#23: From Coach To Host with Jordan Harbinger

Each week when you join me here, we are going to chase down our goals, overcome adversity, and set you up for a better tomorrow. Come on this journey with me. Hi, and welcome back to Creating Confidence. I'm so grateful that you're here with me yet again this week. I really appreciate your support and appreciate you hanging with me throughout all of the madness. Okay, so in the last week, something pretty cool happened for me. As you know, I've got my TED Talk coming up. It's October 26th. I've never done a TED Talk. I've worked so hard to get this TED Talk. I have applied for hundreds of TED Talks and been told no, no, no. And met a wonderful woman, Cindy, who really taught me the right way to approach TED Talks and how to figure out what the big idea is and. And how to put it under the umbrella of the theme that the TED Talk that you're going to be doing falls under and really not make it about being a speaker. Basically, I was taking the complete wrong approach, and she helped me refine it. And my TED Talk is actually. I'm allowed to say the title now. It's the Me Too Movement. Misstep or Mistake, which is really bold. And I'm really excited to share this idea because I never hear it talked about. However, it's a big issue that needs to be addressed, and it's a big idea. So October 26th, it's going down now. What was kind of cool is that I've known that I got this TED Talk back at the end of June, and while I think about it all the time and run through ideas in my mind, and even the past two months, every week when I speak at an event, I've tried out some different material to test the audience and see how they respond to little bits and pieces and ideas that I have, which has been great. It's a great opportunity for me to see the response that I get in real time. But this week made it very real because I had to drive to Boca Raton, which is an hour and a half north from where I live, and it was our walkthrough day. So I got to fau, which is where the event is being held, and tickets are for sale, by the way, if you want to come. I'd love to see you there. At my first TED talk, October 26th. I can't wait to. So I went to FAU in Boca, and I felt great as soon as I pulled into the school. I've spoken at a lot of universities over the past decade. So I felt really comfortable pulling in, which was good, but it makes a lot of sense. Anytime you're doing something new, something big, if you can get the opportunity to walk through, to meet the people, to make yourself feel familiar and be able to envision yourself there, it's a really powerful way to set yourself up for success, at least for me. So I was forced for the hour and a half on my way out there to say, I need to write this TED Talk, you know, And I haven't been stressing about it. I've just been thinking about how great it's going to go. And like I said, testing some of the material on the car ride in that hour and a half out there, I started walking through my mind what I would say, what the intro of my talk would be, because the intro is so critical. And in order to capture that audience and ensure that your TED Talk goes viral, you want to have a big idea, a big message, and a way to pull people in so that they're gonna click and listen and watch that video. So I started rehearsing in the car and then rehearsing, went into giving my TED Talk and using my car clock as my 10 minute timer. So I did that on the way out there. I felt really good. I took notes as soon as I stopped the car and, and then I went in, I found some students and they let me into the actual venue where the TED Talk will occur. And they walked me around. I met the guy that's in charge of the production, he showed me backstage, he allowed me to take the stage. And I just felt I actually, I posted about this on my Instagram. I just felt really good. I felt at home there. The stage was so similar to what I thought it would be like. I felt really comfortable and great and it definitely made me feel powerful and in the right place. So I'm so glad I did the walkthrough. And as soon as I left, I practiced that TED Talk in my mind the entire ride home. And then when I got home, I typed up my TED Talk. And it's funny because I did have faith that at the right time, those words were gonna come to me and they're gonna be the right words. And I believe that's exactly what happened. By not stressing out, not obsessing about it. I definitely thought about it every day. I definitely brainstormed, I took notes all the time. But I didn't put this pressure on myself that I had to. You know, a lot of people told me, write your TED Talk day one. You know, back in June and then practice hundreds of times every week and memorize everything. And that might work for them. We'll see how mine works for me. But I just sense that, you know, I always trust myself over everything else. And to me, I just sensed the words were gonna come to me at the right time. And for me, taking that stage, driving out to the venue, walking on that campus and envisioning that day occurring, that felt like the moment it just. It really came to me. I love what I wrote. I'm really excited about it. I'm sure I might have some iterations of it, you know, make a couple small changes, but I don't think much. I really like it. So now I've just gotta make sure I nail the 10 minute piece, which is a whole other challenge. And we'll work on that next. But. All right, so that's where I am on the TED Talk, which is pretty cool and exciting and would love your support on this. It will mean the world to me. Oh, my gosh. This is a game changing potential, game changing moment. Okay, so in other news this week, I was asked to be. This is a first time ever, I was asked to be a judge for Miss usa, which is super interesting. I was never a pageant girl. I never did a pageant. And one of my really good friends, Iman, is a pageant person. And so I've been acclimated to this world in the past two years via her and her friends. And they're all great, smart women who I love. So I definitely feel good about pageants, but I don't have any experience. And I was recently on a podcast with my friend Tim, and at the end of the podcast, he said, you know, you'd make a great judge. The element of confidence and success really resonates well and aligns with Miss usa, so that's how I ended up being a judge for Miss Alabama USA and Miss Alabama Teen USA this past weekend. So Friday morning I flew to Alabama and I was thinking, well, actually I flew to Atlanta and had to drive an hour and a half to Alabama. And I was thinking a lot about the concept of judging, right? Because if you. To me being a Judge For Ms. USA, there were some conflicting feelings initially, and I want to share what those were because I first started thinking, you know, I don't know, this is a good idea. I'm judging women based on how they look. What is that all about? And just the whole idea of judging seems so wrong until I really started thinking my entire time in corporate America for two decades I was in leadership in management, you know, an executive, a chief revenue officer. And a big part of my job was judging. Now, we don't call it judging, but let's shoot ourselves straight. When you are managing and leading a team of people, you're constantly giving feedback. You're constantly giving praise and. Or feedback on how to improve. You are evaluating people's performance daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, and annually. You are constantly being evaluated by the stock price of this. Of the company that you're leading. You know, so there's all these different evaluations that occur, performance evaluations, metrics within industries, comparing yourself to your peers and your competitors. And I started thinking, you know, everything in business is about judging. So why am I questioning myself with the idea of judging Ms. USA? And that really helped me to see that, you know, people signed up for this the same way I signed up to be in corporate America. These women signed up for this pageant. And it really is no different than business. And that really helped me to gain a better perspective about what I was doing. I was doing a job that people were really excited for me to come in for because they had practiced and worked for years in their lives, a lot of them, in order to get that seat at the table and to be judged. So anyhow, so I ended up feeling really good about that. By the time I got off the plane, it was an hour and a half from Atlanta to Alabama and a very small college town, Auburn, Alabama. And I had no idea what to expect. So we went in for our first meeting when I arrived and we were given the production company's called RPM Productions. And these people are very seasoned, and they gave us instructions. There was a lot. There was four new judges, and one had judged many Miss USA pageants. So they were a little nervous with new judges and. And they gave us really clear expectations, direction, walked us through what our responsibilities are. And I'll tell you, it's almost like being sequestered with a group of, you know, of four people that you're going to be with for the next few days. You have a big responsibility to make an excellent choice. And a lot of people have worked years to create that environment, that pageant and that moment. And now here we are walking in with holding the pen that's gonna determine who wins. So it was. It was definitely a cool experience. I'm