#17: Don't Pick Up That Phone With Celeste Headlee

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Each week. When you join me here, we are going to chase down our goals, overcome adversity, and set you up for a better tomorrow. Come on this journey with me. Hi, and welcome back to Creating Confidence. I'm so excited you're back here with me. Thank you for joining me again on this crazy journey. Okay, so next week I am in Boston for Hypergrowth. If you have not gotten your tickets yet, there still are tickets left. Check out the code Monahan. I don't know if there are any codes left, but try it. Definitely would love to see you September 3rd next week. I'm so excited. So something interesting that happened through all of this. First of all, this all started back in May where I was connected to Jesse Itzler's business partner through my good friend Scott. And we hit it off. And, you know, even though he said, Jesse doesn't do podcasts, he doesn't have the time, he ended up finding a way so that we could work together. Then a month later, it ended up Jesse's Internet was out. And then I jumped on that chance, flew to Atlanta, went to to meet him at his home. He was so kind to give me some of his time and do the interview there.

We hit it off.

I hit it off with his assistant. Everyone there was fantastic. I left there. I called my friend Scott immediately and shared with him what had happened. And he said, that's so funny you're mentioning this all to me because I was just working with my friends at Hypergrowth and I believe they're having him speak. Like, let me talk to someone over there. It might be great opportunity for you to speak too. You guys now know each other, et cetera, et cetera. The next thing I know, he calls me back and says, heather, they're going to want you to speak. I just spoke to them and I said, sure. However, in business, as you know, there are so many times we see prospects and we think things look good. And I try not to get my hopes up too much about any specific opportunity I've learned just because we don't know what that outcome will be.

So.

So I thought, great. I appreciated his help as always, because he's such a big supporter and help. He helps me so much. But I just moved on. And then, wouldn't you know, it was probably three or four weeks later, I got a LinkedIn message from the woman in charge of Hypergrowth. And I originally had thought I had the keynote, which I was so Excited to do. I do them everywhere. That's my wheelhouse. And then finding out she did not want my keynote. She wanted me to interview Sarah Blakely and Jesse Itzler. And it's so funny, it's a little out of my comfort zone. However, what's interesting is this podcast has really taught me, I've been doing this podcast since May, how to be present in the moment, how to interview someone. And while I had been taking stages by myself prior to this, now I feel much more comfortable. So I've had some practice for the last few months interviewing people live and in real time for shows. So it's sort of eye opening to me when you watch the progress of months ago and how all of these different situations and experiences are building upon one another. However, if someone had asked me in May, hey, Heather, what does your speaking lineup look like for fall? I didn't know I would be at Hyper Growth. I didn't know I would be interviewing Sarah Blakely from Speaking Banks and Jesse Itzler and what? So this is now. Okay, here's the next layer. That's so wild. So the past month has been much more intense than I had anticipated. When you go to do a keynote, you always have a discovery call with your client to find out what the theme of their meetings are, what their expectations are for you, how you can add value, et cetera, et cetera. So this was no different. However, the amount of calls for follow up and work we've had to do around this because it is so unique, is it's been much more involved than I had anticipated. So it started with my original or origination call with Hyper Growth, which was really about, hey, Heather, we want to get to know you. You know, we want to hear about your background and we want to hear about your ideas around the opportunity. So I believe in, you know, thinking outside of the box, being creative. And I came up with a bunch of different ideas that I was so excited about. And again, I sometimes get emotional, let my ideas get ahead of me. They love the ideas. I was so excited for this. Then our next call was with all of the agents with the team. Anyways, some of my ideas were very different. They were not really that traditional type interview. I came up with a bunch of new ideas that I thought would be exciting and a little shocking. So of course some people aren't going to like ideas like that, which is normal and to be expected. So I had to temper my expectations a little bit because I was over the moon about it. Okay, so I regrouped got off the call, did not take it personally, and understood that, you know, really coming from different angles isn't everyone's niche. We didn't really have all the ultimate decision makers on the phone. I had to let it go. Okay. So we were turning to a different route now, and I wanted to find a way to incorporate, you know, some unique aspects into this new and different direction we were going. So I worked hard to do that. I spent a lot of time on research. I watched countless interviews because the more work I can do behind the scenes, the more confident and comfortable I'm going to feel on that stage in that moment. Right. So I don't know, am I? First of all, I personally don't like to bring notes with me. However, after the guidance that I've been given from, you know, these specific individuals I've been working with, it might make more sense for me to have notes. That's not my style. So I'm having to adapt my style to make sure that I'm able to deliver on expectations. So the more I can practice, the more I can prepare, the less I have to feel nervous, anxious, or worry. So, you know, again, in any new situation, and this is a new situation, I typically interview people one on one. Now I'm interviewing a couple together. A couple who each individually has massive success, their own unique story, their own unique accomplishments, and at the same time, are a partnership, are a couple, have a family. So it's a really interesting dynamic. The first thing I did was I reached out to my good friend Cal Fussman, who has been interviewing and a journalist for his entire career. And I said, cal, I. You know, so I always tap someone who's been in the movie that I'm entering into ahead of me, has seen the movie and knows how the movie should be, you know, played out. I said, cal, how do I approach interviewing a couple? Because I've never done that. I want to give each one their unique opportunity to shine and shine for both of them as an entity. And how do I do that? And he was great. He said, heather, you're thinking this through too much. Have a conversation, be present in the moment, and don't start thinking about your next question before you've played out the entirety of that first question the way you would if you were at dinner. And so that's exactly how I've decided to approach it. If I'm asking Sarah Blakely a question about Spanx, and maybe the question is about how did she come up with her idea then, really, to further that question, and finish the conversation. There's always going to be a way organically to involve her husband, Jesse, in some way and how that could parallel into his business. So that's basically what I learned from, again, tapping an expert, which I so, so, so believe in. We are preparing for many things with hyper growth. And while this is all unfolding, I get a call from the team and, and they say, heather, we would really love if you could interview one more person while you're there. We're bringing you in. You know, it'll be a couple hours before. And I said, sure, I'm there. It's not going to be a problem. If nothing else, it gives me the comfort of being on the stage prior to, you know, that new experience for me, interviewing two people. Yes, I'm happy to do it. I find out that person is Jen Rubio, who I did not know. I didn't know who she was at the time. Fast forward to now. I've done so much research on this woman. She is an exceptional business person, a master storyteller. Her background at Warby Parker and her accomplishments at that company, as well as All Saints as well as so many others, is mind blowing. Her new company away, which is a luggage company. She's essentially. She and her co founder have essentially reinvented luggage and how it's seen specifically, specifically for millennials, but not just for millennials, because I certainly am not. And now I've done so much research on her company. I already bought a suitcase. Yes, I did. You will, too, once you check it out. But her company, the valuation is currently over a billion dollars. It actually may be $2 billion right now. And this is only essentially two years into the operation. So.

