#353: DEFINE & Align Your True Values To Find FULFILLMENT In Your Successes With Kevin Miller, Former Pro-Athlete & Self-Help Author

Let's go through these areas of life and look at what you want and why. And what is amazing is how often people haven't really clarified what they really want. It seems all elementary when I speak it. It seems elementary. Well, most common sense is not that common these days. I mean, we've got all the information that we need to be the healthiest, wealthiest nation in the world and we're the sickest, fattest, saddest nation in the world. It's not working. So over here on goals and knowing what we want, we really don't the cultural expectations and adopt ourselves to those and it's not what we want.

Come on this journey with me each week when you join me, we are going to chase down our goals, overcome adversity and set you up for a better tomorrow.

I'm ready for my closeup.

Hi and welcome back. I'm so excited for you to meet our guest this week, Kevin Miller. He's a former pro athlete, respected personal development guide, top ranking podcast host, no joke. Published author and father of nine who has devoted himself to helping people elevate their personal experience and improve the way they show up for others. Kevin hosts the self helpful podcast which yours truly was recently on. Go catch that episode. Which has over 60 million downloads and is routinely visited by today's most influential changemakers. His book what Drives you? Challenges today's myths on driven people and serves as a guide for clarity and conviction and in what you authentically value and what truly motivates you. Kevin, thank you so much for being on the show with me today, man.

It's a blast to be talking with you again. And I love coming on shows with people I've had on mine. Cause I have context. We've already resonated and so this is just nothing but fun. Thank you.

It is so fun. I'm so excited. And you know what's so funny? And you know this from being a host, when you do show prep to have someone on your show, you get to know them so much better. Yes. You and I have spoken many times. I consider you a friend. You're a great person. But now I know so much more about your story. So it's even more exciting, you know, getting to sit down with you today. So I'm super psyched for this and I really want to start Being a former pro athlete is such a flipping big deal in my world. My son is like dying to be an NBA player. So we're constantly following pro sports, talking pro sports and I'm watching the dedication, the work ethic, the sacrifices and the drive needed to make it happen. Will you take us back a little bit to what was it like becoming a pro athlete?

It was fun. I mean, I think you're supposed to say how hard it was and whatever, man. That's all we did. It's all I knew. The guys I hung out with, we lived together, we trained together, we progressed together. We were on the same teams together. We traveled around the world together. It was my posse. It was. It was like the Blue Zones, like Dan Buer's, you know, Blue Zones. And it so spurred us on, and it was just a blast. I mean, it took us around the world, so we got to experience so much. I. I'm grateful for it, just for. But then the competition, too, was so. I mean, I finally got tired of the lifestyle, but I can still, man, watch a bike race or see the finish, and it just raises it all back up and. And I still race at an elite level off road today. It was great. I'm so grateful for what it taught me and for what it exposed me to.

What are the biggest teachings that you take away from that time?

There's good and bad ones. Heather. Now, in retrospect, I look back and saw I was. I wish I had been more coachable. I was a little bit more interest somewhat in the rivalries, even amongst peers. You know, on a training ride, sometimes I put more into that than in the race. So I wish I had been more strategic. And it gets part of my story about what drives you. What drives you. Man, it was just going fast and doing stuff. But then I really set a goal. This is what I want to achieve, and I didn't always do that. So that's part of the book as well. But, man, it taught me so much, just about my own personal growth. I'll never forget a guy when I first went over to Europe, I had a hard time initially, and literally the races I didn't finish. He said, man, every time you don't finish a race, you know, you drop out. You think you're out of contention, you drop out. It makes it that much easier to quit the next time you're training. Your brain sounds pithy now, but back then, like, oh, man. And it changed not only how I raced, but even in my own training thinking, okay, if today is hill, repeat today, and I'm supposed to do five repeats up that mountain, I'm not going to quit, because if I quit, it trains me to quit. Now, I hold that lightly because, you know, I can get caught Up. I've let myself be imprisoned by that sometimes and gone. Okay. I do need to be. You know, it's not. Maybe not 100% of the time, but for the most part, I'm training my brain. And then just the aspect of seeing your progress, you know, seeing the failures, seeing the successes and grappling with that and learning about yourself, that's the invaluable part about sports. Not that that's the only place, but it is. And doing it at a high level. I mean, my gosh, it's an adrenaline rush, no doubt.

It's incredible. I love that you just brought that idea up of when we quit on something, that we're actually training ourselves, that it's okay to quit. Because the first thing that popped into my mind, no comparison to being a pro athlete, but I run in Miami, which obviously, you know, certain times of year, it is so much more challenging than other times. Right. Like January, you can go out for a run. It's no big deal. You might even break a sweat. But if you go for a run, like today, right now, as I say, and it's 100 degrees and the humidity is so hot, it's really hard to breathe. Right. And so I went through this mental thing where I'm like, okay, this is my training moment. Like, if I can push through this, it's going to be so easy to run any other time. Like, I'm going to make it so much easier. But to your point, I quit my run, which I never do because I literally. I was having a hard time breathing. And when I did that, the next time, when I got to the same location, I'm like, oh, this is where I take my. Like, I stopped again. I had trained myself and not realizing it. So thank you for articulating that. Oh, this is where I stopped last time. It's fine that I'm stopping again. And to your point, yes, it's important to give ourselves grace. But I can tell you this after just hearing you say that there is no chance I'm going to stop at that point again, because I don't want to train myself to quit.

