#301: Turn Your Anger & Outrage Into ACTION, With Jessica Jackson Human Rights Attorney & Former Mayor of Mill Valley

The more you see in the system, the more you understand how broken it is and how rigged this system is and the more outraged you get. And you know, I'm somebody who would much rather turn my anger into action than just sit around and be met.

I'm on this journey with me each week when you join me, we are going to chase down our goals, overcome adversity, and set you up for a better tomorrow.

I'm ready for my close up.

Hi, and welcome back. I'm so, so excited for you to meet our guests this week. Jessica Jackson's quest for justice began in a Georgia courtroom. The high school dropout held her two month old daughter and watched helplessly as her husband was sentenced to six years in prison. At that moment, she decided to turn her shock into a crusade to change the justice system, literally. As a single mother, she graduated college and then law school. Today, she is leading the bipartisan movement to end excessive incarceration. Jessica's specialty is bringing political rivals together to pass bills considered impossible. I love that. As the bill's main advocate, she led the Drive to pass 2018 First Step Act. The New York Times called the law the most substantial justice reform in a generation. It has already helped free more than 7,000 people. While leading her national initiative, Cut50, Jessica helped ban the shackling of jailed pregnant women in 14 states. Her dignity for Incarcerated Women campaign enlisted formerly incarcerated women and dozens of celebrities to deepen the focus on women's issues. At the helm of cut 50, Jessica built the biggest national grassroots network for bipartisan reform, cut 50's empathy network. She also produced the first ever bipartisan criminal justice summit, attracting leaders as diverse as Newt Gingrich and then Attorney General Eric Holder. Jessica has led not only on the national level, but also served as the youngest city council member and mayor of Mill Valley, California. Today, she now helps lead Reform alliance, an organization where she's continuing her work to end mass incarceration and mass supervision. Jessica, thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you for having me on.

My gosh, your background is crazy. I want to go back to so much of what I talk about and what I believe in is at the core of, of achieving anything is that this need to be confident and have strong beliefs. When I see the magnitude of what you've accomplished in such a short period of time. But then I hear how you started out as a single mother essentially losing her husband to prison. Take us back to that time and how were you able to find the fortitude and strength and did you have.

This vision Back then, I mean, it's a hard time. Whenever I think about it, I can't help but, like, still get a little emotional, you know, even though it's been, gosh, 18 and a half years now. But it was probably the most helpless feeling. Like a lot of people don't know when they hit the rock bottom, but that, you know, very much was rock bottom. I had struggled myself with addiction and, you know, had bartended. And here I was, like, pulling my life together and, you know, just had a brand new baby. We had a house. We had, you know, an income through my husband at the time. And then suddenly he's gone. And it's not just that he's gone and there's nobody to, you know, hold her so I can take a shower or go to the bathroom. It's. It's that his income is gone and I'm not working. I just had a GED at the time. Our house was gone. All these safeguards that you have were gone. The nursery I put together for her, everything just gone simultaneously. There was a pipe that broke in the house and ruined half our stuff, right? So I really, literally felt like I had nothing. And it was. It was scary because while having nothing, I also had the biggest responsibility I'd ever had in my life. I had to be a mother to this little, tiny, sweet baby that was in my. In my arms. So, you know, I remember walking out of that courtroom. It was Georgia 2004. You couldn't really breastfeed, you know, in the hallway. So I walked into the bathroom, and I remember, you know, I sat on the floor in the bathroom stall, and I'm just looking down at this baby and I was crying all over her. And she's just so sweet and has no idea what's happening, right? So she's looking up at me with these big blue eyes and just nursing and like, she's in the happiest place. She thinks she's totally safe, right? And I'm like, your entire world just fell apart, and you have no idea. But it's my job to make sure that you don't know and that you don't find out. And, you know, I worked my butt off. And it was a few months later I decided I wanted to be a public defender. I applied to one school. Luckily, I had taken the SAT before I left high school, so I had that, and I had a decent enough score to get in with my GED to University of South Florida. And then it was sort of just one foot in front of the other Yes, I knew I wanted to be a public defender, but I had no idea what that was going to entail.

Right.

Like, I remember my mom trying to tell me, and me being like, yeah, whatever. That sounds easy enough. Like, I had no idea how hard it was going to be and how balancing, you know, this child and schoolwork and, like, doing it alone, and I just had no idea. And I'm glad I had no idea, because I probably wouldn't have done it if I'd known how difficult it was going to be. But I just put one foot in front of the other and, you know, things fell into place, and I just worked as hard as I could, and every day I came and was inspired by the sweet little face sitting there, knowing that I had to make a better life for the both of us.

