#193: UNLEASH Your Creativity by Building Stronger Connections With Dr. Kynan Robinson Founder & CEO of EnRusk

What's interesting about technology? Nothing really, except it's changing the way we connect, right? It is changing the way we as humans connect. It's changing the possibilities we can connect. It's changing the amount of connectivity you can have and also the types of connectivity you can have, which I found really interesting. And so then I put all my energy into saying that's the interesting thing. Because when we connect, that's when we learn, that's when we create and that's when we change through connection. Right?

I'm on this journey with me each week. When you join me, you're going to chase down our goals overcome and, and set you up for a better tomorrow. Fasten your seatbelt.

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Hi, and welcome back. I'm so excited for you to meet our guest today. Dr. Kynan Robinson is the founder of the renowned NRUS consultancy with offices in the US and Australia and clients on every continent. Early in his educational career, Kynan won Educational Leader of the Year in Australia as well as winning the School Specialization Grant for transforming how schools interact with technology and a bunch of other things. Okay, hang on. He's a keynote speaker. He is doing work that is literally changing school systems everywhere. He's been featured in the Sydney Morning Herald, ABC Radio, national, the AIDS newspaper, Inspire Magazine, Australia in the sun, and everywhere and anywhere. He's award winning.

Cross.

Okay. It's killing you. I mean, this bio is extensive. Doctor, thank you so much for being here.

Nice. You missed out the fact that I'm a musician. That's the most interesting part of it.

Oh, that. Especially around creativity. Because whenever I think about music, I definitely think about creativity is that when you are your most creative is when you're writing or working on music.

When I'm the most creative is when I'm connected to other human beings. Like, that's a really great leading question what you just asked there. And it actually does tie in really nicely with the music stuff because the way we see creativity, my PhD actually focused on what is creativity and essentially I redefined it away from being something that individuals do. Like creativity is not. It's not a trait, it's not something I can teach you. I'm not necessarily more creative than you or you more creative than me. So it's not like that. What creativity is a connected process. It's a social process. And so it's deeply tied to connectivity of human beings really is really what it's about. So how that ties into music is like, if you think about music, am I most creative when I make music. I'm most creative when I'm making music as a collective experience rather than just sitting in my bedroom making music. Does that make sense?

Yeah. That's interesting to me as an author. Right. Because I'm always trying to find ways when you're writing, to become more creative, to tap into that flow that we're looking for. But I find that's when I'm alone somewhere, sitting on a beach at a beautiful place, that ideas kind of come more readily to me. What does that mean?

Yeah, and I guess that's not talking about being alone. I talk about essentially maybe alone, being alone together. Even when you're alone, you're super connected. So when you're writing, it's not like these are just your original thoughts all coming through. It's like the hyper connectivity of all of your network. Like, when you're alone, you're allowing all that hyper connectivity to find its place. But it's the hyper connectivity which has actually caused the creativity. If that makes sense.

That does make sense to me. And when you're talking about this idea of connection, it's so timely right now with COVID and you and I, as we were just talking before as keynote speakers, and we're alone on. On Zoom, and you're talking about the work that you're doing, this transformational work in organizations, and how do you build trust through a computer? How much more challenging has your work become due to Covid?