Yeah. So at this point, I've trained myself. I'm not a quitter. I know I can keep going. I know I can keep doing it. If there's a given day where I'm just. Man, I'm not in the mindset. I go out. I've had some of those. And I thought, you know what? I'm just not feeling it today. And I've really focused, especially I'VE got an idea, got something going on, and I really just want to go deal with that. You know, it's not like I'm going back to eat Cheetos on the couch. I'll let myself go do that. And then knowing that the next day I may go out with not a whole lot in mind and feel really good and just triple my effort and go out there. So I've learned, you know, who I am. But in those, especially in those early years, I think for anybody, if you're starting a business, if you're starting your own personal growth, pursuing athletics, you know, pursuing weight loss, whatever, that there is so much in getting past those. Yeah. Hurdles of quitting. And it's interesting you say that. I've got places on my rides and runs right now. Those are hard spots, you know, and I kind of get used to slowing down or that's where I walk. And then I'll remember. Okay, don't go ahead and run that. Even if you walk somewhere else, don't make that the point that you always walk. Don't let that be a triggered point for you. So, to what you said, I agree.

Yeah. I'm so in for that one. So thank you for giving me that little teaching. That's going to help me a lot, and I really appreciate it. Okay. So one of the things that interests me about pro athletes and former pro athletes, specifically on the outside looking in, like, I would imagine, you know, you've reached the height of the height. Right. Like this is. I mean, most kids dream. Right. Is to be that level of success in sports. And this kid, too. I've played sports my whole life. Like, that seems incredible to me. How do you transition from that? Is it such a letdown to go to work for yourself? But then you've come back as this massively successful podcast host. What is that transition like? Has that been hard, challenging, or rewarding, or did you anticipate it?

I didn't. I kind of quit abruptly, though. It was at the timeline, too, and I just had other things going on. By the time I quit, I had three kids, and that's abnormal. On the pro cycling scene, I was known for that somewhat, and I had other things going on. So it wasn't like I left myself. I struggled a little bit with. That was my identity for sure. Probably the best answer to your question. The saving grace, again, to use that word, was I had been doing things alongside it in the industry that really related to my overall, if you want to call it your calling, this is what I would Call my, you know, the purpose that I had found. And even in cycling, my sole focus wasn't just winning a race. I realized there's a long story to it, but I realized the influence I had, bottom line. So as a pro cyclist, here I am and I'm riding alongside maybe a sponsor and you know, some CEO dude worth bazillions of dollars and we're out on a ride together and out on the road we're peers and actually I'm the expert. And it changed the paradigm. And here's this guy opening up about his life and his marriage and stuff. I'm going, dude, what? I'm just some, you know, 23 year old punk and you're telling me this. And it dawned on me, oh, but out here I have respect and, and I care about people in that sense. I do care about, you know, taking something that excites me and inspiring other people with it. And so I started doing that and we created a club and then we owned our own team and then we did events. So when I did leave the competing of it, I just continued those pieces of it. And now here we are, all this time later, I'm doing the same thing. You know, I'm using a platform to reach people with inspiring messages, personal growth. That's what I care to do. And it's interesting as you watch my trajectory amongst a lot of different endeavors, that's what I always gravitated back to. If I could do anything, I'd go back and just be more clear on, oh, I keep coming to that. That's what's important. I think it would have helped me embrace it more as opposed to go after the next shiny object only to come back to doing what I always come back to. But that helped a lot. When I didn't view myself as, that's me. I'm only the guy on the bike racing for the podium now. There's other stuff I'm doing. And so that transition, call it transferable skills, was dramatic. Otherwise I think it would have been a lot hard to leave for everybody.

Listening right now, because I know for me, I couldn't see forward when I went through the position of transition. For me was getting fired. That idea of, well, I have seen these patterns in my life, but where does this lead me? Like, how do people identify those patterns that now you can look back and see so clearly we're leading you to where you are today? Like, how can someone who's in the middle of that identify it with some.

Degree to shameless self promotion that's what my book is about. It was what I wanted for people, honestly. It was my adult, adult kids that I initially had the thought for. But it was a co joined idea too with realizing that some of the errant areas of my life were because I hadn't gotten clear on what I really value. Which is to me the heart of what drives us. When we know what we value for us and us alone, not other people's expectations. When we know what we value and we know why, that helps us understand that bigger picture of what we're about Now. I didn't go after that with absolute clarity, but I'll give credit to my upbringing, honestly. My parents and the culture that I grew up with, they were very values driven people. So even though I didn't have it written up on the wall, didn't have a goal sheet out with it, I knew, didn't know what I, what I valued. And so that kept me almost subconsciously somewhat, you know, it kind of kept me in the direction that I wanted to go and kept me pursuing those opportunities. I just wasn't clear. That's why I say, I think if I had been clear, I would have been a lot more effic, wouldn't have made as many mistakes as I did. And along the way I went, I did go awry on some different ideas that were shiny objects that I would get into, you know, start a business. I had one particular kind of during the dot com thing started it, it just killed it. And I left because I just realized I don't give a crap. I wasn't motivated by money. I should have a little bit more back then, but I just left and I walked away, literally went to a meeting with my partner with a bank, we doubled our business and I walked out in the parking lot and I said, you know what dude, I'm out. I was pursuing something now that, you know, that kind of fit my heart and it was growing a community and I left it. And I wish I had not wasted that time or been that unclear on things or maybe I would have brought that value into that business and stayed with it and made some money. So I did have a lot of wobbly endeavors because of a sure lack of clarity. So here I am with people with the book, with my kids, saying, okay, get clear on what you value. What do you really care about for you in these areas of life right now? It may change and evolve, but what do you care about right now that you own for you, not for somebody else? And do you know specifically why it's a holy grail to me. Obviously, I wrote a book about it.

And I want to get into what drives you, but you just brought something up that I don't want to miss go anywhere.

Yeah.

You just brought up your ability to create community, which you've done massively well for everyone listening that so many people. You can be a personal brand these days, you can work in corporate America, but you still want to develop that community. What are some of the tips and tricks you can give people so that they can grow their community.