So the real driver for you was your daughter and your responsibility, 100%.

And it's funny because now she's in college. She just started. She's a freshman at Penn State. Actually, today is her bid day for her sorority. So we've been talking a bunch this weekend. And it's funny because, you know, sometimes we talk about classes, and she's like, how did you get through these classes? You got to take these classes that, like, you might have no interest in. Like, I really did not care about geology, right. Or numbers, logic, numbers, or whatever these classes were I was. I was having to take that weren't in my major. And she's like, how did you get through those? And I'm like, I didn't have a choice. Like, you had to get them to get the degree, to get the job. I wanted to feed you. That was it. You know, it was just one foot in front of the other.

It's so. It must be so funny for you now to see her and how different her life is because of these difficult choices that you made.

Yeah, it's funny because every once in a while, I'm like, you know, she'll be talking about something, and I'm like, oh, you think you got stuff to complain about? But then I have to remember, like, this is what I wanted for her. Right? Like, I would never wish what we went through upon her. And, you know, it certainly had an impact. She didn't know about her dad's incarceration until she was nine. Actually, I told her when she was nine, but she never knew before that. And I probably wouldn't have told her, but I decided to run for office and was a little concerned it might come out. And, you know, I should probably be the one to tell her so. It's amazing. But that's exactly what I worked so hard for, for her to have a life where, you know her. Her biggest concern is which sorority is she going to get in and what internship is she doing this summer.

I had a difficult upbringing, and thankfully, to your point, my son doesn't. But I always think when we have those moments, like your daughter. My son's 15, and he'll have those moments where it's so hard. I don't know if I want to play AAU basketball this season. And I look at him like, are you. That's hard.

What are you talking about?

Are you crazy? But then, right, I have to look in the mirror again and say, but I'm the one that's creating this life, you know? You know, and I'm grateful that he has the life that he has. But in some ways, don't you feel like that adverse. That massive adversity, which yours is huge, it also ends up being a blessing, not in the moment, but years later.

Yeah, sure. And my parents will say stuff all the time. Like, my dad will say stuff about, you know, like, oh, but you turned out fine. Because I'm like, you know, I went through all this stuff, and of course I've got feelings about it. And, you know, when you're talking to your parents and they're like, oh, but you turned out fine, I'm like, I literally could have been in the morgue, or I could have been, you know, like, bartender for life or who knows what. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but, like, I could have ended up on a very different path, but instead got here. But I would never wish. Yes, I think adversity creates resilience. I think adversity creates. Forces you to really reckon with who you are and the material of who you are, what you got in you, right, You. You get to know yourself in a way that you wouldn't otherwise. And you get to understand your own limitations. And you get to understand, you know, how to exceed those limitations and how to get around them and what you're really capable of. But at the same time, you have the trauma of the adversity that you go through, which imposes its own limitations. Right. And its own issues. So I. I would never wish it on my daugh. Hope that she becomes resilient without having any true traumatic experiences. But I feel very lucky and very privileged to be in a position where I can provide a life for her that is so different than what mine was.

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Does seem that you found your purpose and your passion. When did you get clarity, what you were really going after and what you were really doing?

