#357: Mastering Negotiations with Challenging Personalities: Conquer Narcissistic Tactics with Rebecca Zung, Esq. Top 1% Attorney, Narcissist Negotiation Expert, & Bestselling Author

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Hi, and welcome back. I'm so glad for you to meet our guest yet again this week, we've got Rebecca Zung. She's the top 1% of attorneys in the nation, having been recognized by US News as one of the best lawyers in America. She's also a globally recognized narcissism negotiation expert. She's got more than 35 million views on YouTube in the last two years. And creator of the Slay Negotiation Method. She's the author of this upcoming book that's amazing, Slay the Bully, how to Negotiate with a Narcissist and Win. I really needed that book a long time ago. And two bestselling books, Negotiate like youe Matter, the Surefire Method to Sleep, Step up and Win. She's also written Breaking Free, a step by step divorce guide for achieving emotional, physical and spiritual freedom. Rebecca's perspectives are in high demand by television and print outlets and she's been featured in Extra, Forbes, Huffington Post, Newsweek, Time, Dr. Drew, Ed Mylet's podcast, among others. Rebecca's podcast, negotiate your Best Life is ranked in the top 5% of all podcasts globally. She, along with in and out burger owner Lindsay Snyder Ellingson, is also the founder of a 501c3 Slay legal aid, which provides legal aid to those in need. Rebecca, thank you so much for being here with us today.

Thank you so much for having me. It is always so fun to be with you. I absolutely love hanging out with you and it was so fun to hang out with you not that long ago with our dear friends, the Gordons, who I absolutely love too.

I know that was so. It's always so much more fun once you get to know somebody and real life. So it's going to be a blast getting to sit here with you today and get into slay. So I have some basic questions that I'd love For you to cover for us first, because you're really one of the first people that even opened my eyes to narcissism. It wasn't something that. I know it's a lot of your world, but in my world, I didn't really understand it. Can you talk to us a little bit about what narcissism is?

Yeah, it's such a great question, because I can tell you that I practiced law for more than 20 years and didn't even know what it was. I mean, I knew people were throwing around the word, but, you know, it was like, okay, whatever, big eye roll. And I think a lot of times the judges do the same thing. And I think, you know, we hear the word so often, but we really don't really know what it actually is. And so I got to do a deep dive into the research of it. But I can tell you, even though in the book I give you the DSM 5 definition, what I like to do is give people a layperson's definition. And that is it is a spectrum. And all of us sort of have different degrees of it as well. But as you get further and further toward narcissistic personality disorder, you get more and more and more of the traits of it. And that is, it's a person who feels, and I say feels because we're all inherently worthy, but they don't feel any sense of self worth inside. And so they feel like they have to get all of their value from external sources to try to fill this feeling of emptiness that they have inside of them. And it's like this black hole. It's like a sieve that can never be filled. And so they get it from really what I call two sources of narcissistic supply. I call it diamond level supply and coal. Coal level supply. So diamond level supply is how they look to the world, which is the celebrity friends, the big houses, the money, the big bank accounts, all of that, the window dressing, and then what I call coal level supply, which is degrading people, devaluing people, controlling people, making people feel small by elevating themselves, pushing people down by elevating themselves, manipulating people, that sort of thing.

Where do narcissists come from? Is there, like a theme across that they all had abusive parents, or, like, how do they develop into narcissists?