Man, right off the cuff. And this came up recently, Heather, and talking with somebody else, I think they asked me about how I had seen things in this industry of personal growth and inspiration, whatever, how I'd seen things change. And I think today, back in the day, if we go back in time somewhat, I think there was that aspect of you're up on stage because you figured it out, and you're going to tell everybody else how you figured it out. And there are still some personalities that come across that way these days, but not many. Most of them like to feel they're on the journey with you. And so it was an interesting combination for me in that I grew up in that industry, and I got soured by the people who were up on stage acting like they had it all figured out. I was struggling with my own ego. I didn't want to be one of those people either. And then authentically, I don't feel like I've arrived at anything fully. I may have been around the corner, but I had you on the show and I'd had you on there, and I'm asking you questions, man. Tell me more about that message. Let me learn. Let me understand. I think people really appreciate that, and I think they also just feel the spirit behind it. And this is what I mean, you can tell this is what I get excited about. If we start talking about money and finances, all of a sudden, I'm going to kind of be down here and we can talk, and hopefully I'll have something smart to say. But it's just not my gig, you know, and you hear that here. People feel that I want it for them. You know, I started off in podcasting with the Ziggler show, Zig Ziglar, and he was one of those key people, man. You just felt him. He just believed in you more than you did for yourself, and he wanted it, and I love that about him. And I think, at least in, you know, the personal growth aspects, that's how I feel for myself, and I feel for others. And I think that comes across and as you talk about as a podcast host and as a leader, I think people feel after a while it's what's great about podcasting. You can't listen that long, you know somebody's spirit and it's infectious and I get infected by people like you. It's awesome. And gratefully I think that's worked for me as well.

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That's such a great point. John Maxwell has a new book out, 16 Laws of Communication and and the biggest point in his book is exactly what you said. You don't want to separate yourself from the audience. You don't want to say how you're so much better than everybody else. You want to bring them along with you. You want to join in with them, have them saying me too and have that relationship with you. And I think that's so important. And without a doubt when you're explaining it, that's the one thing people relate to with me is sharing that story of I got fired and here's how I'm moving forward and I certainly don't have any of it figured out, but here's the mistakes I've made along the way, so hopefully you don't have to make them. That's a really great point. For everyone listening right now, showing up and sharing that you don't own everything, that you aren't the biggest expert is actually going to be your superpower. So thank you so much for sharing that. All right, I do want to get in to your new book and I love that you have this huge podcast, but one of the cool things that you did with the book was you really highlighted so many things that you had learned from your guests in the show. You've had the most incredible roster of guests on your show and to take some of these brilliant takeaways. And starting right off in the beginning of your book, highlighting some of these stories and teachings was so incredibly powerful. Did you know that that's how you would structure this book? Was this a big strategy when you launched the podcast?

It was. I mean, it's amazing. Yeah. I get to sit here with people like you and talk about, you know, have conversations that matter about issues that matter about personal growth. You know, which, that's my area. I play with finances over here because that's not my. That's not the fun place for me. So I don't sit and have financial talks. But personal growth, man, that's. We're in my ballpark now. And so a couple responses to that, Heather. One is, yeah, I realized along with this aspect of drive and understanding what you want and knowing why that that typified the people I had on the show. I didn't go after them because I knew that I found out afterwards that man, son of a gun, so happens to be that pretty much everybody on my show. I mean, they're there because they figured out something that they wanted or some things. I would say it's never one thing. They found out their values and they understood why they wanted them. They were pretty clear on that and they went after them and boom, here we are and we're talking because of that. And I even noticed at the time that I came up with the idea for the book or really came up with the desire to pursue this concept of drive that there were pieces even of my guests that I wasn't experiencing like peace. I was driven, doing a lot of things and having fun in that, having fun experiences and, and even fulfillment. But man, I was lacking some peace that I saw in a lot of them. And I find out as from areas that I was unclear of about myself, especially my own personal awareness. And so it was a journey into what I wanted for me again, what I wanted for my kids and what I wanted with other people. But yeah, matter of fact I started to make it. There were so many stories of other people that it was actually my liter agents at one point were like, dude, you need some of your own stories in there as well. You got to exist in there. Like, yeah, but these stories are so great. And so I did, you know, I've got plenty of relevant stories, but I love that that I have the messages of so many people like you, Heather. I mean we did a four part series on you on Overcome your villains on your, you know, message and stuff. And so now I've got Heather quotes, you know, in my head not just from reading them somewhere even, but engaging with you and talking about them and then, you know, having Holla Taha on the show and talking about you and y. I talked with Amy Marin and with the overlap of you and it helps ingrain it into my head. So yeah, my guests, the format of the show has been. It's a ridiculous privilege that we get to do this and make Money from it I would pay to come down to Miami. I'm sure it would cost me a lot and sit with you and glean from you. And yet we get to do it here and we both get, you know, paid for it, and we benefit from it and our own personal growth. It's a ridiculous privilege.

It's wild. But I do have to say, the way you structured the book, the action steps that you put in the book, it's so useful. It's like literally looking at all these incredible, brilliant minds that you've had, taking the best teachings from them, incorporating them with personal stories. So it's super interesting, engaging, and then giving action steps for the reader, which I personally love, because once someone walks away from reading the book, they're not going to be wondering, what is my purpose? What is that next thing that I need to do? You've really laid out a very nice roadmap. So I like that. At the beginning, you mentioned that you were actually doing this for your adult children. What was that like? Was it a conversation or they were coming to you with the same questions of how to move forward and what to do with their life?