so glad I went. I met so many interesting people. I loved all of the judges I worked with. They were so interesting, all from different backgrounds. We got along fantastic. The production company people were amazing, and it was Just this really positive experience. And I hadn't anticipated it being that great, but it really, it was, it, was it intense. You definitely don't have a minute of downtime, but it was definitely interesting. So I met great people. I'm so glad that I went. And I definitely live now under this different approach that, you know, if I'm asked to do something, yeah, I had to leave for the weekend and give up time with my son and give up. I didn't get to work out for three days, which drives me cuckoo. But, you know, I learned something new. I learned things about myself. I learned things about some. Something that I maybe had judged from afar. Maybe I used to think pageants were funny or ridiculous or whatever stereotype I had possibly put on them. And I came to find out people like different things, but at the end of the day, whether you're in corporate America, whether you've got goals in fitness or maybe you have goals in the world of pageants, it really isn't all that different. It's about dedication, hard work, sacrifices, creating goals, hitting deadlines, and then when the spotlight's on, showing up and turning on who you are. So it was so cool. So anyway, so the first day we got the expectations, we had our initial meeting. I had a book with all of these women and so much information into who they are, their backgrounds, what they're currently doing, and wow, a lot of interesting people, people who had excelled so, so much in school and academics, in sports, you know, presidents of their class, presidents of their sororities, leadership roles. Charity was big. Every single woman there was highly committed to charity. Some started their own charities. I mean, really mind blowing to me of what I thought I was going to walk into versus what I saw. And the biggest thing was I saw all these women, for the most part, supporting one another, not being catty and backstabbing, but, but really rallying around and helping one another, which was so cool. So the first day we did the expectations meeting and kind of got trained on our roles, our responsibilities, our rules. You know, we couldn't speak outside of the event with any contestants. We, you know, you have, you can't talk to the other judges about your thoughts necessarily. You know, it's just, it's very serious and so, but it still was very fun. So we all went out for dinner, we had a great time, got to know each other. Of course. I brought my idea to the table of if you weren't doing whatever it is you do, what would you do for a living? And we played that game and then what is that one thing no one knows about you? And sharing it, because those are great icebreakers in group settings. And we all got to know each other fast and become fast friends and we had a great time. Then we went to judging and that was really bizarre for me. We're sitting there in front of a stage and. And women were out there in bathing suits, fitness attire, as well as evening gowns. And that was my first real experience being a judge. So I wrote down, you know, my notes, I wrote down critiquing, I guess, who I thought had done the best job or had the best stage presence or represented the concept of Miss Alabama the best. And then the next day, first thing in the morning, 8am, we did interviews. And this was beyond impactful because you see people initially from a stage and I kind of forgot about this. But certain people have charisma on a stage. Certain people have a stage presence. We all hear that. It's a real thing. Okay, Because. And it was so cool for me to be the audience, be the judge in this instance. I never really thought how impactful it was. Well, you become clear on it when you're doing the interviews one on one the next day. So for a few hours we sat for just a few minutes with each woman. They would go from judge to judge and you would have your notes from the night before. And seeing how some of these women shined on that stage and looked huge to me. They looked so tall and powerful. And then some of them, when I would meet them one on one, did not seem confident, did not seem strong. They maybe their posture was off, maybe they were breaking out in hives. Wow. It was so black and white how some of these women were on a stage when they had distance from people versus when they were one on one. And conversely, some of the people I did not score well on stage were extremely confident, poised, conversationalist. They interacted so well on that one on one interview. So this is where it became a little confusing and your mind starts playing tricks on you. You begin to see people. Well, at least I am like this. When I connect with someone one on one, I start to see them through rose colored glasses. So I might not notice that the night before I didn't think she was, you know, the most physically attractive one. Well, now I start thinking she is because I loved her personality and her strength and her individuality and how she rocks that. Now there was actually one woman who had been a competitor for many years. She was a finalist a year prior to she tripped and fell in the opening act. And this was so. It was a great experience for me to see. So during the interview, of course, I had remembered. It occurred I wasn't counting the girl out as a result of it, but I remembered and I saw her approach me during the interview process. And the first thing she did was she started apologizing for falling. And, you know, she made. You only have a few minutes with the judge. She made the whole interaction with me about her falling. And here's what I want to say about that. This is just like me getting fired, right? So I could have made every interaction I had after I got fired about, oh, I'm so embarrassed I was fired. And, you know, just don't think I'm a bad person, because I'm really not a bad person. And, you know, at the end of the day, I'm not going to, you know, I'm going to do better or whatever, what, you know, but making it a real negative instead. What I've tried to do or what I believe I've done is that, yes, I acknowledge that I was fired. I either make a joke about it, I think I'm doing all right now, or I make it about a positive. Wow. That was a pivotal moment in my life that allowed me to really take off. Here's how I did it. But I don't make a. I don't apologize for that. And this woman was apologizing and really making everything about the fall. So this is such a great life example that instead, what she could have done, she could have put that fall to work for her, and she could have approached and said, hi, you'll never forget this phase. I'm the cat that went down, but I'm also the cat that got right back up. And I wanna tell you how I did that. And make it into this thing about being confident and strong and overcoming adversity, because then people will rally around you and be cheering for you. Or you can make it here, humor and make it about, you know, how it's so funny that you fell and that you've fallen. Other times, however, you've learned about yourself, that, you know, you're someone who can poke fun at yourself or whatever, but make it either funny, turn it into a positive showcase how you overcome adversity and then move on from it. Right? Don't live in that negative event. So that was something that was very apparent to me. And also just so. It's so surprising. All of these women are ridiculously gorgeous. They're all young, you know, in their early 20s. The teens obviously are in their teens. But to see how many of these women struggle with confidence is just, it's never, I will never not be shocked to know this, that nearly every single person you ever meet, regardless how beautiful, how smart, eloquent, they're all struggling with confidence. Even the winners, you know. So let's just know this. Don't judge other people and create these false ideas that they're never gonna struggle with confidence, because they are. And it doesn't matter what you look like. We're all struggling at one time or another, and we can't forget that. So it was an amazing experience. And I really, I noted that most women, when I would ask them, what did you love so much about the pageant world? They all explained they had tremendous growth because they were petrified of going on the stage, maybe in a bikini, maybe they were petrified of the one on one interviews, but they went through with it. It was all about seeing fear differently, stepping into it and growing as a result. Which I know is something we talk about all the time, but this is so important. It doesn't matter if your fear is taking the stage for the TED Talk or maybe your fear is going to a pageant because you've seen other people do it and you never thought you could do it. You know, whatever fear looks like for you, take a chance on yourself because what you will do definitely is you will grow. And to see the growth for from what I saw arriving on Friday and leaving on Sunday and these women in just a few days was mind blowing. And to hear from themselves as well. So growth doesn't have to be something that happens over a decade. It can literally happen in a moment if you decide to step into the fear and make it happen. Okay, so before I get to our guest this week, so I'm so excited for you to meet him and I of course have to share you a deal.

