#39: Chris Voss

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When you join me Podcast one we are going to chase down our goals, overcome adversity and set you up for a better tomorrow. Come on this journey with me. Hi and welcome back. I'm sorry, Glad I get to be with you and I'm so grateful for you being here today. So there's no way we can talk about anything without talking about the tragedy of Kobe Bryant, his daughter and their friends on the helicopter. It's just heart wrenching. I can't fathom what his poor wife is dealing with. And it took me back to remember. I guess it must be about five years ago now. That's so weird that I think about this, but I was. It was a Sunday at noon, beautiful day in Miami and I, my son and I were out together doing errands and I think we were going to the movies or we had some fun day planned and I pulled into a gas station right down the street from my house that I've been to a thousand times. I got out of the car and started pumping gas and my son was in his car seat in the back, strapped in. And unbeknownst to me, I had been listening to music. I was in a great mood. I was looking around at the beautiful environment we live in and completely unaware. And I heard someone scream and I looked up and I'll never forget that feeling. In that moment I realized I had left the keys to my car, my phone, my wallet, all Sitting right in the front console area where I had been driving. I was completely unaware, not thinking at all. And in that moment, there was a criminal in the front seat of my car. And that person could have very easily driven my car away and kidnapped my child. And as I ran to the front of the car, that criminal jumped in a car that was waiting beside my car. This was. Obviously, these people were professionals. They did this all the time. Luckily, they had no intent in regards to taking my child, kidnapping my child, thank God, or stealing my car. They just wanted to steal my wallet, my phone, you know, everything that they could grab in the front of my car. And it was the scariest thing from that day for probably months later, I. I couldn't separate that incident with the idea that I almost lost my child. In my mind, that was. And again, I. I get it. I know that person was just a criminal trying to steal my things. And listen, here's what I've learned and I want you to know, anytime you go to the gas station, you hold your keys, your wallet and your phone in your hand while you pump your gas. While you're pumping your gas, you lock your car. It's really important because there are a tremendous amount of criminals that, you know, this is their expertise, this is what they do. So you really have to be vigilant. I don't bring my son to gas stations anymore, you know, but this is that one moment in my life that I realized I could have lost my son. And it was the worst experience. And I can't put words to it. So it's the only time that I could ever liken anything. That. That idea of losing a child, which is so unnatural, horrif, heartbreaking. I just. I cannot. My heart breaks for Kobe Bryant's wife. I just. I can't even fathom it. And we were. When this happened, we were. My son had so many events this weekend and it was such a crazy weekend driven by a 12 year old. So, you know, if we were at a basketball game for him, we were at, you know, I was driving him to his friend's house. Then after that, we were. We had a paintball birthday party. And then after that, on Sunday, we had a Dave and Buster's event for all of his teammates. And it was just one thing after another. And I was complaining in the car ride to Dave and Buster's because I went to the wrong mall. I thought it was at one mall, it was at another mall. I was lost. I was being irritable. And I was lecturing him as if it was his fault. And we get to Dave and Buster's and I'm sitting there with another mother and we're just talking and chatting and my son comes over and tells me, mom, Kobe Bryant just died in a helicopter crash. And I hadn't, I was like, I couldn't even understand what he was talking about. And it immediately reminded me of when JFK Jr died when I was young in a plane crash. And it was just so surreal and heart wrenching and again reminded me that in any moment, you just don't know what can happen. And heart wrenching. My heart breaks. I'm praying for this woman and I just, I can't imagine what this poor woman is going through. I'm just, I'm heartbroken for her and so grateful I have my child. And, and I told him, I said, I am not going to complain. I'm not going to complain about driving you anywhere. I'm not. I'm just so grateful to have you. I don't know if my son even really gets. Seemed like he did. So I guess at 12 they're really starting to understand the magnitude of life and how precious it is and how it can be gone in any moment. And I'm so grateful for him in my life. So I had to, I had to discuss that, but I do want to share with you. I had shared that last week I was going to New York and that was right, Coming, coming in hot after a trip to la and I was super tired. Oh my gosh, I'm still super tired. But that's because my morning is a complete S show. Getting up every day at 5:45 so I can race out of this house to get my son to the bus drop off at 6:25am and it's crazy, it's funny. Somebody asked me on Insta, my Insta story, what is your morning routine like? Do you meditate? What people need to know. I do not have some glamorous life where I have servants running around and I'm meditating and sleeping in. No, this is. My life is lived on fire. Literally every day there's an alarm clock. I don't just sleep. And I think that's so funny. You know, I'm a single mom and I have to get this party started and I drag my kid out of bed and there's yelling in the morning and it's intense and fast paced. And then here I am recording my podcast as soon as I get back. You know, there's a lot going on. It's very Hectic. I'm super grateful for it, especially right now. More grateful than ever that I have this crazy, intense life and I have the best kid and we have an amazing relationship and it's all good, but it definitely. It's fire, that is for sure. So, anyway, so I went to New York last week and. And I had shared this with you. It was out of nowhere. I was asked to do an interview and then I got booked to speak and then I ended up capitalizing because I went to New York. And I strongly suggest this for you, if you're going to go to a different state, you're going to be in a different place. Put out an APB to everyone, let them know that. Because what that did is it started a domino effect for me. I reached out to all my friends and past colleagues and peers and vendors in New York and said, hey, coming into town, don't know if there's a chance we can meet up, would love to see you, et cetera. And I ended up booking four amazing meetings that I had not planned on, people that hadn't planned on me being there. That really opened some new doors and new opportunities for me. We'll see how these things pan out this week and next week. But. But they wouldn't have happened had I not made some phone calls and some people wanted to assist me and people I hadn't spoken to in a really long time. So, you know, reach out to people, let them know that you're going to be in town, let them know what you're doing and just say yes when you get that, when someone calls you and says, hey, would you like to do this? Yeah. Heck yeah, I would. I want to be there. And it really started a domino effect for me. Some great meetings, some really exciting stuff that I hope I can get back to you very soon on that will impact everything in a podcast positive way. So here's the bad news. I was leaving New York and my flight got delayed four hours. I ended up sitting in LaGuardia all night, Friday night, and that stunk. And then getting on the tarmac and sitting there. I got home at 2:30 in the morning. I was literally almost up 24 hours because I had gotten up at 5:30am that morning before I had a full day in New York and I just, I was on zero sleep, got home, there was no food in the fridge. I was just in the absolute worst mood and super exhausted. But in the end, you know, it's. It's all worth it. Things don't come together perfectly, but you know, taking that leap, showing up definitely makes a difference. And so I wanted to share this with you. As you know, I'm always all over LinkedIn. When the next day I posted something on LinkedIn like this, I didn't get upgraded, which I've been flying for two decades. You know, my job in corporate America had me on a flight every single week. I was a chief revenue officer, radio company, and I would have to fly to all my different markets, see my largest clients, I was all over the country. So clearly I have ridiculous amount of miles on airlines and I typically get upgraded on every flight, as I should. Right, Because I put a lot of time and money into flying on this flight to New York. I did not. I booked it last minute, whatever, okay, that's fine. So I'm sitting in the back and at one point they say, okay, if you have to go to the bathroom, get up now, we're going to be landing soon. I turn my head and look back and the line to go to the bathroom in the back was ridiculous. Literally filling the whole plane. I mean, there must have been 15 people. And I thought, well, that's silly, I'm not going to do that. I look to the front of the plane, there's no one in line. So I just jumped up. I didn't ask permission and I just made my move, jumped up, walked right very quickly, walked right into the first class bathroom, came right back out and sat down. The man next to me says, how did you do that? I said, I didn't ask permission and speed to market. And I just gave a business analogy. Listen, in business, I don't ask permission before I make any move. I trust gut. And if you want to innovate, you want to evolve, you want to grow, you've got to act on that. Don't ask permission. And speed to market is critical. HE LAUGHS he kind of hesitates. He slowly gets up. You can just see his face. He was second guessing himself and he starts slowly walking up front. Well, of course the flight attendant had plenty of time to stop him because he was very hesitant. And she stops and says, you know, why don't you go to the one in the back and get in that line? And he comes and sits back down. He's like, forget it. And so I posted about this on LinkedIn as a business opportunity or analogy that, listen, speed to market is critical as well as in addition to never ask permission in business, you know, follow your gut and trust yourself. And someone on LinkedIn called me an entitled brat, which I took offense with. And listen, I have haters all over social media crushing me all the time and I don't really care. It doesn't bother me. I ignore them and you know, it's par for the course, whatever, but that one struck a chord with me and I posted about this on both Instagram and LinkedIn. I take offense to entitle Brat and here's why. I grew up poor. I had a paper route when I was 10, you know, and that evolved into being a busboy at a diner. Then I started working at fast food restaurants at the drive thru window. Then I started waiting tables. Then I started lifeguarding. I was lifeguard. Then I started bartending. That led me to the Gala Winery, which when I first started, I rode the delivery trucks and unloaded the wine trucks, wine cases, cleaned the shelves at retail liquor stores in order to make my way into a sales rep. From there I took an equity partnership opportunity, moved alone to Michigan at 25 years old and ran a $25 million property, grew it into a 55 million dollar property, sold it in under three years, and then moved alone to run a publicly traded company in Florida. Grew that company from $100 million billing annually to in excess of $200 million annually. Before, during my tenure there, before I got fired. And then I reinvented myself as a bestselling author, a best podcast, host of a hello Shout Out, Creating Confidence business podcast, as well as becoming a professional speaker. None of that would suggest that I'm entitled, that I have things given to me. Actually, it's completely the opposite. And so sometimes I think people see a picture of someone and they create their own story. I wanted people to know that's BS. Not true. I hustle and work harder than 99% of of the people that I know, if not 100%. And I'm proud of it. And I want people to know this stuff hasn't been handed to me. I don't have a dad that handed me a company. You know, I created my company. I created opportunities. I created the VP of sales role that didn't exist before I pitched it. So you know, it's all about hustle. And that one person that called me an entitled brat got a little bit of a kickback on LinkedIn because I was not feeling it. So do you own or rent your home?

