#145: What You Need To Know To Break FREE From Burnout with Davida Ginter

Stress. When it happens every now and then, that's not a problem at all. But when it's constant on a regular basis, this is too much to carry. And the actual definition of burnout is chronic work related stress that has not been successfully managed. So really the problem is not stress, it's how we cope with it, how we not let it becomes a regular part of our routines that burden us and get us all paralyzed at times.

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Fasten your seat, I'm ready for my close up.

Hi and welcome back. I'm so excited for you to meet my guest today. I selfishly am having her on because I need to hear and learn from her. To Davida Ginter is the co founder and CEO of EnKindle Global, an organization that leads global efforts to eliminate burnout. She's the author of the book Burning Out, Won't get yout There, which features interviews and conversations with worldwide leaders and change makers. She's the founder of the Sustainability Center Be the Change and has been recognized internationally for her work in the field of values based communication for sustainability. Davita, thank you so much for joining me today.

Thank you for inviting me. I'm delighted to be here.

So tell me, I'm confused when I hear burnout. You are speaking to me because I feel as though I'm burnt to a crisp right now. But as I thought more and more about it, I wondered is burnout different than stressed out or is it the same thing?

Definitely different. And that is always so interesting to explore that because there is a wide misconception about this. People assume that stress and burnout are the same when it's actually far from being true. The thing about stress, and this is really interesting, that it's not a negative thing by itself. There is a vast research showing that stress by itself is not a problem. It could actually be a positive thing that push us forward to pursue our goal. It creates adrenaline, right? It creates this drive. The problem, however, starts when we perceive stress as negative and then we get caught up in this loop and we get actually stressed out by thinking that this is a stressful situation rather than coping with it. And then the other problem starts or continues when stress is not happening occasionally but constantly. So if I can give you an analogy, if you will now grab a glass of water or your cup of coffee and I would ask you to hold it up in the air for five Minutes, that's not too challenging, right? But if I'd ask you now to hold it up in the air for an hour, that is a bit more heavy on your muscle, but still something feasible for you to do. What if I'd ask you to hold up your glass of water up in the air for 12 hours a day, six days in a row? That. Exactly. I can see your expression now. And you can imagine that is a real burden. And the same goes for stress. When it happens every now and then, that's not a problem at all. But when it's constant on a regular basis, this is too much to carry. And the actual definition of burnout as coined by the World Health Organization is chronic work related stress that has not been successfully managed. Really the problem is not stress, it's how we cope with it. How we not let it become a regular part of our routines that burden us and get us all paralyzed at times.

I was reading an article that you were recently interviewed for in Forbes and it was talking about some of the statistics around the percentage of employees that actually are burnt out over stressed right now. And I believe it was 83%.

Yeah, well that was a few months ago, shortly after I believe the second wave of COVID And to be honest, there isn't an accurate number data on stress and burnout because it keeps changing. The last 18 months since COVID hit took a serious toll on people's emotional well being for different reasons. Dissolving boundaries. A lot of balls to juggle in the air.

Uncertainty.

Uncertainty, exactly. Dealing with the unknown remotely when we really wanted to socialize with people and or co workers. And that means that every time you ask a person how do you feel, their answers keep changing. And this is something we really understand. This is so. It makes so much sense on the human level. And now it's up to us. And we had this brief chat just before we started recording. It's up to us to decide how we need to cope with this ever changing situation. Because this is our reality. Regardless of COVID We are living in an over busy, ever demanding environment. Now what do we want to do with it?

One of the things that you mentioned before we started recording was just the idea of acceptance and accepting the situation to help us lower the stress. Can you explain that?

Yeah, absolutely. Again, I can start with an analogy which is let's say I'm an athlete training for the Olympic Games in a marathon, right? I want to run the marathon. I've never done that. Maybe one day. So it's not that I Show up to the Olympic Games, to a real marathon, running for the first time, the 42 km. I will run before that many different hills and terrains and within different weather conditions because I want to prepare myself for whatever will come my way. That way, when I will fly to a different country, different times, on different weather conditions, different soil, even to run on, I'll be prepared. And that's basically how resilience is being built, right? You prepare before the challenge because sometimes you cannot predict the challenge. You don't know the territory until you walk on it. And going back to our discussion about learning to accept and live with your reality is not really about feeling like a victim or this is our reality and that's just the way it is and we need to live with it. It's more about this is our new reality now. How do we turn that into an opportunity for growth? How do we prepare ourselves not just professionally, but also mentally, emotionally, to deal with the unknown, to deal with uncertainty. From there, it really opens or paves a path of creativity, of innovation. Innovation is not just about building machines. It's about also innovate our routines, our lifestyle. This is why I'm calling it an opportunity to really reinvent. How do we want to live our lives and our work routine, our social lives, our parenting? Maybe there are different aspects coming in together in this new reality.