Wow.

I've researched this woman so much. I am so excited to sit down with her. Something that was really just an afterthought has now become such a fantastic opportunity. And I'm so grateful for all these opportunities. However, I go back to. None of this would have happened if I hadn't pursued and launched my podcast, if I hadn't tapped my network and asked for help for contacts that they had, if I hadn't followed up, even though somebody told me, heather, you're never going to be able to get this guy. If I hadn't followed up with my friends to thank them after I executed and had the interview. You, you know, it's a domino effect that occurs. And I never knew back in May any of these things were going to happen, but they've all built on top of one another. So again, wherever you are. Don't get discouraged in your situation. Just take action, reach out to your network, go for the big idea, the big people. Because you never know who's going to pick up that phone, whose Internet is going to go out, and what plane you can jump on to go face to face. Because that is always and will forever be the answer in my mind. Okay, so other things that have been going on this week, my TEDx talk, my outline is due, I have to get it in. But Also promoting the TEDx talk is really important to the, to the team that puts on the TEDx event. So we went and did some TV promos this week and I found out they need 80 volunteers to put this event on. There are 2,000 seats available for ticket sales at the venue that at FAU where we're holding the event October 26th. And the amount of behind the scenes work, idea sessions, training that goes on to execute an event of this scale and level is enormous. I had no idea. When we sit on our couch and Google, you know, TEDx talks on YouTube, you just see one person standing up there. It really doesn't look like a big deal. It just, it again blows my mind how we may view something as simplistic when the amount of work that really goes into things is huge. And that's no different in your career with what you're doing and what people may perceive on the outside. Same with me. I mean, if people could still see I have a home office, my home essentially has turned into a shipping department because I've shipped out so many copies of my book. It's unbelievable. For trying to get press, trying to work on collaborations, trying to get social media influencers to support it, contesting media. There are so many boxes upon boxes of books and shipping packages in my house and it's been this way for a year now. It's really kind of crazy, but it constantly reminds me of where I was on day one and where I am now a year later after my book has launched and the work that went in and how much more work can I do now? How can I work smarter, how can I work more efficiently? But I don't want to take my foot off that gas pedal. I just now have more revenue streams going. So it's constantly evaluating, you know, where is the best use of my time and how can I move things forward in the most efficient and powerful and impactful way. Okay, so those have been two big things I've been working on this week. Now I want to talk to you about my guest today. And this is interesting. You know, I'm a huge fan of going face to face, and frankly, I can't stand doing my interviews over Zoom, over the Internet. It is not. Oh, it's a pet peeve of mine.

But.