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But it was super interesting because there's this analogy when I sat down and talked with him, you know, he was working for their government, basically the man, the machine. Similar to me. I was working for corporate America, working for the man, the machine. And now he's out on his own, you know, finding his own way, which is not easy. We talked about this off, off the show, but I want to give you the insight that when I sat with him, it was super interesting. He was sharing how, Heather, you know, it's some of the challenges coming up. You know, his company is growing very rapidly and scaling up much faster than I think he had planned. And he's saying, you know, I brought in a business coach to help me with this or that. And I said, what's the challenge? And he's talking about, well, you know, hiring employees, firing employees, you know, evolving and growing employees. And to me, that second nature, I did that for two decades and it was so funny. And I said that to him. I said, oh my gosh, it's so interesting. That stuff to me is second nature. I wouldn't think twice about that. I wouldn't need help with that. But I need help with, you know, figuring out the speaking business and how do I accelerate that? So, you know, it's so we're all so different and unique and sometimes we lose sight of that value and what's valuable about us. So don't forget about that. Something that you take for granted that, you know, like the back of your hand, whatever that may be, that is unique, that's A skill and a value value about you. And having that discussion with Chris really helped me to open my eyes to I might not be as far down the road as he is in his speaking business. He's booked literally every single day. That's also a challenge because you're flying around so much. However, it's very, very lucrative. And I want to be there where he is. He's, like I said, it's almost a decade ahead of me because he had left the FBI, written his book, and started his speaking career nearly 10 years before I did. So I understand that I have to have that patience. But I also understand there are shortcuts sometimes and ways to leapfrog and get ahead and jump in. And I was inspired by Jesse Itzler actually posted about this this week on his Instagram. He was talking about how he's three years into speaking career and he, he had 72 speeches last year. Now a lot of people take five, 10 years to get there. He did it very quickly, right? So it's sometimes people say, do you have patience, Enjoy the journey? Quote, unquote. I can't stand that, that I'll enjoy the journey when the cash is coming in. But you know, it's great to see that people advance at different rates. People figure things out differently, move faster, some move slower. And some, like Chris, have different challenges within their business that. Challenges that you know, you wouldn't have, but you might be dealing with other challenges. So it's, how do we figure out, you know, that the fastest linear route to get to our goals while really celebrating our skills, our unique assets so that we can make that even, you know, that journey that much better. So it was great to hear. I super appreciated Chris and his time. He was actually speaking. We weren't supposed to record our episode for a few months, but Chris ended up landing a speaking engagement in Fort Lauderdale, which is only, you know, 30 minutes from where I live. And I was able to get out there and record him and super grateful for him making that time as he is such a sought after guest. His unique skills, negotiating hostages for the FBI. I mean, literally, he's saving people's lives. That's how he built his career, built his expertise, and he's sharing it with us. I mean, the tips that he drops on us right now, if you are in sales, if you are in a relationship, if you want to get a dinner reservation, I mean, these are all strategies and techniques that are so different than what I had been taught. And I'm so grateful that he spent the Time to teach me about it, to teach you to share it with, with both of us. It's really eye opening and it's going to add so much value for you. I'm freaking out, but I can't get to that interview without talking to you about. I've been asked a lot about what products I'm using. I'll tell you. For me, I need things that are easy, simple, keep it clean, keep it moving, but keep me looking young because I travel a lot. My skin gets so incredibly dry. But I also have a 12 year old and I like him to be able to use my products as well so that I don't have to double down and buy, you know, additional things all the time. 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I'm happy to be here. Thank you for having me on.

Oh, I'm so excited. Okay, so as we were just talking about off air, my background is weirdly, eerily similar, yet not to yours in that I came up through corporate America in sales, and now I'm off as an entrepreneur. You came up through the government and the FBI, and you're now and years ahead of me, an extremely successful entrepreneur, author, professional speaker, and founder of the Black Swan Group. One of the things that struck me as I've been diving into your book, diving into your talks and content, are the wrong strategies. Myself, I've taught other people as a sales leader, as a sales salesperson, beginning with the importance of in sales 101, we always say make sure you say the other person's name as much as possible. And as I mentioned to you, I was just jumping into your TEDx talk, which was phenomenal. And you're telling the story of trying to get a bar seat next to a former Vietnam vet and how you wanted him to say your name. Can you talk a little Bit about that.

