their speech. Did they pause? Did they speak quietly when they were really trying to make a point? How were they vocally telling the story? Then I would watch the video and not listen. So I'd say, are they pacing on the stage? Are they fussing with their hair? They put their hands in and out of their pockets. What's their mannerisms on stage? So I was really honing the craft. Going back to what I was saying a few minutes ago, becoming a student of your profession. Now, I don't want you to replicate the way someone speaks or the way that they were, but then you can see, wow. I actually always put my hands in my pocket. It doesn't look good because you don't see it in yourself. And so that was watching myself watching and listening in those two scenarios, right? Watching without listening, listening without watching. And I would work on it and work on it and try new things and, like, try to do a whisper when I'm standing on the edge of a stage. And did I draw them in or were people like, did it not land right? Or did I, like, hold my hands in the air and like, oh, I love this. Like, you know, was that to Tony Robbins? Did I. You know what I mean? Like. And so then you found your own way of feeling comfortable on stage and what resonated. And so I still do that today. I will watch a video. I will listen to what I say. You know, I was doing stuff six or seven months ago, and I realized, like, my voice was really loud on the recordings and I'm not shouting, but it must have been what I had in the setting of the microphone. But I had not gone back and watched it. I wouldn't have realized that it sounded like I was shouting. And so you have to kind of do that. So that's kind of the work you have to do going back to do the work. But the second thing I'd say is, if you're trying to break into speaking more, just speak, like, whether it's your kids PTA meeting, like, be the person who leads the meeting or your Girl Scout selling cookies, like, be the one that says why you're doing it, or reach out to your local radio station or TV station. You got something, you just have to actually do it. And it doesn't mean you have to do it in front of 10,000 people, or it doesn't mean you have to do it to get paid. It means you need to do it in whatever venue that means so that you can learn the craft. And it will not happen overnight, and it will feel really awkward, and you will feel like you're not very good at it. But if you do the work, you know, you will get better with each presentation.

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Yeah, that's what I just took so clearly from what you shared is you really put the work in. The fact that you were watching the physical without the audio. The fact that you were listening to the audio without the physical. You know, I've never done that. However, the one thing that I just thought of that I did do was when I gave my TEDx talk, I watched every flipping TEDx talk that has ever been given for the same things that you're saying. I wanted to see what did I like and what were some of the strategies that they were employing that I could possibly incorporate into my talk and taking those pieces of what you liked and saw and what might work for you. One of the things that has been brought up to me over the last year as anytime you grow and start meeting new people and get into new arenas, obviously you're gonna get different feedback and input and I'm interested in yours. I've had people come to me and say, I think you should change your messaging. I think you should speak on a different topic. So not so much about delivery, but instead of actually what the content that I'm bringing forward, what are your thoughts on how to choose the content for your speeches?

That's such a great question. Because I think if someone came to me and said, I want you to talk about being broken open, like your experience, Heather, right? Being let go. Like all the things you experience. If someone said to me like I want you to go give a keynote like that, I'd be like, okay, first of all, it's not authentic to my story because it's not my story. And maybe I don't have a story like that. So how could I tell a story like that if I don't have a story like that? So you have to be careful when people sort of try to push you into a direction of a topic or content, that it isn't something that's not true to who you are, that it comes off not authentic and all of those things, otherwise your audience will know it right away. But I will tell you that if you said something very quickly in your presentation and someone goes, I'd love to hear more about that little thing you said. That's really great advice because you said it. And then like, so that happened with me. It was about like just even sharing the story about going to the gym and, you know, finding your confidence and, you know, learning through failure and all of that. And someone said you very quickly talked about that. I created a presentation called building your confidence muscle. It was something I never would have talked about before because it was not my content lane, if you will. Right. But once someone said, I really like that, I'd like to learn more. And I have to tell you, it was probably one of the best presentations I ever gave. It was the most personal and authentic and it wasn't business oriented and it wasn't stats and you know what I mean? It wasn't like, you know, the business lingo. It was very personal. And normally people wouldn't hear that from me. So I was like, wow, that really landed. And so how do I keep developing that story and making it something? So when people say, what can you talk about? I can talk about this da, da, da. And then I can talk about building your confidence, which worked really well for different kinds of events. So I think that as long as it's true to you, you're passionate about it, you have a joy in talking about it, then I say, give it a shot. You may realize that it's not right for you or it's maybe too personal and you're not ready to share it in that way. But I think even for someone like you like your story, your original story that started talking about open doors for all kinds of other things. So it's. How do you find that journey and find a story that people would find interesting?

I love that. I love that advice of someone's hearing you speak and then interested and curious to know more on a topic. That is great advice and really good insight. Okay, on the speaking topic again, because I get asked about this all the time and I'm interested to know how you handled this. Specifically on Zoom. I did not use any slides and any presentations I've given in the last year just because I personally thought I don't want people disengaging. That was my biggest concern, you know, having meetings on Zoom, speaking on Zoom, Et cetera. What is your strategy on zoom and. Or in person? Do you change? Do you. Do you use slides? Do you not use slides? And how do you manage that?