It sounds weird because it sounds like, you know, back when I cared about my kids, like, I don't. But there was a season where Saturday mornings, I'd be up before them. I think it was when they were still all at the house pretty much, but maybe one or two had left, you know, and so they're kind of out. And it was a new place for me, and I would find myself writing thoughts for them, and I'd email it out back then, and this was one. And I realized, man, all the things that I care about, I just want them to know what they want and to know why. And that gravitated into drive. And some of that is relevant, some of it. You'll appreciate this. And you've got a lot of business folks in your audience that we also use the word drive because it's sexier than saying, know what you want. Well, that's just kind of a boring title, you know, so it was driven around that. But I do love that when drive came up, I had a lot of people testify that, man, Kevin, we know you as a driven guy. It's a great perspective or, you know, vernacular for you use for this. And it's made up of, you know, what you want, your values, which is a really important word to me overall, knowing what you value for you and then why the alignment, you know, of that. So, yeah, coming into what I wanted for my kids with this was big. And again, realizing that, that, you know, those are the two myths that I talk about in the book is that we think some people are driven and some people aren't. I think, no, we've all got it in us. Some people, it's just, it's dormant, hasn't been triggered yet. So that's one and the other is that drive is everything. And of course we know that is not the case as well because I spent a lot of time driving really fast towards. I don't even know where, man, but I'm just driving. It's like that. I have that in the book Yogi Berry, you know, being lost on the way to the baseball hall of Fame. And his wife says, yogi, you know you're lost. And he says, yeah, but we're making great time. I actually heard that from David Lee Roth and I thought, holy smokes, that's funny. And I really relate. I kind of cringy a little bit too. So, man, playing with those is so fun. But I love driven people too. That's why I had you on the show.

Well, let's start with that first myth that some people are driven, some people are not. I know that a lot of people listening right now are going to say, I listen to this show because I'm not driven enough. I want to be more driven. Can you break that down a little bit for us?

Yeah, I do. I mean it irritates me because I think we discount ourselves and we discount others. We go, oh, you know, Barbara's really driven. Bummer. Johnny's just not at all have any in him. Like, ah, you know, he didn't win the lottery, he didn't get the genetics. You know, some people get red hair, some people don't. Luck of the draw. And I think I kind of used to align with that just because that's the common cultural perspective. And then I saw way too many examples of and back to so many stories of people that that was not the case. They were not quote, driven. Nobody would have looked at them and said that. And one of those stories is what I lead off chapter one of the book. It's Ben Hardy, Dr. Benjamin Hardy, one of the best selling authors out there. Really incredible gu guy. I had him on a show, I think I've had him on like four times. And he makes this little quip about, yeah, you know, and my parents, they blew up and our religious construct blew up. And so I find myself at 19, barely made out of high school, I'm playing video games 14 hours a day and just had nothing. And I have him on the show and I'm going, okay, wait, that pisses me off. The one on one doesn't equal two in this scenario because that violates everything that I would want to do as a parent and I would want to impart to my kids so that they're, you know, driven and successful. Whatever. He had none of it.

It.

And here he is having, in a lot of ways succeeded in a lot of areas way faster and more than I had. Let's break this down. How does it happen? And he's one of those examples of everybody would have said he had no experience, he had no drive, he had no exposure to anything good. He had none of the ingredients to ever result in anything. And yet he finds himself and his dad, his meth addicted dad's, you know, house, and he's looking around going, what? Well, if this doesn't change, I'm probably not headed towards anything good. I probably should do something different. Dude, that wasn't some cataclysmic event. He didn't get bit by a spider and wake up with superpowers. It was just a little bit of a dawning. And I found, man, so many of the stories of these successful people are kind of like that. It's just this dawning. They had drive in them that just nothing had triggered it yet, but it was there. They didn't all of a sudden have a dawning like him and then go, oh, go, well, now I have to go get a gene implant to be driven or pursue self help for the next decade now, dude, they just kind of became driven overnight. And you've heard that, you know, everybody's heard that with somebody who gets the heart attack diagnosis or somebody dies in their life and it just changes the paradigm and all of a sudden they're zero to hero overnight. The drive was there. We don't lack it. We didn't genetically get brought into the world without it. We may not have found something we care about enough to trigger it, but it's there.

The first thing that you suggest, then I'm putting words into your mouth. But taking it from the book, when people are in a situation where they're not feeling driven or other people are telling them they're not driven, is to really get to that. Why, instead of looking at the what, start getting at that. Why? Why are you here? What is your purpose? What is important to you?

Totally. And another piece that was really interesting to me, Heather, and it was a guy I'll never Forget. And he was relating to me. I don't know if it was a show I was on or I can't remember. I wish I could because it's a part of my story, but he just referred to me as Kevin. I wish I was as disciplined as you are, okay? And he said that because it's so blatant that I, you know, I was a pro athlete today. I'm fit and athletic and, you know, exuberant, whatever. And so I get credit for that as being disciplined. And so the guy says that to me. And then real quick, somehow I got talking about his going back to money, finances. I don't think he had some big job or whatever, but he just took care of his finances. And he had like 5 million in the bank or something like that, and he didn't invest it. He didn't really need to work anymore. Holy crap, dude. And you're saying I'm disciplined? You got that skewed. You are, too. Just not in an area that's as blatant as me. And I find that with most people, they discount themselves because maybe in some of the, you know, hot light things that we hold up in our culture, they don't feel disciplined, but they are in some other areas is often the case. And it's interesting, even among amongst. I always call them aspiring people. Now, we had Arthur Brooks on the show recently, and he talks about strivers. You know, he calls them strivers in his book Strength to Strength. Even there, though, I find a lot of people who are really down on themselves and they're having success. They've got drive over here. Maybe in their work, man, they're killing it, or their finances or, you know, they're killing it. But over here, they've got relational stuff, you know, that has really gone downhill or spiritually, they feel bereft or something like that, or, you know, something's going. Or maybe the opposite, man, they got great relationships and great health and wellness. Their finances are just terrible. We focus on the negative and don't give our credit for. No, we're. We're doing the math over here. We know what we want. We're going after it. We know why, and it's working. But the same. We think the same math isn't working over here. And that's what we focus on. And we get down ourselves. Think I'm not driven. I'm not. Whatever. Yeah, you are. But over here, to use the vernacular of my book, you're out of alignment. You may not know what you really want, and you probably don't know why on either case. And something's out of alignment, one or the other or both. That's why it's not working. Which was me, me back when, you know, success here, success here, success here, and then boom over here. And I have again, finances. I sabotage so many business things and finances because of what I would call a hidden drive.