Yeah, I mean, this whole thing with him was just like, it was just that BS from start to finish, right? Like, I was working at a daycare while I was pregnant one day he didn't come to pick me up and I'm like, okay, that's weird. I wonder where he is, right? And I get home and there's like, I walked home like a mile. And I get home and there's all these cars all over my, my grass. Not even in my driveway. Like they're on my lawn. I'm like, okay, this is weird. And I walk up to my own home and these detectives walk out and I'm like, okay, hi, can I help you? And they tell me my husband's just been taken to jail and they're trying to make him sound like he's such a bad person. And in my mind I'm like, I don't, I feel like you guys just don't understand. Like, he's a good person. He's just got this addiction, right? And it's super sad, but we're trying to get him help. And I remember in the moment actually feeling a little bit of relief. Like I was, I was sort of relieved. Like, okay, now he's had some sort of contact with the system. You know, he's going to want to go to rehab. Maybe they'll even say he needs to go to rehab to drop the charges. Then we go in to see the lawyer. The lawyer does not. He doesn't care. He's got, you know, hundreds of cases at the time. There was no public defender system set up through Georgia. You just had like these Private lawyers, basically operating as public defenders. This guy's got all sorts of cases. He's not involved. He knows none of the facts about it. He doesn't seem to care. I'm calling and calling and calling. He doesn't seem to care. I'm like, I'm about to give birth to our daughter, and my husband's in jail. Like, he's gonna miss the birth of our daughter. You know, one thing I remember, we were talking about, there was a plea on the table, and we rejected the first plea. The first plea was 10 years, basically, of supervision, but serve one year in prison. But they would suspend that if you would go to this boot camp. That was six months. And it's just like a, you know, like a wilderness thing. The lawyer was like, don't worry about it. He doesn't have a record. Like, this isn't that serious. I can get him probation at the time. Probation. Like, okay, that sounds fine. Now, I know, you know, probation is actually a trap, but so I'm like, okay. So we turned down that deal. And they come back and they said, okay, well, now 15 serve six, because you didn't take that deal. And the lawyer's like, oh, you better take it. Like, suddenly this guy, like, has read the facts of the case, and he's like, you better take it, because if you go in front of the judge, he's going to sentence you to so much more time. And I just remember him looking at us. He was like, 15 serve six means he'll probably serve about three and a half years with good time. And then he looks at us, he goes, but I've never seen a couple make it more than two years. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, oh, my God. What? So we end up taking the plea. He goes to, like, you know, prison. That day, I'm sitting there with the baby, he's, like, handing me his car keys, his wallet, his phone, which he never would have before, you know, and he's like, here's everything. And, like, good luck. And I just. I. I bring the baby home myself, right? But that's probably when I started to get clarity, because I was like, this is crap. Like, this whole process has not taken into account. Like, I thought we would get to talk to a judge, tell him like, that my husband's a good person. He's gonna go to rehab. He's. He's an employer. He's a great son. He shows up every weekend for Sunday dinner. You know, we have 17 people who work for us. Like, we're building this vision, this life together, he's a good dad, you know, whatever it might be like, I thought we would get to talk to somebody. They didn't care. It was just all what was on paper and you know how they felt in that moment, the actual sentence, if they were willing to just let him do six months, but then came back with six years like it bore no relationship to any sort of public safety issue. So I think that's really when I started to get clarity, like there's a better way to do this and I want to be a part of that solution.

So there's no doubt that there is a better way. However, it's looking at something so massive and I'm sure so many people said this to you, like, oh, don't think you're the first person that thought you can change the court system, but it can't happen. It just seems like, like the Titanic trying to turn it right before it's going to go under. How, how were you able to wrap your head around this idea that everyone's telling you, like, no, there's no possibility that you are going to be able to change or really impact something to making that decision that yes, you could.

Again, it's like you don't know what you don't know. Right? Like, I didn't know. There is no reason that like a ragtag group of activists under, you know, one of the people who has campaigned the hardest on tough on crime should have been able to pass a bill that would get thousands of people out of prison. But we didn't know that at the time. We thought, you know, the system works where you come, you bring people, they share testimony, you talk to lawmakers, you know, you know, convince them that you've got evidence based solutions that are going to do a better job of keeping people safe and then you get a bill. So I think in a lot of ways my own ignorance has been one of my biggest blessings and then also my, my own persistence because, you know, I, I was outraged. I still get outraged all the time. I'm working. There's a case that I just learned about that I'm trying to help on. I just learned a whole bunch of outrageous things that happened to this guy. And I couldn't even sleep last night. I was so mad. I was practicing talking points on it. And like, if I could get on Tucker Carlson, this is what I would say about this case. You know, like, this is why everybody should be angry about it. I just woke up with a fire in my belly. You know, when I finally did fall asleep. And it's, it's like that every day. The more you see in the system, the more you understand how broken it is and how rigged the system is, and the more outraged you get. And, you know, I'm somebody who would much rather turn my anger into action than just sit around and be mad.

Oh, I love that. I was just talking about this the other day. You can choose to be a commentator in life or you can choose to be a leader. And the difference is being willing to take some risks, take some action, and try to create change. So I completely applaud what you're doing. For so many people that are listening right now, Jessica, they're saying, no, leave bad guys in prison. What is she talking about? And I truly believe, myself included, there's this element of ignorance that we're just not aware. You know, it's so clear to you because you, you studied so much, you spent so much time hands on, you've had personal experience, right? Clearly, anyone that's had a personal experience that has lost someone who is a good person into the system and felt that it was unjust, they're going to understand it. But for the 90% of population out there, who hasn't, how can you explain it to them?

