#440: Why Your Attachment Style Shapes EVERYTHING with Dr. Judy Ho, Expert Clinical & Forensic Neuropsychologist

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I'm ready for my close up.

Hi and welcome back. I'm so excited for our guest this week. Dr. Judy Hope, PhD, ABPDN, is a triple board certified and licensed clinical and forensic neuropsychologist, tenured associate professor at Pepperdine University, and author of Stop Self Sabotage and an avid researcher and two time recipient of the National Institute of Mental Health Services Research Award. Dr. Judy maintains a private practice where she specializes in comprehensive neuropsychological assessments and expert witness work. She's often called on by the media as an expert psychologist and is sought after for public speaking for universities, businesses and organizations. Dr. Judy received her bachelor's degree in Psychology and business administration from UC Berkeley and her master's and doctorate from SDSUUCSD joint doctoral program in clinical psychology. Dr. Judy, thank you so much for being here.

Oh, thank you so much, Heather, and so excited to join you. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast.

Okay, I want to get into your new book, the New Rules of Attachment and I want to start here. For anyone listening that's saying attachment. What is attachment? You know, like, why do I even care?

Yeah, well, it's relevant to everybody. It's a universal process that we all go through. Our first attachment bonds as human beings are crucial to our survival because as babies and as young children, we literally could not survive without an adult looking after us and at least attempting to meet our needs. And it's through these really early relationships that we develop our sense of self, who we are in this world, what we think people are going to do when we say that we have a need or express a desire. And also ultimately it goes into whether or not you believe you deserve good things in this life.

Wow.

Okay, so that does impact everybody. And I will tell you, I was a psych major a million years ago, right. And so super familiar with the impact of our childhood on our lives. But I never really stopped to think about that there were these different attachment styles and that it's universal and that this could actually be something. If I could educate myself on that, I could empower myself more at work and personal relationships wherever and understand myself better. So I'm so grateful you wrote this book and brought my attention to this. I started with taking your quiz, which was incredible. I'm going to link your quiz for everybody in the show notes. It was frustrating, it was eye opening and it Freaked me out because you nailed it. And how many quizzes like this have you gone through? And like, what are you seeing when people take the quiz?

I think that people usually have a pretty significant reaction to the quiz because maybe they thought that they knew themselves or that perhaps they understood how their attachment style was manifesting. And I think through the quiz they're thinking, oh my gosh, it's not just my romantic relationships. I can see this showing up in different areas of my life. A lot of people also have this reaction that, well, I thought that I was just one attachment style, but actually, once I looked at the quiz, actually was a combination of two styles, and that's actually very common and something that people don't usually know about themselves. And so I think that some of the times people have told me that it was very, really helpful for them to understand how attachment can show up for them at work, in their personal goal pursuits, in their friendships, in their family relationships, in addition to romantic relationships, and also, most importantly, in their sense of self, how good they feel about themselves and their self esteem.

One of the reasons I love your new book is because not only do you explain in detail each one of the different attachment styles, but when you through the quiz, you figure out what you are, because I wasn't sure what I would be right. And once you figure that out, you can go to that portion of the book, read about your attachment style. And then my favorite part is that you share how to heal it. And I'm on a personal journey to heal myself to the highest level that I can and reach the best version of me while I'm on this planet, for sure. I'm so here for it. And this is something, this is work I've never done and information I've never really accessed. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the journeys people are having as they are doing this work?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that mostly attachment really affects the foundation of how we talk to ourselves, our self talk. So when people struggle with negative self talk, they oftentimes don't realize that the root of that is attachment wounds that haven't been resolved. And so I think a lot of the transformation that happens with my clients starts with recognizing that they have this negative self talk that is just so pervasive, that's causing all of this chaos and problems in their lives. It's causing self sabotage. It's causing them to feel bad about themselves, to struggle with depression and anxiety, and that once they understand where the roots are and learning to have A more balanced self talk. I mean, you're still going to have negative self talk sometimes. It's just obviously very, very normal for human beings to sometimes have our thoughts be somewhat catastrophic or even demeaning to ourselves. But it's really about removing those most painful pieces of it. And why is that happening? And why do you believe that you don't deserve good things? Or why do you think you have to behave in a certain way to get love and care and support from other people? Once they're able to release those types of expectations and understand where they're coming from, that's when they see the cascade of positive outcomes in the different areas of their lives.