Super challenging. Like, super challenging. But it also really put, like, to test a lot of the stuff that I talk about, because when I was working within the school system as a school leader, relating back to technology, I was always like, what's interesting about technology? Nothing really, except it's changing the way we connect, right? It is changing the way we as humans connect. It's changing the possibilities connect. It's changing the amount of connectivity you can have and also the types of connectivity you can have, which I found really interesting. And so then I put all my energy into saying, that's the interesting thing. Because when we connect, that's when we learn, that's when we create and that's when we change through connection. Right. All of our work previously, like that we do with schools or we do with organizations, it is about, like, helping them to grasp that concept. And so it requires a lot of trust, like. Like, as, you know, super amount of trust like that. You're teaching them to trust each other, to work better as a team. But you're also. They need to trust you to Go through this process, which can be quite emotional. And so when it all stopped and suddenly it's like, let's just do this via Zoom. That really put a lot of the stuff that I had been putting out publicly to test. It's like, can you do this just by this, this method? I'm not saying there is like online and offline connection, because I think it's all tied in together. It is just connection. But if you're just doing things purely through a technology like Zoom. My team and I worked very, very hard at learning how to do this. Like, and we work with clients all over the world. Like, so we just recently did a workshop with 190 government employees back in Australia. And the task was four hour workshop on Zoom, 190 of them. We're rebranding and we're relaunching this government department. And we'd really like them to just come together and unite. It was like, oh my God, here we go. And so we've been doing this for two years now. And so there's ways of doing it, like through the technology, like how you utilize the technology. But one of the ways that we do it is, and I notice you do this a lot too, is through being as vulnerable as we can with them. So straight up front, having a laugh at ourselves, saying, let's not let the technology get in the way. And so even making mistakes and then pointing out the mistakes. Did you see how I just made that mistake? You know, and being able to, just, just being able to show them that you're a human being and you're part of the team. So, like, and I say this to all my facilitators, you're not there to just guide them through a process or you're not there to show them an answer. You're there to actually be part of the team with them. So in that you have to be as vulnerable as you're expecting them to be with you on that Zoom meeting. And so when you do that, all of a sudden you create this environment. You can't create it through Zoom. You create this environment where we all just suddenly just let it all go and we just trust each other and we just have. We actually can have a laugh about it and find it changes stuff.

So, you know, it's interesting. An incredibly successful company, Spanx, you know, founded by Sarah Blakely. She shared when I interviewed her, one of her reasons why she feels the company became so successful was they had these Friday oops meetings where she would lead the meeting and talk about the Mistakes she made, the failure she had that week and kind of laugh at it and share with everyone, and then they go around the table and every senior leader on the team would share where they fell, what ball they dropped. And that created this culture of constantly being open to innovate and try different things. And that sounds really similar to what you're talking about.

Super similar. And I think, like, it's something that you have to model, and so it's like something that you have to take on yourself and learn how to do it. So we talk about empathy a lot. Like empathy is flowing everywhere in the world at the moment, being empathy. I talk about the various phases of empathy. Empathy for self. Right. To understand what is it in me that is stopping me from actually hearing you, Heather? Like, what is it that's stopping me from listening to you right now? That's challeng. Being able to identify that, being able to name some of those parts and be able to go, all right, it's doing it for this and that reason that then allows me to have empathy for you. Right. Which then actually allows you to have empathy. Not allows is the wrong word, but enables you to have empathy for self and empathy for me, which then creates this space between us. As we're looking at each other right now, I can kind of feel it. The space between is the space of emergence. That's where the creativity actually happens. But to do that. So that empathy piece, that's all about vulnerability. So the example you just gave is a really great one. And it sounds to me like they do it in. In a really authentic way. Not like a trite kind of way, but actually going, you know, like, I do it with my team all the time, where we model it for each other and we practice it on each other. Like, we practice it like the ability to fail and fail fast is what we're really talking about. And so when we're working with clients, it is a huge jump, especially for schools. Schools, which is about perfection. Perfection. Perfection. Right. It's like, what about if we created a school where we could fail? And why would we fail? We failed fast to learn fast. And that's fantastic.

I love that idea.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that takes. That's a mindset shift, right? That is. It's easy for us to say, but there's so many systems in place, especially in education that work, they actually oppose that. And so we need to model it. When we're. We're going in as consultants, we need to model it to them for them to actually see it. And go ah. And then for them to have an experience of it. Then for them to then go I now know what that feels like. We can do this when you want.

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Remember and are you seeing that actually Happen in schools?

Absolutely. All the time. Yeah. And I mean, especially coming out of this Covid period, like, a lot of schools came to us to ask for help. Just unpack what happened.

Right?