Davita with so many people, myself included, knee deep in the anxiety, knee deep in the uncertainty. I have past clients, clients reaching out to me, saying, heather, my employer's mandating I get a vaccine to come back into the office. I don't want to go back to the office, I don't want to get a vaccine. I don't know what to do. And then conversely, there's people like me that want live speaking events happening again because we make more income when that happens. And every time one gets canceled, it's so frustrating and it feels so stressful depending on which side you're on, I feel like no matter where you are, there is this high level of continued stress. Like you said, holding the glass up for days and days at a time, it's not possible. What are some of the tactical tips that you give people to implement in their life to overcome this kind of burnout?

I'll start by saying, and really that's always the first reply, because this is the foundation that there is no one size that fits all. To be honest, when we try to blindly follow others advice when it comes to our emotional well being, that could actually, actually be more harmful if we Try to, say, employ a practice that another person seem to be doing and it's working well for them, but it's not a good fit for me. I could suffer from that if I would compare myself to another person. Keep asking, why can't I meditate? I don't know, why can't I start jogging, whatever it is? So you really want to choose for yourself the practices that suits your preferences and values and personality and routine. And with that said, so we have this foundation that we want to test and try for ourselves, really. There are many practices we could share, but I can offer three main themes that I usually start with. And under those umbrellas, there's a lot of freedom for creativity. And the first one is setting boundaries. I think that many times people fall into this trap that we need to achieve it all and we need to be nice and kind to people, which is wonderful. But then we say yes to everything and we want to accomplish so much at once that we simply forget to set our own boundaries. And how about instead of just keep saying yes and feel bad from, you know, the inside how, instead of that developing some sort of compass that helps you navigate between all those decisions and set your boundaries. So, for example, ask yourself, what increases my level of energy and what drains it? And that's a fair question, you know, And I can say yes to something which is really challenging, but really lifts up my energy. But then again, say no to something that might give me some income, but I feel that is totally, you know, taking the win out of my sales or something like that. So you really want to navigate there according to what you believe is important for you and what you want to stand up for.

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Well, thank you.

That you bring up a good point. So one of the companies I did a keynote for, it's a large company, they're mandating their employees come back to work and have the vaccine. And I'm getting messages from their employees saying they don't want to. So for that person, what is the boundary that person sets because they're afraid to lose a job? How do they handle that?

Well, to begin with is to have a dialogue, an open one, an open conversation with their boss and openly say I feel that my privacy has been invaded, that I'm entitled to make my own choice and from there to take it on. And but you see, that's the interesting part, which is very challenging also if it's the company's policy and if there is no other choice and oftentimes there is, there is a creative choice to keep working remotely, to get tested before you walk into the office. If you don't want to get vaccine, there's always a creative outlet. But if there isn't, then it really boils down to your own boundaries. So just ask yourself this tough but much needed question. What Am I more afraid to lose my current job, but you can probably find a new one. Maybe. I don't know. It really depends on the case. Maybe you need to provide for your family right here, right now. But again, why are you more afraid to lose your current job or your core value that you're not waiting for someone else to force you to get vaccinated? And there's always, when you balance the two, there's always a choice. And we always have a choice, even if it's a tough one. And this is what you really need to understand, that this is doing the deep work. Preventing burnout out is really not about pursuing the easy choice. It's about listening to ourselves. Easier said than done. But this is life, right? We really need to make a choice, but then we live peacefully with ourselves, that we did not let anyone else make the call for us. Because I've seen people burnt out, not because of the workload, not because they were underpaid, because someone else decided for them. And those were the severe cases of burnout, not people who worked, I don't know, more than 10 hours a day. That's not very nice, but that's manageable. When they felt that they can't voice their opinion and their own values, that's when they got burnt out severely.

