#386: The 13 Things Mentally Strong Couples DON’T Do with Amy Morin Psychotherapist & Best Selling Author

It's not just that my partner has to change or that I have to do these things differently, but if we both build mental strength, our relationship would get better. And that that many people recognize too, like, there's value in strengthening my relationship. I think we get so caught up in today's world where people are focused on so many other things other than their relationship that we kind of forget to strengthen that area. So the fact that so many people were saying that, yeah, I was thrilled and surprised, but it really reinforced to me. This is the book I need to write.

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I'm ready for my close up. Hi, and welcome back. I'm so glad you're back here with me this week. Today we have a multiple Creating Confidence guests. She's been on. I think this is her third time on which the only person Amy, that's ever been on three times. Okay. Amy Morin is a licensed clinical social worker, instructor at Northeastern University and psychotherapist. She's the author of the international bestseller 13 Things Mentally Strong People Don't Do, 13 Things Mentally Strong Parents Don't do, and 13 Things Mentally Strong Women Don't Do. Amy is also the host of the popular podcast Mentally Stronger.

She.

She gave one of the most viewed TEDx talks of all time and was named the self help guru of the moment by the Guardian. She lives in Marathon, Florida, on a boat with her husband because she's a maniac. Amy, so glad you could be back.

Here with us today.

Thank you so much for having me back. It's always good to talk to you, Heather.

Yeah, except when I sound like I swallowed a frog. Thank you for bearing with me and for everyone listening. I've got a little bit of a cold, but thanks for hanging with me because this is a super important conversation. First of all, if you don't know who Amy is, you live under a rock, so get out from under the rock. I'm glad you're here, but if you could give everybody a little bit of backstory about how your first book came to be and how you sold millions of copies.

Sure. So I was a therapist in Maine, and, you know, life was good for a moment. And then my 20s, kind of like a bad country song. So I lost my mom when I was 23. She had a brain aneurysm. So it was very sudden loss. And then When I was 26, my husband died of A heart attack. And a few years after that, my father in law was diagnosed with terminal cancer. So it was like my twenties were just like one loss after another after another. One of the worst days of my life. I sat down and I wrote a letter to myself about what mentally strong people don't do. And I found it helpful. So I thought maybe somebody else would like it as well. And I put it on the Internet and I really thought like 5 people would read it, but 50 million people read it. One of them happened to be a literary agent who encouraged me to write a book. So that's how my book 13 Things Mentally Strong People don't do came into existence. And since writing that book, my readers have been like, hey, can you write a book for parents? Can you write a book for kids? Can you write one for women? And now it's been 10 years since I wrote that article. And six books later, here we are.

It's incredible. And for me, because I love this part of the story. First of all, super proud of you that you took so much pain and repurposed it into a helping and healing moment for so many millions of people. It's incredible. But I love the part of the story that this did not happen overnight. Everyone assumed the book sales would follow overnight success. But that isn't exactly what happened.

Was it with my article or my book? It was definitely not an overnight success. It sounds like it was when I tell the Reader's Digest version of the story. But I had written articles for years. None of them ever went viral. And the only reason I was writing articles was because I didn't have any money. When my husband died, I had like zero money to pay my bills. And as a therapist, you can only work so many hours a week. It wasn't like I could work 80 hours as a therapist. But freelance writing became a side hustle that kept the lights on because I was like, if I'm having a bad day, I don't have to write. But if I come home from my day job and I'm like, yeah, I want to do something else, I could sit down and write two or three articles in the evening. And, you know, I wrote thousands of articles over the years. None of them ever went viral. This was really the only one that was personal. But yeah, because so many people read that article, we kind of expected the book would do really well when it went on sale. And when the book first went on sale, like, it sold okay. But it was nowhere near an international bestseller or anything at the time. And it was A year and a half later that it finally hit the bestsellers list. Like, for a whole year and a half, it just sold. Okay. We didn't think I'd ever write another book. And I thought, well, that's kind of cool. I'm a therapist and I got to write a book. And, you know, we even had that conversation with my agent where she said, if you write another book, it's probably not going to be with the same publisher because sales are kind of flat. But got some unexpected press from a couple of different places. It sold off the shelves and hit the Wall Street Journal in the USA Today's bestseller list a year and a half later. And it was then that I quit my job and said, all right, I'm going to, like, really see what I can do with this. So I retired as a full time therap and said, what can I really do if I put all of those hours and energy into marketing the book what's possible, and then got the opportunity to write the second book and here we are.

Well, one of the things I want people to know is you work very hard at promoting and people believe that books just sell, you know, miraculously. And now that I've written to, I'm here to let you know, no, they don't miraculously just sell. And I've personally seen how hard you work, how much you travel, to do different shows, to lean into podcasts, to write articles, all to get that message out there. It isn't just as simple as flipping a switch.

It's not. And I didn't know that. Obviously. I had never even met an author when I first wrote the book, so I had no idea. And I thought, well, I have a publicist, there's a marketing team. And I really thought that was the publisher's job. It's really not. The publicists there have so many different books they're trying to promote. And just like anything else, like, you know your material better than anybody else. And I knew how to apply it to different things. So it was really about me getting out there and being on as many shows and writing as many articles as I could and talking to my own audience and building my social media to make sure that I was the one getting the message out.