But there are times where, you know, I've been so immersed in the past 60 days in building my speaking business and working on my second book and the book proposal and the TED Talk and some other different things. I'm working on some different brand partnerships. I haven't had that opportunity to travel much, if not at all. So I had to essentially, you know, build up that pipeline of some of these great interviews via Zoom. Not my favorite. However, today I love this interview, even though I did it via Zoom. But of course, there were complications, and I just want to cut to the chase. I will always believe that done is better than perfect. I live my life this way. You can look back at my entire media career in corporate America for two decades. This is how I roll. I would rather move forward with my idea, move forward with my project, and go after it with vengeance and fervor versus sitting back and saying, it's not ready, it's not ready. Speed to market is critical. And for me, this week, this conversation's really interesting because it's lending itself to. I just listened to it again, and it's lending itself to what I'm doing next week. And I hope that it's going to lend itself for you to the conversations you have this week, any stages that you take, any networking opportunities you may go on, or even just dinner with your family, because there were some really impactful moments from this conversation that I took major information and cues from, and I've made changes, and I hope that you can, too. So here's what I need to do. I need to introduce you to my guest, Celeste Headley, and I need to give you a little background, because the imperfection of this interview lies in this. I am not an expert on Zoom. I am not an expert remote interviewer. So when I queued up my Zoom and Celeste and I could see each other, and we're looking at each other and speaking, it looked like it was running fine. I said, yeah, we're good. Let's go, and we'll just edit out the beginning. Well, come to find out, I had not pressed record. So in all the tragedy that's there, we had been on the call for about 15 minutes when I realized that there was a big red light shining from the bottom of my computer. And I thought, oh, my gosh, I Have not hit that. I hit it right in that moment. Unbeknownst to Celeste, I made the decision, I trusted my instinct that stopping her at this point and saying, oh, you know, I didn't record the first 15 minutes, so let's just start again. I said, you know what, we're having a great conversation. I don't want to interrupt her flow. And I just hit record. We're going to pick up there. I'm going to give you a little behind the scenes on what Celeste and I had talked about so that you can get caught up. But it's still a fantastic interview. You'll have to let me know DM me is done better than perfect. I truly think it is. I just listened to this again. But I want to hear from you. I want to hear how you do it or if you would have scrapped this and started over. I would love to learn from you, but I think it's pretty powerful. And let me know in the DMs please, on any social media. Okay. Celeste Headley, she's an award winning journalist. She's a professional speaker. She's the author of we need to Talk Having Conversations that Matter. She's an over 20 year career in public radio. She's been the executive producer of On Second Thought at Georgia Public Radio. She's anchored various programs. I mean she's a major journalist. She's been the co host of national morning news show the takeaway from PRI. She's done presidential coverage. She's got a massive TEDx talk. It's got I think 20 million views to date. In addition, she's an NPR host journalist. She's interviewed hundreds of people. Through her work, she's learned the true power of conversation and its ability to both bridge gaps or deepen wounds. In a time when conversations are often minimized to a few words in a text message and lack of meaningful communication, Celeste sheds a much needed light on the loss and the essential art of the conversation. Now, her TEDx talk is 10 Ways to have a better conversation. It is funny, it is worth watching. I really, really enjoyed it. And you know what's interesting? Celeste and I are incredibly different. We definitely don't see everything eye to eye. However, I really liked her and I found her so funny and fun and really smart. So if you get a chance, check out her TEDX talk. I'll give you the 10 takeaways right now to her talk. Number one, don't multitask. And again, this is to having a better conversation. Number two, don't pontificate Number three, use open ended questions. Number four, go with the flow. Number five, if you don't know, say that you don't know. Number six, don't equate your experience with theirs. This is an interesting one and worth viewing. Number seven, try not to repeat yourself. Number eight, stay out of the weeds. Number nine, listen. That's a powerful one. And number ten, be brief. So those were the keys to her TED talk again, the 10 Ways to have a better conversation. Her name? Celeste Headley. Yes, I cut the first 15 minutes of this conversation completely by accident, but I'm rolling with it because done is better than perfect and I truly believe you're going to agree with me. I can't wait to hear what you think of her because I guarantee you will take some powerful tips from this conversation that you're going to implement in your life. Please DM me and let me know. But before we get to Celeste, I've got to give you a fantastic offer because you know, I just care about you a lot. So in business you need to know your numbers. We all know that, right? I'm sure you know that. The big problem be not knowing your numbers. 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The cell phone has an effect not just on your brain and where it's really distracting, but it has an effect on the other person's brain as well. They don't trust you as much. They don't find you as likable when that cell phone is sitting on the lunch table. So when you sit down to have lunch with your friend and you're setting the cell phone on the table, you're not the impact that's having on their brains.

There's research to prove that. I feel terrible right now. I was at dinner with a girlfriend last night and I had my cell phone sitting right next to my plate and I didn't do it to, you know, cause harm or have her think that I don't value the conversation. I just think if anything happens with my son, the sitter is going to call. I want to be able to see. That's mind blowing.

Yeah, I know. And you know, obviously we need more research on all of these things to sort of really dig into the impacts of this in all different situations. But yes, you know, it's interesting when I've spoken to a bunch of different cell phone experts on cell phone and tech and its impact on the brain, the number one thing that message they want to get out to people is that the cell phone is changing your brain. The cell phone is not the villain in our piece. There's nothing inherently wrong with the cell phone. It's the fact that it's always present and it's overuse that makes it deleterious. It's not the use of it alone.

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So is your advice to put it in your purse, put it in your briefcase, put it away. Out of sight, out of reach when you are engaging in a conversation or.

You are in a meeting?

Absolutely yes. And if I let's let's say I was going out to dinner with a friend of mine, I would probably put my phone on. Do not disturb and allow only phone calls to come through, then I'd put it in my purse. So if somebody had, if something was urgent, something happened with my dog, my son's 20 now, so it's not, the phone call's not going to be about my son. I would hear the phone ring. It wouldn't be sitting there on the table, you know, having an impact on either me because the phone is very distracting to your brain or on the other person.

So you bring up your 20 year old son, which I find very interesting.

I'm sure he has a cell phone.

And uses it more than you or I do. How, as a parent do you manage that relationship with the cell phone and the multitasking when you're at dinner?

Neither of us use cell phones at dinner. We don't bring them out. He also never neglects to answer my phone calls. He does not turn down a phone call and say, and text me, hey, what's up? If he's in a conversation or he's at work or something else, he'll send me a text saying, I'm at work, you know, is it urgent? Or something like that. But if I call, he picks up the phone. I do not put up with somebody not talking. My son not talking to me on the phone. That's a big one.