Yeah, sure. You go from being a nameless, faceless, unknown. As soon as they say your name, it changes everything. I mean, we learned it in hostage negotiation. We get the bad guys to say the hostage's name, makes them person, makes it much harder to hurt the hostage. He's going to change the entire dynamic. You just get them to say their name. So I started doing that in my interactions. And as you said, most salespeople are taught use the other person's name on them over and over again. Well, the first problem with that is it's an overused technique and people grossly overused people get hammered by it. So the guard goes up instantly. And then the other thing is they're not getting to know you now. This is not about common ground. They don't need to know your background. They don't need to know where your kids play softball. They don't need to know any of that. All they really need to know is your name. And that makes such an instantaneous difference. You suddenly become a person to them, them and a lot of salespeople. I'm talking to a guy running a real estate brokerage. He's telling me about, you know, we really get to know these people. We're having trouble getting responses in some of our emails. And I said, that's exactly the problem. And he said, what? I said, say that again. He says, we spent a lot of time getting to know them. I say, yeah, they don't know you. You're nothing to them. You're not a human being. It's easy for them to not respond if they don't know you. It's easy for them to hurt you, you if they don't know you. Just the first name thing, you know, whether it's, you know, your Jay Z, your Beyonce, your Cher, you know, everybody wants to go by one name, you know, become. Become Beyonce to them, the one name. Massive instantaneous change in how they see you.

And is that part of the process of establishing competence?

Interesting question. No, it's actually along just easy rapport without the other side feeling corny. And, you know, it's all of us. One of our favorite tricks, we like to like, I get the Kris discount on clothing in stores. You know, I'll joke around with them, I'll talk to them. And at some point in time, not at the beginning, but sometimes towards the end, I'll say, well, you know, okay, so that's today's price. What's the Kris price? How much is it today for Chris? And they typically Always laugh, which is another good emotional intelligence neuroscience advantage. If you get somebody to laugh, appropriate to the moment can't be. You don't walk in telling jokes. You also don't walk in. I don't walk in asking for the Kris price when I walk in the door. But after I've kidded around with them a little bit, and I said, well, what's the Kris Price today? If I become a person and it's made them laugh and it's changed their day, if they can move some more on the price, they will.

So one of the interesting things that I've learned from you is the amount of times we're unaware in any given day that we're actually in a negotiation. So how do we know we're in a negotiation then?

If the words I want or I need are coming out of anybody's mouth or they're in your head, you're in a negotiation.

And isn't it the most dangerous negotiation is the one that we're unaware of.

The one you don't know you're in? Yeah, because the other side's negotiating and you're not. Or you're in a negotiation and you're unaware of it. So you're not gathering information from the other side. You're not establishing a relationship. They feel dismissed by you, which is not good for getting what you want. I mean, one of my students shared a saying from his dad with me a long time ago, said, never be mean to somebody who could hurt you by doing nothing. Maybe give that some thought. That's for everybody you interact with. With. So also the flip side of that, everybody you interact with could help you if they felt like it. So make them feel like it.

So, so much about what you talk about in your book specifically is around being good, being kind, doing the right things, which sounds so interesting to me coming from an FBI hostage negotiator.

You don't expect that somebody's supposed to be a badass, right?

Exactly. Exactly. So one of the points that sticks with me is this tactical empathy. Can you explain to everybody a little bit about what that means?

Yeah. Well, first of all, empathy has become misunderstood in today's jargon. It's become synonymous with sympathy or agreement or compassion. Now, empathy is a very compassionate thing to do, but it's not compassion. Empathy, as designed, was simply understanding the other side and articulating it doesn't require you to feel it or agree and doesn't even require you to be nice and agreeable in any way, shape, or form. Completely understanding the Other side. Ridiculously powerful approach to take. Because if that's your definition of empathy, you can use it with anybody. Democrat could do it with a Republican. A hostage negotiator can do it with a member of Al Qaeda, which was my job. So then the reason why we put tactical in front of it is when empathy was originally invented, we couldn't see inside somebody's brain. I could put you in an fmri, functional magnetic resonance imaging device that watches the electrical activity in your brain, and I can watch your brain react emotionally. And now we know how it reacts, because we can watch it. Well, if we know how it reacts, then why don't we take advantage of that strategically, tactically? I know if you're feeling a negative thought towards me, instead of me saying, look, I don't want to seem like a jerk, which is a denial, I'll just make the 2 millimeter shift and I'll say, look, I probably look like a jerk. And that'll deactivate the negativity in your head to some degree, either a lot or a little. But the fmris tell us it works every time. It's actually brain science experiments that completely back that up, which is why the people that we coach make deals much faster. Because instead of emphasizing the negative or the positive, instead of emphasizing the positive, we go and we deactivate the negative.

So entering a negotiation, leading with the negative, with what those defenses are, and just acknowledging that they're there, acknowledge the.

Elephant in the room is really what it is. Nobody ever made the elephant in the room go away by either ignoring it or denying that it was there. You make the elephant in the room either go away or at least diminish by saying, hey, look, there's an elephant in the room. There it is. Look at it. Take a look at. Looks pretty horrible, doesn't it? And when you approach it that way, people go like, ah, nah, it ain't that bad. I mean, if I get a contentious negotiation coming up, what I'll say is, I got a lousy proposition for you, and I'm gonna go dead silent, and you're gonna give it some thought. And I've literally had people say to me, well, lousy proposition's better than no proposition. What do you got?

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That's shocking because yet again I go back to this is the opposite of what everyone has been taught, right?

Right. Which is why the people we train have such a competitive advantage. It's almost unfair.

And these are very basic principles. But because we've been doing it the wrong way for so long, just myself, as much as I've immersed myself in your book and your content, I have to really stop and think, no, that's the way I was approaching it before. This is a better way to do it now, right?

Yeah. And the hard part about that is if people have obtained a level of success with a less effective method, they're like, look, you can't tell me I haven't been successful. And that's not what we're saying. We're just saying you haven't been as successful as you could have been. Your win rate's 10%, which is a great win rate. It should be 35 to 45. It takes you six months to cut a deal, should take you two weeks. But nobody around you is doing it faster than you. And so you don't know until somebody, until somebody black swan train passes you by and you wonder what happened.

So that surprises me. I didn't realize, I knew that the closing percentages or the percentage of you getting more of what you would want in negotiation would, would happen as a result of this training. However, I didn't realize that the deal cycle process would be shortened.

The deal cycle process is shortened overall. And also one of the biggest issues is who you shouldn't talk to at all anyway, because they're looking for free consulting. They're looking to play you off somebody else. They're looking to make you the fool in the game. We're doing a lot more coaching and real estate now than we were before. But these apply with everybody. This idea applies with everybody. One of the brokers that we're coaching, she started to keep stats. You know, I said, first of all, don't take my word for it, keep stats. There's a secondary advantage of keeping stats. It's called the Hawthorne effect. As soon as you start keeping track of stuff, you automatically get better at it. Just automatically. It's how we are as human beings. So she laid her statistics on us for the last year that we've been coaching her. She goes out on 80% fewer listing appointments. She closed the same number of listing appointments, going out 80% less. And she discounted her fee last year 50% of the time. The year she started our techniques, she only discounted 20% of the time.

Time.

So she worked 80% less and made a lot more money.

And a big part of that, you're saying, is from vetting the potential buyers to see who was a serious.