So I think we all understand how attachment can show up for us in our personal, romantic lives. Right? I mean, that seems kind of obvious, like you're either the clingy person or you're the person pushing people away or.

Right.

So we all have our own understanding of that. But how does something like attachment show up at work?

Well, attachment can show up at work because when you have an insecure attachment style, you're driven by different motives in terms of survival or thriving in that world. So people with avoidant attachment tend to be sort of really focused in on their achievements, essentially doing the best that they can at their job, but kind of at the cost of any kind of personal relationships or collegial relationships. They can struggle with delegation. They can struggle with working collaboratively in teams. And when they do have stressors, when they do have problems at work, instead of actually enlisting the help of people around them who could assist, they just end up going into themselves and withdrawing, which, of course, actually holds them back from more success at work. And then somebody with anxious attachment, they're more likely to predicate all of their behaviors on how somebody else might be thinking about them, whether it's a colleague or a supervisor trying to do the guesswork of, well, what do they really mean by that statement? Or having to have a little bit more handholding, needing more validation before they move forward. And of course, that can get in the way of them having a better workplace and environment, as well as being able to achieve their goals in their career if they continue to behave in those ways.

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I asked you to try.

To Find your passion. So the minute I hear stuff like this, I'm like, oh, I want to go fix them. I want to help them. Is that a natural response? Or like, that's. I know that's not the answer because I'm not a doctor. Doctor. I'm not you. But what is the best way, once you have this information, to empower it, to do something good with it?

Yeah, you know, I think that, of course, you know, you being in the helping profession, you caring about people, that's going to be your natural inclination, is like, let me try to fix this issue. But I think that for a lot of people who are struggling with attachment, or if they see it in somebody that they care about, it's really about understanding and meeting them where they are. So meeting yourself where you are and meeting them where they are. So the person is not gonna be healed overnight. Right. This might take a little bit of a gradual process where you start to see the healing in pieces, until one day you're saying, okay, like, now I feel like I'm a more secure, attached version of myself. But before then, there's gonna be certain triggers to their insecure attachment behaviors. And there's also gonna be some ways that they prefer to communicate in order to function while they're still healing. And so it's helpful to just know, okay, what is it that they really need right now without making this problem worth. Without essentially almost condoning what they're doing. So one example is anxiously attached people, they do need more validation. You don't want to overdo it, but to start a conversation with them, that might be difficult. It's helpful to start with something positive. It's helpful to say, hey, you know what? I really appreciate you doing X. However, I do need to bring a problem to your attention. I was hoping we can discuss it. If you start with the problem people with anxious attachment, they really will have a hard time staying in the conversation without becoming even more needy for validation or just completely shutting down because they can't deal with it. And so just knowing their patterns and meeting them where they are, knowing the triggers for some of their more unproductive behaviors, is a helpful place to start.

Oh, my gosh, this is so funny. I do solo episode every week, and this weekend, I did a solo episode, and it was about what I saw with someone being triggered at a restaurant. And it was so shocking to me. Obviously, that's not where I'm at now. Probably it could have been me certainly 20 years ago, but I saw a woman in a great Conversation with a man and they clearly liked each other and you know, they had just met and they were super into each other and it seemed great. And then he said something that she did not like. It was a trigger, right? I don't know exactly what it was. Her entire body moved. She didn't want to look at him. It was like a toddler throwing some type.

Right.

But then what was equally as interesting, instead of him saying, being really curious, like, oh my gosh, are you okay? You know, what's going on? He threw the same level of tantrum behavior and then the two yelled at one another and went separate ways. And it was such an interesting thing to watch that because it is definitely not where I'm currently at. However, to your point, it's about meeting people where they are. So does that mean they just had the same issues with attachment and just triggered each other?

Yeah. You know, when you have that bigger emotional response, that's when you know that that was a trigger. Right. It's like, okay, not that I don't deserve to be upset, but to this level, like that's when you kind of know. So I think that probably one of two things was happening. One is they, they both have actually the same exact attachment style and that's why they reacted in that way. But I also think that certain attachment styles, they will tend to trigger one another with what they're looking for. So the most common coupling that people talk about, especially in romantic partnerships, is anxious attachment and avoidant attachment. The anxious person will like chase the avoided attachments affections. The avoidant attachment person is saying, hey, you know what, I need my space. But then once the anxious attachment person says, you know what, I give up, like I'm never going to get what I need from you. And they actually do start to go away, then the avoidantly attached person starts to chase them back because like, wait a minute, like what am I missing? Right? And then it becomes a challenge for them. And so I think that sometimes it could also be illustrative. Like what you say said just now could just be illustrating that they're both triggering each other's issues and defenses with what they're saying and what they're doing.