Well, you just said, you just said I don't put up with somebody. So it sounds to me like you've taught the people in your life, the.

People that are important to you.

If I'm calling you, I'm, I expect that you would answer the phone. And the same, if you're calling me, I'm not going to just text you back.

Yeah, not in like a mean, an intrusive way. I know. If you're doing something else, that's fine. You know, I will actually leave a voicemail though.

That's old school.

Yeah, I don't leave a voicemail. But, you know, the research backs it up. You know, the voice, the sound of the human voice is what millennia of evolution have designed us to get the most information out. I mean, think about this. Imagine the last time you called a friend up and all they had to do was say hello, and you immediately said, what's wrong?

Right, Right.

In a fraction of a second, you took in an incredible amount of very sophisticated information just from the sound of those two syllables, hello, and you knew something was wrong. That is how sensitive we are to the sound of a human voice. It also, there's research to back up the fact that the human voice is the one that Humanizes another person. In other words. Research from Nicholas Epley in Chicago showed that if you read an opinion you disagree with, read in a book, wherever, you are more likely to think that person disagrees with you because they are stupid and they don't understand the core principles. If you hear them explain it, you're more likely to think they disagree with you because they have different experiences and perspectives. Hearing their voice allows your brain, your subconscious, to recognize that other person as a human being with an independent life and their own thoughts and their own experiences. That's an incredible thing that you lose out on when you try to replace the voice with text. I asked scientists, I remember one who I said, is, at some point, will a written word in any format replace the voice in terms of effective and efficient communication? And you said, she said, it's possible in five to 10,000 years. Wow. Yeah.

So not in this lifetime.

Nope. Or a kid's lifetime.

Wow.

So what you were just describing, which is around the difficult conversations and when we disagree with people, that takes me to your TED Talk and talking about, have you unfollowed people on Facebook because of their political angles or who they support politically? How do you navigate in this very challenging political climate that we live in where people are so aggressive in their opinions, opinionated, and wanting to impart their beliefs on others? Oftentimes, anywhere you go, the grocery store, the hair salon, how do you manage and navigate those difficult conversations?

The number one thing is stop trying to change anybody's mind or educate them, number one, that's pretty much never going to happen. I mean, the chances of it are statistically zero. People don't change their minds because of your facts or your statistics or the experts you can cite. That's not what changes people's minds. When people's minds do change, it usually happens, number one, over time, and usually happens because some kind of empathic bond has been created. Empathic empathy. So, for example, I talk a lot about a piano player named Daryl Davis, who. There's a PBS documentary out about him called Accidental Courtesy. And he, in his spare time, convinces he's an African American dude. He convinces guys to leave the kkk. And he's so good at it that he basically dismantled the KKK in the state of Maryland. And when people ask him, how are you convincing them, you know, you know us have a silver tongue? He says, I'm not trying to convince them of anything. I tell them to convince me. And the important thing that he says is by actively listening to them, I am passively teaching them about myself. And sometimes people just want to be heard.

So he's asking them to explain to.

Him why they believe in the kkk.

Yeah. He'll say, I don't understand how you could hate me without meeting me. So help me understand this. You explain it to me.

And then he's actively listening, actively listening.

To them and he lets them tell their stories and he asks them questions. Then he shows genuine curiosity and it creates this empathic bond. And when you feel an empathic bond with someone else, which is what occurs, engaged listening, it has happening. It is incredibly difficult at that point to dehumanize someone to other rise someone.

But if you're an emotional, because immediately.

I go in my own mind to how I would thinking this man having this conversation with someone from the KKK and he's black. If you're emotional or hot headed, that is incredibly hard to do.

Yeah, yeah.

How is he able to do that?

He doesn't go in hot headed and angry. He goes in with a sense of curiosity. You know, we've kind of lost curiosity. Google, not to blame Google, but search engines have sort of eliminated our curiosity. Right. If you can't remember the Michael J. Fox movie you're thinking of, you just Google it. If you don't. We don't ask people questions, we just google it. But if you start to recapture your own curiosity, if you start to take advantage of the expertise of other people and they are all experts in their own lives and experiences, if you capitalize on that and allow them to tell their stories for you, you will be really surprised at the amount of information out there that cannot be googled.

Well, you talk about that in your TED talk. You talk about everybody is an expert.

In something and you can discover it.

If you're asking curious question questions and having a present moment with them. So how do we begin?

Because I mean, you nailed it.

We don't need to use that muscle.

That mental muscle anymore.

Right. We've got Google at our fingertips. I'm right there with you. I'm googling everything. I'm not asking anyone how they would do it or how they would find a solution within their experiences. How do we re engage with curiosity then since we distance ourselves from it?