How do you vet early on, only stick to people that you've got a really good shot with. How do you get rid of the people you got no shot with? Why go out? Most people say, well, that's part of it. You got to do that. No, you don't. No, you don't. And that's in all business. There's a book out there called the Challenger set Sale. Because we started probably about two years ago, we started talking about, when are you the fool in the game? When are you never going to get the deal ever? And somebody said, yeah, the Challenger sale says that 20% of your opportunities are complete false opportunities. If somebody's trying to play you for the fool. And we took a look at that, and I'm like, yeah. Now, the Challenger sale, while a very interesting book, doesn't tell you what to do about it. We teach people what to do about it, and we think the numbers are actually much higher. Nearly everybody that we coach start to get much closer. In excess of 50% false opportunities. And this woman going out on 80% fewer opportunities. We're getting numbers as high as potentially 80% are just complete fake opportunities.

So how are you able to identify those earlier on?

Vision drives decision. So you got to get in their head what their vision is of where they're going and ask them in a way that finds out whether or not you're in question included. Like Hollywood producers trying to play me for a fool probably about eight months ago.

I would not advise that.

Well, it ain't gonna last long. You know, what they do is they say, you know, tell us your stories. They want my stories for free. And they say, how can we hire you as a consultant if we don't know what your stories are? You know, we have no idea. This is the classic scam. Everybody does that. It's not just Hollywood. And so I decided, all right, I'll test you out. I'll give you one story, but as soon as I give you one, I'm going to pivot. And I go, so if you move forward on this project, what's this going to look like? And he starts to outline at length the process, but his description of the future does not include me.

And he's giving it to you as he's sharing his vision.

Halfway through the vision, he suddenly realizes he's left me out of it. And I hear him hesitate. And then his description from that point forward includes me. And I'm like, all right, I just caught you. We're going to end this conversation, and we're never going to speak again.

Did you end it with him that way?

I said, you know, I just. He wanted. Well, once he did the description of the future, he said, okay, so you got another story. And I said, when we've made mutual commitments, I'll share more information with you.

You.

Because you always try to end things on a positive for a potential future, but to make it clear that we're not moving forward in this.

Exactly, yeah. And he said, well, you know, I'm not in a position to make a commitment yet. You know, I need to hear more information. I said, I only share more information with someone who's committed, made it, made a firm commitment. You know, we've got a written agreement, and until then, you know, I'm sorry, it's just not going to work.

So it's so funny, while you were explaining that scenario, which I highly empathize with, and I think it's hilarious that he tried to do that, too, two things popped into mind. One, I remember you sharing that there is only one way to tell the truth for a person.

Right? Yeah.

So had you acknowledged that, or were you watching and processing that leading into his vision?

I was looking mostly for his use of personal pronouns and his description of the future. Am I in his description of the future? Yeah. Or he was talking about a consultant in generic terms as he moved forward? Well, my company, we'd bring on a consultant. We'd do this, we'd do this. And then suddenly when. And then we'd work with you, and I saw him do the shift. I just need to get the vision in his head out. And yeah, I am subconsciously looking for changes in behavior that indicate he's out of the truth telling. He was telling me the truth when he first gave me the description, which didn't include mistakes. And he caught himself and moved forward. And it wasn't just this guy. A lot of people do this normally. Like, we don't respond to RFPs, period. You ask us for an RFP, we're not going to do it.

Request for a proposal for anyone who's not familiar with that acronym.

Yeah, sorry. And there are a lot of companies that do this stuff for free. They'll put significant amount of their intellectual property in an rfp. And we were talking to a company about some training probably six months ago. Now they've been conditioned for people to share a lot, share their IP free. So they, you know, they don't know how stupid that is. They've been taught it's a good idea. And they got mad at me when we wouldn't, we wouldn't submit the rfp. And it was very same conversation. I said, well, you know, that's how we teach is really highly proprietary. We're better at it than anybody else is. Well, how are we going to know if we like it if you don't tell us what it's like in advance? Now I know that they're going to take our structure and they're going to, at this point in time, they're most likely going to take it to the favorite and say teach like the Black Swan group does. And I say, now we don't. As soon as we have a mutual commitment, we'll be happy to do it. And they say, well, we're still shopping. And I go, okay, well, not going to outline a proposal to you. And they got a little miffed. And I said, I'm sorry, but the conversation's over.

That reminds me, and I couldn't agree with you more. When I first got into the speaking business and I didn't know how to create a speaker kit or a speaker one sheet, I found the best one I could find online. I knocked it off and made it unique to me essentially out of their structure. Right. But that's the same thing that they were going to try to do at a much deeper level when they gain that, that information. So I couldn't, I couldn't agree with you more. It reminds me of one of the chapters in your book where you're working with a consultant, I believe, who was Dealing with a company, a new CEO comes in and really tries to just tell her he's not going to pay for monies that are owed to her and strong arms her and you coach her through how to handle that and get a responsibility because the guy went dark on her. I'd love it if you could share a little bit about that technique.

Yeah, well the magic, you know, no is a great word. People feel safe and secure when they say no. So just take advantage of it. Change your questions. And one of the quickest responses, it hits them on an emotional level. Have you given up on X? And we told her to send this CEO a one line text that said have you given up on settling my bill? And amicably and there's no way this guy's going to say yes to that. There's just no way. Yes. It's a painful thing to say yes to. And even if he would have said yes, he'd rethink it because he just doesn't want to take that position. A lot of times you ask him a question they'll never say yes to. It's actually entertaining to do that. So and this question, have you given up on X? Have you given up on settling this bill? He's going to answer nearly immediately. Immediately. It's not unusual to get a response back in five minutes. Probably three to five minutes is probably the average to a no oriented. That no oriented question, one line text or the only thing in an email and it's got to be in the subject line, nothing else. Three to five minutes is probably the average. Thirty minutes max. But you're going to get an answer fast and be ready because they're going to answer fast. Now you got to be ready. You got to be follow up working to get a that's right out of them when they respond to you. You cannot go back into the pitch that caused them to go dark on you in the first place. That's the biggest mistake a lot of people make. You know there's a saying, the system you have is designed to perfectly give you the outcome you got. So if your communication approach you're pitching, you're making your case, whatever you're doing, you're making your argument cause them to go stop responding. You can't go back to that because it's going to make them stop respond again. So the critical issue after you've reengaged is to get a that's right out of them. Summarize the situation from their perspective, especially the stuff about you they're mad about. Because it's back to the elephant in the room. There's an elephant in a room. Call the elephant in a room. You know, you feel. You probably think call it out.

Instead of, I understand. You feel, you feel right.

Good point. Good catch. Really good catch. Or, look, if. And the only time you want to drop the word I into calling out the negatives is like, if you know. And this is especially useful with a significant other. Like your significant other is mad at you. You gotta say, I know you're mad at me. You can't say, you probably angry with me.

That would really piss someone off.

Well, I had an ex wife pretty much burst into flames in front of me once. But I used a basic label format. And I said, and by the way, there's only one ex so far.

Vision for your future.