So.

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Thanks for having me on. That was a good intro. I like that. It's like you sound excited for me to be here, which is more than I can say for many hosts that have me on. So I'm here.

I'm excited to say you have the best male hair I've ever seen in my life.

You know what's funny? Everybody said that today and I woke up and I didn't dry my hair. Cause I was running late and I got in an Uber and he just unrolled all the windows. And Norm and Peter from podcast one, they were like, wow, look at your hair. Oh my God, look at that hair. And even Cherry downstairs, the receptionist was like, wow, somebody did their hair today. I'm like, okay, the new trick is get in the car and just drive with the windows down. If only there were a machine that I could aim at my hair in the morning that would both dry it out. And make it look like this.

I mean, you've just discovered a need in the universe.

You need to solve that problem called, like, a hair dryer. Yeah, brilliant. Yeah, brilliant.

I woke up like this.

Yeah.

And no woman will ever do that, by the way. That sounds completely ridiculous to me. Roll the windows down in Uber and you're gonna look fabulous.

No, I thought for sure I look like a homeless person with nice clothes on.

Okay, you definitely don't. You look on point.

You look like Conan o' Brien with dark hair and shorter short Conan o'. Brien.

Or that. Funny. That's what I'm hoping for.

Oh, God, not even close.

Pressure's on.

Yeah, not even close.

All right, so here's what I would love to do in case my listeners don't know you. I've researched your story thoroughly, and there's so many interesting points that I want to get into. Obviously you have going to law school, you know, getting into Wall street, being laid off. You've had so much being kidnapped. You've so much freaking adversity that, I don't know, people are aware of. Can you give us a little bit of insight into your story and how you became this top podcast host in the U.S. sure.

So it's funny because adversity is not something I normally think of as, like a running theme in my life at all, especially. Well, in a way, like, I've done things that have resulted in adversity. However, it's also kind of like somebody at home who's like an African American person who grew up without good parents or something is like, oh, really? Tell me about adversity. Wall lawyer. You know, it's so. It's all relative. There are people that have real.

I have a tough time with that. You don't know what someone goes through until you step into their.

Totally agree. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. One of the things that I hate being told now is that I don't understand anything because I'm white, which really pisses me off because I'm like, are you kidding? You got a full ride scholarship from a place because you went to a private school and have, like, good academics, but, gee, you're another ethnicity. It just drives a further wedge in. I do, however, see guys. I work a lot in prisons, and it's awesome. It's life changing. And there are guys in there that are like, yeah, I made some bad decisions. Then they're like, oh, okay, cool. You're taking responsibility for your stuff. And then you hear what their decision was and they're like, yeah, When I was 8, my dad killed my mom, so I went to live with my cousin and they were selling drugs and I wasn't really into that, but then somebody came and killed my cousin. So then I had to live with their brother, but then they wanted to kill that other person. So people kept coming after us with guns. And then I bought a gun to protect myself and then I shot someone and I'm like, wow, that would have. I would not have made any different decision. And then they've been in prison since they were like 16 years old and now they're 41. It's like, yes, cool, you're accepting responsibility for things you did. But would you have made a different decision if you were 16 and somebody killed your cousin and then they said they were gonna kill you? Would you not have gotten a gun and then also been in a gang for your own protection? Yeah, of course I would have done that. So there's a limit to how much you can sort of take responsibility for your life situation. When you were handed kind of a crappy hand of cards so early that you didn't really have a choice. Like you have the illusion of choice, but not really. What are you supposed to do? Hide in the library and go to school every day and stuff?

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However, I do want to point out people look at you now, Jordan myself included, right that you know he's one of the top hosts here at podcast 1 I that's what I aspire to be, you know. Was it easy for him along the way? Because so much is just talked about you interviewing your guests instead of looking into what you have overcome. There are some very notable challenging times in your career, even recently, you know. But also going back to the beginning.

Yeah, that's true. I mean I did. I was really bored growing up in a lot of ways and I started to get interested in people purely by accident. I'm an only child so and my parents worked a Lot. And so I was always alone, and I started to get in trouble because I was like, oh, I can look. If I open up these boxes on the side of the road, I can listen to people's phone conversations and I won't feel so lonely, you know? So I started listening to people's phone conversations that were. You know, those green boxes on the side of the road that have all. Like, the landlines. Sure. Yeah. So I used to crack those open and, like, listen to people's phone conversations.

You're a hacker at a young age.

Oh, totally. And 100% illegal, by the way. Hopefully the statute of limitations has run.

Don't let the prison hear this. They might not let you leave your house.

I know. They might not. Or. Yeah, they'll be like, oh, you get to stay. So I started doing that, and I started to hear what adult conversations sounded like. Because when you're 13, that's crazy.

Yeah.

When you're 13, adults are like, okay, Jordan, do your homework now. We're gonna go to McDonald's later. They talk to you like they talk to kids. When you listen to adult conversations on the phone and they don't know you're listening, you're hearing what adults sound like when they talk to each other. So you're hearing, like, real feelings.

Is this, like, keeping Tom stuff?

Kind of. But I'm not looking at anybody. I'm just sitting there on the phone. Okay, so I'm not listening to, like, phone sex or anything, unfortunately. That would have been awesome. No, I'm listening to, like, my neighbor who's having a midlife crisis. Get a divorce, and, like, talk to his sister and be like, why doesn't Angela love me? And then talk to his mom and be like, mom, I feel so bad. You know, I'm getting divorced. And then he talks to his friends and he's like, yeah, screw her. She's so stupid. Oh, my ex wife, she's such an idiot. And I'm like, you know, if this guy talked to his ex wife or even, like, anybody around him, like, he talks to his sister and his mom probably wouldn't be in this situation. I remember having that thought at, like, age 13, 14, because he's talking to his boys and he's all like, I'm tough. And he talks to his soon to be ex wife, and he's like, oh, I don't care. I'm fine. You're stupid. And then he talks to his mom, and he's, like, crying.

Interesting.

And I'm just like, dude, you're Emotionally stifled. I didn't know that was what it was at the time, but now I'm like, ah, you can't communicate because you can't be vulnerable. And that's like your biggest problem. And your life is always gonna have problems like this because you can't say, hey, I know I've been really insecure and that's driving a wedge between us. Like you don't have the emotional bandwidth to deal with that. But you're like 40 and I'm 13, 14, and I'm like, ah, I'm never gonna do that.

So that was just a natural superpower that you had. Was that opportunity or ability to be in tune with communication?

Yeah, but I also honed it by listening to like a day of other people's phone conversations.

It makes me sad that you are.

Doing that for six hours a day.

Because I'm the mom of one child, a son, so I can understand how that can be lonely. But that's a bummer.

Yeah. I mean, now there's more stuff you can do. Like you can interact with adults online. For better or for worse, kids can do so they can see what adult communication looks like. But most of them are playing video games with man children, I guess. I would never play Xbox with 13 year old kids. It just seems. It seems weird and creepy. But back then there wasn't anything like that. And so I really had to grow up by eavesdropping. It was weird. It is weird. It's still weird to even think about. And then it also got me into trouble because one of the reasons I was able to listen for six hours was because I started sitting by those green boxes and hiding my bike in a bush and then sitting by the bush. But then it's like, I want to be at home. I don't want to be out in the sun and the rain. So I built wireless devices to transmit the conversations to my house.

Oh my God.

Yeah, it was weird, right? It's like nerd stuff for sure.