Because what happened in Covid, our education system already sets you up for isolation, right? It's about individual, individual, individual, and it's running you through a system. System, Right. It's already set up for, like, competition and isolation. Covid hits and it just isolates even further. Right. So suddenly schools were saying to us, hey, you know that work that you were doing with us previously, where we realized we were really disconnected and isolated, like, even though they thought they might have had a good community, they actually weren't. It's just exacerbated now. Can you help? And so the work that we do with them, with the schools, with this program called Listen, Learn, Leap that we're rolling everywhere is. It's essentially. It's a program where we get them all together. So parents, teachers, students, administration, who cares? We put them all in together. We teach them how to listen to each other. Right? Listen. And through the listening process, they actually start hearing, oh, you had that experience. So they stop assuming that we've all had the same experience through the listening process. What they're doing there is they're starting to identify, like, problems that have emerged. And when we find problems, it's great because, like, now we can innovate, because now we can actually tackle that problem. They're also finding innovation that did happen in small pockets, but had just not come to the surface because they're so disconnected. When that happens, what you're allowing them to do is essentially reconnect in a conscious way where they are choosing the connected culture that they want to have going forward, rather than just sort of living out some supposed connected culture that has this going previously.

What are some of the tactics that you share with your groups and your workshops on how to be a better listener to actually hear?

What are the tactics? That is a great question. I think, about tactics in this way. Like, I also talk about empathy for self, empathy for other, and empathy for process. Right. So there's a variety of tools and processes that we use that we've come up with ourselves. There's also some other great ones, like design, thinking, and, like, you know, other. There's other processes that are really about helping you connect, essentially. And so that's that listening piece. A great tool is designed to do the work for you. So there's a couple of tools that we use just. Just to help them learn how to Listen, like, how to listen properly. And then I say, once you've learned the tool, then you can break it. But, like, just let the tool do the work for you. So the first tool is essentially we get them to interview each other. Now that sounds like, oh, yeah, we all know how to interview. But like, interviewing beyond buzz of your head. Like, you and me, like, I could feel right now that you and me are right deep into a connected. Because you're great at it, right? But that's a particular skill where. How do I interview? Where empathy. For me, the interviewer, all I'm thinking about is like, oh, my, who's this person? What's the question? How do you stop that? And then how do I create a space for. If I'm asking, like, what you've done right now, where I feel very, very comfortable answering your questions as honestly as possible because you've created that space, like interviewing. We teach them how to interview each other. That's a tool that we use to help them learn how to listen rather than learn how to ask questions.

Before we actually started recording today, for a few minutes, you and I were just bantering back and forth, sharing some stories and sharing some vulnerability stories, which was not intentional. However, now with what you're teaching me, I understand that that helps us create a better connection, which then gives us more opportunity for a better discussion, you know, more space. Like you're saying, more creativity.

Correct?

Absolutely correct. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, that's a tactic. Like, well done for identifying that. Because that's a tactic we did together before the interview started where we told some stories and we basically. Self deprecation. I love self deprecation. I'm Australian. So, like, we love self deprecating. But as a tactic, it's a great form of humor which disarms both yourself and the other. And it places you in this place of, like, what does it matter? Let's just get on with it. Like, that kind of attitude. And I think you and I both, we're both keynoters and we're both talking about how difficult it is to do this zoom keynoting thing. And you were the one who said it. It's like you call yourself out and go, okay, I'm trying to be funny and I can't see if anyone's laughing.

I think that's hilarious. Self deprecation is a funny thing, right? Because I just felt a trigger when you said self deprecation. For me, okay. When I was in my early 20s and I was in the business world in Corporate America. I leverage self deprecation all the time. Blonde joke, blonde moment. Haha. I'm being the ditzy blonde. It hurt me in business profoundly. And I remember someone pulling me aside and saying, hey, start speaking about yourself the way that you want others to speak about you. So for a long time I moved away from that self deprecating humor. So where is that right? Space for self deprecating humor and not hurting yourself.