Yeah, there you go. Future. The future ex Mrs. Voss. You're the only ex Mrs. Boss. You know, I'm a hostage negotiator at the time. I'm on a suicide hotline. I mean, I got my skills good. Which is the basic label. You sound X. And on a suicide hotline, they're always angry. So you start, you sound angry. So she was mad at me, and I said, you sound angry. And she. I thought it was a nuclear explosion. I think I got brain matter on my face the way she blew up. In hindsight, you know, you don't want. And with a significant other, There are times when you don't want to be tentative. A label is designed to be sort of an exploratory pro. You know, you seem upset. But when you. In a moment in time when you know they're angry. It's appropriate to not say, I understand you're angry. Say, I know you're angry. I know you're angry. Because they want you to know. Depending upon your relationship with a particularly significant other. They don't want you to be tentative about how they feel. They want to know, you know. And it goes an awful long way in a relationship if you say, look, I know you're angry. I know this made you upset. And that's a 2 millimeter shift for people that you're really close to. Or it's important that they know, you know. When I work with kidnapped victim families, kidnapped victim family, they're scared. They feel abandoned, they feel isolated. They're in the midst of actual traumatic stress. I got to walk into a living room. And I got to get them prepped for a call that might come from the kidnapper in the next five minutes. We don't have Time to dance around how they feel. I would walk into the room and I'd say, I know you're mad, I know you're scared. I know you've never felt this alone in your entire life. And they kind of stuck snap out of it. Because I identified all the negative emotions, deactivated them, and I let them know I knew. And for somebody to walk in the door that they've never met before, who instantly knows everything they're going through, they'll put everything in your hands. And they did.

And is the goal for them to say the two words that changes any negotiation? You're right. Right.

That's right. You're right. That's right is what we said to our spouse when we wanted them to stop talking to us. Everybody's done that. Everybody is a practitioner of your right to get somebody to shut up.

That's an excellent. That's an excellent point. That's right. Because they feel understood, they feel heard.

Yeah, it's when we were working on the book Tall Roz, genius guy. I know, you know, I talk about him all the time. Best business book writer alive. I mean a frigging genius. Everything he touches, everything he touches in business related becomes either New York Times or Wall Street Journal bestseller. He's got, he knows business books. But as we're working our way through this process, Tall referred to the that's right moment as triggering an epiphany in the other side. And the neuroscience tells us that when we experience an epiphany, we get a dump of serotonin and dopamine and the ever popular oxytocin, which is the bonding drug when your body's kicking out oxytocin as a result of an interaction. I mean, people have been trying to bottle it because it's a love drug. I mean, people. When you feel love, when you feel closeness, when you feel a connection with someone, you're getting hits of oxytocin epiphany moment. You get a hit of the same thing. And that's why you get a. That's right out of somebody. They don't know it, but they feel bonded to you. There's something about the interaction they feel a connection with. And that's why it's a breakthrough moment in negotiations. You get a. That's right out of somebody. Either you get a small epiphany, you get a big one, but you've strengthened the relationship, you strengthened their trust in you and you're opportunity to influence them. And then it's also very durable. I mean you want a relationship where you walk into the room and you haven't seen him for three years, and it was like you had lunch with them the day before you bonded. I mean, it's low maintenance. I mean, that's why. One of the reasons why we teach people the style of negotiation, they make deals faster. It takes less time when you get bonded to the other side.

You talk a lot about when you bring up speed and getting a deal done. You also talk a lot about the importance of patience.

Yeah, well, it comes to you quicker the more patient you are. You push less, you see more. If you're patient, your perspective opens. And there's a lot of data coming from the other side, a lot of information, you know, a lot of subtleties, a lot of cues. People will, in really subtle ways, signal discomfort. And if you're patient, you're much more in the moment. You're seeing the discomfort. And instead of thinking you got an agreement and run into the bank trying to cash a check, you might say, you know, you seem uncomfortable with this. Because if they're uncomfortable, there's problems coming and you got to get out in front of the problems.

And that's part of the importance of the how.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

How.

Yeah. People love to be asked how. First of all, it triggers a different mindset. It causes people to expand their perspective. So how am I supposed to do that? Is the best substitute for no that there is on Earth because somebody's trying to get you to do something that you got to say no to. First of all, you got to express that it's a problem. Secondly, if you have to say no to it, then the other person's perspective needs to be broadened. They need to see a bigger picture. And how am I supposed to do that? It doesn't matter if they answer. What matters is the thought process they go to before they answer and the thought process they will always go to. They'll take a step back, they'll see you and your problems and a context. They might not change their answer. But that wasn't the point. The point was to stop them in their tracks and get them to change their thinking. Thinking. And that's what that question always does.

And then where do you go from there? If they don't answer and you know, you've broadened their mind to the vision of what you're challenged with and how it isn't possible, then where would you go with that conversation?

Well, you now know they're not going to change. They're not going to change. If you say to somebody, how am I supposed to do that? And I go, because if you want the deal, you got to do it. What you've actually done is you've done your job. You need to find out whether or not there's any room for maneuvering on the other side.

Side.

You push them to their extreme limit and they haven't blown up on you. Most negotiations, you push the other side to that limit. They're screaming at you, they're slamming their hands down on the table, they're calling you names, all this negativity. This is a way to really find out the limits for the other side without triggering anger, while simultaneously that maintains a relationship. So you need to collaborate with people, but you also need to set limits. And it's one of the great ways.

To set is the how question.

Yeah.

And what happens when? Because I've been in plenty of negotiations like this, unfortunately, in corporate America, where it got to the point, I mean, banging fists on tables, yelling. What does that mean? From your expertise standpoint? Where do you go from there? When the other side is angry, visibly angry?

Well, first of all, is it a show or are they actually angry? A lot of shark negotiators know that shows of anger is a great way to manipulate the other side.

How so?

Because most people will, because anger makes them uncomfortable, will concede.

So they think they're going to get you to back down by just being a loud bully.

Yeah. And it works enough that people do it. And there's actually. It's one of those things. There's an academic study. It's called Strategic Umbrage, and we are against it 1000%. And anytime you hear a study that backs up a negotiation technique, look at how they got the data. Because the study says Strategic Umbrage Works was taken under simulated circumstances, simulated negotiations between students and universities. What does that mean? Number one, there's nothing to lose. Yeah, they got no skin in the game. Number two, even more importantly, though, they don't have an ongoing relationship. They're not in the same industry. They're not going to continue to bump into each other at trade shows, at the Starbucks, at the convention center, at the car dealer, where you bump into everybody that you do business with over and over and over again. You use anger on somebody, it's a negative toxin that eats away at the relationship. And as they say, revenge is the dish best served cold. They're going to really love paying you back somewhere down the line where they can pay you back with interest. It's just a really Bad seed to pay plan.

You just reminded me something that I was very surprised to hear, which is that terrorists are not one and done. They're repeat customers.

That's right. They. They stay in the business.

So to your point that if you're going to be in that same industry with someone, that you want to leave it in a mutually respectable, as much as you can situation where you're not fighting and name calling. But one of the stories I love so much that I really want to share with everyone, one is when you were coaching the negotiator with the $10 million fee for that, for the hostage and what that outcome was and the strategy that you deployed in order to have that massive success.

Yeah, we just, we finally just decided to get a that's right. Out of the guy. I mean, it was, it was, it was really insane. I didn't think that was going to be as big a breakthrough as it was. You know, I figured we get a. That's right. We'll get. We'll get pretty progress. And it had been stalemated for a while. And sometimes people are willing to try a new strategy that makes no sense because you stalemated. They figured it can't hurt. So we had to get the embassy, the ambassador to sign off on the strategy. But I said, look, all we're going to do, the terrorists, the sociopath, is get him to say, that's right. Next time we get him on the phone, he come up with all this nonsense about why he wanted $10 million for the hostage and why it was a suitable. He called it war damages instead of a ransom demand. 500 years of oppression from the Spanish to the Japanese to the Americans, and on and on and on and on. Typical argument where people are bringing up stuff from the past that don't matter. Everybody does that all the time and it doesn't matter. But that doesn't stop from bringing it up. So I coached my guy, said, you know what, we're just going to get to that, try it out next time we get him on the phone. All you do is summarize. Average everything. If you don't feel like you're laying it on thick, you're not laying it on thick enough. Summarize everything and add some stuff and everything you could think of go on and on and on and on until the only response from the sociopath on the other side. The sociopaths are vulnerable to empathy, too. This guy was a perfect case in point. The only response is, that's right, he's not going to be able to say anything other than that's right.