Oh my God.

You just described my eight year relationship with my ex fiance. Okay, so I'll tell you right now, I'm avoidant, fiercely independent. It's pretty accurate, right? However, this is why I got upset, Dr. Judy, is I've done so much work that I was getting mad at the quiz because I had to answer stuff from my earlier life and I'm like, no, I don't want this to count anymore. I understand. Right, I get it. But I was like, I'm a better version of me now. So can you like phase out or are you always going to be that same attachment?

No, I think that that's a misconception. That again, I think maybe a lot of like pop psychology, what's out there kind of makes you think it's like a personality trait that, okay, you just have to deal with it. Here's how you deal with it, here's your characteristics, and here's what you have to do to manage. I don't think that's true. I think that we all develop, especially if you have attention to it. You're somebody who's super into self development. You have these goals of wanting to continue to develop throughout life. So of course you're healing from it. I think for a lot of people, it's more about these shadows of their earlier attachment style that might come up in the most inconvenient circumstances. Like maybe 90% of the time you're walking around, you're saying, I'm pretty much behaving like a securely attached person. But then when you're in a super stressful situation, you don't have time to quite get your bearings and you're in distress. That's when you might fall back to one of those earlier patterns and you're like, oh man, I really wish I didn't do that. Or like, oh, why did I do that? I know that that's not the best way to cope and I still did that. You know, I think that that's probably what happens to a lot of people when they're already working on themselves. But this is kind of how that earlier imprinting can still come back sometimes. As long as you know how it's impacting you, obviously you can get back on track. Right? But I am similar to you. I have shadows of avoidant attachment still, even though I believe that I am now behaving mostly like a securely attached person. But I notice that when I'm stressed, it's very hard for me to reach out for help. Like, I just start withdrawing. Like, I don't want to have conversations, right? Like, people text me, how are you? And I'm like, I don't even want to unpack that. Because if I answer that, either I'm going to be lying or I'm going to have to get into it. And I don't want to get into it. Right. I'd rather have essentially conversations with people where I'm asking about them or we're sharing something positive. Like I don't want to say, well, by the way, I'm having the most stressful day and blah blah blah, and I can't figure out this problem that's just not me. But I have to try to encourage myself to say, you know, but don't disconnect though, right? Can you think of a way that you can stay connected without having to go into all of it? So that's a challenge that I still have for myself today.

So so with the same style, same.

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Okay, so what are some of the ways and this is, this is important for parents with your children, with understanding coworkers, your neighbors. Right. Like the more you can educate yourself, the more empowered you are to be understanding and like you said, meet people where they are. How can people start helping themselves to minimize the or mitigate the risk or minimize the negative parts of their attachment styles?

Yeah, I think the first step is just acknowledgement. I think that sometimes people are just so vehemently in denial about, okay, this might be an area that I need to work on. So I think that first step is just acknowledging, hey, this is an issue. Guess what? Most people have this issue. So a recent study showed that about 75% of people said that they have some form of insecure attachment. And you have to think that this is the proportion of people who are being honest. Right. There are some people who are like, yeah, I'm secure. And then their family member or romantic partner is like, are you sure? Because I don't think so. Right. So I think it's at least 75% of the population just like knowing that and just not shaming yourself for it. I mean that's important. And then I think the next piece is just to learn practical strategies. Sometimes I think people won't do attachment based work because it feels so deep and it feels so vast. It's like, well, if it's affects all the parts of my life, like how am I supposed to impact that? And the good news is you can do it a step at a time with concrete strategies. I share a lot of strategies in my book that you can do in a few minutes just to start making some progress. Right. And over time you're going to see all of those things add up and you're going to have those major shifts. Wow.

Oh my gosh.