I mean, there's a few ways you can go about it. Luckily, whatever your level of comfort is, you can start immediately. So the most important thing is to start actually talking to other people again. Because once you start engaging in conversations, you will be surprised by stuff. People will surprise you, I guarantee it. So you have to sort of just get yourself talking and listening and asking questions. And let's say that you are someone who at this point has avoided conversations so much that you feel socially awkward. That's very common. Then I suggest you start with the conversations with people that are time limited and forced, positive. So that would be your grocery store clerk, your Starbucks barista, meaning that they can only talk to you for maybe 90 seconds at a time and they are paid to be nice to you. So you know it's gonna be a positive interaction and you know it's gonna be short. Start there, right? And then you can move up to like the 10 minute conversation with your Uber driver. The thing of it is, is that your body will reward you for all of those. We have years, years of research showing that those interactions, whether they are with a complete stranger or with someone that you love, as long as they are not hostile, you will get a boost from them. Your cortisol levels will go down, your heart rate will go down. People who have sustained social contact like that live longer. Less prone to diabetes, less prone to cardiac events, less prone to depression. If you're friendly with your neighbors, you're less likely to get burglarized. I mean, the benefits of these kind of conversations are massive. And we also know that loneliness is deadly. Loneliness literally degrades your internal organs. So it's important that you find your curiosity by exercising it, right? You literally have to exercise this muscle in order for it to get stronger. So just start with these small conversations. Ask your barista about her tattoo. Ask your grocery store clerk about the shirt they're wearing or the way that their hair is cut. Just small, limited interactions.

To start, I have to tell you, it's really eye opening to hear the.

Physical and mental repercussions of not engaging in real conversation and real relationships with people. I had no idea it was that powerful. So I would just, you know, when you're explaining, you know, talk to the barista. Sometimes it's hard. And let me elaborate on that a little bit more. People are moving so fast. There's a huge line at Starbucks. There's 20 people. People are trying to, you know, I'm here for my Uber, I use the app ahead of time. You know, it seems a little chaotic at times, and this is just, you know, one example. But people are moving so fast and they also want to appear that they're busy because it makes you feel important or whatever reason. Someone has to wanna. Maybe they're nervous and walking down the street alone and so they're acting like they're busy. But I do get that sense of, I live in Miami and people aren't very friendly on the streets of Miami. It's just, the city is just that way. People move very quickly, sort of like New York and you know, no one's saying hello like you would in the Midwest or maybe in Boston. And I noticed that I've stopped saying hello to people because no one was looking or smiling at me. Sometimes you just kind of fall suit to the surroundings around you. Do you think that that happens just part of society?

Yeah.

And you know, it's, here's the thing, we even have research showing that something as simple as a wave or even making eye contact with a person going by you on the, on the street or smiling at them increases the chances that they're going to feel a sense of belonging. Belonging that will increase their self esteem. It makes them feel somebody's walking on the street of Miami and somebody smiles at them and acknowledges their existence. It makes them feel like they belong there, which has implications for their mental health and physical health and for your well being as well. So one of my favorite things, Nicholas Epley, the research out of Chicago that I mentioned, one of the things he says in this book is, is almost nobody waves, but everybody waves back. So you have to stop waiting for other people to acknowledge you first and just wave and say hi. If you, if you only have 10 seconds with the barista, just compliment them. Nice ring. I like your hair, you know, something like that or. Oh, that's a cool tattoo. I say tattoos a lot because a lot of people have tattoos and they almost always have a story behind them. Almost always. Always. Right. So it's a really easy thing. But also remember, people choose what to wear in the morning so there's almost something that they're wearing that you can note or, or comment on or ask questions about. And it really doesn't take very long. Certainly while your grocery store clerk is ringing stuff up, they're passing stuff over that thing. They don't need to think about it. You can say, hey, I love that name all the time. Because we have live in such a diverse society. I'm always asking people what their names mean. What does your name mean? And they sometimes they don't know. And I'm like, well, that's the best situation because now you get to make it up. It means badass, warrior queen. You can have these conversations all the time and other people, you think other people are going to get irritated but, but other people sometimes get involved in that conversation. They have something to say about it, and they'll chime in and they'll say stuff. You know, it's funny that Terry Gross, the host of Fresh Air on npr, she says the only icebreaker you ever need is tell me about yourself.

Oh, yeah.

People are ready to tell you.

It's so true.

So this almost reminds me, in some regards of charisma. When I'm hearing the things that you're saying and people are jumping into the conversation.

You know, there's this energy around when.

You ask great questions and are being authentic and real and generally care that people start. They become drawn to you in some regard. Do you ever find that?

Yes. Although it really doesn't take charisma, Right? Like, charisma is. We think of charisma as, like, I don't know, George Clooney, Right? He's got charisma. But you don't need charisma in order to build that kind of energy around you. You know, it's interesting. I was at the TED summit a few years back, and this nuclear scientist from Japan comes up to me and he says, you know, I've watched your TED talk a bunch of times, but I still don't understand how to start a conversation. Right. How do you start all of this?

Wait, he just did with you.

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Were just explaining that situation with that gentleman, I related to his challenge. It takes me back years ago, but when I was in sales when I was younger and didn't feel as smart or as experienced as people that might be in a cocktail party that I would be attending and I would dread going to these cocktail parties. You'd be by yourself, you didn't know anyone, you felt like odd man out and you know, you nervously want to look at your phone and just try to act that you belong. But I wasn't actively walking up to people to ask them about themselves. Because you're right. You could walk up to any person in that room and ask them a real question about, oh, hey, were you as excited to come to the cocktail party this night as I was Kidding? Are you kidding me? I was dreading coming to you. No, but you could just be real and ask them a question and it's going to start that conversation and that momentum that.

Right.

Maybe sometimes it's not going to be the best conversation of your life. However, there will be a lot of them that people will want to share and they may be just as uncomfortable as you are standing there. Right.