You were literally a little hacker stealing the phone waves or.

Yeah.

Wow, this is impressive. But this is your first entrepreneurial adventure.

Kind of. But I wasn't making any money doing it. However, then I did start making money doing it because what I was using for the wireless was were cellular phones. And so cellular phones that I would get from like broken ones that were in dumpsters by cellular phone stores. This is the 90s. So there's like one cell phone store. There's not like the AT&T store in the Verizon. There's like the cell phone store. So I would go and get those phones. Remember the bag phones?

Yeah.

I would go and get those, maybe repair them because. Or they're. They're just old and nobody wanted them. So they're, like, being. They didn't have recycling, then they just threw them away. And so I'd take it home, and I would, like, get a replacement cord or get out the soldering iron and, like, fix the little thing that's broken. And I would plug that into the box, and then I would be able to use that and essentially transmit things. And that' me into trouble in part with the FBI. That's because they were like, you can't do that.

You got into trouble with the FBI?

Yeah. So what happened was not me stealing the phone conversations and eavesdropping. That was not the problem. The problem was I was eavesdropping. And people would buy things with their credit card over the phone. And I was like, well, what happens if I write down this credit card number? Then I can buy things over the phone. And I started to buy things with other people's credit cards, like pizza. And I had pizza delivered to my school. I wasn't dumb enough to have stuff delivered to my house. I had stuff delivered to my. My school.

Oh, my God.

That was what got me in trouble with the FBI because I ordered pizza for the whole school.

What does get in trouble with the FBI look like?

So they call the cops. They can't figure out who did it. Then they're like, hey, the FBI needs to get involved. So the FBI comes to the school, and they're like, you're one of the sort of, like, suspects for this pizza heist. And they were going to get my friend in trouble. And I was like, oh, I'll admit it. So I admitted that I did it, which turned out to be a trick. The FBI guy came though and was like, I don't want to deal with this. This is really dumb. Tell. Just tell me how you did it. And I told him, and he was like, what does your dad do? I was like, he's an auto worker. What does your mom do? She's a public school teacher, speech therapist. And then he's like, so where did you learn this? It was like, the Internet. And he's like, but where on the Internet? You know, like on aol. Like, what are you talking about? Because he wasn't familiar. This is again, 1994. So he's like, explain this to me again. So I'm explaining it to them, and they're Just so confused because they're like, you took a cell phone that was in the dumpster. And then they called the cell phone store and they're like, no, we threw that out. He didn't steal it from the store. And then they're like, but you cracked open this green box. And I'm like, yes. And the phone company was like, we're not gonna punish a kid who's 14 for opening up a green box.

Yeah, but did the FBI want to hire you now?

So what happened was they were like, teach me how you reprogrammed the cellular phone. Cause I had to reprogram the phone to get it to do what I wanted it to do. And so I showed them, and they're like, oh, we think this is how drug dealers are using cellular phones to communicate.

Wow.

And not get caught.

Epiphany.

Yeah. So I was showing them this, and then their Washington, D.C. bureau of like, technical specialists. They're like, yeah, that's pretty much what we think. But we just didn't expect a 14 year old kid to be doing it. We thought it would be like some technical cell phone store repair guy. And I was like, no, it's really easy to find out how to do this. You can find the plans online. And so I started showing them where I found the plans online. And they found this whole giant circle of people who were doing cellular phone crime.

The dark Web.

The dark web in 94. So it wasn't even a web. It was like a bulletin board system which is like, you dial in with one of those modems that makes all the crazy noise. And so they set up a sting operation and caught a whole bunch of people that were helping drug dealers use cellular phones illegally. And like, all kinds and pimps and everything.

So this is the obvious moment where you decide you want to become a lawyer.

Yeah. Well, so I thought I should join the FBI, because this is awesome. And the FBI agent was like, we hire accountants because they catch financial crime. We hire lawyers because they. I don't remember why. What the rationale was back then. And then they're like, well, we also have general agents, but you'll make more money if you're a lawyer or an accountant. I was like, accountant? Ugh, math. No, thanks so much. Yeah, I kind of had my eyes set on maybe being a lawyer as I got older. Plus, it was an answer that really satisfied adults made other people happy. Yeah. And I lived my whole life trying to make adults happy just like every other kid, pretty much.

Well, especially after you got in trouble. At the FBI.

Oh, my God. It was like, now I have to be good for, like, 10 years, literally.

You had to.

Yeah.

Okay, so you get out of law school and you have no interest in the law?

No. Zero. And I knew that going in, but I thought, I'll be a lawyer for a little while, make enough money to pay back my student loans, then maybe join the FBI. And then I remember talking with more FBI agents, and they're like, yeah, we've had a pay freeze for, like, X number of years. And, like, this agency is not what it was when I started in the 90s. It was like this cool thing. And so I was like, oh, maybe I'll do, like, CIA or something. And then I met CIA agents, and they're like, don't do it, man. Don't do it. And I thought, if you hate it and you were stationed in Egypt and doing all this cool Middle Eastern spying, then what the hell am I going to do? It's going to suck. It's going to be terrible. Everyone talked me out of it. Then I just went to work on Wall street, and I was like, I'm fine. I'm just going to do this for a few years, make enough money to pay back my student loans. And then I got to Wall street and I was like, I'm going to get fired because everyone's going to figure out that I don't belong here. Fraud mindset, imposter syndrome, Right? And so I was like, how do I not get fired? Because that'll be really embarrassing and I'll owe all this money to law school. So my plan was to work from home as much as possible. And I was like, I gotta figure out how to do that. So I asked one of the partners how come he was never in the office. And he said, oh, well, I'm not working from home necessarily. I'm generating business for the law firm. And I was like, how do you do that? He goes, oh, I just hang out and, like, make friends everywhere. And I do jujitsu and golf and go do charity stuff. And I was like, oh, I need to do that, because if I can bring in business for the firm, they definitely won't fire me because those are the most valuable people in the firm.

Sure.

So then I was like, all right, how do I network? And I took classes and, like, Dale Carnegie's networking class. But the problem is, some guy in a sweater vest at the YMCA is not telling you the real stuff. He's like, look him in the eye.

I love that you thought they Were.

Yeah, I thought like, I was so naive that I was like, oh, this guy is gonna be it. And then I was like, you know, you'd hear him on the cell phone after class being like, don't know how I'm gonna pay rent this month. And I was like, I'm learning networking from this broke ass sucker. Like, not a good decision, not a good decision. So then I was like, what's the real deal? Like, how come some people make friends and are able to network and everyone likes them and is giving them like million dollar law deals and then other people don't have any idea what they're doing. So I started studying psychology. Like, okay, it's non verbal communication. It's getting people to know like and trust you. And I thinking about people that I knew that were really well networked. And I was like, they're cool, everyone likes them. That's more important. It's not like the guy who has a firm handshake. It's like people who really get it. They're like outgoing and fun and they have a certain personality type. So I sought to emulate that and that turned out to be a better idea.

And that was just self taught.

Well, I read books on psychology, nonverbal communication, body language, sales. I listened to a lot of videotapes, sorry, audio tapes about sales. And I mean there was like some old school sales stuff where they're like, when you're going in to sell typewriters, you want to make sure you have a demo model with you. Nothing makes them like the typewriter more than touching the keys.