Okay, share with us. The other part of the story I love is how somehow this book got into the hands of Rush Limbo.

And what happened that was the unexpected press a year later. So he had shared it on his radio show that it was Monday, and he said, we're going to talk about the 13 things mentally strong People Don't Do. And. And he ran out of time that day. And I had gotten a message from somebody that said, rush Limbaugh is talking about you. And I was like, really? And then Tuesday, he said, okay, today we're finally going to talk about it. The 13 things mentally strong People Don't Do. Well, he did that every day until Friday before he actually talked about the book. So I got a plug from him Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. Well, by about Wednesday, the book had sold out everywhere. And so I was in a panic because I thought, I can't even hit a bestsellers list because the book isn't on the shelves. And so I called my publisher and I said, let's do something, like, what are our options? And so we marked the E book price down as another extra promotion. And because I knew I was like, he's going to mention the book again and eventually he's going to get to the actual book. And he did. And it. I don't remember how many copies it sold, but it was enough to top the charts, several of the charts that week.

To me, I love that story so much because of the level of success that you have, because people think it happened overnight and because this wasn't planned, this wasn't some strategic, like, your neighbor knows father lived next door to Rush and you knew you were going to get to him. This was all so unexpected. What did that feel like when that moment actually happened and you knew, wow, this has a chance to actually get really big.

It was wild because, yeah, I didn't know anybody. Somebody said to me, in fact recently, like, oh, you didn't have anybody? You didn't have famous people endorse your book. I'm like, I didn't know any famous people. I didn't know any authors. Again, I lived in a town of 3,000 people in rural Maine, didn't know any of this. And so to hear that happen, it was really wild. And it was one of those reminders of, yeah, you never know. Just like, I had no idea the article could possibly go viral. I had no idea that that's all it would take. Just that one piece of media attention that was completely unexpected in a random place that that's what it would take to give my book this huge push again. So I know, and I know that that could happen again at any moment with any of my books. And I'm sure you've seen that happen when some mentions it on social media, unexpected push from somewhere, like, it makes a huge difference.

This is why every day should be exciting. You just never know when that next exciting miracle could come out of left field.

That's just it because, you know, we, like, pitched lots of people, we sent lots of people copies of the book. The vast majority of them you just never hear back from, Whether it's a TV show or, you know, a celebrity. Then sometimes just random, random things. Just like with the article. I mean, again, I was in one of the worst points of my life, and all of a sudden, this article made my entire life take this sharp left hand turn. You never really know what could be right around the next corner.

That's so true. So good. All right. But today I want to talk about your new book, 13 Things Mentally Strong Couples don't do, because this one's very different and so interesting. And I was reading some of the overview about the book, and I like some of the information that I was pulling out. I want to share some of the numbers that I saw. You interviewed over a thousand married individuals to learn about their thoughts on mental strength. First of all, you're a mental strength expert, right? So this is exactly what you do and what you know. But you dove really deep into this by interviewing a thousand married individuals to understand mental strength and how it affects a relationship. You found out that 74% of respondents said their relationship would likely improve if they worked on building mental strength. And 86% said they wanted to strengthen their relationship with their partners. This is kind of shocking that this many people want to improve that need to improve, or did you know that that was kind of the feedback you were going to get?

You know, I didn't know it was going to be that high. I thought, you know, a fair amount of people probably want to strengthen their relationship. And I thought probably half of them will say, yeah, if I were mentally stronger for my partner, were mentally stronger. But I was thrilled so many people recognized, yes, it's not just that my partner has to change or that I have to do these things differently, but if we both build mental strength, our relationship would get better. And that that many people recognize too, like, there's value in strengthening my relationship. I think we get so caught up in today's world where people are focused on so many other things other than their relationship that we kind of forget to strengthen that area. So the fact that so many people were saying that, yeah, I was thrilled and surprised, but it really reinforced to me, this is the book I need to write.

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It makes so much sense. You know, I remember having been in a long term relationship. I was actually engaged as a person at the time, thinking to myself, I was working on myself. I was working on mentally strengthening myself and the person, my significant other at the time wasn't doing that work. And Amy, I remember and I'm super interested in your professional opinion on this. I remember thinking, gosh, I should probably pull back from doing so much personal development because I'm distancing our relationship in some ways. Is that where a book like this can actually help bring people together instead of create more of a gap?

It is. So that's a common fear. In fact, there's a whole chapter in there about growing and changing and what to do if you're concerned, like I'm going to outgrow my partner or what if they don't catch up? Or I see a lot of people who are trying to motivate their partner to change. You're like dragging them along like, no, we need to be working on these things. But I really wanted to write the book too so that people could say like, what if you want to change and your partner doesn't? And maybe you'd like your partner's behavior to change. Because the truth is most people who walk into therapy aren't really there saying, hey, I need to work on this. They drag their partner in because they're all, look, my partner needs to work on this. So I really wanted to write a book that was like, you know, even if your Partner doesn't want to change. Here's what you can do about it anyway. And the truth is, sometimes when you change your dance steps, like, the other person naturally changes theirs. So if you were to change the way you communicate, when there's conflict, the other person kind of changes anyway. And you don't have to, like, tell them that you're changing or convince them that they're doing something wrong, but you can change how you behave, and then the other person's response ends up changing more naturally anyway.