And you can even, you know, at one point I was going with my neighbor to a concert and there was like this kind of weird long silence because I just moved in, like in April. We don't know each other that well. And she goes, okay, so this is an awkward silence. Let's play a game. My mom and I used to play the who did the best version game. So she'd be like, okay, with a little help from my friends. Who did it better? Joe Cocker or the Beatles? There's no winning answer. I just want to hear your thoughts. Right? And we had the best time. Right? Who did it better? Erotic City. Was it George Clinton or Prince?

Right.

There's no right answer. It's just designed to get you going and you can do the exact same thing at a cocktail party. It's like, I never know what to say at these. So let's play this Game. A lot of times I'll play because, you know, I'm a journalist. I'm a lady journalist, which makes a certain class of men feel the need to argue politics with me when I'm in parties or situations where I do not want to talk about politics. So I often say, listen, I don't want to talk about that. So let's play the comma game because we're not going to agree on climate change. But I bet I can ask you within three to five questions I can find something we have in common that we agree on.

Right.

And it's always like dogs or tacos or nachos or whatever it may be. But you will find something like that. So sometimes it's just as powerful to just acknowledge the elephant in the room, to just say, I feel awkward. I know what to say. So, hey, help me out here.

The game is brilliant. I think that's such a great crutch to be able to pull out when you're in that awkward moment. That's genius.

Yeah. And I'm actually working with software developers right now. I'm creating a bingo game, a social talk bingo game that people will be able to play on their mobile apps, which just gives you cues. Find someone who has been married twice. Find someone who owns a lizard. And that literally is your excuse. Hey, I'm playing this game. I need to find someone who owns a lizard. Do you own a lizard? Right. Sometimes that's all it takes. And you can get the conversation going.

So I use that tactic again in business. Anytime I would be attending large business.

Dinners where we'd have 20 plus people.

Sitting at a giant table and no one's interacting with anyone and you're freaking.

Out that it's going to be an.

Epic fail and you have to get people cross speaking and meeting each other. I would always stand up and say, okay, I want to play a game. Take a page out of your playbook. And I'd say, all right, if you didn't do. If you weren't a journalist, what would your career path have been? And getting people to start sharing. Well, if I wasn't going to be a journalist, I had always wanted to be an actress or, you know, whatever, but it prompts them to start giving that backstory into what happened and how they ended up here. Which allows for the crosstalk and people to start, you know, speaking to one another.

Yeah, I do that sometimes, too. And it's really similar. I'll do the. What job did you think you have? You would have when you were 20. If I'd asked you what you were going to be at age 19, what would you, what would your answer have been? You know, and then it leads them on this, this explanation of how they got from there to where they are. Right. Because if you'd asked me at age 19, I would have said an opera singer. And yeah, I studied opera. That's what my, both my bachelor's and my master's is in. And I still sing all the time. So it leads to these sort of hidden pasts and hidden areas of expertise. Actually, there's all kinds of tricks. You don't have to be subtle about it. You don't have to, you know, pretend like you're not feeling awkward. When you are, it's okay, you can own up to it. They're probably feeling awkward too.

It's so true. And the ones that are acting like they're not awkward are the ones that really are feeling the most awkward.

Awkward. And they look the most awkward.

The ones that are like, sell it.

Yes.

Yeah, completely agree. Okay, so tell, now I'm so curious. Tell me, how did you go from this opera, musical goal and practice to now become a TEDx speaker, writer, author, journalist?

How did that happen?

Well, I, every musician needs a day job. So when I got out of college, I took a part time job being the classical music host at Arizona Public Radio. And that sort of led to, they needed somebody who could report on art, the arts and culture. So I said, surely that's fine, you can train me, I'll do it. And so I started doing reporting. And within a month, within less than a month of me beginning to get training, I sold my first story to NPR and it just sort of kept going. Yeah, I never would have thought, I never would have known. In fact, the very first TEDx talk I ever gave was called Don't Find a Job, Find a Mission. And it was basically at this idea that we really cripple ourselves when what we do is try to find the right job title because you don't really know what you're good at and what you like until you try it. You find out about yourself in practice, not in theory, chatting over coffee. So you got to get out there and just try stuff out and you might be surprised by the things that you do well and that you love.

And have you been surprised along the way?

Oh, yeah, I never, I, you know, I did not ever want to have anything to do with politics when I was in college. I did not want to talk to thousands upon thousands of complete strangers. I was extremely opinionated. I was a know it all and just was like, oh, I was. I was a complete wreck. I guarantee you that if you were to talk to some of the people that I went to undergraduate school and say, celeste Headley is now a conversation expert, they would kill themselves laughing like their spleen because I was such a pain in the ass. And to a certain extent, my expertise has been an inverse ratio to how much of a pain in the ass I've been. Can I say ass? Like, as I became aware of how completely irritating I probably was as a conversationalist, it just led me to more and more and more research on why that is and how to get over it.

But that's what they say. Whatever it is that you need to work on yourself ends up being your passion, your expertise and what you focus.

On because you needed it the most, that you become an expert in it. It makes all the sense in the world to me.

Yeah, and that's exactly what happened. I mean, when I wrote this TEDx talk about conversation, I honestly did not think anyone else would be interested. I thought it would be the most boring talk ever. And that's one of the reasons I put a bunch of jokes in there, because I'm like, oh, my God, nobody is going to want to hear about conversation. Everyone hates soft skills, right? You're in an office space and they start talking about soft skills, and everyone runs for the hills. So, like, I look back at it now and I'm like, you know, If I knew 21 million people are going to be watching this talk, I probably would have put on makeup. Up.