I mean, I think you can think of it in a couple of ways, right? We don't want to sentence people who have committed, you know, low level offenses or nonviolent whatever. You're going to draw the line somewhere for yourself. But you don't want to sentence them to die in prison, right? That means they're going to come home one day, right? So you got to think about what's going to happen to them when they go into the system. And by the way, 95% of the people in our system, there's about 1.8 million people who are incarcerated right now. 95% of them are going to come home at some point. So this is somebody whose child is going to go to school with yours. This is somebody who's going to work in your community. This might even be your neighbor, right? So do you want them to get ripped out of their home, ripped out of their life, have all their networks severed and then end up being traumatized in overcrowded, dangerous prisons with bad nutrition, terrible health care, treated like an animal? They don't even call you your name. They give you a number, right? You're now a number. And then just open the doors and let them out into the community. But by the way, they now have a criminal record. So they can't find housing, they can't find a job, they can't get a loan. They, a lot of the time are on supervision. They can't leave the jurisdiction. You know, they have all these onerous rules that they have to follow. They can't associate with somebody else who has a felony or they'll go back to prison. Right? They're, they're shut out of society still. But what does that mean? That means that they don't have a whole lot of options, right? So the cycle is leading to massive failures. We have very high recidivism rates. That means somebody who gets out and ends up getting rearrested, sometimes not even for committing a new crime, sometimes just for violating a condition of their probation and getting returned back into the system. So we're investing billions and billions of dollars every year of taxpayer resources into a system that's failing on average about 68% of the time. Right? So if you could buy, if you could buy stock, are you going to take your billions of dollars and invest it in a stock that's 68% chance of failure? No, of course not. Right. Now if you were to take a step back and say, how do we break this cycle? What you're going to see is you've got to look at why crimes are being committed. You've got to address the underlying reason why people are committing crimes. A lot of the time it's addiction, like my ex husband. Sometimes it's mental health issues that are going untreated because it's very hard to get mental health support here in America. Sometimes it's just lack of an opportunity. Right? You have to feed your family. What would you be willing to do to feed your family? Right? So if there's no jobs to be had, who can blame you if you take another path? Right? Sometimes it's, you know, lack of educational opportunities. And this is what there is. I was actually just talking to a conservative friend of mine the other day. She was telling me she had heard that, you know, there's a new wave of crime in Philly, of youth. And a big part of it is that they got locked out of community centers where they would go after school during the pandemic. So many of them turn to the streets, right? So there's all these underlying reasons why people commit crime. And we do nothing to address that. We just simply take people say, okay, now you're going on timeout. You're going to be traumatized while you're on timeout in this cage. Okay, now we're letting you back in. But by the way, we've made it even harder for you to succeed. So what we need to start investing in is diversion programs. We need to start investing in education. We need to start really investing in mental health. We need to really start investing in substance abuse treatment, economic opportunities, and mobility for vulnerable populations. We need to start investing in things that we have evidence works, and we know it works because there are pilot programs out there or even systems set up like the veterans courts, for example, if you're a veteran and you live in the right county and you commit a crime, you have access to the veterans courts. And there they actually take the time to figure out, like, why did you commit this crime? Oh, you're having mental health issues. Let's get you in to the VA and get you the therap that you need. Let's assign you a mentor. Let's get you job placement. Let's get you financial literacy. Let's help with that substance abuse and get you into substance abuse treatment. And Instead of failing 68% of the time, the data from those courts shows us that people are succeeding 82% of the time.

Wow, that's huge.

Huge.

So is that your ultimate goal is to make that. That pivot, but globally, not just for veterans?

Yeah, I mean, I think our ultimate goal is twofold. One, it's going to take us a long time to get rid of the stigma that has been attached to people with criminal convictions and with criminal records. So we have to break through that stigma. We have to get more people out there who have convictions or have been in prison talking about their experience. And I'm lucky, you know, with the Empathy Network and with so many formerly incarcerated people that I work with over at Reform alliance, there are some really courageous people out there who are willing to tell their story, willing to risk being further stigmatized by it and traumatized by it, and willing to put a face to this issue, show these aren't bad people. These are people who made a bad decision, but they're worthy of rehabilitation and they're worthy of redemption. And then second step is we have to change the laws. So we have to change hearts, change minds, and change laws.