That's true though.

And I was like, that's really. And I thought, oh, that's obvious. But then I thought, wait a minute, how does that apply to like law or doing business with me or like dating? And so I started to sort of reverse engineer everything from typewriter sales to I don't even know, just sales techniques and non verbal communication persuasion techniques. And I was like, let me plug this into a dating context because that's what I'm interested in at age 27 now. And this is, I'm 39 now. So it's not now now. It's back when I worked on Wall street. And that's what I started talking about because that turned out to work really well. And that's when people were like, what dating? Oh my God, nobody cared about networking. I was like, hey, I have this networking idea. People were like, whatever, dude. Then I was like, also, it might get you a date. And they're like, oh, kidoki, I'm listening. And then when guys found out, hey, I know all these different things now that women like that aren't just, like, stand up straight and make sure you don't have your shirt tucked in the back by accident, you know, Then people started listening. That's when I started my show, and that's when things started to explode, because guys were like, no one's telling us the real stuff.

No one was telling them to roll the windows down in the Uber and get your best hair.

Nobody.

You were bringing it to life.

I was bringing it to life.

Okay. So then you step into this crazy progression where you've got Art of Charm, your. Your podcast is live, and you're also doing events right around training and coaching.

Yeah. So back then, my old show, which I'm not allowed to talk about because they're gonna get all upset and call the judge. We just settled our lawsuit, so.

Oh, good.

I'm happy. Yeah, me too. It's so nice to be away from. And we started. I started because nobody else was working with me at the time. I started teaching guys, essentially. This is before it became creepy. I'm gonna put a little star next to it. I was teaching guys how to meet women anywhere. Bars, clubs, anything. But mostly at school because I was still a law student, but it wasn't creepy. Then this book, the Game, came out, and it was like, okay, cool, this is really interesting. But then all this pickup artisty stuff started happening, and it got creepy real fast.

What were you, like, the Pied Piper? I mean, you were just pulling people in with this charm?

I was teaching people nonverbal communication, body language. What people?

Sales.

Sales. What? A lot of. I guess what I thought at the time, women were meant when they said certain things, which turned out to be partially true and partially just BS you heard on the Internet. But it worked really well. And it was all about having the guy become a better person and deserving what they want, which was revolutionary at the time because all guys were like, ooh, say something clever and she'll believe you. And I was like, no, don't be a turd. Be responsible. Do what you're gonna do.

Were you even in a relationship at this point in time?

No, but I didn't need to be at that point. I was killing it. After being a nerd for 27 years, it finally had a little bit of an edge. Crack the code. And it turned out to be the answer to this wasn't, here's how you trick women. The answer was, be a better guy. And Deserve what you want. Like, make yourself better. Make a bunch of friends. Get a lot of people to know, like, and trust you by doing what you say you're going to do. Be reliable. Be there for her when she needs you emotionally, but not in a way that makes you kind of a sucker or, like, a weird, like, pseudo girlfriend. Help other people get what they want.

Be a good person.

Be a good person. And that was literally, at the time, no one was talking about that. You know, nobody was.

So this became lucrative.

It became really lucrative because we started teaching workshops where guys would fly in from all over the world and be like, all right, I need to learn how to do this from you, and I need to go out with you at night and see what you're doing, because I can't really picture it. And so we had body language drills and vocal tonality drills and, like, eye contact drills and everything to kind of teach guys what might be remedial social skills as adults, but a lot of us weren't getting. Because, remember, the Internet had come about when we were, like, 18, so a lot of us dudes, especially if we were kind of nerdy, we froze in time at, like, age 16 and just never became men at all.

So during this time, your podcast is up and running and starting to have massive results.

Yeah, yeah. And we weren't tracking things like impressions. There weren't advertisers. None of that existed. It was just guys were finding us. Guys and gals actually were finding us online and listening and asking questions. And I started to do phone coaching, and that's when people were like, I need to come and stay with you. And I was like, that's weird. But then some of our phone coaching clients are like, I will fly to you and I'll give you five grand if I can stay with you for a week. And I'm like, that's my rent in Manhattan. So I started doing that, and then I talked about that on the show, and then tons of guys wanted to do that, and I was like, but I'm a lawyer. I don't have time for this. So I started hiring instructors and hiring friends to work with me. And that was instead of living with.

The Navy SEAL David Goggins, it's live with the dating coach, Jordan Harbinger.

That's right. Right. So it was much more. More sort of sad and much more nocturnal. A lot less getting up early, a hell of a lot less running.

Thank. Thank goodness for your. He sounds a little brutal. So you're running a successful podcast millions of Downloads every month.

And then, well, I started to develop the business, and then I started to be like, you know, I don't want to teach dating anymore. I'm married. I don't live in LA anymore. You know, I moved up with my wife to the Bay Area, and I was like, you know, I don't want to talk about it that much anymore because I've already said everything that there is to say, that I'm starting to become very irrelevant, that niche. Because you outgrew it. I outgrew it. Right. And I was like, oh, I really want to talk to this neuroscientist, because I've already studied a bunch of brain science for the dating stuff. Why don't we talk about how persuasion works in the brain? Why don't I interview Kobe Bryant and talk about winning mindsets? Why don't I talk to Larry King and talk about whatever? So I started interviewing celebrities, scientists, and my business partners were like, hey, we don't want you to do that. We want you to keep interviewing and talking about dating. And I was like, no, why don't you join me on the show and you can talk about dating and I can do the other stuff. And they were just like, let's just split up. So the company split, but they didn't really want to do what we had agreed on, so I simply had to start over. We got into a disagreement, and I had to start from scratch.

But just so everyone understands this, because it's really important for people to understand this when you start over. You had 11 years in correct with that show.

Yeah.

So 11 years in, millions of downloads a month. So you had a website, social handles. You had a massive database, and you were not able to take that with you.

No.

So walking away from that literally was starting over from ground zero.

Totally. Yeah.

Was that a scary time for you?

So scary. I lost a ton of sleep. And my wife was like, you need to toughen up. Like, my wife was like, you need to toughen up. We need to, like, get through this, and you can do it. You just have to, like, stop whining, you know, because.

Did you know, you said, okay, I'm. I'm doing my own show. We're going all in. Even though I have nothing, I'm going to rebuild it.

Yeah. Because I knew that I loved doing interviews, and I knew that I was good at it. And I also knew that I'd been working with guys that I. That weren't really contributing much to the business. And I was like, I bet I can do More without them. And it turned out to be correct.

But that pivotal moment where you have nothing and you go home and say, okay, we're on day one here. Did you start forecasting? Okay, last time? It took me X amount of years to create this level of success. How can I replicate that and. Or do better? What does that look like when you do that step?

Terrifying. Because it's kind of like, imagine being like, okay, I built this house, and it took me 10 years or 11 years to build this house. I can't really wait 10 more years to generate income or have a place to live. Right?

No, you're married now, Right?

So I was like, I really hope I can do this in, like, five years. Well, it turns out I can build a show bigger than my old one in less than two years. But I didn't know that this only.

Happened less than two years ago.

This is 18 months ago.

But you had no idea it would rebound this quickly?