How do you advise someone to open up the conversation, to even sit down and read this book together? Or should they not do that? Should they read it on their own first?

I think there will be a few couples that both people, both partners sit down and read the book together. And there's conversation starters, questions you can ask. I'm going to guess the vast majority of couples, that's not going to be the case. I think one partner is probably going to be far more motivated to read the book than the other, and that's fine. Every chapter has a section where it says, if you struggle with this thing, here's what you can do. But if your partner is the one who you think struggles with this, here's what you can also do too. And it's not about manipulating them, but sometimes it's about recognizing what's the part I play in this. Maybe my partner leaves their socks on the floor and we get in an argument every night, what can I do differently? Because I really wanted people to feel empowered. Like, yeah, even if your partner doesn't want to change, there's still something you can do to change the relationship.

So in a situation like that, what's the advice that you give someone? Someone's doing something so minimal, but it's wearing away on that individual. They're leaving their socks out. They're not cleaning up. You're asking them, do what are some of the things someone can do to change that situation?

So a few things. One would be to just look at the part that you play, right? And sometimes if we were to use that example of somebody's messy and they leave their stuff out, like, what is it that you do? Do you nag them? Do you scold them? Do you clean up around them? You know, huffing and puffing, all of those kinds of things can make things worse. I pause and say, all right, well, what's something I could do to make it better? And it might be that you point out the behavior that you like. So let's say your partner, one day, they randomly get up and they start cleaning. Wow, I appreciate that so much. That makes my life easier when I don't have to do everything. Or sometimes there's those moments where you need that sit down conversation of, I feel like I'm doing a lot around here. I would really like your help. How can we do this together? And to tackle it like, I don't like nagging you. You obviously don't like it when you're nagged. What can we do together? And to try to tackle it from a problem solving approach rather than a blaming approach.

Oh, my gosh, it sounds so rational and it sounds so easy to do. But to actually pick your head up and stop doing the things that we're naturally inclined to do takes intention, right?

It does. And we get ingrained in these habits, right? Like when you come home from work, do you walk in the door and you automatically complain about your day? Or do you get angry at your partner for something that they did? Do you roll your eyes at one another? Like all of these little habits that we have that we kind of don't even notice because they're just happening so automatically. So sometimes about taking a step back and saying, what can we do differently? What's the part that I play? Sometimes we need to take responsibility for our share. When you say to somebody, like, gosh, I think I've been arguing about this and perhaps I've been making it worse. And even if you think, gosh, only 10% of it's really my fault and 90% is my partner, when you take responsibility for that 10%, the other person's much more likely to then be like, you know what, I play a part in this too. But when we try to point out to them that they're doing something wrong, they just naturally get defensive.

It's also empowering to say like, okay, I do play a role in this and you know I'm going to take responsibility for it. I like that idea. Just hearing you explain that made a lot of sense to me.

That's just it. But it's tough to do. So often we're just really quick to be like, you never do this. I don't like it when you do that. But even in extreme examples where somebody says dating somebody or married to somebody who has an extreme problem, when you say, I think I've been contributing to it because I've been nagging, complaining, or ignoring you, or I roll my eyes again, the other person's often like, huh, interesting. And then they will take on their responsibility.

I love that. All right, let's get into. I want to touch on each one of the 13 elements. And since I am not in a relationship. You are in a healthy marriage and are an expert on this. I want to play devil's advocate on all of these.

Okay.

Number one, they don't ignore their problems. Let me give you flip side of this, Amy. I'm just thinking of my own relationships that didn't work out. I certainly. And I'm sure somebody listening can relate to this. Sometimes you think if you ignore the problem, it might just go away. And it's easier than starting a whole fight or an argument about something when you don't want to argue with somebody.

Right. And that's easier in the short term. Right. It's in the long term that it becomes a problem. And there are some things that you don't need to address all the time. Like, if you have a different religion than your partner, bringing that up every day isn't going to change it. Or when people have vastly different values about, like, how many kids you want to have, there's really not a need to keep bringing that up over and over because you're not going to change the other person's opinion. But when there's a problem that you can solve and you tackle it together, you can accomplish a lot. Like, you and I live in an area where we have hurricanes. Right. We know that relationships get better when people are preparing for a hurricane, which is strange, but it's because they are working together on a problem. Like, we have to board up the house or whatever it is that we have to do whenever there's a problem and we tackle it together, like, your relationship gets better. And even though at first your partner might be like, you know, I don't really want to talk about money, or I don't really want to talk about the household chores or this parenting issue. When you both tackle it, not like, I'm right and you're wrong, but you tackle it like a team, your relationship grows stronger over time.

That is so surprising to me. The piece about the hurricane, I had no idea that something negative like that would bring people together more. Right.