Right.

Hit it perfectly. We got him on the phone. My guy goes on at length. I don't know how long it took him to get everything out. Seemed like it took forever and he finally finished everything. And it was a moment of silence and a terrorist, the sociopath, the murdering, raping killer on the other side, straight out of the movies. Badass said, that's right. And there was a couple more moments of silence. And my guy says, you know, let's talk again in a couple days. And we went from $10 million to zero in that moment. It was gone. It was gone. And then ultimately the hostage walks away. Stories in the book. A couple months later, the hostage walks away, which means the bad guy's got nothing. They didn't get paid. Two weeks after the hostage walked away, the sociopath called my guy on the phone to congratulate him for how good good he was.

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Because he had such a strong connection to this person.

Yeah, he just. He didn't. He didn't understand it. He didn't know what it was. But he called him to pay his respects. He didn't call him angry. He didn't call him to threaten him. He called him and said to tell him that he was really good and that he should be promoted. He did a really great job. He was going to kill the American. He doesn't know why he didn't do it, but they should promote. That's what he called. Called to pay his respects. He lost everything. And something about he felt compelled to let the guy know that he respected him.

So something about being understood and feeling like someone cared and understood.

Everybody's vulnerable to being understood in just a massive way. And that's the great thing about it. Because it's not a substantive concession on your side on your part to understand the other side. But they feel like they got so much out out of it gives you tremendous advantage.

It's unfair when you see it that way. I've never seen it that way until now. So it's really eye opening for sure how much more money I could have made in my career. Okay.

How much you have coming in the future.

There you go. All right. Better. I like that. So the flip side of that, and I don't remember where I Heard you say this of where you have the hostage, the terrorists calling to say, great job. You have another situation where a terrorist started telling the negotiator, you're approaching this completely wrong because it's so systematic the way that you guys connect with these people, that these terrorists, they're expecting it almost.

Yeah, well. And he'd been negotiated with before, clearly, and he was just. He didn't know what it was and they can't put their finger on it, but he knew that somehow he felt influenced, bonded, not resentful, but influenced by the other guy. And so he gets back, he gets on the phone with another negotiator. Negotiator's not doing a good job. And he just, he tells him that, he says, you know, you're not doing a good job.

So it really is that systematic and clear. Once anyone can learn this approach, it's.

Completely learnable, Absolutely systematic. It's a process. It's like any other, learning how to do almost anything else. All you're going to do is put in the time and practice properly. You know, there's a saying, it's not practice that makes perfect. It's perfect practice that makes perfect. Like when people come to some of our trainings, I'll say this word for word exactly the way I'm telling you to say it. It's going to be hard, it's going to be excruciating, because everything inside you is going to say, this won't work. Ignore that. Say it exactly how I'm telling you to say it. Send an email. Send the text. Have you given up on doing business with me? Have you given up on our project? Have you given. Send it word for word. It's going to. If you've never done it before, the discomfort is going to feel like a root canal. But you've got to do it exactly the way we teach it for it to work.

And as you're talking about these questions that you can ask that are great and able to re engage people, one of the words that I remember you sharing not to use is why.

Well, why is why is a surgical strike. Why is also part of finding out whether or not you're the fool in the game. But here's the issue with why it makes everybody defensive. Why, when somebody may genuinely want to know why, when they don't care, they're not trying to accuse you of anything. But the problem is when they are accusing you of something, the first thing out of their mouth is always, why did you do that? Like your boss comes into your office and says, why did you make this contract? He ain't there to congratulate you. That's a problem. And my son Brandon, who runs my company, his theory is that globally, when we were two years old, anytime we broke something or did something wrong, the nearest adult to us, whether you were in the Middle east or whether you were in China, the nearest adult said, why did you do that? We got a beat into our head from an early day that, why is somebody telling us we're wrong? Being judgmental. So it triggers defensiveness. And I've seen it globally. I've negotiated kidnappings globally. And every kidnapper, if anybody ever accidentally asked them why they blew up on the other side, they felt like it was an attack on their autonomy, me. And it was an instant negative reaction. So why triggers defensiveness. So why is it a surgical strike versus a never use? By the way, just change your why to what? Instead of why did you do that? You say, what made you do that? You know, why. Was that your choice? What made that your choice? Change your why to a what. Takes the sting off of it instantly. Except if you want them to defend you. And if somebody calls the black swan group for negotiation training, in the first five to 10 minutes of that conversation, I'm going to say, you know, we got some great competitors out there. You could go to Harvard, you could go to Wharton. You could go to Kellogg. Why us?

Because you're trying to find out how committed they are to you, Right?

If they have an actual reason, if I'm not the fool in the game, they'll tell me why. If they respond with, well, why not you? I'm now the fool in the game.

But at least you got clarity.

I got some clarity. And I'm going to say, you know, I'm sorry, you know, I just don't think it's going to work out for us at this time. I'd love to help you in the future. We'd love to have built your future. But right now, I just don't think we're the right company for you. And I'll end the course.

Call one other really clear approach that is different than what's being taught out there, is we're taught in sales, get the potential client to say yes, to agree with you, to, yes, yes, yes, this, yes. Momentum. However, it's worked in many situations. What is that flip approach that you're teaching and why?

Well, and that. That's a problem with it working for some people, because people say, you can't tell me that I can't get deal is getting people to say yes, because I can and I'll say, yeah. And that's why. What's his name? The Wolf of Wall Street. In his book the Way of the Wolf, they talk about with the straight line selling method, 2% success rate. And a lot of people think, well, If I'm converting 2 to 3%, those are good. And what's his name? Jordan Belfort. Says, says, look, this doesn't sound like much, but if you run this many contacts on a monthly, weekly basis, and this is your success rate in a year, you get a million dollars. And people go, oh, a million dollars. Okay, so failure is part of the equation. No, it's not the yes, momentum is a problem. It violates people's human need for autonomy. They say AGS is a micro agreement or it's a tie down. And then when you get to the end, you got them tied down, they have to say yes. That's a violation of somebody's autonomy. It kills the relationship. It makes them want to get away from you as quickly as they can. Maybe you just got them into a deal that they were going to make anyway, but they resented the hell out of how you got them into it in the first place. And so that resentment is going to pay you back. The stupid thing is as bad as yes is no has a complete opposite effect. Nobody in my company says, does this look like something that would work for you? We say, is this a bad idea? Are you against doing this? Is this ridiculous? Is this a violation of everything you hold sacred? We trigger no on purpose and we move at light speed compared to the people that are doing yes.

Why? Because then they're taking ownership of it and defending why it's going to work for them.