Yeah, that is such a great question, because I actually dove deep into the research of this in doing my book, and I found this part to be actually one of the most fascinating pieces because I love to dive into science of things I love this whole thing about how the brain works and neuroscience, science, and, you know, I love everything about quantum law and all of that. So, you know, this was so fascinating to me. And of course it comes from trauma and, you know, like a lot of things with us do, right? And, you know, so it could actually be from neglect or it could be abuse, but it comes from trauma in childhood, and it comes from continuous types of trauma. So when we as humans are in a situation where we feel like we have to survive. So, you know, it could be any kind of situation, we go into fight or flight. And that's when our brains emit chemicals into our systems, adrenaline, that sort of thing. Right. Same thing happens with children, but when it happens continuously with children, it actually causes arrested development in the limbic system part of their brain. And so when that happens, while their prefrontal cortex, part of their brain, their thinking system, part of their brain, continues to develop, that limbic system, that emotional center part of their brain actually does not develop as it should. And so when they are presented with situations as adults where they feel like they need to survive, they become triggered. And it doesn't necessarily feel rational or reasonable to other people, but it does to them. So it could be an eye roll, it could be a tone of voice, it could be nothing, it could be, you know, what the hell, that part of their brain becomes triggered, and it's a snap of a finger. It is black to white, literally. It's actually a phenomenon called splitting. And then that part of their brain becomes activated. And then that's what you're now interacting with that limbic system part of their brain. And so you go to negotiate with them, when you go to interact with them, that is now what you're dealing with. And it's called narcissistic injury. And so sometimes they don't even remember what they do during this period of time. Sometimes they're certainly not acting rationally or reasonably. And so they will actually take themselves down to take you down. So that is the whole fascinating piece of it. And that's why you cannot negotiate with them like you would regular, reasonable people.

Wow, that is so eye opening to hear and makes a lot of sense. Is it likely that everybody listening to the show right now knows a narcissist?

Oh, yes. So here's the really mind blowing statistic about this. So what the data shows is that 15% of the population actually either has narcissistic personality disorder, which is 6.9% of the population, or has a personality disorder that lacks Empathy, which is antisocial personality disorders. You lump all the rest of the other personality disorders that lack empathy. Those are actually disorders that are classified in the DSM 5. Now, this is all the way to the end of the spectrum, mind you. So you think about, this is a spectrum. So that's 15% of the population. Now, if you think about, these are people that don't go into the doctor's office. These are people that don't go, hey, I think I'm going to go sit for a test today, right? No, this does not happen. And mind you, it's a scope, it's a spectrum. So toward the end of the spectrum, you're going to have more and more and more of these traits, more and more and more of these tendencies, right? And if each one of these people emotionally abuses just three people in their lifetimes, you're talking about 158 million Americans or 3.4 billion people on the planet. So, yeah, that's nearly half the population. And the likelihood of it just being three is probably pretty small.

Thank goodness that you're arming us with the knowledge, because I know for me firsthand, I didn't know what a narcissist was, and I was very much being bullied by one and dealing with one. And it's so helpful now to have this roadmap, to be able to have tools, to actually be able to deal with it. What are some just general examples of narcissistic behavior in the workplace so that our listeners can say, okay, I know who this person is.

Well, they start off extremely, extremely charming, all of them, whether it's in a business situation or a personal situation, a professional, whatever it is, because they use mirror neurons. So they actually become exactly what it is that you want to see. They know how to become you. They know how to become exactly what you want. They come on extremely strong. So it's 40 emails a day. It's exactly what it is that you want to see. If you want to have professional contacts, they've got them. If you want to get married, the next day is happening, let's meet your kids. It's the whole thing. It's almost all consuming right away. And if you're seeing red flags, they're extremely adept at explaining them away, at knowing exactly what to say to bat them away, to have an answer for them. I mean, they're extremely charismatic. It takes your breath away almost. But what they want to do is get, get to that next level as quickly as possible because they want to lock you in. So that they can start making withdrawals. This is all part of the deposit process. They want to start making withdrawals as fast as possible. So because as soon as they get to that next level, they turn off that faucet almost right away you start to see that shift in the wind almost immediately. Almost immediately.

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How did you figure this out? Was this during negotiation processes for you at work as a lawyer?