It's so eye opening to think about it through this lens and truly trying to understand it. And also taking you back to what a profound impact how you grow up has on your day today. And like you said, in the moments where you're at your worst, so you're not being thoughtful about it. When you just start reacting out of your subconscious is actually when you're bringing all this back up, which is crazy. This is worth the time to do the work. What are some or can you share a story with us? Someone that you've worked with, who's been able to, who had some issues around their attachment style and has been able to work through them.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I had recently a client who was actually disorganized attachment, which a lot of people think is the most tough one to heal from. I think that that's not necessarily true, although it tends to be a bit complicated because a lot of people with disorganized attachment did experience really major stress when they were young or some form of trauma. And so this particular individual was already in her 70s. It was a very, very challenging time for her because she had just started to kind of come to terms with some of these earlier traumas that she had packed away for decades. And it was wreaking havoc in all these areas of her life. She developed kind of like a later life alcohol problem. Her family relationships were rupturing, like she wasn't able to function on a day to day basis. So she ended up at a residential treatment facility. And when I first started working with her, she was so angry. It was like a lot of lashing out, a lot of testing, a lot of like, I don't trust you, Go away, Don't get near me. And eventually, you know, through helping her to understand attachment and helping her to know that there are pro social, productive relationships you can have with people, but that obviously it takes time and you want to start in small places, you know, starting to entrust somebody with something small when that works, giving them a little bit more leeway and trusting them a bit more, you know, over this period of time, over the three months I was working with her, by the end of the three months, obviously it's not that her work was done, but I mean, she was just the most loving, gentle and kind person underneath what seemed like a ton of anger in the beginning. And so I think that again, that is usually the defense of someone who can't really deal with the distress of not feeling like they're cared for in life. You know, feeling like they're alone. Oftentimes it's like a survival strategy for them to lash out and to have anger that way. And I think that over time she realized, well, that doesn't have to be my protective armor anymore. And there may be some other ways to interact with people that would be helpful and helpful to me, but also helpful to them.

One of the things I think your work does for people is it makes you understand, no matter who the person was, whether it was a boss throwing something at you or a significant other that you were in love with leaving you, suddenly when you start understanding these attachment Issues. You realize this really wasn't about you. Some of us listening.

Maybe it is about you.

I don't know what you did, but maybe if you're saying right now, now I understand what the interaction was and why we split up. I didn't get it at the time, but now I'm getting it. Do you have a lot of those aha moments with people?

Yeah, I think that a lot of times that that change tends to happen when I link it to. This is the voice that you talk to yourself in. You know, this is the same statements that you tell yourself. Every single insecure attachment style and secure attachment style has certain self statements that they tend to say to themselves repeatedly as like a pattern. Like, for example, people with avoidant attachment. They may think things along the lines of, I'm only as good as my last achievement. I must be in control at all times. I should keep others at arm's length, you know? And then people with anxious attachment might have thoughts like, I need to rescue everyone. I fear being on my own. I have to analyze everything. And obviously these types of thoughts will really color and characterize how somebody responds to the different challenges in their relationships, as well as how they go about career development and. And how they go about their personal wellness goals. It really affects all of these different areas of your life at a high level.

Can you define the different attachment styles for everyone listening?

Yeah, absolutely. So the anxious attachment style is one of the three insecure attachment styles. And individuals with this particular style tend to crave closeness and reassurance in relationships, but also worry excessively about abandonment and rejection, and this leads to clingy or overly dependent behaviors. Avoidantly attached people tend to prefer extreme self sufficiency and may feel uncomfortable with emotional intimacy or expression, and they tend to minimize the importance of relationships. The disorganized attachment. They often find themselves in a state of fight or flight, and they have struggles regulating their feelings and may unconsciously replicate the chaos they experience as children.

And then there's the secure style.

Yes, the secure style. So somebody who is secure generally will tend to feel pretty good about themselves for the most part. When they have problems, they tend to roll up their sleeves and say, I can get through it. There's going to be a way out of this. They can stay connected with people even when they're going through problems and also lean on others while at the same time feeling pretty comfortable on their own. And so it doesn't mean that you have no problems in life, but it does mean that generally you have more resiliency and that you believe in yourself.

You said the most popular one or the most common one is the anxious.

I think that it's actually pretty split evenly. I think that anxious and avoidant are probably the ones that people talk about the most. But when you look at the research, it kind of looks like it breaks down pretty evenly overall, like 20 to 25% for each.

Even for the secure.

Yeah. Well, again, those are the people who are being completely honest. I think that probably more. More likely than not, we have a little bit less than 20% of people who are secure, and then the other three types probably mostly evenly divided, but with anxious and avoidant kind of being a little bit more common than the disorganized.

It's like what you said earlier when you realize you're in with everybody else. The majority of people are struggling on some level with attachment issues, Right?