Yeah. And then no. The word no makes people feel safe. When they say they feel safe and protected, then they can think more clearly and they can move forward more quickly, which is one of the reasons why you move forward so much faster. Or ideally what you're looking for. Let's say a salesperson is not trying to trap somebody. You're respectfully saying, does this look like something that might work for you? You're respectfully trying to find out if you're on firm ground. You're just looking for confirmation. Yes. And actually the salesperson is, by that question, is hoping for what about it doesn't work so that we can anticipate problems. The problem is people feel trapped by yes. So every word that comes out of their mouth about yes after yes, if they're tentative, they feel more tied down, which means they're not going to tell you what the problems are. So if you just flip it over and you say, is this a bad idea? Does this not work for you? And they'll say, no, it's not a bad idea, but here are the following problems. Bang, bang, bang. And they'll lay them all out, which they would not have laid out after a yes because they're not ready to commit. They don't feel like they committed when they say no. So they can give you a bunch more information because they don't feel trapped by it. Then you can really work the deal out.

Such a different way of approaching it. I can't wait to try it. I'm so excited.

Oh, it's nuts.

It sounds crazy. It sounds uncomfortable, which means I'm all in. So I know we're running out of time and no one gets off this show without sharing. When in your life have you struggled most with your confidence?

When I'm not paying attention. There's a certain amount of maintenance, you know, positive thinking maintenance that's required. And, you know, you got to do it every day. I think maybe the best analogy is like oral heinous hygiene. I don't have to brush my teeth today because I brushed them twice yesterday. No, that's not the case. You still got to go in and brush, you know, so the mental spiritual hygiene. You have to get into a practice on a regular basis of like, whatever your routine is. Gratitude has become a cliche. But gratitude works. It puts you in a proper mindset. You know, I'm lucky to be facing these problems. So I'll struggle with my confidence if I'm not keeping up. Up on my gratitude, if you will. Letting go of negativity, which then it begins to have a snowball effect. Maybe I'll let myself get out of practice. You know, I will. I'll get impatient. And then it all starts to snowball. And you know, on any given day, in any given week, I probably. If I haven't been taking care of myself, I probably lost some of my copies. Confidence. He's got to go back in and do the maintenance.

It's just like hitting the gym, showing up every day, doing the reps. Yeah.

Do you have to work out today because you worked out last week? Yes, you do.

I wish it wasn't the case, but you are absolutely right, my friend. All right, Chris, so how can everyone find out about your newsletter about. Never split the difference about Black Swan?

All right? The best thing to do Is subscribe to the newsletter. The newsletter. Newsletter is free. It's a good price. But better than that is the fact that it's concise and actionable. Some people's newsletters have like 10 articles. You don't know what to read. One concise, actionable article comes out on Tuesday mornings. Going to hit your inbox? Probably I think about 8 o' clock or so, depending upon what time zone you're in. I mean, we want it to be digestible for you to get your day started, to get negotiation thinking going so you're going to have an advantage on the day. So best way to subscribe is to via text send. The message you send is FBI empathy, all one word. Don't let your spell check.

Put a space between FBI and empathy.

FBI empathy, empathy. Send it to. The number you text to is 22. 8. That's 22828. You get a response back asking you for your email. We'll sign you up. Newsletter is a gateway to everything. We put out a lot of free content. It's a gateway to the website. There's free stuff on a website. Blackswanltd.com there's training that we provide. We provide some immersion, intense training. You guys, you have to have read the book to come to one of our training sessions. We got an exercise called 60 seconds or she dies. And one of the guys that volunteered for that exercise recently, he was wearing an apple watch and he said his heart rate shot up to 175. But you know what, if we don't train you for the toughest negotiation you'll ever be in, then we haven't trained you enough. We want you to, to be ready for anything. And it's. And it all flows from subscribing to the newsletter.

All right, so check out the newsletter. You've got to get the book. Never split the difference. And Chris, I know you've got a stage to hit, so thank you so much for your time today. And how about you on social media? Where, where can they find you on Instagram?

The FBI negotiators on. On Instagram.

Gotta check them out.

Thank you.

We'll be right back. I hope you loved hearing it from Chris as much as I learned learning from him. His book is fantastic. I actually not only did I buy his book, I also bought the summary of his book because to me there was just so much information. I wanted to be able to go in and highlight and really take key points away and reference back. You know, learning is an ongoing process. And reading, listening to podcasts These are all such great ways for us to download information. But for me, frequency sells and I need to continually see messages if I want to learn something new. I actually thought about taking his black swan course just because the more we immerse ourselves in information obviously the better we're going to get at his negotiation tactics and strategies. And, and to me they're very different from what I have used before, but I am starting to implement them. I'm super proud of myself. I used some of his tactics yesterday and, and it worked. So thank you, Chris. So I got a lot of questions came into me and if you ever have questions, hit me up on DM, on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, wherever or you can email me at my website, Heather monahan.com just click the contact us button, shoot me your questions and I am happy to answer them here. But before I get started with that, I wanted to share that it is super bowl week in Miami and as you know, I live in Miami and, and it's going to be crazy. I have over committed myself to so many things because again, I believe when opportunities there, you need to jump on it and jump all in. So I actually, one of my old colleagues from the radio business reached out to me and said, hey, I'm doing a show in the stadium, I would love for you to come down. And I said done, done and done. How can I help and add value for you? And he said if there's any way you can help me find a, an intern. I posted on social media for him. I reached out to a few people, I found him a couple of people. So, you know, anytime that we can give back and help others, it definitely strengthens that bond and that relationship. Even if it's just somebody that you work with, you know, I always want to go the extra mile for people that are there working with me and helping me out. So I'm super excited. This is never before have I been behind the scenes at the super bowl, you know, doing shows and, and recording with talent that you know is broadcasting the Super Bowl. So this is super exciting opportunity. I can't wait to share it with you. You are going to get it live from the big game next week and it's, it's going to be a little bizarre. I don't know what to expect. But I've actually, I've booked so many different shows that I'm going on. I'm going to Fort Lauderdale to do some, there's some recordings happening out there to the stadium to do some, some and I'M also meeting with a lot of past vendors and partners from the radio business that everyone is coming in from all over the country for the game and I've set up just back to back meetings next week. So really trying to capitalize on this opportunity, having so many people in town. I'm super excited about it. I can't wait to share with you what happens. Who knows what it's going to be. It's going to be fast paced and busy, but it's going to be good. So putting it out there, I'm super excited. Okay. I got this on my Instagram. Heather, I have a question. What do you suggest a woman do to expand her network and collaborate more? Okay, well, first of all, like, let's get clear. What do you mean you want to meet more people? You want to, you know, collaborate more, you want to work with people? I'm not clear on exactly what that means. I will tell you this. The best way to network is to just show up, right? So there's always. It's like me going to the super bowl event. I don't know if I'm going to be the only girl there. Am I, am I going to be odd man out? Probably happens all the time. However, I know that I could make some contacts and create some opportunities that I otherwise would not. So why wouldn't I go? You need to start showing up and saying yes to events. And if you're not being invited to events, start researching what events are happening. I'm sure if I researched super bowl events in Miami, I'm sure there's a ton of them that are just publicly available to any, anyone. So it's about showing up, putting yourself in those situations that you're not prepared to walk into and putting your phone away. Whenever I go into a new event or a new opportunity, I like to research the people that will be there. So I have some insight and intel into who they are that's going to help me to connect with them in any way that I can, know a little bit about them. I can start a conversation around, oh, hey, I know you're from Philadelphia.