When as long as you look at it as, like, this is a we problem, not just like a I have this problem, but when you look at it as something like, this is a problem that we're both going to tackle together. So it might be that one person in the relationship has a health issue, but when you both say, like, we're going to work on this together, that's what makes all the difference.

That's the same, though, with anything I feel like at my workout classes at work, when you address it as team and we're in this together, it just feels so much better, right?

When you know that you're not alone and somebody's got your back and somebody can also, like, give you a different perspective. Because when you're in the thick of it, it's hard to figure that out sometimes, and you just don't see the problem from all these different angles.

I'm all for team, okay? Number two, they don't keep secrets. Okay, so let me play devil's advocate on this one. Okay? Let's say in a situation, probably using my own life, where maybe you live in an amazing city, you're out and about doing things with all good intentions, and someone comes up to you and maybe is trying to be romantically involved with you, it's inappropriate, and you decide, I'm not even going to mention that to my boyfriend or my fiance, because that's just going to stir up a problem. I had no intention. I didn't do anything to track that situation. I'm going to ignore that. I'm going to put a pit in that and move on and not share that with somebody. And then later in the future, it comes up again.

So in situations like that, it's great if you have conversations up front. Like, what's our expectation of privacy versus secrecy? Because there are things you're going to keep private, private. Hopefully your girlfriend says, hey, I'm having a crisis. You don't have to then tell your partner what that crisis is or what their personal business is, or you don't have to tell them what you just talked to your mom about. All of those things are normal. But you want to make sure that you do have those conversations. Like, what are my expectations of you? If your ex reached out to you on Instagram, would I expect that you'd tell me that? And when couples can have those conversations, kind of. And it could be just that, like, if a coworker were flirting with me, would you want to know that? Or, I thought the waiter was kind of attractive, would you want me to tell you that? Or would that be offensive? And different couples feel differently about these things. So I think part of that is having those conversations about whether you think something is, like, secrecy or privacy. And it kind of gets that out there. And you could even mention that, like, you know, sometimes if something like this happened, it might be innocent. Somebody says something to me, I don't want to bring it up because I don't want to upset you, but how do you feel about that? And just having some more of those open conversations.

Oh, my gosh, that sounds so mature. Okay, clearly I never had conversations like that. But you know what? You just triggered something for me. I saw on social media the other day, a friend of mine who's married, happily married, she posted about how the need in her relationship, she wasn't saying for anyone else. She was asking if other people felt the same way, that she needs to have her husband's passcode to his phone at all points times so that she can at will go search his phone. I read that and I was horrified. I thought to myself, and again, not judging anyone, I'm not. They have a great relationship. But to me, that was so. Oh, I would never want to have to put myself in that situation. This is just my opinion on relationships. But she was so comfortable with it. It was so normal for her and her husband. She was happy to talk about it. To your point that different couples respond very differently and are triggered by different things, one thing might be fine. Another couple might not feel like, that's a great idea. Right.

And I think a lot of people would have that same sort of visceral reaction, like, I'm not going to hand over my phone and let you search through it. Even if I don't have anything that I'm trying to hide, it still feels like an invasion of privacy. But other couples feel like, no, that's what we're going to do, and that's 100% fine. And if that's you're comfortable with that level of lack of privacy, all the more power to you.

Whatever works, right? Number three, they don't hesitate to set boundaries. So giving the other perspective on this, sometimes I remember thinking, this is what, like the conversation I'd have with myself in my head. You know, I'm to my way. I'm too. Sometimes I'm too tough. Sometimes I make it all about what Heather wants. I should give in more to this other person. Which ultimately meant not having boundaries around certain things. And I'm thinking I'm being a nicer partner by doing it. Clearly, it didn't work out.

Yeah. And there's two parts to boundaries with couples. Like, you need boundaries from each other. So again, that might go back to like, where's the boundary with my phone? Are you going to check my email or check my messages or not? And a boundary might be no or a common one. I hear about boundaries is text messaging. One person might say, you know, my partner texts me constantly while I'm at work and I don't have the kind of job where I can keep replying, but I feel bad if I don't reply and the other person feels like their expectation is the other person should reply back within 10 minutes every time they text. So you might have some conversations about that. But as a couple, you also need boundaries with the outside world, like how are you going to protect your relationship from other people? And as a therapist, the one I hear the most about is meddling mother in laws, right? Like my mother in law is always coming over and she's criticizing her parenting or she inserts herself into situations. But you want to just make sure that you have boundaries with extended family and friends so that you feel like the two of you are a united force against all of those things that are probably going to try to tear you apart or could potentially interrupt your relationship over time.

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Okay, number four they don't become martyrs. I can't stand a martyr. How do you keep people from situations from becoming ones where a martyr is involved?