Yeah, that's a really, really fantastic question. And you know what, Heather? As I was saying that word self deprecation, I actually was, in my mind, I was like, do you use this word? Because I think and like, so I'm really interested that you said it triggered you. Let's just change the language around because the language is not right. Okay, so that's. And then that's also like we're now talking culture because I can say self deprecation in Australia and it means something completely different. Right, so you're right. But it's not about deprecation and it's not about like ah, the ditzy blonde jokes. Because that's like not empathy for self. That's more like placing yourself in a culture that you, you are not actually, you're doing what the culture is predetermining you to do. Oh, I better do the blonde jokes because that's what the culture tells you to do. Empathy for self and then empathy for space and empathy for other and all that sort of stuff is like actually self deprecation. When I can tell you something about myself where like, huh, yeah, that's really interesting. I used the wrong words then, didn't I? And it triggered you. That's what I'm talking about in terms of like self deprecation. But then I can turn that into a bit of a joke as well. And it's not like I'm not playing a game on you, I'm actually just trying to show you more of myself. That's what I'm talking about. So yeah, you're right. The word self deprecation is probably.

It's interesting just because like you said though, that's a great point that I didn't think of, especially now because we're dealing with people in countries we never have worked with before. Right. I definitely have spent the majority of my life in the US and dealing with people in the US and I'm always assuming that the same word means that same thing. And culturally our world is so different now on zoom.

And I think that's one of the exciting things and one of the also like, intimidating things in terms of, in terms of language. I've done a lot of work in the field of research in terms of linguistics, like language being super important and language being something that ties you to something, but it does not necessarily like, articulate what you're trying to say. The language I'm most interested in other words that have not been invented yet. So like, this can tie into like our understanding of ourselves. So, and I think what's really interesting in the culture that we live in is this move into fluidity that seems to be happening, you know, like, in terms of, like, let's get the pronouns right, us, he, her, she, like, all this kind of stuff is very interesting. Evolution of language which is showing possibility of identity, not predictability, if that makes sense. So like, and that's what I'm also interested in in regards to education. How about we create spaces? Imagine if we created a school that could be beyond a school. Okay, so there's, there's an example of language where you use the word school twice, but I threw in the word beyond and suddenly you're creating possibility. How might we create spaces of learning that allow for possibility, not predictability suddenly in that language? This kind of language is like poetic language and it's the language that happens right on the fringe. It's tying somewhere to like the past, but it's also allowing the future to happen. And when you're moving across cultures, it's particularly challenging and interesting to do. But it's something I'm really fascinated in as well. How do you articulate, articulate this using words?

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Yeah, I really appreciate that you brought my awareness now too, because I'm going to start being mindful of that when I'm delivering a keynote. Because I know there's people in multiple countries that I can't see. I don't know what they look like. So I can't just assume everyone understands certain words or certain expressions the same way. That that's very enlightening. So thank you for that teaching. So tell me around. I know that we were talking a little bit about confidence and how confidence and creativity tie together. What can you share with us around that topic?

That's a really interesting one too. In terms of. That goes back to like a lot of the challenges that we find in our society, like especially the societies that we live in here in America and around the Western world, which are tied to like a reductionist kind of understanding. So reductionism being like drilling down, always down to back into the self, back to the individual, back to the. Back to me, me. And it's always me comparing myself with everybody else. And that's how we get understanding of ourselves. And that just destroys us and creates anxiety and creates stress. Right? Go back to what I was talking about before. In terms of what is creativity? It's a collective experience, right? And so when it's a collective experience, when it comes to flows, right? This collective experience flow. So not flow of individual, but the collective flow, right? So that's part of the role of the work that we do is creating those kind of spaces, creating those kind of spaces in the workshops or how might we. Like when you reduce hierarchy essentially, and there's techniques and processes and ways we do it to actually get everyone to feel like they are equally as important in that team as everyone else. And that team might contain the CEO or the head of the school, and it also might contain a child of the age of six who's starting school for the first day or your first day at work or whatever, it doesn't matter. How do you create an environment where there is no hierarchy and no hierarchy environment is an environment which is hyper, super connected, where everybody finds their place. And so then the confidence that you're getting is flowing from the collective or it's flowing from the team. It's not flowing back to me going, oh, I better, I need to say something to be important here or I haven't said anything for like the last 30 minutes. I think they'll think I'm stupid or whatever it is. It's just, it's not in that place. It's a challenging thing to do. But when you do get to that place, that collective flow is where creativity and emergence just burst all over the place.