Yeah. So my perspective, and this is my opinion, it's not from any sort of research or someone else said it, but I believe that when you are listening to a presentation or watching a presentation, you are not totally dialed in for 40 minutes. You know what I mean? Like, you're not. Like, I'm hanging on every word Heather says or Tiffany says. Like, and I'm everything. Yeah, we wish, right? We can make more money. We cannot make more time. So my goal is to make sure that when someone's done listening to my presentation, that they feel like that was a good use of their time, that they don't leave and go. That was totally a waste of my time. That is more crushing to me than they thought I was a terrible presenter or the content was for. But if they said you wasted my time, I mean, it would be crushing, right? For me, personally. So I believe that people bounce between listening, watching, reading, and something else. So if you only give them one medium, right? So even like a podcast, if it's just voice, you're just listening to the voice, and so your mind might wander away from the voice and then plug back in, right? But if you're watching a slide, you're giving someone that you're talking loosely about what's on it, and so they may be kind of listening to you, but now you've captured their attention with what you have on the slide, and then they come back to you, Then they listen to what you have to say, and you might show another slide. They're so, like, interested in what you have to say, they're not looking at the slide, but then you say, and then they're looking at the slide. So it's kind of like you're giving them two ways to absorb your message. So it's not possible to give them multiple. You know, that's why people put video in presentations, right? Or they put a sound bite because you're trying to mix the medium to give, keep people interested. So I always worry that if it's just voice, especially on a zoom call, it might be two slides. It doesn't need to be 50 or 30, but it could be two. Just so you're sort of giving something to anchor on, on the conversation so people can bounce back and forth. But that's my. My opinion. You know, I've had them where I have no slides, and it's a fireside chat, Q and A. But for me to just present on a topic like this without Q and A, like, if I were just talking about all these things, would people stay engaged for 40 minutes? Or do they want to hear the conversation, which is why podcasts do so well. Or even if you're thinking about Clubhouse now, you know, it's just voice. It's kind of radio with Q and A. It's kind of, you know, Sirius XM where you can pick all the channels and listen to what you want to. But now you can have conversations like phone in radio show now has hit the web. But what makes it different is the questions from the audience, right? And the unique perspective and the questions that you get, that mixes up the medium. Because if it was just five people talking about stuff, you might be less interested. So that's how I feel about the difference in medium. It doesn't mean, Heather, you're not interesting enough to obviously capture the attention for the full 20, 30, 45 minutes, whatever it is. But I always feel like not everyone listens and learns the same way.

You just gave me this unbelievable epiphany that when you talked about jumping back and forth between different types of communication, whether it be video, actual static image, or just standing there speaking, you are going to keep them interested. That just took me right back to 2019. I had the opportunity to interview Sarah Blakely and Jesse Itzler live on stage. One of the things that at the beginning when we were planning this event, we talked about, we want this to be totally different. We do not want it to be boring. And so I said, let's incorporate a speed round of questions. Let's bring some video in of Sarah climbing up on this balloon that, you know, Jesse never saw before. What can you guys bring? And they decided we're going to bring feeds from our social media. We brought so much, but people went wild. It wasn't just like you were saying, sitting with a microphone, asking the how did you launch Spanx? It was so different. And so that you just challenged me to start rethinking how I present, especially through zoom, because I've been so hard and fast with my decision that I did not want to use slides. So thank you very much for opening my mind to that because I'm super excited now. What I'm going to come up with.

Well, you know, it's not about us, right? Once again, it's about who's on the other side and did they feel it was valuable. And so, you know, I'd say take all your Learnings from everything you watched on a TED Talk. It may just be an image, it may be a word, it may be right. It doesn't have to be a lot. But the power of TED is it's short, it's concise, and it keeps you engaged. Right. Because it's images. And sometimes people will go up there and just talk, which is equally impactful. But I think even if it's just a word, you know, and less is more, I, unfortunately, I remain fairly consistent whether I'm on stage or on a zoom of sort of the content I'm presenting, because people are looking for that content. So I can either just talk about the content, which doesn't always land because there's a lot of stuff going on, or I have the image that helps support what I'm saying. And I don't actually go over what's on the slide. I'm talking about something else because I'm being mindful of the fact that they're probably bouncing between both reading what's on the slide and listening to me.

Oh, my gosh, Tippi, this is so good, so helpful. I know you're helping so many people listening right now. So when people want to find you, how do they find your podcast?

So I have a podcast called what's Next With Tiffany Bova, and Heather's been on it. So you'll have to listen to Heather's podcast first. I think it was. I don't know, I just crossed 100. So I think you were in the 60s, I think, because it's been a couple years. I think it's been like three years, hasn't it?

Yeah, two years at least. Yeah.

And so there's what's Next with Tiffani Bova, which is on all the podcast platforms. And then, you know, you can follow me on social media. I'm really active on LinkedIn and Twitter and Instagram. And then, you know, my book Growth iq, it's now translated in nine languages. I feel like she is making her way around the world without me. So, you know, I look forward to. To getting back on the road and joining her, but that's really probably the best ways to keep in touch.

Well, Tiffany, I can't wait. First of all, we'll put all the links in the show notes below, and I can't wait to actually get to see you and meet you in real life in person. I can't wait for that day. So please keep me updated on your travel schedules, as I would love to see you whenever you're going to be out on the East Coast.

Excellent. Thank you for having me, Heather. Thanks, everybody for joining us.

Thanks for tuning in, guys. I decided to change that dynamic. I couldn't be more excited for what you're going to hear. Start learning and growing. Inevitably something will happen. No one succeeds alone.

You don't stop and look around once in a while. You could miss it.

Come on this journey with me.