Obviously you have to make sacrifices to be in a relationship, but what you don't want to do is when you cross that line into like, oh, I have to do everything around here and then you don't accept any help, you're convinced that you're the only one that can do everything. And then I was hearing this so much in my therapy office where people were just really frustrated like, oh my partner and they can't ever do anything right and I have to do everything around here and you grow bitter and resentful and it just isn't good. So what we want to do is to recognize when we start to cross that line. Like, do I really have to do everything around here? Is it really my job? Am I asking for help? Am I allowing my partner to help? And then when you're in the relationship with somebody who's insisting all of that too, sometimes you have to gently point it out like, I'd really like to help but I need to know, like what does help look like to you right now? Or how can I be useful? Or how could I assist with some of this stuff? But for some reason it's often a badge of honor, like I'm Going to do everything and not let anybody interfere with it.

Okay, so I was a person. I'm just thinking, my last engagement, I was a person that ultimately, oh, you're not going to take care of this? Well, I'll take care of it. I'll go do everything. Don't worry, I've got it. Literally, that's how I would respond. How, when you're the person that feels like the other person's lazy, not getting stuff done, how can you communicate more effectively rather than saying, forget it, I'll just take care of everything again, like I always do?

So sometimes I think it's about backing up and thinking, why do I feel like I have to do it because I don't trust the other person's going to do their job? Or it feels like too much effort, or I'm afraid if I ask for help, they're going to say no. Sometimes people don't want to be rejected. So they're like, it's easier for me to just spring into action than to ask you to do it. So I think really backing up and asking those questions and then sometimes saying, it's uncomfortable to let somebody else do it, but I'm going to try it anyway just to see what happens. Sometimes we're like, oh, it's not that bad. Or maybe I was going to do it this way. The person does it a little differently, but that's okay too. And I'll let them do it differently and see what happens. And often, yeah, there's usually more than one way to do something.

I think that's a very fair point.

Right?

Not just always my way. Yes. Okay, number five, they don't use their emotions as weapons. What does that mean?

So this one is really about when sometimes people will be like, and the conversation was kind of uncomfortable, so I started to cry. And then the conversation ended. And you might really be sad, but you know that turning on the waterworks is the best way to end the conversation. Or sometimes people will say like, oh, I can't make that phone call because I have anxiety. Maybe you really do have some anxiety, but you're getting out of doing things by blaming it on your anxiety. Or anger is another one where somebody will say, if I raise my voice, we won't have to talk about these difficult subjects. So we see that a lot where people are like, you know, even when we talk about feelings, somebody will talk about not just how they felt, but what they did. Like, what's the time when you were mad? Well, I raised my voice. Or talk about A time when you were sad. Well, I started to cry. Okay, well, you felt sad. That was the emotion. And then the behavior was crying. And like, whatever you feel is okay, but we have some skills and tools that you don't have to use those emotions to try and manipulate the other person.

Wow. It becomes super clear. Like, I can see it playing out in my mind exactly what you were just describing. But yet again, we get into such a routine, you're not noticing that there's anything you can do to interrupt that. Do you hear that from a lot of people?

I do. And so then people will say, yeah, but I'm really mad and I want to show the other person that I'm mad. So what do we do about this? And sometimes it's about just using your words. Like, gosh, it's really tough to talk about this subject because I'm so sad, or I feel really guilty, or I do get really frustrated. But then you come up with a plan of like, okay, how can you manage your anxiety in a healthy way? And maybe you need to take a break. Maybe you need a little support from the other person. And it's about figuring out how do you ask for that support without trying to manipulate how the other person behaves. So if we took the anxiety example, I've worked with people who've spent years avoiding anything. Like, I don't go to family events because I have anxiety, or I don't do these certain things because of my anxiety. So then it becomes, how do you bring your partner into this? How could they support you? Maybe you go and they agree when you give them the signal you're going to leave early. Or maybe they go with you to an appointment even though that's anxiety provoking, and you try to work through those emotions rather than just expecting the other person to take on more of the load.

That's so good.

I love that.

It's like taking baby steps almost to try to test and see how it goes.

Right, Exactly.

Okay, so number six, they don't try to fix each other. I've always been in relationships with people I need to fix. Why is that, Amy? Fix me.

Well, you know, so often I think that happens because we like, you know, you see somebody's potential, right? And you think, oh, if only they didn't have this problem. If only they would do these things and they could accomplish so much. And that might all be absolutely true. But if they don't see that for themselves and they don't want to make those changes, it just doesn't work. And it's so frustrating for everybody. Like, nobody wants to be fixed, and none of us really want to try and be, like, on the construction crew of somebody's life where we think we're fixing them up, but it doesn't stop us from trying. And so it's really about taking that step back and saying, all right, what's my motivation here? What can I do to support this person in changing without trying to force change if it's not meant to be? And in this chapter, I give an example of a woman who is married to somebody with a substance abuse problem. It's terrible to see somebody struggling with something like that. However, yelling and nagging and complaining and all of those things don't work. But instead, what she did was she just learned to, like, turn on the positive stuff. So when he didn't drink, when he came straight home from work, she was all, hey, great to see you do some ignoring of some of the behaviors she didn't want to see. And this is like the simplified version. This isn't necessarily how you cure somebody's substance abuse problem. Her goal was to reduce their conflict, and that's what it was all about, instead of trying to force him to stop. Because I see people that get desperate. They're dumping somebody's alcohol down the drain, and they're taking these desperate measures, and none of that actually works. So it's about figuring out, how do you help somebody who isn't motivated? And sometimes it's about focusing on yourself instead of the other person.