Wow, that is so true. And I've lived that firsthand. Okay, so boundaries are the first B. What are the other two boundaries is the first B.

You identified it correctly. The second B would be balance. And I know that people love talking about work life balance. I wrote an entire paragraph about that in my book. But life has changed, reality has changed. Who knows what work life balance is now anyway? How about instead of calling it that way, we'll find a more realistic model. Sounds more like work life blend or work life harmony, or work life synergy or whatever allows us to stay the person that we are at work and the professional that we are also at home in our personal life. And that is to say that every time that we try to draw an artificial line, a separation between the two spheres, there is this bothering dissonance because that means that we cannot be ourselves in the workplace. And that means that we cannot bring our concerns from work back home. And we need to keep putting this mask of toughness on, you know, being the rock. And that is a very, very stressful and demanding place to be. So this is not really what we want to create. I have Nothing against work life balance, but it doesn't work that well anymore. I want to suggest a different kind of balance and actually the balance that I would like to suggest regardless to the harmony and blend I was talking to is a more self personalized created balance. It's basically to look at your own needs. What are you currently lacking in your routines and balance that complement those routines with different activities that nourish you that providing for those needs. Let's say I'm working all day long in front of my computer screen, right? This is wonderful, but it's my work. So after work I really want to socialize with people. I want to complement this routine and balance that in the way that suits me. But what if I work in a hectic, noisy environment? I need some me time. I want to, I don't walk outside, hiking nature, you know, being with myself or read quietly or write quietly in my case. So the way I see a far more accurate balance that actually meets your own needs.

I love what you said there because for me I love being around people, I love being outside, I love being active. And the past year and a half has meant me being inside my house working from my computer day in and day out and for very long hours. And one thing that's a non negotiable for me is to leave to work out outside and go for a walk at least once a day. I don't care what time it is. But when I don't have that, I feel so much worse.

Yeah, exactly. Because you just found a way that uplifts you and your energy. We are going back to that. A practice that rejuvenates you and recharges you. We never forget to recharge our own cell phone, right? What about ourselves? What about our own battery? We are not a machine. But we definitely need to recharge ourselves every now and then to just, you know, feel good, keep being ourselves, keep leading, keep serving, keep parenting, keep doing what we do. This is not egoistic to maintain self care. This is truly essential to just keep pursuing our goals and keep living our lives in the best possible way. I really don't see it as egoistic to find those nourishing activities that create this such needed balance.

Okay, so we've got boundaries, we've got balance. What's our final?

Be the final. And my personal favorite one is building support systems. It's tightly connected to resilience that we have mentioned before. And the idea is that you build your support systems before you need it. Support system could be a group of people that you can go and either socialize with or seek for their help or advice or maybe even just one person, but you know that this person will have your back whenever you need it. And it's a lot about or around empathy, which is again not necessarily about sharing advice. Most of the time we just need to be heard and seen by someone else. And so building those support systems, it's about creating those places that we know will share our journey, successes and failures, achievements and mistakes, right? So for better or worse, they are there for us. And I always encourage people to actively go and build and maintain those support systems because when you don't do it proactively, then when you really need it, it's not there. It's like you will never approach someone for professional help for the first time just met the person, right? You want to build a relationship with them. And it's basically the same with those support systems. We are social creatures. We want and need to be surrounded and belong to groups that wants to support us. And this mutual feeling is deeply ingrained in who we are as humans.

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That's really very, very powerful. And I couldn't agree more. When you interviewed the people for the book, were there any that stood out that you thought weren't able to come back from the burnout where it just destroyed them entirely up until now, and.

As I said, I've interviewed people who went through severe burnout being hospitalized. I've never met a person who never fully recovered. However, I met a few who were burned out so badly that it took them a couple of years to gain full recovery. For example, one woman who I'm still in close relationship even with. She's a wonderful person, very sharp. Sometimes she just. And her burnout happened, as I said, three years ago. So when we first talk, it was a year or so until this day. She sometimes just paused and tried to come up with the right word and try to remember something. And then she apologized for that and I asked her what are you apologizing for? And she tells me, David, you should really met me. Before my burnout I was the sharpest person who could articulate myself so well. And now I just can't come up with the right words when I really need them.