Oh my God.

Gosh, I used to spend a lot of time there for work. I love, blah, blah, blah, you know, that's going to create some type of connection with you and that person and start a conversation. Put your phone away. I forced myself to put my phone in my purse, leave it in the car, whatever it may be. Because if you bring your phone in, if you're holding it, it's giving you that excuse not to talk to people. What's the freaking point of going to an event if you're not going to talk to people? If you're going to sit in the corner and put your head down on your phone, just stay at home. Save your. Don't fool yourself, right? So give yourself a goal. I. My goal is I'm going to meet a minimum of five people. I'm. I'll just give you this example. Going to the super bowl event. I'm going for two days behind the scenes and I heard Katie Couric is going to be that there's a lot of celebrities that are going to be there. My goal will be that every single opportunity to bring a potential guest onto this show. Show. I'm going to go for the ask. I'm going to go for the close. I'm going to try to find ways to bring value and connect with these people. So give yourself a goal. Get specific around the goal. Those that deal in specific seldom fail. Those that deal in generality seldom succeed. Don't forget that. Get really clear on what your goals are and go for it. What is the worst that can happen? I'm constantly asking myself this question. I was having a bad day last week and a friend of mine called me and I said, oh, why are you calling me right now? I'm so annoyed. I'm having the worst day. And he said, all right, break it down. What's, what's the problem and what's the worst that can happen? And when we broke it down like that, the worst wasn't that bad. And I thought, you know what, thank you. Thanks for giving me that shift in perspective. I was getting all caught up with something around what ifs and what if this. But the reality is, okay, let's take it to the absolute worst thing that could happen. And I'm going to you let live. I'm going to bounce back. I'm going to pivot. Micro challenge, macro opportunity, keep it moving. So if you want to network, you want to meet people, you want to collaborate, you got to put yourself out there. It's on you. Do your homework, show up, put your phone away and just be you. So that would be my advice around networking and connecting with people. It really is not that hard. It's just about you being you, showing up and putting yourself out there.

There.

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And the best part, FreshBooks grows alongside your business so you'll always have the tools you need when you need them without ever having to learn the ins and outs of a cat accounting. Thank God. Join the 24 million people who views FreshBooks. Try it for free for 30 days. No catch and no credit card required. Go to freshbooks.com confidence and enter. Creating confidence in the how did you hear about us? Section to get started. We appreciate it. Okay, so another question that I got. I love my questions that you all send me. This one came to me actually at through link LinkedIn. So, Heather, I have an idea for your podcast. Have you thought about doing one on salary negotiations? Well, here's the thing. That's really what we talked about today with Chris Voss, right? How to negotiate when you go into a salary negotiation. And again, Chris is the king on this. This is exactly what we talked about in this whole interview today. His style, strategy and tactics are give them a shot, practice them and read the book and really dive into them if you want to improve in your negotiation. But when it comes to salary negotiation, it's about knowing your value, understanding your leverage. Right? Desperate is not going to work if you're desperate. If you're feeling I'm lucky to have this job, you are setting yourself up for failure. I like to approach it in a business manner, you know, listing why do I warrant this job, why I am I special and unique for this job? Am I being paid what I'm worth? What does this look like outside of this company? You know, would I be making more money if I went to another company? What does that opportunity cost for a company if they were to lose an employee? It's tremendous. It's massive. And that's why recruiting firms make so much money. You know, nothing is more important than people. And you really need to think to yourself, you know, what unique value do I bring and how can I put a dollar amount on the that? And once you get clear on that, then you want to put yourself in the other person's shoes. Right? So, you know, when is the best time to ask for this meeting? You know, can I bring the reviews and recommendations that I've amassed up until this point? Have we had prior conversations around when is the next time I'll be up to the next level? You know, did Joe just get a raise? You know, get a landscape and a vision of what's happening around the company. If they plan for these things, is Q4 when they're budgeting and planning and then do they implement raises in Q1? You know, really take a big picture look because that's having a deep understanding of how a company operates will help you plan, position and negotiate better. Doesn't mean you can't get a raise right now, by the way, because I've also done that myself. I'll never forget when I was younger in corporate America saying I needed to, I needed to advance myself and I needed to make more money. Well, number one, deal with the ultimate decision maker. Because if you're not, you're not going to be able to get found money, right? If they say, oh, we only do that in Q4, and right now it's Q2, so it's not going to happen. Well, get to the ultimate decision maker. They will find a way to shuffle dollars around. There's always a way if you're dealing with the person that holds that pen. So make sure you get to them. Then the timing is on you. And sometimes you have to force a hand. That's what I did. I was just at a point where I wasn't making enough money. I wasn't challenged enough in my job, and I frankly didn't care anymore. So when you have that attitude, you hold all the cards, my friend. So I just said, hey, you know, I'm really talented. I'm very good at what I do. If you guys don't want to pay me what I'm worth, I'll just go somewhere else and do it. And so I started, I think this is important. I started conversations. I started reaching out to competitors in different marketplaces and found out what I could get paid working for other people. People, which was so much more than I was making at the time, found some jobs that were far ahead of where I was and started, you know, first rounds of negotiations with these people showing a high level of interest. I knew I could get the job. And that's when I went back to my boss at my old job and let him know, hey, here's the Thing I know we've discussed this. I understand that you're not able to get me additional dollars. However I warn it, I'm worth it. It and other companies are willing to pay me. So at this point, if you're not going to be able to, I will understand that. But I wanted to give you this first right of refusal. I'm going to go ahead and move on. And that changed everything. And actually in that moment, I found out I was not dealing with the ultimate decision maker. He went out and called his father, and once his father got brought into the loop that I might leave, I got the raise, I got the job. So again, you have to assess what your willingness and risk, your. Your willingness to take on risk and to jump into something. How bad do you want it? And another piece of advice that I would share is that put yourself in that decision maker's shoes. What's driving their decision making? And Chris talks about this a lot in his book. People typically are operating out of wanting to feel safe and, you know, fear. So are they afraid of losing you? Are they afraid of failing if they don't have it? You try to get into their head and what's driving their decision making because the more we can empathize and understand and connect with them around that, the sooner and faster you're going to be able to achieve your goal, which is what we want you to do for sure. So from Annie, the creators of Cold Case Files, comes your next true crime podcast, Obsessions PD Stories. Every week, law enforcement professionals join host Tom Morris Jr. From America's Most Wanted it and Live PD to share their experiences, insights and perspective on policing. You are not going to want to miss this show. Be sure to subscribe on Podcast 1, Apple Podcasts and many other podcast apps so you can get the new episodes every week. Okay, so hopefully I shed a little bit of light around salary negotiation. For more. I mean, please check out the master and check out his book. It's never split the difference. Chris Boss negotiating as if your life depended on it because his literally did negotiating for hostages. And again, it's just a completely different way of negotiating. I'm so excited we got the chance to meet with him. Hope you got as much value from him as I did. Now, here's where I need you. Here's my big ask. If you would please leave me a review, take a screenshot of it and send it to me DM to my website anywhere and I buy you my $299 confidence video course as a big thank you. I value you. I value your time. When you share on social media that you love the show, I will retweet, repost. I'll throw it up on my Insta stories. I will celebrate you, I will tag you, and I'm super grateful for you. So until next week, keep creating confidence.