No, I actually had a narcissistic business partner. So what happened for me, and it's interesting because I say that I learned this from a narcissistic business partner and which I did. But I feel like in some ways this whole journey of my life has been a confluence of events that has brought me to this point. And I feel like God has sort of set me up for this whole journey, my whole life because I was bullied as a kid for being Asian. And I remember sitting on the playground and feeling completely voiceless, you know, and the kids would come up and like hold their eyes back and you know, stuff like that and say things to me. And I remember just sitting there and not saying anything and feeling powerless and feeling voiceless. And you know, I mean, I grew up in the 70s and 80s and you know, it wasn't a time where parents marched into the school and said anything. It was just like, you know, I was a latchkey kid, you know, I mean, my parents were working, they had stuff to do, they weren't taking care of me, whatever. I mean, my breakfast in the morning was like lucky charms, and I was lucky to have it. And, you know, I mean, that was the way we grew up. And so it wasn't a time for talking about bullying or anything like that. And so I felt voiceless. I felt powerless in those days. And so I grew up. I became a lawyer. I advocated on behalf of others, and I became a very good lawyer. And then I merged my practice. In 2017, 2018, I became business partners with somebody who turned out to be a covert narcissist. And it was a peer. It was somebody who I didn't expect, you know? And I ended up not saying anything, and I ended up. This person seemed very nice on the outside, and everybody loved this person. And all of a sudden, all those feelings of being bullied came flooding back to me. I found myself feeling voiceless, powerless, and I found myself feeling traumatized again after I had built this massive national practice where I was representing billionaires and celebrities and all this stuff. And I thought I had long passed all of that. And that's really when somebody said to me, oh, that person is a covert narcissist. That was when I was like, what is that? And that was when I dove into this whole thing and started learning about narcissism. And that's when I started applying what I was learning about narcissism to my cases and started seeing movement in my cases in 2019. And I was also learning about YouTube and funnels and all of that at the same time. And I did one video on how to negotiate with a narcissist in January of 2020. And I thought, oh, okay, I see, like, 700 views here. All of a sudden, I'm gonna go ahead and create a course around that. I'm gonna have it go live in March. And then all of a sudden, Covid hit, and the rest is history. I mean, I had 300 subscribers and January of 2020 on my YouTube channel. And. Yeah. And now Crazy Ride.

Clearly, this topic needed to be delved into. And clearly people had a thirst for this knowledge because so many of us just didn't even know what it was. You mentioned covert narcissist. Can you elaborate a little bit on what that means?

Yeah. I mean, to me, it is the absolute worst type of narcissist, because this is the type that everybody thinks is so nice. The world thinks that they're wonderful. They can be humanitarians. They can be doctors, lawyers, preachers. They can be the nicest of people to the world. Everything they do has an element of plausible Deniability around it. They couch the way they do things in terms of care, you know, I'm so concerned about Susie. I'm just so concerned about her drinking, you know, I'm just worried, worried about her, you know, And Susie probably doesn't have any problem with drinking whatsoever, but it's a way to smear Susie. But everybody thinks that this person is so nice. So now they're worried about Susie and her drinking. They're like evil in a way. I mean, it's just inadvertently leaving people off of email chains. And then all of a sudden, a person is not at a meeting and oh, how come you're not at the meeting? And oh, I thought I put you on that email chain. Oh, sorry. Like that sort of thing. Oh, I'm. All of a sudden they're better friends with somebody. That person just happened to call me Rebecca.

What's the difference then between. Because when you're saying these things. First of all, I completely know people like this, sadly. But, you know, what comes to mind for me is passive aggressive behavior. Part of being a narcissist is they leverage passive aggressive behavior.

A covert narcissist. So the COVID narcissist is much, much more passive aggressive, you know, whereas the overt or grandiose narcissist is the one that will come in, take over, take over the room. I demand the best table. I'm the greatest at this, you know, why don't I have this happening to me? That's your garden variety narcissist. That's the one that everybody thinks of as a narcissist. Your male misogynist CEO type that everybody thinks of as a narcissist. Right. Whereas to me, I think the COVID narcissist is much smarter in a lot of ways and much, much more dangerous in a lot of ways. Because everybody thinks they're so nice. And yet you're feeling like shit all the time. But, you know, because you're like, I don't know if I should say anything. Everybody thinks they're so nice. But you know, you can't sleep at night. It's like death by a thousand cuts. It's just awful.