Oh, my gosh, that's so, so true. And somebody has to want to change for themselves. There is no way that you dumping someone's alcohol or breaking into their phone and finding out what messages they're sending is going to change that. They have to be the one to want to change. So I'm so glad that you use that example. It's such a good one. Number seven, they don't communicate with disrespect. That's interesting one, Amy, because what one person might think is disrespectful, the other person does not.

That's it, too, because sometimes, you know, raised voices, somebody might say, no. In our house, we yelled at each other all the time. So I don't see that as disrespectful.

Respect.

And somebody else might be like, you know, in my house growing up, we didn't do that. So when you raise your voice, I feel attacked. So it is important to have those conversations, like, what's your expectation? And sometimes it's subtle stuff.

Too.

Can't tell you how many people will say, my partner doesn't look up from their phone. I come home from work and I'm trying to talk to them, and they just don't look up from their laptop or their phone. And I feel disrespected because they're not listening. And the other person's like, no, I'm listening, of course I am. Or the habit of rolling your eyes. Or it's the tone that you use so often. People don't realize it. That's why it's really important to bring this conversation to the forefront and talk about, like, what do I find disrespectful? What do you find disrespectful that I do, and how can we work on that?

How do you know when you're struggling with any one of these things, when it's time to leave, like, pull the ripcord and say, this relationship is a wrap. It's not going to work.

Oh, I'm glad you asked that, because I'm not, like, a huge proponent of saying that you should stay together no matter what. I have so many people that have been in my therapy office, and they're like, well, we invested 10 years, so I feel like we don't want to throw that away. But they hate each other. They've gone to the booking where nothing good will come out of it, or couples that try to stay together for the kids. So I think it's important to evaluate, like, your own mental health. If your mental health is suffering and no matter what you do, you're still struggling, like, it's okay sometimes to say, let's take a break, whether that means we're just going to separate or eventually get a divorce, like, it's okay. So I think evaluate your own mental health, whether you're able to grow and change and thrive. And if you feel like you really can't do that. And for goodness sakes, if you're in an abusive relationship, too, I don't want people to think that you should be able to stick it out. Or it's a sign that you're not mentally strong enough if you're really struggling. No, it's impossible to be in a really unhealthy relationship and to thrive. It will wear you down and make your ability to build mental strength impossible.

I also just. Personally, I remember I called off my engagement. I'll never forget this. To your point about, you know, you've got so many years in with someone, you want to be loyal and you want to do the Right thing. Like, I want to be a good person. I'm saying this to myself. And I remember I ended up. I was in Atlanta visiting one of my best friends. I hadn't seen her in months. And she said to me, something's wrong here. And again, this is someone I trust that I know has my best interest at heart, not just some random outsider. She said, no, this has gone on too long. You're not happy anymore. Your energy's off. Something's wrong. Heather, you need to come correct. Like, what's happening here? And just that one someone I love that much, hitting me in the face with. You're not being honest with yourself. That was all it took for me. Like, a light went on. And I said, she's right. I'm not happy. To your point, I'm not going down the drain for anything. Like, I've got to pull the ripcord, save myself, and get out. And that was the day I made the decision. Sometimes it can take just one person close to you opening your eyes to it, right?

It can. Because, you know, our emotions cloud our judgment. And when you're really emotional, and I don't know how many people will say, like, well, we already sent out the invitations. We can't put the brakes on now. Like, no, you absolutely can. And sometimes we just. It's almost like we need permission. In fact, I find a lot of people come to therapy sort of asking for permission to get divorced. They'll be like, you know, we did everything. We wanted to try therapy. But, like, they both already have a foot out the door, and they just really want somebody to say, it's okay. Like, you don't have to stay in this if neither of you want to go ahead and part ways. And people will often be, like, really? Like, they're really relieved to hear somebody.

Say that, oh, my gosh, life is too short. People should not live in a miserable situation that they don't need to be in.

Okay?

So number eight, they don't blame each other for their problems.

Right? So how often do we say that? And even when I ask people, like, would you be happier if. If your partner changed? Or how much of your happiness is contingent on your partner, about 40% of people said, you know, if my partner were better, then I'd be a happier person, that's putting a lot of responsibility on your partner for your own happiness. So I really wanted people to know, like, nope. If there's an issue in your relationship, take responsibility and take control over what you can control and focus on how to make it the best you can.

So that's a common issue, that people are just blaming the relationship problems just on the other person and not looking at the role they play in it.

Right. Often people be like, you know, my life would be so much better if my partner changed, if my partner weren't so unmotivated, or if my partner were better with money. And those might be legitimate problems. However, you still have the personal responsibility to say, and how do I make my life the best I can, given my circumstances?

All about empowering yourself with the decisions and choices that you make, not looking the blame game across the street.

Exactly.

Number nine, they don't forget why they fell in love. Oh, that's hard. If you're spending a year, two years, whatever it is, and these unhappy phases, it's hard to remember back. Right?