So how are you able to unite this bipartisan effort to pass the bills that. I mean, this is something that no one can do in our country right now and you've done successfully?

Yeah, I think it comes down to a very human element. Right. Like, I'm in this because of my personal experience. There are people on the right who have been personally impacted and I'm lucky to work with a whole bunch of them in our coalition, But I think it just comes down to a human element. One of the major ways that we were able to build this coalition was through our Dignity for Incarcerated Women campaign over at Cup50, because it was just so incredibly outrageous that departments of Corrections were shackling women in labor. Like, I've given birth three times. I promise you, I'm not going anywhere while I'm in birth. Right? But the fact that they were shackling and handcuffing women and placing the children's lives in danger and placing the mother's lives at danger and ripping these kids out of their mother's arms just. Just hours later, you know, and taking them away and then throwing them on, back in shackles and bringing her bleeding back to her cell. And it's just so horrific what is happening to women that everybody we talk to about the issue, you know, especially when we brought women who had been through that. We had one woman, Pamela Wynn from Georgia, and just the rawness, the trauma from her just radiated through the room when she talked about what had happened to her. Been five months pregnant, but in the system because of a health care fraud, Medicaid fraud. She was working in a. In a doctor's office. She actually herself wasn't even really responsible for it, but she kind of got caught up in this. She's put in the system at five months pregnant. She's trying to navigate being in the system, being in shackles and being pregnant. She trips over her shackles, getting onto a bus one day, and she fell, and it caused a miscarriage, which she had alone in her cell screaming for help. And they finally came and took her to the hospital. And when she got to the hospital, the doctor said, you know, we need to see the baby. We need to see that everything came out. And she realized she had no idea where her baby was. And so she looked up at the guards, and they said, we threw it in the trash.

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah. So bringing her with us and her courage and willingness just to relive her worst moment over and over and over again in all these meetings with Congress members, you know, it just was so powerful that we were able to get provisions banning the shackling of women in labor written into our federal bill. And when we had the vote, it was amazing. They'd done the Senate vote. I had flown down to Georgia for one day to see my parents. And while I was down there, they scheduled the House vote. And Pamela Wynn lived down in Atlanta. So I called her up. I said, hey, they're gonna, they're gonna vote on this in the House. Do you want to come with me? And she said, of course. You know, she'd been with us for the whole ride. And so we get on the plane, it's like 6am, I've got my then three year old strapped to me. You know, Pam and I are on the plane, we get up there and we make it over to the house, barely make it to the house. I remember, like, handing off the baby to a babysitter right in front of Congress. We run in, we, we get there and sit down and Karen Bass, who was the chair of the CBC at the time, is speaking. Congresswoman Bass, who's now mayor over in la, and she's speaking on the floor. And suddenly I hear her retelling Pamela's story and I'm like, pam, this is like she's talking about our visit. She didn't know Pam's name, but she remembered the visit. And she's like, this is why we have to pass this bill. It's people like Pamela who have had these terrible experiences in prison. And then the House voted to advance the bill, meaning it was going to President Trump's desk for his signature. And I just remember Pam and I bursting out in tears like, oh, my God, we couldn't have done it without the stories of people like Pam who came with us and fought alongside us this whole time. And, you know, there's just a very human element to this issue, and I think that resonates with both sides, and I think it resonates beyond the political spectrum. We had the NFL endorsed the bill. We had who weren't very political at the time. We had Verizon endorse the bill like, you know, this was the most unlikely coalition, but it was because of these human stories and this incredible traumatic impact that the system was having on people.

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This is such a great example of the power of storytelling. First and foremost, which you've, you know, really brought to life. And this woman did in this specific situation. And kudos to her for having the courage to share, you know, because nothing would have happened had she not be willing to share her story. But then, you know, also just humanity is good when people do hear what's actually going on. The problem is elevating it in such a noisy world so that people can hear this. What are some of the other tactics that you've leveraged in order to do so?