So how does the listener get in alignment?

Read my book and sounds, you know, self serving there, but that's what I wrote it for because it is difficult and we get a lot of, you know, a lot of counsel on set your goals. And when I see that and I see it's it works for some people. Well, so many people don't really, really use that word, align with that because they don't know what they want. And it sounds like I'm supposed to find this holy grail calling or purpose. And so I separated out and I really drew from Zig Ziglar's Wheel of Life. Anybody can look that up. Type in Zig Ziglar, Wheel of Life. And lots of people have different variations, but he has seven spokes. I pretty much use that. I'm a little liberal with how I use it. But let's go through these areas of life and look at what you want, want and why. And now let's get to. I feel like my next book needs to be like the five levels of why. Because every why we give, you know, we got to go about five levels below that to get to the real why. So we give the face value why. And what is amazing is how often people haven't really clarified what they really want. The emphasis on they what they really want. It seems all elementary when I speak it. It seems elementary. Well, most common sense is not that common these days. I mean we've got all the information that we need to be the healthiest, wealthiest nation in the world. We're the sickest, fattest, saddest nation in the world. It's not working. So over here on goals and knowing what we want, we really don't. We take the cultural expectations and adopt ourselves to those. And it's not what we want. I really work on the book. So much of kind of a hidden agenda is to give you permission to question what the hell you really want just for you and you alone. And I really try to separate other people out of that. Take away your parents, your spouse, your friends, your culture, whatever. What do you you want not to minimize that social pressure is real. I struggle with it too, or I care about it, but man, to look at what do you really want and question that and then understand, okay, this is what I think I want. Okay, let's filter that through. Why? Why do you want that? Well, I think it's because this. Let's go a little deeper. I think it's this. And for a lot of people it's like, holy crap, no wonder I don't enjoy X or no wonder I really enjoy this. And it's just amazing how blind we. We me too, so often are.

Oh my God, it's so true. And I think for everybody it's a little different. And that's why I love the seven spokes that you broke it down into. Because I know for me, and I'm just gonna read like. And again, this is what hit me or was so relevant to me where for sure there'll be other people that are gonna have different chapters that are gonna really hit that. But for me, this really spoke to me. Page 48 in your book if Faith in a Greater Power is cited by 99 out of 100 of the world's most influential people, it would seem we should give that as much attention as we do their teachings on business and success as it speaks beyond what they do and gets to the root of why they do it. This was such a powerful portion of the book for me as a child that grew up and you talk a lot about our environment growing up and really identifying. You know, I grew up in a Catholic broken family, which there was a lot of lack and a lot of struggle and life was hard and it was very much religion based, not spiritual based, which again for everyone listening right now, this is not a religious book. He's not pushing religion. He's bringing up the concept of faith, which is so important, so powerful in my life right now and so timely for me that it really helped me reflect back to the way I had been thinking because of the way I grew up, which I really just separated myself from and basically tried to forget about and not acknowledge. But your book really made me think about it and see it in a very different way, which empowered me. I feel like empowers me so much more now. So I'm sure other people had an eye opening moment too from this portion of the book.

Thank you, Heather. It comes back to values and to what you said earlier. That's what I saw again amongst my guests and experience with myself, you know, with other people is the people who had. I'm going to call it. I've been playing with it lately, you know, B.I.G. s success not just little s, which is success in one area of life with, you know, catastrophe everywhere, but just the big success that we all want. The peace and joy and fulfillment across the board with those people. They knew what they valued in most areas of life. And even that, yes, spirituality, which is a place that a lot of people don't really want to hit on. Thank you for saying that. Not religiosity, not a religion. It's not pushing one thing, but just saying spiritually. And I'm going to say at the core of that, I define spirituality. And I think spirituality is defined by devotion and belief in something greater than just you and you alone. And if that's, you know, the environment or, you know, or humanity or whatever, that's okay. We don't have to define that to begin with. You may want to do that later. But a devotion, something bigger. I saw that value even amongst my guests, which, when you were on the show, you know, we do a four part series. The second part is your value. What drives you? So what drives Heather? And we talked about spirituality right off the bat, and you would just light up. He said, that's such a big part of my life. And I'm saying, I kind of see that with everybody I have on the show, even if they're. They may not be going to church, they may not attest to a certain religion, but what fires them up is a devotion to something greater than self. That's the essence of spirituality. So you had to put that in the book of, well, everybody I have on the show. Every. These successful people put value on that. Probably a good value to consider how you. What you think about it, what you want out of that and why, and not get caught up. I think especially with spirituality, not to go down that route, but most people devalue that today because they know what they don't want. So they just get rid of all of it as opposed to saying, okay, but what do I want? And so, yeah, that we can talk forever on that. It's a big one to me. I think without that devotion to something greater than it's devotion just to yourself, man, I don't see it working out well.

It's too much of a struggle. And the struggle doesn't need to be that hard is what I've learned. And for anyone listening right now, that's saying, yeah, but I'm just not there yet. Curious, but not there. Then start putting yourself in rooms and environments with people who are there. I was big into this with business, right? Like, I'm like, I Always want to be near the billionaire. I want to be near the person that just bought and sold this huge company, but I wasn't thinking of it. In these other aspects of life, I want to be near the people who have great marriages so I can start learning, like, what are their strategies there that I don't understand. Understand it to be spiritually evolved. Who are those people that I can get in an environment with? And whenever you get the chance, immerse, people don't have to be quote, unquote, successful just in revenues. And I did believe that for a long time. But you do such a good job in this book of laying out all of these different aspects that do. I'm certainly not there yet, but now it gives me more of that roadmap of, okay, here's an area in my life which I haven't figured out. Like, these are some of the questions I need to start getting. Getting curious about and surrounding people who have found success in that niche, in that environment, in that area of their life.

And it just.