You know, for me, what I just heard was, I heard you describing a startup mentality versus a large corporation 50 years in existence in corporate America. Complete flip.

Well, corporate America like for the last however many years has been based on the sort of military system which is like, which is like a totally hierarchical system. Right? But like this mentality is changing. And so you start talking about like an agile culture. Right, an agile culture. And so the word agile is sweeping through corporate America because agile is, it draws from the same theoretical basis of what I'm talking about, which is kind of complexity versus reductionism. And Agile is relatively easy. Well, it's not easy, but it's easier to do in startups. Right? But corporate is now identifying it and going, oh, what's happening here? And what Agile is actually doing is it's flowing, this creativity flowing. It's emerging all over the place. And so a lot of corporate are trying to move to an agile culture, but it is super, super difficult. And it's not super difficult because of the size, it's super difficult because of the mindset that they have originally formed themselves in, which is a mindset of reductionism. And that is super challenging to change. It's possible, but like that's what we're trying to change systemically around the world. When we're working with, when we work with governments on, in education, that's what we're trying to change. How do you systemically change hierarchical cultures to one that embrace complexity and embrace non hierarchy?

Have you ever run into an impasse? Have you ever worked with a company, an academic institution, whoever, where you got to place? You said you're just not willing to change. This isn't going to work.

You want me to be super vulnerable, don't you? Absolutely, I have. I love that question. That's a super interesting question because I don't believe that it'll ever get. This is just not going to work. But I have hit situations where the trust fell off, and it's very easy to just revert back to what you know. Let's just go back to what we know because, like, this can be very vulnerable stuff to go through, especially for large organizations. Like, and I've watched other people trying to, like, make cultural change at large organizational scale, and it's very easy for us to just go, actually, you know what? I just want to be the boss and tell everyone what to do. I just want to do that, like, because I know. I know how to do that.

I know how to do that, and.

I know how to exist in that environment, and I know that identity. That's really what this is about. And so that's. That sometimes that's the impasse where they. When you've got them to a position and it becomes. It becomes a little overwhelming. Because when you're doing this type of work, Heather, I also talk about the stages, the emotional stages that you go through, right? Like, and, and we're very upfront with all clients and saying, you will feel overwhelmed. You'll feel. You'll feel states of ambiguity. You'll feel like, just what's going on here? Like, and, and that's completely okay. And when you get to that, I'm going to guide you through that. And I'm going to. Even when I tell them that, they're going to feel that when they get to that point, they kind of quite often can't see it. And it's my role there to go, you're feeling it right now. Are you feeling that right now? Just get them to identify that and then let them know it's okay. It's okay. And that's the process of, like, what I would call immersion or discovery or when it's all just coming, right? And they go, oh, my goodness, this is too overwhelming. And I say, let's embrace this complexity and let. Let's get more of it coming. Let's get more of it coming. But then it is also our role to then at some point help them to synthesize this down. Because you can't just let this go out forever because it'll blow people's minds. So then you synthesize it down, and when you get to the point of synthesis where they might go, that's the problem we're going to work on, right? Which is all of this data that you've Generated, or they've generated all this data you've helped them generate once you help them and taught them how to synthesize it for themselves. And they go, oh, that's what we're gonna do. And then suddenly the ideas come, and then the prototyping comes, and then the flow comes. You know, that point of synthesis is quite often I've had like been working with senior board members of large corporations, whatever, and people will be in tears. Quite often. They hit tears and they go, conan, I now see the world completely differently. And that's the point of the work we do, because it's a mindset shift.