We work hard to reach audiences where they are. So when we're bringing in our grassroots partners, we aren't afraid to work across the aisle. If it means that we're going to have access to somebody's platform, if it means that we're going to have access to their networks, we'll work across the aisle. Another way that has been really useful and again, helped with the first step back, has been working with influencers. We have influencers like Kim Kardashian, who, you know, when she got involved in criminal justice reform, it was still a very obscure niche issue. Nobody really cared about it. I used to go to cocktail parties when I was working on death penalty cases, and, like, the fastest way to kill a conversation would be, you know, somebody had asked me what I do, and I'm like, oh, I represent people on death row. And they're like, okay, awkward. Like, they didn't know what to say. Right. It was like, such a weird thing to them. Like, what if they're guilty? Like, oh, yeah, no, no. The ones I represent, yeah, they're guilty. Yeah. No, but they shouldn't die. You know, like. And people just didn't think of it that way. There was such an uphill battle, and Kim, you know, alongside a few others, really made it, like, a popular issue. She went into prison on her show. She showed the process. She brought everybody along. She live tweeted an execution. Like, she has been willing to lend her name, her status or audience to this issue in a way that nobody ever has in the past, and it has resulted in, you know, this issue becoming mainstream. When I talked to some, you know, a colleague, they're like, oh, that's great. Like, that's kind of like what Kim Kardashian does, right? And I'm like, yes, absolutely. Like, same thing. We're doing the same thing. We're working together.

How do you figure out, you know, to target a Kim Kardashian? Like, how do you figure out who those right people are to go after.

To be your advocates, you know, it's funny. So there was this article. So we did this event, 2016, home for the Holidays. It was about clemency. Was really pushing President Obama. Like, use your clemency power. You're leaving office. Let's get as many people out as we can through the presidential power of issuing commutations. And I think by the end of his term, he had issued 17, 15 commutations, which is huge. It's great. But there was a woman who had been denied three times under his administration, the 63 year old grandmother, Ms. Alice Johnson. She had been what's called a telephone mule. So after her son died, her son tragically died, she found herself in a position where, you know, she would answer the phone and tell somebody, this is where you go and pick up the drugs. And she got swept up in conspiracy charges and was basically going to die in prison because of it. Little sweet lady firecracker just left such an impression, even in prison, just left such an impression on everybody she met that the warden, he loved her and he actually allowed her to Skype into an event that we did, the Home for the Holidays event, to kind of put a face to this. So we had a bunch of reporters. So a lot of people learned about Ms. Alice's case from that Google Cut 50 event. And an article, mike.com did an article. I did some backgrounds with the reporter on it, did an article about her a few years later, like, why? Where's Miss Alice? Why is she still in prison? And it published. And then Kim Kardashian just happened to see somebody tweet it. And I remember she tweeted like a sad emoji with a tear. And I screenshotted that and sent it to my team. And I'm like, kim Kardashian's sad about Ms. Alice. Like, that's cool. Didn't think much of it. We're working on the bill, we're working on First Step Act. And this woman I work with, Topeka Sam, who's like, force of nature. She is formerly incarcerated. And we had organized to bring 70 formerly incarcerated women to the Trump White House. And the beauty in it was like, nobody really knew that they were incarcerated. So they're like walking around talking to Jeff Sessions, talking to Ben Carson, talking to Betsy Devos, like, and then at one point in the program, we're all sitting there on stage and Topeka is like, okay, raise your hands or stand up if you have been incarcerated. And all these women stand up. And I just remember I was sitting like, plain view to Jeff Session. And I just remember his face was like. Like that. Like women he had just been talking to and. And, you know, listening to had actually been incarcerated. And he couldn't believe it. You know, it's like a little grandma sitting there. Suell Allen and other women who, you know, you never would have guessed looking at them, but those women all on that day and Topeka showed up wearing these pins. And their pins said, Free Ms. Alice. And we were in the green room because Jared Kushner was on our panel as well. We were in the green room, and Jared was talking to Topeka, and I had just introduced him to Topeka, And I remember he pointed at her pin. He said, well, tell me about this woman. I've heard about this case. Tell me about this woman. She said, oh, she's great. I was incarcerated with her at Danbury. She's a firecracker. And so Jared was like, jessica, I want to connect you with somebody else who's working on this case. So he connected me and my boss, Ben Van Jones, with Kim Kardashian. And Kim had reached out to her, had her lawyers reach out to the lawyers who were working on Ms. Alice's case, one of whom had worked with me on the Clemency now campaign. And they were trying to push Trump to a commutation. So we all joined efforts. And as soon as Alice got out and Kim took that famous picture with Trump, I just remember her saying, this doesn't end here. There are thousands of Ms. Alices, and I need to help them. And then she helped us with a federal bill, and she's been on fire ever since.