No clue. No clue.

What were the catalysts or the things you can point to that allowed you to move so quickly?

So what it was was I. I teach networking and relationship development. Not dating stuff, obviously, but, I mean, like, you know, getting rapport with people, getting them to know, like, and trust you for either sales teams, intelligence operatives, special forces. Like, that's what I do on the side, not. Not in the show. I teach it on the show. But, like, my clients are Facebook, in the military and stuff like that. So I thankfully practice what I preach, and I keep in touch with hundreds of people, and I make sure that I'm regularly texting them or emailing them or helping them get what they want, introducing them to each other. So what I did is I was like, oh, my God, I don't know what to do. I need some advice. So I started calling some of my old show guests, you know, like, guys that had started companies that were highly successful, and they all said the same thing. Oh, this is gonna be the best thing that's ever happened to you. And I was like, that's not what I want to hear right now. You know, I'm venting and whining, and they're like. And they're like, no, no, no. Trust me. They're like, this is the best thing that could have happened to you. Because you were the old show. You were the old brand. You have the talent, you have that work ethic. Like, you're going to be fine. Not only fine, but you're going to be better off than you were before because you're not carrying dead weight. And I was like, that's a really good point. So I started to really double down on that and I said, well what can I do do? And they're like, well I'll help you. I'll tell my show listeners or I'll email my list or I'm going to give a talk. I'll use you as an example in the talk and tell everyone to subscribe to your new show. And then all my other friends were like, oh, I'll mail this out to my email list right now. Oh, I'll share it on social right now. So I called like 100 people. Literally. Not like exaggerated. I literally called I think 112 people in the first week. It was a long week and I was really nervous. But everybody said the same thing. They're like, we'll help you, you'll be fine. If you had stock, I would buy it. That kind of thing.

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That's amazing. That's so I did the same thing when I launched my first book. You know, just calling that network that you have and asking for a favor is a really powerful thing that you can do. Especially when you're not the person that's constantly asking people for things. When you're the one that's extending a hand to help people over the years, it's kind of kind of crazy. So I'm so happy that worked out for you.

It worked out and it's a process I'm still building, but I am bigger than my old show ever was. And the key is you have to dig the well before you get thirsty. I think that's a Chinese proverb and also this book by Harvey McKay from the 90s. But the idea is you can't just randomly call people when you need something. You have to be in touch with them beforehand. And so I've systemized that. I have systems for that, that I teach, that I think are extremely useful. It's like insurance, but you can't buy it. If somebody said, here's $2 million. Sorry your show got screwed over. It would have been worth less than the network that I had. It would have been worth a lot less because my network now is everybody who I had to call to help get me back on my feet. There were people that were like, oh, finally I get a chance to help you. Because I would interview them for the. The show, and their book would go on the bestseller list. Or, like, I would help them launch their podcast, and I never asked for anything in return. So now I was like, I'm in a bind. And they're like, I heard. I'm already on it. I mean, I had that happen a ton. Yeah, I heard. Tell me the story. And I'd be like, well, da, da, da. And then they would help me out, like, with something.

What's important to point out for everyone right now is that that takes a level of vulnerability and humility to ask people for help.

Yeah, totally.

And that's something strong people do. Oftentimes people confuse asking for help as a weakness, and they're afraid to do it. So I commend you that you were in a low moment. Right. You just felt like you had lost everything, didn't know what the future looked like, but you were still willing to put yourself out there. It's a big deal.

Yeah. You know, people often will think, oh, yeah, asking for help, putting yourself on the line, it is weak. It's not, though, the strongest. Think about this like, you're stronger if you can put your shield down. You're stronger if you can take your armor off and walk around. It's the people who live in fear who are constantly. I mean, it's no surprise that when you see a guy who's really insecure, he's the one who's like, yeah, you have a Maserati in the garage. I just got a new boat. Like, no one's. You're not fooling anyone. You know, we know that you're insecure. It's the person who says, how do you spell that? I have no idea how to spell that word. What does that word even mean? You know, that that type of person who can admit that people might go, ha. He doesn't even know what that word means. But then it's like, oh, but what a baller. He can actually say, in public. I have no idea how to spell panache.

Okay. So you can teach me something. So I've heard you on different shows and you about sunk cost Fallacy. So can you dive into that a little bit and how our listeners can actually learn from that and not get stuck in that?

Oh, yeah. Sunk cost fallacy is like one of the sort of OG most common fallacies that humans fall into. So cognitive bias, logical fallacies. Our whole lives are guided by these, and so.

But no one talks about them.

No one talks about them. Well, unless you listen to the Jordan Harbinger show, then tons of people. Or this show. Tons of people talk about it because.

We'Re talking about it right now.

That's right. So sunk cost fallacy is when somebody here. We'll put it in a relationship context. So sunk cost fallacy is. Hey, Heather, I think that the guy you're dating is really terrible. He doesn't treat you well, and he's kind of a jerk, and your kids don't like him, and you go, well, we've been dating for three years, and we're thinking about getting married. So the fallacy is all of the stuff that's happened in the past, somehow I can't get rid of that because I've already put all this work into it, so it's more valuable. But the truth is, it'd be better for you to cut and run because the guy's bad news. So in a business context, it's like, we built this big factory in the middle of California. Ooh. But now it's like the taxes are high and it's really expensive to get the products to Florida from California. So we should stop using the factory, build another factory in Florida instead. That's the logical idea. But instead people go, but we already spent all this time and money building the factory in California. That Sunk cost fallacy. But we do it in our relationships all the time. Well, we've been dating for three years. I can't just be single and start over. Because you don't want to. Because it seems like a lot of work.

So how do you escape Sunk cost Fallacy?

You have to realize first that it is a fallacy. And go, okay, this is what I did for the past five years. That was great. I learned a lot of lessons from it. Where do I want to be in five more years? Do I want to be married to somebody who actually cares about me? Am I going to be comfortable being alone for the next little bit? That's the real issue. A lot of people don't want to be alone.

Did you go through that in your last partnership with the podcast? Were you in a moment where you, you were saying, I put so many years into this?

100%, yeah. And it's just like in relationships where you ever heard one of your friends go, but I'll never find anyone like him, or I'll never find anyone like her. That's what you go through when you're, well, I'll never be able to build an audience like that again. I'll never be able to get my show as big as it is right now. I'm never gonna be able to build anything quickly. I'm never gonna get a business going like that again. It's all bs. It's all garbage. It's not true at all. It's not true even a little bit. Everything that you built once you can do again. It might be harder, but like me, it might actually be a hell of a lot easier. You just don't know, right?

Because you've already seen the movie and you know the shortcuts and you know what to pull. So I was in the exact same situation in corporate America, feeling like there's no solution outside of this. I had so many years in, why would you walk away? It took me getting fired to make the jump. I hope people don't wait to get pushed out of something, but are willing to have that but foresight. Like you said, fast forward five years, do you still want to be in the situation, having the same conversation? Because it's not going to change unless you change it.