Hindsight.

But, yeah, that was a talk that their prompt was, tell us what bothers you in the world and then tell us how to fix it. And so I did. I was like, well, okay, it bothers me that people aren't actually listening to each other.

Well, you nailed it. The talk is fantastic.

And it's tight, it's concise, it's, you know, it's right to the point, and it's.

And it's so punchy and funny that everyone needs to check it out. And also, your book, we need to Talk, that really digs into the specifics of your TED Talk, correct?

Yeah, that's right. And it has all the research in there footnoted, carefully footnoted, in case you want to go and look for yourself. But it's that book we need to Talk is split into thirds, right? So there's scientific research, which is one third. Then there's sort of professional expertise. This is what happens on the job when this is literally your job. And then the third part is just kind of like, okay, so in my personal life, this is sort of what's both gone wrong and how it looked when I tried this out. So there should be a way, way into each particular tip for everybody.

That's fantastic.

All right. You cannot get off this show. No one gets off this show without answering this question. When in your life, your career, did you struggle most with your confidence?

Yesterday? I mean, like. I mean, I don't know. I think imposter syndrome is pretty rife among women especially. And I find it to be especially true of women who are professionals, in some ways, were made to feel that way, and in some ways, it's just cultural that that's how we were raised to feel. But, oh, yeah, I spent the. Even while I was hosting national radio shows on. On. On public radio, I was like, oh, my God, any moment, someone's gonna realize that I'm faking it. I don't belong here. And they're gonna be like. It's gonna be like Invasion of the Body Snatchers. They're gonna go, ah. And scream at me, and everyone will know I'm an imposter. Yeah, always. All the time. I mean, I still, to this day struggle with my confidence, but I find that the antidote to lack of confidence is practice and really mastering your material. And that's what keeps me from being nervous.

Oh, good for you.

And I so appreciate that you share that.

So real.

Oftentimes, people will reference their childhood, you know, oh, when I was 6 years old, 10 years old, and I always.

Think, wow, am I the only one.

That was freaking out last month when I pitched for my TED Talk and got it and then thought, oh, my God, what am I going to talk about when I'm up on that?

Congratulations. But also, I wasn't. I didn't lack confidence at six. At six, I was like Wonder Woman, right? I mean, conquering the world in my yellow rain boots. I mean, no, I did not have lack of confidence at age 6. I should have, but I didn't.

Well, I appreciate that. And yes, I mean, I agree with you 100%. Everyone, anyone who's putting themselves out there to grow, to go to that next level, you're going to be questioning yourself. If you're feeling like, oh, I've got this whole life thing nailed down. You're probably sitting stagnant somewhere and not evolving at all, which, not for me, clearly, not for you. So, Celeste, please tell my listeners where can they find you?

Where can they get their book?

Your books?

You can get the books pretty. They're available pretty much anywhere. The best way to get in for more information about all the stuff that I'm doing, and it's also where I blog and all the other stuff is just at my website. It's just Celeste Headley dot com. Easy peasy.

And I will put that in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate you sharing all your expertise with us.

It's been great. Thanks for having me.

All right, hang tight.

We'll be right back.

I hope you took as many great tips from Celeste as I did and use her tips and tactics to implement change in your life for the better. Because whether it's getting rid of that phone from the table, that was like the major thing that I took, or it was from not trying to convince people of your way of thinking, but empathizing with them and watching how that changes the trajectory of a conversation. I mean, you heard them all. There's so many. So Celeste is such a smart woman. I took a lot from that conversation. Check out her TED Talk. It's really, really funny and very good. So before we get started, I need to let you know. Pluto TV is the leading free streaming television service. Watch over 100 TV channels and thousands of movies on demand, completely for free. Pluto TV never even asks you for a credit card. You don't even need to sign up to watch for free. Pluto TV is the easy and completely legal way to watch your favorite TV shows and hit movies for free. What are you waiting for? Never pay for TV again by downloading Pluto tv. You can download Pluto TV for free on all of your favorite devices, including your phone, roku, Amazon Fire TV, Apple TV, smart TVs, PlayStation, and anywhere else you stream. Check it out. Okay, so a couple of questions today. One came from a friend of mine, actually in Miami. She grabbed me the other day after we worked out, and she said, I have a question for you. She said, what would you do if the industry that you were in was having this massive kind of all star, best of the best gathering in New York City? It was a dinner, a networking opportunity. However, the tickets were really expensive and you wanted to go. And I said, well, listen, would it impact your business in a positive way if you went? She said, well, yeah, of course. I. There's no other time during the year I can meet as many of these key decision makers as I can in this one. Each reasoning. Okay, next question. If you're going to go, are you going to put yourself out there and walk up to each single person, have a reason, meaning do your research ahead of time. So you have conversation starters ready things to connect, you know, points of connection with them so that you can create some meaningful dialogue, ways that you can add value to them and try to see if you can get follow up meetings, contact info, whatever. She said, oh yeah, if I'm going, I'm making it happen. Okay, then why would you not go? And she says to me, wow, the tickets are so expensive. And I looked at her purse and I said, how much is that purse? And she started laughing. So here's the thing. Number one, we need to invest in ourselves first. And that doesn't just mean our suit, our car, you know, these material things that we're all fans of, myself included.

I love purses, let it be known.