It's helpful. It's humbling, but it's helpful because it's empowering you to improve your life.

Totally. I mentioned it before. Dan Buettner, he wrote the Blue Zones. I've talked about that book, and it's interesting every time I bring his name up. I have never pursued him to be on the show. And I talk about.

Now you have to. I mean, that's crazy.

I know. I. Because I love the concept. I rely on it so much. And yeah, Heather, I find myself more and more going after groups. Well, you and I just talked about it. I'm talking about joining a podcasting network that you're a part of. And some of it is because, oh, gosh, I'm seeing this and this and this happen. I want that so I can go try to emulate it. I can try to learn from it, which is valid, or I can just freaking join it. And at this point, I just want to do that. And I spend time going after groups of people to immerse myself, as you're talking about, with these groups who are succeeding or even just they're pursuing success here, they may not have all arrived at, man, that is their hunger. I want to be with those people because it gets my mind on correctly. I don't know if there's anything more powerful, honestly, than that. Just what you said, just surrounding yourself with the right people, it may be the most powerful. Either way, if you want to go downhill, surround yourself with those people. If you want to go Uphill. This is elementary stuff, and we're all succeeding or dying from it.

Well, it's helpful too, from a contrast perspective that I realize, no, I used to beat myself up for. Like, if you. If I was having this conversation with you, I'd hang up and say, gosh, now when I look back on my life, I see why I wasn't spiritually evolved, for I was around people that didn't care at all about spiritual. It was knife on the radar. But instead of beating myself up, I can look back now objectively and say, wow, things weren't that easy. Doors weren't just opening for me back then. Look who I was spending time with back then. I remember some of the struggles those people had. I was taking those on and seeing that as normal.

Right.

Cause that was the environment I was putting myself love. And I was seeing that, yes, life is hard and. And no, there isn't something bigger than us here at work. And then I cut to the people I'm surrounding myself with now, what I'm learning from them and how differently. Right? Like, again, back to grace. I give myself grace now because of books like this that are so empowering to really give you that perspective. And yes, all the information is out there in the world and it's coming at us 9 million miles an hour. But your book specifically breaks it down, down in such a simplistic way that I feel like every single person who reads this book is going to take something in a perspective shift that's going to really empower them to say, this is the area I could tweak. Now, are you hearing some of those stories from your readers?

Yes. Can I talk about the book real quick? I think you and I. I think you and I talked about this. So for everybody, here's some inside behind the scenes, I guess, on writing a book. So I knew the concept, concept of this that we're talking about, and I put it down and I delivered it to my publisher, McGraw Hill, one of the biggest publishers out there. And they said, kevin, we're still with you on the concept. The book is crap. Honestly, they didn't use that word. But to me, that's what I heard. They said, the book is. It just doesn't roll at all. And what I came to realize is, okay, I write a lot, but I am not an author. I've never done this before. And so I went in essence, to school and looked at how do you structure a book? And I should have known. I kind of thought that I would just know this through osmosis. Of being such a prolific reader. Apparently that wasn't the case. And so I went and looked at structure of the best selling books out there and I literally bought stuff and just started studying it. Atomic habits, which is, I don't know, I can't remember the last self help or, you know, non fiction book that sold more than it has and is still selling. But Atomic habits and Jensen Ciro's you're a badass and Mark Manson's subtle art of not giving in F and what? And I started studying them, reached out and got some help from people. There's one lady in particular who had kind of diagrammed James Clear's atomic Habits. He says, look what he did here. He gave you the story, he pointed out what the point is, he told you how to do it, he reiterates the point and he blah, blah, blah, dude, I just followed that. I reread the book, sent it back to my literary agents and they said, whoa, dude, you're tracking now so well that let's ramp it up even more. And so I'm with a publisher, publisher, I got an advance, they have editors. I should be taken care of. Instead I went, took my own money or took that, you know, the advanced money. And I paid. I actually paid the lady who acquired and edited Jensen Ciro's book, you're a badass and paid to have it revamped even more. So yeah, I did put a lot of effort into that structure. It wasn't my own brilliance at all. It was looking and going, okay, what's working? How about if we model that I should have done that day one, but. But I let my own arrogance honestly get in the way. I thought, nah, I'm just going to whip this thing out, it would be awesome, you know, and that was not the case. So a total rewrite. And then, I mean, after that, the edits and revisions were nuts. So yeah, what's there today? Oh my gosh. The help that I had from other people, that I studied, from people I paid, from my publisher, from my literary agents is huge. To get a book to the point of, oh, now it follows the pattern that people want to see and so it'll resonate with them. So thank you for the structure. I did put a lot of work into it. It wasn't out of my own brilliance at all.

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But you just brought up so many great points. Number one, success leaves clues, right? So we need to look for it. Number two, you need to invest in yourself. You reinvent, invested the money that you got right back into finding the people who had already been where you wanted to go and showing you how to get there. You know, this is, I agree with you. When I wrote my first book, I had no idea what the structure was. I invested and hired somebody who actually knew how to do it right. So investing in yourself always, always pays. Okay, so when we look at the book and the different concepts that you've broken it down to in what drives you. One of the areas that, that I loved other than just the faith side was what drives your relationships. You are who you love. I found that really interesting and unexpected. Can you talk to us a little bit about that portion?