It's not going to change. And like, that's the thing. Being in a toxic partnership is the same whether it's a personal relationship or a business. It really is. It looks different. Because in a business you can go, well, no, technically I'm correct because blah, blah, blah, spreadsheets. But like in a dating relationship or something like that, I think we all know we're kind of lying to ourselves, like, well, yeah, he's cheating on me, but you know, I'm never gonna find someone else like that. Or, oh, but we already bought this house together. We have a dog. You ever hear that? And you're like, are you, do you hear yourself? You have a dog. Look, take the dog. He probably doesn't even want it. He's out frickin nailing other girls, like, get out of here.

But you are a new father now that you have a baby. I'm sure there's some level of understanding that you can empathize with, with people that when you have a child, things do change because now the focus is on doing the right thing for your child. And that can muddle the waters a little.

It can do. It can. And I feel for people that have a child and their relationship is a mess, but I also know. I know that a lot of people who have divorced parents are traumatized by the divorce, but I also know people who have parents that are together that should have gotten divorced, that are much worse because their example of a parents and adults is terrible. Constantly fighting passive aggressive bs.

Couldn't agree more.

And my best friend growing up, this is probably what colors my. My opinion of this. My best friend growing up, his parents were divorced when they were smaller, and the dad was always around, really cool. The parents got along. All the stepdad, the biological dad, and the mom, they all got along really well. It was like the. If there was a kid that was gonna come out of that divorce, well, this was like the model divorce. Right. If there ever is one. And I thought, oh, okay, they did the right thing. He's a great dad, but probably wasn't a good husband. Right. And so I look at that and I go, if I had to get divorced right now, I'm not really thinking about that. You know, I just had a baby seven weeks ago. We'd hope not, but. Yeah, But I'm like, do I want Jaden, my son, to grow up being like, well, my mom and my dad didn't work out, but now they're both happy individually, or do I want them to be like, my mom and my dad fight all the time and hate each other. And I guess that's what relationships look like. No, you would never want that for your kid.

No, you wouldn't.

And you think you're faking it, like pretending to be happily married and then talking about all your problems after he goes to bed? Kids, you kids can get into you. They know where your weed is. They know how to get in the gun safe. They don't think. They know that mom and daddy are fighting all the time.

Crack the green box.

That's right. That's right. They know this. And even if they don't and you think you're faking it, they're like, oh, that's weird. All my friends parents seem so much happier than my own.

Yeah, no, kids have that internal clock. It hasn't been. Other people haven't started directing it for them. So they're just picking up on the vibes that are out there. And they know better than anybody else.

Exactly. So I Dread, like, all my little flaws that I know that I have little and big. I dread when my son does something and it's because he saw me do it. It's so painful because my wife is going to look at me and go, see. And I'm going to go, I know.

Yeah. There's no bigger catalyst for change than becoming a parent and wanting to be a better person just so that they can start emulating your behavior.

That's wise. I feel like that's already happening. My kid is 7 weeks old and I'm like, oh, I better stop. Like, like being short tempered or like being picky about what I eat or like whining about somebody being late because he's gonna do all that. And I'm like, ugh. My life is not better because I complain about people being late. My life is not better because I don't like vegetables.

You know, I have to create the dad worksheet now.

I know. Yeah, I'm gonna have to do the dad show.

All right, so no one gets off this show without sharing what their lowest confidence moment is. What was yours?

Oh, my God, where do I even begin? I have funny ones from childhood, but I also have, like, probably some grown up ones. I'm trying to think, which one would you rather have grown up? Yeah, you know, it's gotta be. Yeah. When I, when I first started the business, I mean, we kinda just talked about this, but when I first started over, I should say, I was just like, is it even possible? Because everyone goes, you'll be great. You did the other show. The reason people listened was because of you. But, like, there's this, this nagging part in the back of your brain that goes, is it though? Am I really that good at hosting a show? Do people really care that much? Are they really gonna Google Jordan Harbinger and find the Jordan Harbinger show? Or is that just what arrogant, narcissistic pricks like me would like to think? You know.

Luckily it worked out for the benefit of it.

Luckily, my arrogance is completely founded and justified.

All right, Jordan, where can people find you and where can they find your shop?

Sure. The Jordan Harbinger show, Spotify. Or anywhere you listen to podcasts or@jordanharbinger.com and look, if people have questions, I answer every email and every social thing. JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

That is very impressive.

Every single thing.

That is very impressive. And your show is, of course, on podcast one.

On podcast one. That was the worst time to not remember to say podcast one.

I'm here for you. We got the logo right there. All right, well, Jordan, thank you so much for being here. It means the world to me.

Thank you for having me.

So I hope you loved meeting Jordan as much as I love getting the chance to sit down with him. Not only is he a very smart guy and super successful, especially in the podcasting world, but really, really nice human being and has sent me so many funny notes and follow up and ask how he can help me and, and he's a really good guy, so I love supporting good people. So definitely check out his podcast because it is one of the top shows out there and he's a top notch guy. But before I get started, I gotta give you at least one more deal. You know I love a good deal. So here's a question for you. How did you sleep last night? This is a big one. And you know, I talk about this a lot. Sleep is so important to living your best life. Feeling sharp and connected and focused. You know, some of us spend the night tossing and turning. Some people have a difficult time falling to sleep or they wake up with a stiff neck or their back's bothering them. They feel like on their mattress they just don't get a great night's sleep. That's a major problem. And when you think about the kind of day you have after a great night's sleep versus the kind of day you have after a horrible night's sleep, I think we all know getting a good night and finding a way to get a good night's sleep is critical. It really, really is. So if you're struggling to get a good night's sleep, you have got to try a purple mattress. Purple mattress was formulated by two brothers who've been developing cushioning technology for 30 years on things like medical beds and wheelchairs. They know their stuff. In 2016, they decided to use their patented comfort technology to create purple, the world's most scientific mattress. This is major. The purple mattress will feel different than anything you've ever experienced because it uses the brand new material that was developed by an actual rocket scientist. It was not like the memory foam that we are used to. Purple material feels unique because it's firm and soft at the same time. So it keeps everything supported while feeling really comfortable. Plus it's breathable, so it sleeps very cool. You get a hundred night risk free trial. If you're not fully satisfied, you can return your mattress for a full refund backed by a 10 year warranty, free shipping and returns free in home setup and old mattress. Removal.

Hello.

They covered it all. So you're going to love purple. And right now my listeners are getting a free purple pillow with the purchase of a mattress. That's in addition to the great free get rest. That's in addition to the great free gifts they're offering site wide. Just text CONFIDENCE to 84888. The only way to get this, this free pillow is to text confidence to 84888. That's confidence to 84888. Message and data rates may apply. Okay, so now that we got to hang with Jordan, we got to get a great deal on the purple mattress. I wanted to answer some of your questions and I'll tell you this week there's a couple of interesting ones that came up that I thought would, might be relevant for you and might be interesting to you. So one came to me, I like this one. It came to me from LinkedIn. It was a DM that I got on LinkedIn. And this is a woman who's messaged me a couple of times, but this time she was telling me that she's in a sales job, a new sales job. She just went to a new company and she is struggling because they do role playing and she really doesn't like the role playing. Now I find this interesting because, and I asked her this on DM, on LinkedIn. She feels comfortable as a seller, she feels good as a seller, but she doesn't like role playing.

Hmm.