Exactly. The majority of people are struggling in some level with attachment issues because no parent is perfect. And even when you're doing your best, every once in a while, you might actually end up triggering just a little bit of insecure attachment in your child because no parent is available all of the time and does the right thing all of the time. And so 99% of parents, of course, are trying to do their best, but they may be struggling with their own stuff or maybe reacting to things that happen in their upbringing. So then they end up developing some insecure attachment in their children. Of course, there's always that horrible 1% of parents who actually abuse their children consciously and on purpose. But in general, most parents aren't like that. They're struggling with their own things. Unfortunately, depending on the level of the struggle and how long it goes on for, it does make an imprint on your child.

Oh, my gosh.

Now when you're talking like this, you're making me think about being a parent and thinking, oh, my gosh, how much damage have I done? Should we be having our children take these tests?

Well, I think that you can always talk about attachment with your children, obviously in age appropriate ways. If your child is a little bit older or teenager, I think that it's a great thing to kind of talk about. And just like, let's discuss this and let's try to connect the dots. But I do think that no matter how old your child is, it's never too late to kind of show them, hey, I'm showing up for you mindfully. And I may not have all the answers, but I'm trying my best to be here. You know, that goes such a long way for our kids. Sometimes I can dream up all these fun things to do with my toddler, like, oh, we're gonna have this kind of day. And really all he wanted that day is to sit next to me, right? It's just so interesting what children actually need and want and sometimes what we think they need and want. And so instead of trying to chase this idea of being the perfect parent, trying to just show up for your child in whatever form they are that day, and then being willing to flex and adjust your parenting behaviors based on what you're seeing.

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I asked you to try to find.

Your passion but you know in real time that is so much harder because life is happening and you're going well at work. Or maybe you're not feeling well or maybe you have a family member that's ill and there's all of these stressors outside. I know that my son is 16 and he'll be the first one to Say to me, you know, clearly you have not been having a good day. I can tell. And it's, it's kind of holding that mirror up to you to say, oh, wait a minute, I'm responding right now in ways. I'm not being thoughtful around, I'm just reacting. And I know that's when I'm at my worst. So what can you do when you start realizing that you're trying to control everything in a moment that makes no sense?

Yeah. I think that it's okay to kind of recognize, hey, you're human, like this happened, and then have an honest conversation with your child again in an age appropriate way and say, hey, you know what? Like, mama lost her cool a little bit there. She's very, very stressed out. But then also making it it clear that you know you're gonna solve that problem for yourself. Right? Like not letting them become the parentified children to solve your problems or fix your emotions, but basically admitting, hey, I'm having a bad day, so I'm sorry if I lost my cool for a little bit there. But don't worry, Mama's gonna think about some ways that she's gonna feel better and she will feel better soon. You know, I think that that's really important because sometimes kids will just take on that responsibility. Like, oh, my mom told me that she's having a bad day. Like, is that my fault? Should I be fixing it? So it's just important for them to know, yes, I'm having a bad day. Like, obviously that's a parent, so hiding it wouldn't really help. And it's important to talk about it, but at the same time, it's not your fault and I will try to save it for myself.

One of the things that I remember having a chaotic childhood, which I did. And then as I was a teenager, seeing my friends who didn't have chaotic, who had more, like the picture perfect, you know, parents married, would love the child so much, supported them. We're always there to encourage them and, and help them. But then what I would see when I was younger, I'd feel very jealous. Like, why didn't I get a family situation like this? Cut to, as an adult, one of the gifts I was given was resiliency as a child. So when you're older, things don't seem that challenging when you are faced with difficult times. When I look back at those, my friends who grew up in those idyllic situations, very different attachment styles, of course, that now as adults, when they're confronted with really difficult things, like losing a parent or losing a spouse or whatever it may be, the response is so incredibly different. Do you see that the different attachment styles, each has their own pro and con?

Oh, absolutely. I think that so many people just always think about and harp on the problematic aspects of each of the insecure attachment styles. But actually there are pros to all of them too, you know. So I think that it's also important to kind of honor yourself for where you're at. Maybe you're not securely attached right now. You can be if that's what you want to do and want to put in the work. But there are some pros to each of the styles. And so disorganized, attached. You know, those are the people who are like constant surveillance specialists are always going to be watching out to make sure that no one's in danger. Like, they're very heightened all the time. And as a result of them being in fight or flight all the time. The positive is, well, they're always watching out for people's safety, right. Their own and the people that they care about, people who have avoidant attachment, they tend to be admired for their ability to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, you know, be able to achieve. Be perfectionist, like, really work hard at their craft. That's really admirable to a lot of people. It obviously serves these individuals well in their lives. And then the person who is anxiously attached, they tend to put other people's needs in front of themselves, and obviously there's a downfall to that. But also, if you need somebody that's the person to call, they're always going to be there and they're going to show up for you.