It truly is. And that's exactly the kind of narcissist I was dealing with. And it truly. I mean, you can't sleep, you're losing your hair, you're having back issues suddenly out of nowhere, and it's debilitating. Let's get into some of the strategies that you share in slay the bully, specifically the slay method. And what can you share with us, with everyone listening right now, how they can manage dealing with a narcissist?

Yeah, the slay method is strategy, leverage, anticipate, and then the Y is you. And it's absolutely the best method that I have ever come up with because it is how to basically shift the power dynamic with narcissists. And I. I would say, step one, don't run. Step two, make a U turn. Step three, break free. And so within that paradigm, I've come up with slay. And I've literally sold over 10,000 of my slay programs to people all over the world in the last three years. And I have so many, so many Testimonials. And with 40 million views on YouTube, like, I always tell people, this is not theory. It absolutely works. So what strategy is, is you build your vision first. So you create your vision. Where is it that you want to go? So many times you're like, on the defensive. You're like, oh, my God, I'm so, like, paralyzed. You feel paranoid. Paralyzed. And I, believe me, I know. And I tell people this because if it could happen to me, like, I've been. You heard my bio. And I don't say this, you know, to brag or whatever. Look at Heather. She's like, badass of all badasses, so powerful and so brilliant. If it can happen to her, if it happened to me, it could happen to anybody. Like, they're really effing good at what they do, you know, these people. So don't ever feel bad. They don't attach themselves to you because you have so little value. They attach themselves to you because you have so, so much. They're really, really good at what they do. So don't ever feel bad about that. Right? I mean, they just really good at what they do. So just get over the blame and shame and just start from where you are. Wherever you are is the jumping off point. And create a vision for where it is that you want to go. And then you have to create action steps. Create action steps. What kind of narcissist are you dealing with? Create a plan. In my Slay program, I show you how to do that. In the book, I show you how to do that. And then leverage, how you build leverage is you figure out what it is that is their diamond level supply. And then their co level supply is manipulating you, jerking you around, all of that. And you have to threaten a source of supply that's more important for them to keep than the supply that they get from jerking you around. And that is how you get rid of. Of them.

An example of that, because that's so interesting to me.

Yeah, so it's through your documentation. So it's through emails, it's through witnesses, it's through your journaling, it's through text, it's through social media. A lot of times. The one thing about narcissists is that they always are sloppy. You know, they are sloppy because of what I was saying earlier about the fact that they are impulsive and they are liars and the things that they do. And so a lot of times people are so afraid of them, but the bottom line is that they're just big bullies and they're way more afraid of you than you are of them. And so if you keep good records, if you document them and you are very methodical about how you keep timelines and things like that, that will come back to bite them. And that is how you can create amazing, amazing leverage against them. And I'm talking about leverage that you can use not just in a court of law, but in negotiations, in a work situation, in any kind of a situation. And it definitely works. And by the way, narcissists don't just want to win. They want to continue to be able to manipulate you. And that's why they constantly move goalposts. So if you don't figure out a way to threaten a source of supply that's more important for them to keep than the supply that they get from jerking you around, you'll never get rid of them, ever. So this is what you have to do. So that's leverage. And then anticipate. Anticipate is anticipate that they're going to try to bait you, they're going to try to trigger you, they're going to try to get under your skin. So first of all, never defend yourself. Never defend yourself. You want to. When they attack you, when they see things about you that aren't true, you want to go, what you think that that is exactly what they want you to do. You don't need to respond. You don't. You just don't. Because cream always rises to the top and the truth always comes out. And you just need to not say anything, because when you respond, you are giving them supply, for one thing, and you're just going down into the mud with them. So if they send you some big long email or whatever, you can pick through and see if there's something that you absolutely have to respond to. But you don't need to defend yourself, don't so you know I always say never explain, justify or overshare when you want more.