But we also need to invest in our business. And you know, I say this all the time, going face to face with people, there is nothing as impactful. You can't ask for deals to get done over the phone, text message over zoom and the Internet. It's just not as powerful. And we're so easy to say no to when we're, when we have technology in between each other. Just like Celeste just taught us, let's stop technology, let's get away from technology occasionally and let's get into that unfamiliar zone face to face. And that's how we create really meaningful connections. So I said to her, leave me right now and go buy that ticket because I cannot wait to hear how your business explodes when you show up at this event. So find out what are the events that you need to be attending. Make the decision to invest in yourself. I'll tell you. Three years ago, I launched my personal brand. I was still back in corporate America. I made a major financial investment and the photography work that I used in the creative work, my website, the branding, I spent a fortune on it. However, in three years, I haven't had to change all that much of it. I made some evolution, but not that much because it's really beautiful work. The website looks fantastic, the photography is fantastic, the artwork's great. You know, make the investment so you can lead from the front, from where you want to be. So you have this vision of where you want to go. You need to lead with that same level of quality. And that's going to take an investment, whether it be financial resources, time, you know it's going to come from somewhere. But make the decision to do it. You are the best investment you will ever make. And that investment will pay long term dividends. And that, that is a guarantee. I'm living proof of it. Thank goodness I launched that thing three years ago. You know, little did I know I'd be getting fired a year later and how that dividend would pay off for me and that investment would pay off for me. So make sure invest in you first. It really is everything okay? In the past week, I've received so many dms about frustrated employees that are working for organizations that say they're going to get a raise, that say that they're going to get promoted, that say they're going to follow up with them on whatever their ask may be. And then crickets. And so I'm not a fan of crickets. I know you're probably not either. So there's a lot of different ways to handle crickets. And I want to share a couple that I've implemented in my life that really work. Number one, I set up reminders after I have a discussion with someone and this can be in my speaking engagements. Actually this happened with Bacardi USA recently where they had said they were in interested in having me speak at their event in September and I hadn't heard back from anyone. I had put a note on my calendar two weeks after my call with a person who said, listen, we're really busy right now, would love to have you, I need a little bit of time. And so two weeks later I followed up with her. Hey, hoping summer's going great. Just wanted to jump back on your radar. When do you have time for a conversation? And she said, oh gosh, Heather. Completely slipped my mind. Yes, let's get on phone call this week. We need to get this done. Done. However, if I had not followed up with her and just jumped back out there to remind her we were going to talk, she was putting together her final lineup and I wasn't on it that day. I am now because I reached out as a follow up. Again, we have to start thinking that it's our job and responsibility to follow up. We're not bothering someone. We are jumping back out there to say, we know you're busy, we know you have a million things going on. However, I'm ready to add value to this project, you know, create this idea for you, whatever it may be, so that responsibility is on each one of us. Another way that you can handle a boss that's ignoring you or putting you off or just giving you crickets is. I like this line. I'm confused. So I would send A supervisor, an email and say so. And so we met on such and such a date. Dealing in specifics pay is, you know, those that deal in specific seldom fail. Those that deal in generalities seldom succeed. So I put the date of our last meeting on such and such date. You and I had a conversation about my race. Let's use that as an example. We both agreed I had above and beyond exceeded expectations. I had brought in all of the examples of my work. You had agreed that this was unbelievable and you're really thrilled. You also agreed that I warranted a raise. However, you said you needed to figure out what that raise exactly was going to look like and you'd be back with me. Here we are, two, three weeks later and I haven't heard back from you. Next line. I'm confused. How can we move forward and get this done so we both can feel good about our conversation? Follow up and job that I'm doing need your help in working this out. Can you meet today or is tomorrow better? That's the kind of follow up that I would provide. You're not trying to create an argument with someone. You're showing that you agreed upon a number of different things and then you're basically saying, I'm confused. Where's the breakdown? That line, I'm confused is really powerful because now that other person needs to answer you to say, okay, you're not confused. I haven't had time. I didn't follow up. That's my fault, you know, whatever it is. So it's a really good entry point for you to revisit what that issue is without creating an argument, because there's no argument needed. There is no emotion in business. And, you know, we're not taking it personally. So I hope that helps. I hope that helps. All the dms that I've gotten about being frustrated at work, but really that follow up is on you. That follow up is a difference between getting promoted, getting the raise, or getting what you want. And maybe what you find out is they weren't going to give you a raise and this is going to help you come to that realization. Then you know what? Now we know. And the next step is how do we get ourselves out of that organization and into another one, another opportunity where we will get paid what we're worth. Because no one's going to pay you what you're worth if you don't realize it and you don't own it and you don't go after it. So here's to you going after it this week and every week. And if you haven't caught my Jesse Itzler interview yet, please go back and check it out again. I'm going to be live on stage with him September 3rd in Boston for Hyper Growth. Would love to see you there, but definitely check out the episode. It's one of my best yet. He drops so much knowledge, so much energy, and I know you're going to love it. Hope you love today's episode and I can't wait to see you next week. I'll be coming to you live from behind the scenes at Hyper Growth on my Instagram. I'm going to keep you updated left and right. I've got a huge meeting that morning. I'm so excited, excited for next week. It's gonna be big Boston. I'm coming for you. If you haven't left me a reviewer rating yet, please do and DM me the screenshot and I'll buy you my $299 video course as a big thank you. All right, Hang in there this week. I hope it's a great one and keep creating your confidence. I'm right there with you.