That one? That was humbling, honestly. You know, Heather, as I looked at that and I have, you know, as you talked about, I have nine kids, you know, talk about drive, you know, we had no plan, man. We're just driving. I don't know where that came along, you know, that so many kids in such a big family. But, but relationships, I mean, it's so pithy to say, you know, relationships are what matter most. And I on this concept, I just had this thought, I like to play mind games with myself to kind of change my paradigm. And I thought, you know, what if I woke up tomorrow? The world's just like it is. It's not some dystopian thing. The world's just like it is, but there's just nobody there. I like solitude. Shouldn't that be okay, man, I'll just, you know, I'll read and I'll write and I'll do it. I thought, no, there's. What's the purpose? I mean, what am I going to do? Go eat sushi till I explode and drive a Ferrari around a racetrack and go swimming? I just, I. I'm done, man. I just kill myself. Literally. That's the thought that I had. There's. And it just elevated the holy smacks, man. Relationships. I mean, that is. At the end of the day, there was a guy I used or I got into one time, Thomas Merton, he was a monk and real famous monk. I don't think he's living anymore. And I read some story or somebody got me reading on his stuff. And, you know, he spent like, like, I'm totally exaggerating the point, but, you know, three years in a cave, just him and God. I'm thinking, really, who's that serving? Is what I thought. Who's that serving? Go get married, have some kids, serve some people, go, you know, serve at the homeless shelter. Come on. Well, later on, then it was kind of during the same time of this, you know, kind of morbid thing of nobody's on earth I read about happened to stumble on him. Well, during that time, in essence, you know, while he is on his own, he wrote 54. Four books. I mean, the guy took what he had and he wanted to impart to other people, and he did. And he had relationships. Again, I'm exaggerating the point, but he did. I mean, we want to have impact and influence and have meaning to other people. And so bringing that, you know, relationships. And again, coming to the people that I've seen that I revere as having true success, their devotion to others, to relationships, is primary. Doesn't mean that they've all knocked it out of the park. There's lots of people who have divorced in the past, maybe have two divorces in the past, or who have kids that are alienated, that have been or are alienated. It doesn't mean that all the relationships are perfect, but, man, that is what matters to them, even as they stumble and bumble along, as we all do. So it's not that. And I think I used to kind of. I missed the point of relational devotion even in that Heather thought, oh, well, if your devoted relationships are all perfect, right? Well, no, so don't put that as a pressure there. But it's still the devotion kind of back to the spirituality, a devotion to something greater, to self and the devotion to other people that it really, at the end of the day, is what drives everybody. When I hit on Back to spirituality, there are plenty of people on the show who, when I ask that question initially, and I'm talking, you know, somebody who's, you know, got a YouTube video or a TED talk with 50 million views and they're toast to the town, and they're pretty happy. Sometimes I ask about spirituality and go, gosh, it's not a big focal point in my life. And they're almost a little uncomfortable. And I'll point out, yeah, but. But you've devoted your life to helping other people over here. And like, oh, yeah. What else is there? Like, that's. That's spirituality, you know, and. And again, it's relationships. And I see those as so hand in hand and so foundational. Long answer to your question, but obviously means a lot to me.

It obviously does. Now that you've gone through, Put yourself through all of these pieces, these practices, have you found that peace that you were so wanting to find a great.

Much more dramatically more. I think it'll always be a struggle for me, Heather, to find that I, you know, stopping and being present is not my natural go to my drive. I think you and I talked about this, you know, on the show, when I had you on the show, that I struggle with struggle. It's good and bad. It's a ying and yang. You know, it's a. I love the word tension. You know, it's not an either or, right, wrong, good, bad, whatever, but attention. And I love to produce things. I love to go and. And be busy and to have stuff. I love waking up. I so revere waking up in the morning curious and inspired. I would always rather get up and go after the things to have a day to wake up and go, oh, my gosh, I would just rather not even deal with the day. Get out of bed, whatever. It grieves me that people are in that place. And, I mean, I've seen that with, you know, family members, and I'm. I feel so privileged to be interested and curious and inspired, and I want that. That for people. And again, I love driven people, but I do want peace. I do find myself more and more with myself and with other people when it's just drive, drive, drive. I'm like, oh, my gosh, it's exhausting. Can we just, you know, chill? And so I've got teachers, I'm surrounding myself with people right now. I'm part of a. I've got a bunch of guys I'm involved with here. In Colorado and now nationally. I call it my adventure groups. But it's guys. Most of them are business owners for the most part. They've done well out there in work and stuff.

Stuff.

But they're athletes, so there's kind of a qualifying aspect and we go out and do these great adventures together. But they're so good. One of the guys who leads it just as big as the adventure is the tailgate. Afterwards, you almost feel like we just went out and annihilated ourselves for a day just so we could come back by the riverside. And he puts out the Hibachi Grill and the beers and the whatever. And now we've kind of broken things down and all of a sudden some dude's talking about his marriage or he's talking about his kids or he's talking about something says, man, I've never talked with anybody. He's about this, you know, before. And it's just a deep breath and it's just, let's just be. Let's just be. The doing is awesome, but without the being. I don't see peace, I don't see fulfillment. And I miss that a lot. So, yeah, I've grown and I am growing and that my drive is changing. Still drive, but not so much to the doing as to the being. I'm just redirecting it.

What do you think is so powerful about that group? It's. I'm so curious about it.

I.

Is it the marriage of movement, athleticism, bonding, vulnerability, making time, making yourself a priority? Like, what is that magic solution there?