It's incredible, the momentum, reach and exposure just from that one domino falling. But none of that would have happened if it didn't go back to you deciding with your GED to go to college and then go to law school. It's just so interesting to me that I believe, and I'm interested to know if you feel the same way, that when someone truly finds their calling, not that any of it's been easy, but that certain things do fall in line.

Yeah, for sure. You know, I happened to go to a dinner that Van Jones was speaking at in 2012, and, you know, afterwards I was jazzed up because I knew him as, like, the criminal justice reform guy. He closed prisons across California. And then I go to this dinner, and he's just, like, talking about the environment, which is great. We have climate change. It's important, you know, we should recycle. But to me, it just wasn't as important as Criminal justice reform. So I waited in the line. He had just written a book, so everybody's getting their book signed, Waited in the line. And my friend Patty was actually assigned to be the person that, like, drove him to the airport and then to his hotel and, like, drop him off. And so I said, patty, can you introduce me? And so she introduces me to Van. And it just sort of jumbled out of my mouth. I'd only been out of law school for like a year, but it just sort of jumbles out of my mouth. I'm like, you know, he's like, oh, did you enjoy my presentation? I said, you know, the environmental stuff is good, but there's still people in cages. And he is like, taking him back. He's like, well, I did all this stuff on prison issues. I did this, this, this. And I was like, yeah, but that was 10 years ago. And he's like, let me get your number. We're gonna work together one day. And so next time he was in town, he. He let me know he's coming in in town. So I got my friend Matt Haney, who's now an assemblyman in California, and we went and met him for breakfast, and we're like, look, like we think there's a lot more that can be done on this issue, and we need somebody like you to believe in this cause and help us. And he was like, okay, I'm all in. Like, you guys come over. I've got a non profit. We don't work on this issue, but we can start. You know, we can give you guys a section. You guys just got to raise your own money. So of course, that's how Cut50 got started. But at the same time, he just happened to be starting his career with cnn and he just happened to be sat next to a guy named Newt Gingrich on. On a show. And they were talking like, the whole show is crossfire. They the whole premise of the show is they don't agree on anything. They're just fighting, fighting, fighting, fighting, fighting all the time. And then one commercial break, Newton him are like, making conversation and news like, oh, what are you working on? And Van's like, oh, I'm working with these, like, young activists in San Francisco that want to work on, like, getting people out of prison. And Newt's like, yeah, yeah, you know what? You guys need to bring, like, conservatives to this. And Van's like, why would you guys care? And he's like, well, because we believe in second chances. We believe in redemption, we believe in fiscal responsibility. The current system is not fiscally responsible. We believe in systems being accountable and having transparency. The current prison system has no accountability, no transparency. Right. You guys need to bring us into the conversation. And from there was born the first bipartisan summit on criminal justice reform, which led to the first bill that we worked on, which led to the, you know, us building this coalition. So you're right. Like, everything fell into place. There were so many little things that had it not happened, you know, who knows where we'd be?

Well, I mean, I am blown away by the work that you're doing. Thank you so much for putting yourself out there, for continuing to push an uphill battle to make the world a better place. What can the listeners do for anyone that's listening right now that says, I want to be a part of this, I want to do something good, how can people get involved to support you?

Well, we need you guys.

We need you.

We can't do this alone. So I'm constantly trying to grow this coalition. We've got bills in several states, Pennsylvania, Iowa, Indiana, where we're fighting back, a bad bill in Virginia, Illinois, we've got a bill, but we've also got a federal bill that we're going to be reintroducing. And we need help. We need all hands on deck. You guys have seen Congress right now. I want to prove that bipartisanship isn't dead on this issue. So we need you to go to reformalliance.com. join us. You can follow us on social @reformalliance. You can follow me, Jessica Jackson, and, you know, just join the fight. We've got different states, letters of support that you can sign on to and send to your legislators and days where we go up and talk to your legislators and we need you guys in tow.

Jessica, thank you so much for moving forward with the confidence that you have, the passion that you have and making this world a better place. There's nothing else to say about it, guys. Everyone listening. I'm going to put these links in the show notes below. Go check out Jessica Social, check out the Reform alliance and do more good. Thank you, Jessica.

Thank you.

I couldn't be more excited for what you're gonna hear. Start learning and growing. Inevitably, something will happen. No one succeeds alone.

You don't stop and look around once in a while. You could miss it.

Come on this journey with me.