It is. Sometimes people are like, you know, 10 or 20 years later, like, we've moved and now we have real jobs and kids and so many responsibilities. It's tough to remember that, like, we're not just business partners, that you chose this person for a reason. And just remembering that often helps people feel better, connected. The only thing is, you don't want to use that as a weapon. Like, well, back in college, you were fun. The person's like, yeah, but now I have a real job and real responsibilities, and it's not. I'm not able to still be that spontaneous person. But. But just remembering, like, person chose you, and you chose them for a reason. There are lots of people out there, but something brought the two of you together. And keeping that in mind, even when life is tough, I think really helps people stay committed. So then, you know, it's worthwhile. Normally, we wouldn't put up with annoying things. Or if you have somebody in your life that you have a problem with, like, we part ways. You cut ties when you're with somebody you want to know, like, yeah, it's worth working through these problems. I want to make sure that we are working together. And when you remember why you fell in love, it just deepens that commitment and reminds you that it's all worthwhile.

Are there any exercises or prompts you can give people to help them actually stimulate and remember? Because I feel like it can seem like a very long time ago.

So. Yeah, absolutely. So for couples that have a song, it might be their wedding song, the song that they used to listen to when they were on a date listening to your song. There's research that will show just having a song and listening to it together strengthens the relationship. Another One is just carry around a picture of your partner. Doesn't have to be an older picture from when you first met, it might be a recent one. Whether you make it your wallpaper on your phone or you just have a picture of them that you keep in your pocket, looking at their picture strengthens your commitment. So some people will make a folder on their phone and it might just be some happy times that the two of you had together. A couple vacations you've been on, a really fun times that includes your partner. Just look through those photos sometimes, maybe during the day or when you're apart. And again, it just strengthens the relationship and reminds you of why you're together even to this day, that you something brought you together once upon a time.

Yes, I couldn't agree more. I was just with my father and his partner and she was saying to me, oh, you know, your father was so good looking when he was younger. So I said, dad, give me your phone. And I took my dad's phone and I was pulling up pictures of my dad. My dad's very good looking and was really handsome when he was young. So I started showing her all these pictures of my dad when he was younger. And she's like, oh, can you send me that one? Can you send me that one? And so I saved it on my dad's screensaver as his picture, you know, so that when he texts her, that's the picture that comes up and she was going crazy for it.

So that definitely love that.

Yeah, it definitely works. Okay, number 10. They don't expect the relationship to meet all their needs. Oh my gosh, women need this one. Is this one more for women than men?

I would say probably a lot of women struggle with this, but I know some men do too, right? We get into a relationship and we sort of buy into that Jerry Maguire, you complete me thing. And when you really think about, like, what are you expecting of your partner? The list is really long, right? We're expecting this person to be our business partner, our financial partner, we're running a household. Maybe you have kids, you're doing all of these things together. And then you probably depend on them for things like companionship and recreation and fun. And then at some point, the two of you are supposed to also have a romantic relationship. You're like, that's a really long list of expectations. And then you put in there the personality differences. You might be somebody that enjoys being around people all the time. Your partner might need some alone time and independence. So you think, well, how do we Balance all of these things, and how do we meet those needs? So sometimes it's about knowing, you know, I have this interest, these hobbies, or I need time to talk about things. My partner's not really into it. Have friends. Friends can solve so many problems. If you have friends that you can depend on to do fun things with and do things that your partner isn't interested in, that solves a lot of these problems.

And people have different perspectives. This is so interesting that you bring this point up. I'm very, very close to one of my couple friends is married. And I was friends with the husband separately. Friends with the wife separately. Like, we're all great, great friends. And I was with them, and all of a sudden the husband had said something completely innocent to the wife. She got triggered by Amy and went to a place. I was in shock. She got so angry. But you could tell this is something that has been going on when I'm not around. But I could tell he had no ill intent. It was very obvious. But something triggered her. And luckily, because I was there, I was able to get up, walk over to her, give her a hug, and tell her, he's not attacking you. You need to take a deep breath.

You're safe.

We all love you here. And she calmed down. She started crying. And she explains what had triggered her, which had been an argument months ago. But she couldn't see it when she was just alone with him. She needed that help of an outside perspective. And it was just so interesting to me because it was so obvious.

Right? Oh, that's interesting again. When our emotions are high or logic is low. So when we are really emotional in that moment, that's why people sometimes do some pretty irrational things. Their emotions are high, you know, and it's really hard to think clearly. So in that case, you were able to help her see the situation from a different perspective. Probably calmed her down. And she's like, oh, okay.

I like that when your emotions are high, the logic is low. I've never heard that before. Yeah, yeah.

It's one of those things that I think we don't often realize, but if we gave you an IQ test when you were really angry, you'd score really low on it. Like, when our emotions are high, like, our intelligence is actually pretty low.

Well, yet again, that makes more sense to walk away from a situation to calm yourself down. I always say, like, give yourself 24 hours before you come back. Never react. Respond with grace and class. And the best way to do that is give yourself some space.