That's a great question because it's really interesting. Heather. So I've got a buddy who started it here. He actually lives in my little town up in the mountains, but he's a real influential guy and an athlete, you know. So he's at the board meeting and you know, with his business and the billions of dollars, whatever, but he'd rather be over here. The last trip we did it sounds like it's supposed to be awesome. We went down a river on stand up paddle boards, you know, in white water and stuff. And he's the one guy on this giant blow up unicorn. You know, he just lives and loves life and he's a master at being. But to go out there, it is with people and it's not even. I mean, again, most of them are business owners. A lot of them have done really well, you know, financially. But that's not all of them. That's not the qualifying thing. It is as an athlete. We have set that up like you got to be able to come out, not not die. Whatever we're going to do, we're gonna surf, we're gonna go mountain climb, we're gonna go, whatever. I think you're gonna die. Don't go on that one. Like they do these crazy backcountry up in the Rockies here on skis. I'm just not that good of a skier. So it's kind of like, Kevin, don't come because we don't want to have to helicopter you out. So fair enough, man. So there's a qualifying thing there. So we all come together and there's a kindred spirit aspect of that. But you're also there because you know it's about something deeper. I just got invited to a national one and that is the point. Let's come out. It's a stupid distance up in the mountains. I think we're all going to die. But afterwards they say it's going to break you down. And the next day we're going to talk, we're going to get together, we're going to talk. It really levels the playing field. So you got one guy here with a multi billion dollar company and this guy, you know, who's doing something he enjoys. I know one guy recently, he was just, gosh, he leads the police force and something, some high level special forces nuts stuff. But we're out here by the river to get together. We're all equal. And it is so incredible. And you find people that are so hungry to come together, we don't do that. We're so isolated these days. So to come together with kindred spirits, with some aligned values, back to that. I think you find some aligned values and it feeds a hunger that I'm seeing Heather. And I think you see it too, that people have, because we are more and more isolated than ever. So to find it comes back around to what you talked about at a minute ago. Finding that blue zone of people. And it's maybe one of the most empowering, door opening, mind opening things that we can do. It's unreal.

I'm so with you. And yes, in person, like with real people, with real conversation is the place to be. All right, tell me, who did you write this book for?

Day one? It was for my older kids. That was the impetus. I, because I have had audiences or had an audience in different formats for a while and because I, I write, a lot of everything comes from writing. I had been at the table twice with big literary agents about writing a book, only to realize I'm just Not driven enough to devote myself to that right now. And I didn't. And this one, I realized pretty, pretty quickly. I wrote a page out to my kids, sent it to them. I started thinking about it more, and I did a solo podcast, which at the time, I never did solo podcast, but I just put it out there. And you know that you put podcasts out and everybody goes, oh, I love your podcast. Podcast. They don't often respond to a specific episode. And I had a good amount of people go, ooh, that was. So I thought, this has traction. I want to do this. I care about this. It was them initially, but then to look at a demographic, you know, the benefit of that looking at your brand and know who you're talking to, it was aspiring people. I'm not the best at, gosh, this is good business. Know how that, you know, but we'll say it for the sake of the audience. I'm not real good at awakening people to something necessarily. I'm good at helping direct, to use the word of alignment. People who are already pursuing a certain direction, they're already interested or, you know, inspired people. I can help direct and elevate that enough. If there's nothing there, it's just not good. I'm not that good at it. Now there are people that are, and we need those people. But I was more thinking about the people kind of like me, who had success in certain areas. Areas felt like they're putting the same effort in others and not having that success. And it's so frustrating and so disheartening. And I saw people burn out because of it. I saw them minimize themselves. I saw people quit or I'd see them just resign. You know, I'm just going to burn it out till I retire and I can get out of this crap. And it doesn't make sense. If you're having success over here, you can have success in the other places, but you're out of alignment. So that's really who I had in mind. It's the people who are having success, success, but, man, they're on the cusp of getting really frustrated and having some fallout or they're going to create more collateral damage over here. They're going to make the business work and go public and make a bunch of money, and they're going to have catastrophe behind that. Nobody wants that. We accept that culturally, but nobody wants that personally. Nobody says, okay, you can be number one, but you're going to lose all your relationships. I've not met somebody, I'm sure there is Somebody but I've never met who goes, yeah, that's cool, I'm good at that. No, nobody that. We do it, but we never agree to it. So that's why I had mine.

Where can everyone find what drives you and where can they find you?

The book what drives you can find that anywhere. But most people tune into my show, so it's, yeah, self helpful with Kevin Miller and you can find it wherever. And we put out four episodes a week. And again, it is unique. And I'd say, again, it's brilliant, but it's just what I wanted. So for me to learn, well, I need more than one shot. So I need to read Heather's book, I need to study Heather's. I need to take out the key points and they need to sit with Heather and go, all right, tell me more about that. Help me understand that. Oh, that's such a great point. Will you unpack that a little bit more? And then I want to know about you. So that's part two is, you know, what do you value what drives Heather? And then I talk about you with somebody else. I bring on a co host for part three and have them listen to the show I did with you, you know, with my guests, and say, okay, what rang out to you? And we talk about it brings out another perspective. And then, and this is so great for me, and I culminate it. So part four is me going, okay, I literally go back through it all now. What stood out to me, what keeps repeating itself in my head? And I write that down and I may come out with, okay, the eight key lessons I learned from Heather and her message. And so I'm having to think about them myself. And then I just kind of make bullet points. I sit here in front of the camera. It's only solo when I do. And I think, okay, so the things she said about X man, I'm grappling with that. I want to learn that. That's hard for me. And so I think through it myself. By the time I'm done with that, I've learned a lot. And then it comes up in the next show. Then I should do a show with Hala Taha. And I think, yeah, that's what Heather talked about in her book overcome your villains that keeps chewing on my head. So there's the show self helpful. And that's why I love it because I'm sitting there. I almost want to change it to come join Kevin's therapy sessions. That'd be relevant too.

Well, guys, listen, here's the thing. You want to be around good people. Kevin is a great person. You got to check out his show. Get the book. What drives you. I love, love the structure. I love the format, and I love that he's literally taking the tips and tricks from the brightest minds out there directly from his show. Kevin, I'm so proud of you with the work you're doing. I'm so grateful for it all. Thank you so much for the work you do.

Hey, thank you. I am grateful to be in a blue zone with you right now.

You better get that blue zone guy on your show, or I'm going to go get him for you.

Let's. Let's do it. We both get him on our show. Okay. Let's go after it.

All right, done and done, guys. Until next week, figure out what drives you, get the. Get the book, check out Kevin, and I'll be back here creating confidence with you. Until next time. Take care. I decided to change that dynamic. I couldn't be more excited for what you're gonna hear. Start learning and growing. Inevitably, something will happen. No one succeeds alone.

You don't stop and look around once in a while. You could miss it.

Come on this journey with me.