That says there's another issue here. So I said to her, so you're comfortable selling and you feel like you're a great salesperson, but you can't do it standing in front of your peers. And she said, yeah. So I said, okay. So either you're afraid you're being judged, you don't like the people you're working with, you know, because that's even a bigger problem if you're working in a toxic environment where you feel people are negative. And she said that wasn't the case. So I said, then you feel that you're being judged. You're, you don't like that idea of having people watch you because you don't feel confident in yourself. So she, she did admit that that probably was the case. So, so a couple of different things that I shared with her is one, like anything, the more you practice, the better you get, right? So maybe you are great at in sales when you're one on one with a client because you don't feel you're being judged and you feel safe. But the more times you stand up and do it in front of other people, the more comfortable you'll become with that. It's no different than public speaking. The first time you do it, you might not feel like a million bucks, but after you do it a thousand times, you're going to feel fine. You're going to see that, you know, it's the same way driving a car. The first day you got your license when you were 16, you were not that confident. However, now, years later, after driving how many times, you don't even think twice before throwing your car in reverse, looking behind you and backing up, right? So things become much easier the more we do it. Experience, practice, all of those things will create confidence by default. The other thing is, you know, find someone that's your champion in that room and lock eyes with them, Tell them that you're struggling ahead of time, and that's going to help you feel encouraged and empowered and not alone. Another thing is make a joke. Maybe when you stand up, say, listen, I know this is going to be hard for all of you to believe, but when I'm out there on my own during the day, I feel really like I'm crushing it. And I'm great in sales. However, I have to tell you guys, I'm nervous up here. So I need your help, you know, make it be honest with people. Like, let them know where you're coming from. Because guess what? You are not the only person that has ever felt that way. And the more real you become, the more you take down those walls that you have to do everything perfectly and you're being judged and, you know they're not gonna like you. You know, that's just not real. And the reality is people are always thinking about themselves, their week, their day, about them getting up next to role play. They're not sitting there fixating on you and waiting for you to do something, quote, unquote, wrong. Because guess what? If everyone did it perfect, no one's gonna learn anything what they're looking for. And I led sales teams for two decades. You're always looking for someone to have a misstep, to do something not ideally, because then we can all jump in and say, hey, here's a way I would handle that, or here's a way I would. And that's really where you start. Start collaborating, and people start working together to improve as a team. And the leader there wants you to come together as a team. The leader wants people to jump in and help one another. And those are the moments that, you know, really create bonds. And it comes from the fails and the slips, not from someone nailing it every time. So get back to focusing on creating your confidence. Show up as your best you, and know that each time you do it, you're going to get better and better, and everyone's going to see it. And your missteps and mistakes are actually going to lead to learning moments, teaching moments where we all can work together and get better as a team. Okay, so then I got another note. All right, this is a good one. Heather, I love your podcast. Appreciate everything you're doing. I'm struggling with something that many people struggle with. How to feel comfortable making small talk in different professional situations. I've searched for shows on this, and I cannot find anything. However many settings, social settings are causing me anxiety now. There are many times that I don't feel comfortable, and sometimes I need liquid courage. I. You know, so, okay, this person is in sales and marketing and needs to be able to show up. It's a very important part of her job. So, number one, I have a chapter in my book, Confidence Creator is dedicated to this. Okay? It's all about networking and how to be strategic and how to align yourself with people and how to have that conversation. Listen, first of all, nobody wants to be at the cocktail party. Nobody wants to be at the convention. When it's the convention portion is done and you're at the meet and greet or networking, we all would rather be at the gym or be with our family or, you know, be doing what we want to do. However, this is a part of business. It's a part of life, and I lived it this weekend at Miss Alabama. Right? Walking into that first meeting, I didn't know anyone there. Of course, there is an element of some level of, okay, you know, what are people gonna think? Or, I don't know anyone. How am I gonna speak to people? You know, what we need to do is we really need to say everyone's in the same boat. No one's excited to be here. And the more I can show up as me, smile, introduce myself to people and ask about them, the easier this is gonna be on me. People love people that are interested in them. People love people that ask about them, ask about their lives. And knowing that everyone in there doesn't want to be there, everyone in there is nervous on some level. Nobody wants to be judged. Everyone feels a bit intimidated. Use that to your advantage, right? So use that as a connection point. Open with a joke. Oh, my gosh. Are you just as excited as I am to be at this cocktail party?

Wow.

I sure didn't want to be at home right now. You know, just instead of letting that fear cripple you, let that fear connect you to other people. I'm always surprised by whether I'm doing a book signing or at a speech. People are nervous to speak to me when in reality I don't want to stand there by myself waiting around. I love when someone comes to talk to me because especially if they have something to talk to me about my book or what I'm doing, or know something about me, that is the nicest feeling in the world. And immediately I'm so interested in them. So put that same thought process to work for you. If you have a chance to study and research people before you go to the event, that's always extremely helpful because you can have a couple of targets that you know your a lot about them. You're going to go up and ask them specific questions immediately. The conversation will flow that will put you at ease. But also make it a game. Do not take your phone out, do not have a wingman that you're going to hide behind, and do not hide at the bar. You know, you need to keep moving and you just keep making eye contact with other people smiling and make it a game. It's a numbers game. You know, I will speak to 10 people tonight before I leave this party. And if the worst thing is you walk up to 10 different people, introduce yourself, give them a genuine compliment, which is always the best thing to do. I did that when I was on the Steve Harvey Show. I was really nervous. Candy from Atlanta Housewives is a bit intimidating if you don't know her. And I thought, what's the way I could break the ice with her right now? We were standing backstage in total silence together and I just said, hey, I gotta tell you, I love your flippin skirt.

It's the bomb.

And I was telling the truth. She loved that, right? So she said, oh my gosh, let me tell you about it and started talking to me about, I didn't know if I should wear it and whatnot. So, you know, it's important too. It's very important to have honest conversations, to give honest feedback and to give compliments whenever you can. And if not, crack a joke because that always helps. And know everybody is in that same boat you are. No one wants to be there, so why not do it together? Have fun in that moment. And if this isn't enough for you, check out my book, Confidence Creator. I've got an entire chapter with strategies and tactics on how to approach events like this, how to find ways to connect with people, how to create small talk so it is not impossible. It just takes practice and work and there are some great strategies that are gonna make you very, very good at it. So I'm so glad that you joined me this week. I appreciate you so much. We're over 500,000 downloads. We're going for 1 million by the end of this year. I so need your help to get there. Please share the show with your friends, please send me messages and I love your reviews. When you share your reviews with me, I will repost them in my Insta story. Please tag me in your stories when you share the podcast and I will repost you and reshout you out. I love your support, I appreciate you and I hope you have a great week. Big confidence. Going for big new things this week. Come with me. Let's go. Pluto TV is the leading free streaming television service. Watch over 100 TV channels and thousands of movies on demand, all completely free. Pluto TV never even asks you for a credit card. You don't even need to sign up to watch for free. Pluto TV is the easy and completely legal way to watch your favorite TV shows and hit movies for free. What are you waiting for? Never pay for TV again by downloading Pluto tv. You can download Pluto TV for free on all of your favorite devices today, including your phone, roku, Amazon Fire TV, Apple TV, Smart TV, PlayStation and anywhere else you stream.