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Brevity is a superpower, sister, for sure. And it puts you in a position of power. Not them. It's so good.

So true. There was this lawyer back in Naples that we used to, like, laugh at, but it was. He was the best. Like, he used to write back when we actually used to write letters on letterhead. People would write all these long letters, these other lawyers, and he used to actually write these letters back, and it was so powerful. He would write, dear so and so. No, sincerely yours.

I love it.

That's so good.

Okay. And so a is anticipate. That's what you were just walking us.

Oh, yeah.

And why.

Why is you so you on the offensive? Stay offensive. And then 100% of winning is your mindset. Your mindset. You have to believe that you can win 100%. You know, if you don't believe that you can win, nobody can help you. You and you alone define your value. You alone decide who you are. And, you know, once you decide, people will think what you tell them to think. You have this presence. You have this power. And people will decide based on what you tell them. And it makes such a huge difference. So if you walk in with power, if you walk in with purpose, people will know. And, you know, the more you shrink, the more you're afraid. They feel that. They feel that energy. They feel that power. And so you have to decide that you're a winner doesn't come the other way around.

No, definitely not. When do you know? Okay, this is a situation. I just need to leave. Whether it be I need to get a divorce, end a relationship, or quit a job, or when do you know I need to dig in and manage this?

Well, you can tell by how they're treating you, obviously. Right. I mean, if it doesn't feel good, then you know it doesn't feel good. You can tell by the pit in your stomach. Have you ever heard the Heart Math Institute? Have you ever heard of HeartMath? Yes. Yeah. So your heart is actually 20 times faster than your brain. So your intuition is actually right, usually. Probably all the time. So listen to that. Listen to that. There's actually coherence meditations that you can do. And so just really getting into coherence about that and really knowing that if it doesn't feel good, you know what it feels like. If you've been in a conversation with somebody and walk away from that and you're feeling uplifted, you feel good, you feel better, and you know how your gut feels after you've been with people, oh my God, I feel so much better. Or if you've been with people or you've been in that situation, you just don't feel good. Every time you walk away, you just feel not good. Right. Like pitting your stomach, your gut is like, you know, on fire or whatever it is that the hair on the back of your neck just doesn't feel good, you know? You know, you guys know. And so you know, your soul is probably speaking to you and telling you. And if you're listening, you know the answer. But sometimes you argue with the red flags yourself, right? You know, sometimes you yourself will say, oh, you know, he had a bad childhood, he had a bad day at work, or whatever. You yourself defend it. And you know, listen to that, listen to that. If you're on the Internet searching for narcissism, it's probably not a good sign.

If you're searching for your videos on YouTube, this is. You need this book now. You need to protect yourself, people for sure. Especially knowing how many narcissists there are out there now. It is really mind boggling.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

How did you end up escaping your narcissist?