Absolutely, yes.

Wow. Okay. Number 11. They don't neglect their partnership. What does that mean?

So, again, if we went back to how many jobs we all have, whether we're out there earning money, taking care of the house, it's tough to then focus on. Yeah, we're also building a partnership, and often that's sort of on the bottom of the list. People are like, well, my partner will understand if we don't spend any time together this week, or my relationship is fine. But it's really that when we have that expectation that we don't have to nurture our relationship, that it often dwindles, that people are like, you know, after five years, like, we just haven't really grown together. We haven't done much together. We don't really know who we are these days because we're not spending enough time together. But it's easy to let that fall really low on the priority list.

It isn't something that you're thinking of, again, like, you to actually take the time to step back and be thoughtful and intentional about this. This is probably the only time somebody's going to do it is when they're going through this book.

Right. Because otherwise it's easy to be like, there's more pressing issues today, and it might be, you know, paying the bills and taking care of the kids and doing all of these things that have to be done right now. And so then again, when we're on the bottom of the priority list, the relationship, like, it just never really is going to make its way up to number one on the list. So at some point, you have to say, no, we're doing this. We're going to really focus on this and make sure that we are doing something for our relationship, too.

Oh, my gosh, that's so, so important and so rarely done. Okay, number 12. They don't take each other for granted. This has got to be, like, the most common one.

It is. I think so many people are like, no, you know, we're good. Not a problem in the relationship. And they just expect that their partner will do things for them, will always be there without ever saying it or without ever showing much appreciation for it.

Number 13, they don't stop growing and changing.

Right along those same lines that we just want people to know, like, no, it's okay to grow and change and challenge each other. Sometimes people think it's conflict that leads to divorce. You know what the number one thing is that actually causes divorce? It's boredom. When couples are bored, when they aren't growing and changing, that's when they actually tend to break up because people are like, you know, 10 years later, I'm bored, and I tend to be looking around at other viable options, or I'm thinking about what it is that I want to do next. We haven't fought in 10 years. Well, you probably haven't had a heated, passionate conversation in 10 years either. So you just want to make sure that you are growing and changing and honoring how each of you is growing and changing and that you try new things. You get yourself out there, and you challenge yourself to do new things, too.

I can't believe the number one reason people get divorced is from boredom. That shocks me.

I know. And I don't know why. We always just think it's about fighting, right? Like, oh, they just couldn't get along. But that's usually not it. These couples that are arguing are still, like, passionate enough to argue. It's the couples that are like, oh, I'm not going to bring that problem up. And they ignore the problem problems. And over time, they don't really work on addressing the tough stuff. They're the ones that tend to be more likely to grow bored and grow apart.

Oh, my gosh. All right, so this just popped into my head. This is totally dysfunctional. Obviously, this is why we're no longer together. But my ex, I remember him saying to me, could you maybe try to get dressed up again when we go out on a date? Or maybe could you wear a dress again? I don't know. The last time I saw you wearing a dress, and I don't even know how long, and I remember him saying that to me and remember thinking, why would I try? I don't need to try. I don't care. Like it. There was zero effort at that point. If someone feels like that, does that mean it's just time to get out? Or are things like this just ruts you get into?

I think a lot of people get into ruts, Right? And we'll take Covid. And everybody was at home, and most people didn't put on real clothes for a long time. And so sometimes I ask yourself, if I were going out with my good friends to a fancy restaurant, like, what would I wear with them? Or if I were going to an important work dinner, would I dress up for them? Or would I take time for somebody else and not for my partner? And if you would for other people, maybe it's time to say, like, well, what could I do also to make my partner feel special? And if we go somewhere, let's go Somewhere nice if that's important to them.

Oh my gosh, it's so true. And all right, we won't get into what my answer is for that one. I think, you know, because we pulled the plug on that relationship. I mean, this book is a must have for anybody in a relationship wanting to head into a new year re engaging with their partner and improving their relationship. Who did you specifically write this book for?

I think anybody who is interested in building mental strength and wants to know how their relationship can help them grow stronger or vice versa, or how they can help somebody else in their relationship. So my hope is that plenty of people who are in long term relationships will like it. But even people who say, you know, I'm not in a relationship right now, but I want to be a good partner for, for somebody in the future, My hope is that they'll get something out of it too.

Oh, it's so good. 13 things mentally strong couples don't do. It is live. Now, set yourself up for your best year. Next year, 2024 is going to be your year for your best relationship. Once you got this book, Amy, where does everyone get the book and how do they find you?

So the book should be available pretty much anywhere books are sold and my website is Amy Morin, LCSW, as in licensed ClinicalSocialWorker.com Remember, take advice and direction.

From those who have been where you want to go. This woman is the absolute expert on mental strength. Amy, thank you so much for the work you do and for being here.

Thank you, Heather. It's a pleasure.

Until next week, keep creating your confidence and pray my voice comes back. I decided to change that dynamic. I couldn't be more excited for what you're going to hear. Start learning and growing. Inevitably something will happen. No one succeeds alone.

You don't stop and look around once in a while. You could miss it.

Come on this journey with me.