I don't understand something. Was it like she literally had a breakdown and ended up in a hospital.

Or breakdown in a hospital with a disease? But it was right after she suffered the burnout and deep stress and had another relative who went through other health issues. So it was everything all together, you know, everything at once. And those are basically what I'm describing. The after effect, the physical symptoms that just followed an emotional breakdown. Yeah. And then again people who just. After a very intense year that included burnout of different reasons, someone told me I went back to my parents place and the person was 28, already living in another country, managing a full team, told me I went back to my parents place. I could not stand the thought of leading people. Now I went back to a place that will just take care, babysit me and I went, crawled into bed and just stayed there for two months to sleep again, 14 hours a day to recover. So you said people recover from burnout, but it's such a long recovery when it's not managed well, when it has been prevented, when they actually hit the wall, it's a long recovery. This is exactly what we want to prevent.

What are the signs that you see before you hit that wall?

So the main three signs, and this is really important that's a really important question. First one is exhaustion, as we said, tiredness. And people told me you couldn't understand that. We slept quite well eight hours at night and we still woke up tired every day. That was emotional exhaustion being translated into physical tiredness. So the first one is exhaustion. The second sign is cynicism. And you feel really negative and disconnected from your work, your mission, your colleagues or your boss. Now we all get sometimes negative and cynical. That's okay. Frustration, when it happens every day, when you really can't stand the phases of the people you are working in, that's a red flag. Something is wrong there. You need to pause and ask yourself, am I on the verge of burnout? The third sign is reduced self efficacy. So it's about our sense of self worth. We are no longer just less productive. We feel less productive, less effective, less creative. Our sense worth is being negatively affected there.

Wow.

I had never heard that breakdown before and I didn't realize that burnout could affect and impact your self worth. That is pretty scary. But I'm glad that you've articulated so clearly. So we know these three things and if you're seeing them, and so often I've been in a situation where going to work every day was negative every day, and you hate going. And there is nothing worth sacrificing your health for and continuing to go back to a place and an environment where you hate being there. You've got to make a change and put yourself first.

Definitely. I love that you say that because you bring up two really significant issues. One is again, our intentional choice. We always have a choice, even if it is to speak up about what's wrong. Now, the second aspect is about our roles as leaders. Now it could be that we are leading our family. We could be leading a team of 10 people. We could be leading our organization of 1,000 employees. If we notice those signs that we just counted, if we notice them, another person, this could be really helpful that we as leaders or colleagues will do something rather than ignoring that. And that also means that changing something within the system is really important. Because, you know, we kept talking now in the last few minutes about what could individuals do and individual practices. But that's just half of the story. The other half belongs to systems, organizations, institutions, communities. I can do all the work on myself, which is really important. But tomorrow morning, if I'm going back to the very same system that contributed to my burnout, then I'm still subjected to this toxic work environment or whatever it is. This is why, for example, When I speak to CEOs or HR and ask them about their well being strategy, and they told me, oh, we gave our workers vouchers for yoga classes or we brought in the massage chair, I know they don't get it. Because if you have problems of broken communication or lack of trust within the company, no massage chair in the world will fix that.

It's so true. And sadly, that's the majority of major companies.

Yeah, I know. This is exactly our work to change, to create a deep cultural change, organizational culture, social culture, whatever it is deep, profound change rather than those superficial and random solutions that scratches, you know, the surface and don't address the root causes.

Oh, well, keep doing your work, davita, because the world needs it and employees in this world need it. How can people find you? And how can people find the book?

Thank you so much. So the book, Burning Out Won't get yout There is available on Amazon or you can find it on my website, davidaginter.com and we have our organization that is dedicated for burnout prevention. We support leaders, organizations, as I said, strategies, whatever is needed for this profound change. We are called Enkindle Global. We work globally. I love my team and their commitment to this mission. So you can also find us@enkindleglobal.com and we are always happy to support with this endeavor.

Well, your passion comes through loud and clear. We can feel it. Thank you so much, Davita. Keep up the amazing work and we will be implementing your strategies.

Thank you so much.

I decided to change that dynamic. I couldn't be more excited for what you're gonna hear. Start learning and growing, inevitably something will happen, happen. No one succeeds alone.

You don't stop and look around once in a while.

You could miss it. I'm on this journey with me.