Oh, this is actually a very good story. I actually was on vacation with my family. It was July of 2019, so it was only four years ago. And, and I was in Maui at the top of Mount Haleakala at sunrise. Have you ever done that? And it's so beautiful. And my daughter, who was 17 at the time, I was with my daughter and my husband, we get up at sunrise and it's like. And I hate getting up early in the morning, but you get up at like 2:30 in the morning. We went with these friends and you go from like 85 degrees and sunny and beautiful to like 30 degrees up there. But it takes forever. And you get up there and it's literally heaven on earth. It is so stunningly beautiful. Like, I can't even describe how gorgeous it is. And so you're up there and this Hawaiian guy starts singing this song and it's just so powerfully beautiful, spiritual. And my daughter goes, mom, it's like heaven on earth. And I said, it is, it is. And all of a sudden what am I thinking of? I'm thinking of that freaking narcissist. Because you know how it is. They get in your head, right? And in that moment, I thought, no, no, no, no, no. You do not get to be here. You do not get to be here at Heaven on Earth. That's it. I gotta be done. I'm done. I'm done with this. I'm done with you. I'm done with this whole situation. I gotta be done because I just had this, like, aha moment. Like, it's one thing to ruminate about a thing when I'm, like, in my bedroom or walking the dog or walking around my house, but, like, I cannot have this. This is ridiculous. And I just had this moment of clarity around every moment I give this person. I'm allowing myself to be a victim. And I'm not in creation mode, and I'm not in what God wanted me to be. And so I just thought, I gotta get out of this. And so I decided I'm gonna finish my book, Negotiate like you Matter, I'm getting out of this situation. And so I told her that I wanted to be out of that. And I thought, you know, I. I'll do it the right way and it'll be good and all of that. Well, of course, you know, could never be good with a narcissist, but that's a whole other story. It doesn't matter. It's done now. But I finished Negotiate like youe Matter and I sent it out for endorsements. And one of the people I sent it to was Robert Shapiro. And I don't even know him, but I get this email back that says, call me. And I'm like, okay. So I called him and he's like. He offers to write the foreword for the book, and I'm thinking, okay. And so, you know, magic starts happening for me because I created the space because I decided to be in creation mode. And, you know, after that, I started, you know, doing YouTube. And, you know, my whole life has changed since then because I decided to be in creation mode and not allow myself to be in victim mode anymore.

Guys, this is so powerful, what she's sharing with you right now. It is incredible. When I was fired, AKA the day I fired my narcissist from my life in so similar fashion, it was only a couple days later that Elvis Duran's team reached out and wanted me to come on the show. And then he convinced me to write a book. And then my book went number one and Trump Donald Trump on business biography list. On Amazon, all these incredible things in my life happened that were not happening previously. I was working very hard at my job, and sure, there were wins along the way, but nothing like what people. The change that occurs in your life when you get a narcissist out of it, that's like heaven on earth. Like you said, you move into creation mode. You move into a space that is so unlike the life that you were living. It is so necessary. I'm sure you've heard millions of stories of people having similar experiences.

Yes, exactly. And I had no idea what was in store for me at that point. I just knew that I was allowing myself to be in victim mode every moment. I gave that mental space to that person and I wasn't allowing it anymore.

I'm so proud of you. And thank goodness you did that because it had this ripple effect for you. Now, to help millions of people, tell me a little bit about your virtual event that you're doing on September 30th.

Yes. So I'm so excited about this because we are going to be doing a virtual book launch to celebrate everybody who wants to create this sort of change in their lives. It's totally free. And everybody who brings five friends will also get two previously unpublished chapters of my book. And we're going to be doing live giveaways there. And it's just going to be a fun way to celebrate. And we're also going to be kicking off my new mastermind there as well. And I'm just so excited because this is my way of saying to everybody, hey, if you are looking for a change in your life, if you're ready to break free from a toxic situation, a toxic relationship, whether it's professional, whether it's personal, and you are ready to create a new beginning and a new future, this is the time. So come join us on September 30th at 9am Pacific or noon Eastern. And I'm so excited to welcome you into our slay nation.

Slay nation. We need to slay the bullies. Be there September 30th.

Oh. So slaythebullylaunch.com I almost forgot to give the link. I'm so excited about the event. I almost forgot to give the link. So slaythebullylaunch.com is the link.

All right.

So everyone, I'll put the link in the show notes below. Meet us there September 30th. Slaythebullylaunch.com Rebecca, thank you so much for the work you're doing and for making this incredible creating this incredible book to help so many others.

Thank you. And thank you. You are so awesome. So awesome.

Right back at you, sister. All right, guys, see you September 30th. I'm going to make it my own again. I decided to change that dynamic. I couldn't be more excited for what you're going to hear. Start learning and growing. Inevitably, something will happen. No one succeeds alone. You don't stop and look around once in a while. You could miss it. Come on this journey with me.