So it's. And I don't know that I'm gonna articulate this correctly, but this is what came to mind for me. It's not even so trusting the people on the team or trusting yourself, but it's almost like trusting that there's something bigger, trusting the universe that you're willing to step into that unknown and start taking this on.

Yeah, it's like, don't believe that what you see here is all that there is. Like, there's so much that we can't see because this is about theory in terms of if you look at the theory that we exist within, which is like a reductionist theory, it actually controls what makes it possible for you to see, and I'm not talking physically see, the possibilities. You cannot see the possibilities because you can only see what you can see. Like, so our role. Our role is to open up possibility, but then also open up process for them to see beyond. And that's the trust stuff. It's like. And when they get to that point and then they can suddenly see things that they could not previously see, be that new product, be that new business models, be that new ways of learning, be that new. Whatever it is, it doesn't matter. Right. When they can see that, what they're really seeing, just talk them a different way of connecting with humanity that allows them to go, oh, this all exists. And I never knew about it. That's the exciting stuff.

Wow, that is. It's huge. So people are listening right now. They own companies are part of companies. What does it look like to engage you and your team? How does that work?

We do have set products and processes. Like we work with companies on strategy or developing agile approaches to strategy, or agile approaches to working or understanding your values, understanding who you are, you know, these. These kind of things. But essentially what normally happens is we'll get approached and quite often, because they're not really sure why they're approaching us too. Like they just have this feeling like, which is really interesting too. And then, and then it's a matter of like just spending a lot of time with them and talking through what are you like understanding the objectives, what are they trying to achieve or designing like processes to help them, which is, that's one of the most enjoyable parts of our work but also one of the most challenging parts of the work in terms of not assuming that like, hey, I just rolled this process with these guys down the road, it'll work with you as well, you know, like, no, because that's also. We need to model what we're talking about, which is we need to connect with the organizations that we connect, that we are working with. Because that's, it's really high touch. And that's also the part that I love because you get to connect with these people, you get to connect with these organisations, with these schools and you get to go on this journey with them where like, you know, I've got so many like organizations and schools where they go kind of, you just see like what just happened. Like, you know, you've been on like a 12 month or two year journey and they are mind blown at what's going on in their organization because they've gone through this journey with you and you know, so many times they'll call you up and I said like, you know, it's just great, like it's really enjoyable work really.

You can tell, you can tell that you love it so much and it's so great to see. How long does this process take before you start seeing some big transformations?

It really varies like, it really varies in terms of like what they're, what they're trying to achieve, what people are trying to achieve. With the stuff that I was talking to you about in regards to schools, like helping them through this Covid period, like the process and product that we developed for that. You can see transformation after like a one, one day. Like you can actually see it like, or you can see, you can start seeing transformation after one hour. Because we've so, so honed what we do. But quite oftentimes they'll go, oh, right now we want more of this, now we've got more of that. And so what type of transformation? Like you're talking about full organizational transformation. That also depends on the size, it depends on how ingrained they are, how passionate they are, all of that sort of stuff. It changes. But you know, we do work that goes from one day with organizations to I've been We've been working with some clients for, like, three and a half years.

Wow. I mean, the work that you're doing is amazing. It's making the world a better place. And I love that you're bringing people together. How can Everybody find you, Dr. Kynan?

The website's www.enrusk.com.e n r u s k dot com. You can also Google my name. Kynan Robinson. K Y N A N. I think my parents made this name up. So there's only like two of us, me and some other. There's one other Kynan Robinson in the world.

Well, I highly encourage everybody to check out. Check out Dr. Kynan's website, see if this is a fit for you, because the world needs more connectivity. The world needs more creativity. And thank you for the work that you're doing, Dr. Kynan. I appreciate you being here.

Thank you, Heather.

Okay, until next week. Keep creating your confidence. You know we will be. I decided change that dynamic. I couldn't be more excited for what you're going to hear. Start learning and growing. Inevitably something will happen. No one succeeds alone.

You don't stop and look around once in a while. You could miss it.

Come on this journey with me.