I like looking at it that way. So much better, for sure. It makes me personally feel so much better. So when you decided to write this book, after the massive amounts of work and all of these people that you've studied, worked with personally, and these experiences you've had, who were you actually writing the book for?

I was writing the book for everybody because I saw how universal attachment issues can be for people, but that they were maybe not connecting the dots, that this is what's causing me so much distress in my life. And I also totally get it as a here and now therapist, just, you know, I want to help people fix the problems that are in their life today. But when you don't go back into the past at all to find out the true roots, you're going to have the same problems keep coming up. And so really that's why I decided to Write the book because as practical and as pragmatic as I am, and I'd like to think of myself that way, it was just impossible to really eradicate the roots of the problem and to prevent these patterns from continuing to go on and wreaking havoc in my clients lives without going back enough into the past to say this is where the origin is. So like, recognize that and then learn how that has really foundationally change the way that you think about life and then from there being able to create that healing process.

So what is the process that you want people to go through? Should they take the quiz first and then get the book? How does it work?

Yeah, so taking the quiz first is a great way to get to know which attachment style or styles are probably the ones that are affecting you most as you sit here today. And then reading the chapters on your attachment style. Basically each attachment style has two chapters. There's one chapter that explains where your attachment style came from, how this might be manifesting in your life as an adult in different ways, as well as the pros of that particular attachment style. And then the second chapter goes through, piece by piece, the action steps of how to heal this attachment style. So read those first and then I think it might be helpful to read about another attachment style, especially somebody who you have an important relationship with, understanding like where maybe some of their roots have come from, and also learning some of the coping strategies that you can help them along in their work.

And when you talk about these healing strategies and you have exercises people can do, prayers, meditations, do they need to do all of them and how long do you do them? How does that work?

Well, each of the coping strategies are actually sectioned by the type of self talk that the person tends to have. So for example, I gave some instances of how the anxious attached person might think things like, I'm not as worthy as others, I have to analyze everything. And so you find the statement that feels the most true to you, you can prioritize it that way, like, well, which of these statements sounds most like me, especially when I'm in distress. And then from there go through the strategies that are filed under that particular statement or that part of self talk. And then so for some people, they might say, well, out of the four statements for anxious attachment, I only have three of them. Well then you can just do the work around those three. Although I recommend that you try all of them on because that's really important to developing your personal toolkit that's going to work for you.

So this isn't a oneand done. I'm going to run through these exercises and see some type of breakthrough.

Well, I think that it would be so nice if we're like, okay, I'm going to do it one time and then I'm all better after the end of the day. I think attachment, because of how foundational it was and how long it took to develop, of course it's going to take a gradual process to heal. But at the same time, the exercises are designed so that you can see effect right away. You can say like, oh, I can see this shift now, or like I have a new understanding. Or like, like I know what to do the next time I feel distressed like this. And so those shifts are going to encourage you to continue so that those changes become bigger and more persistent over time. But they are designed for you to recognize, oh, there's power in this right after you do them.

As you begin to understand yourself more and more and educate yourself on the various attachment styles. Are there certain styles that should not be partners in business together, should not be in a relationship together? Like, what are your thoughts on that?

That? Yeah, you know, I think that most people, if they're willing to at least just recognize what's leading to people that they're in relationships with, in partnerships with being triggered, you can really work with every single style. It's when you don't have that understanding that you're like, well, forget it, I'm going to throw up my hands because like this isn't working. You can work on it as long as you even just have the recognition even before you start the healing process. So I absolutely think that everybody can be in relationship with another person, in a partnership with another person, as long as you just have the willingness to actively listen to what's going on with them.

Well, that in this society, that's a big one. Being willing to actively listen, that is so, so, so important. Be willing to do the work and be open minded. So where can everybody get the book?

Well, everybody can get the book at anywhere where books are sold. Most people like to get it on Amazon, but it is in a variety of places. You can go to my website too, where there is that quiz that we were just discussing. And there's also more links for where you can buy the book too.

And what's your website?

It's Dr. Judy Ho dot com.

Guys, check out this quiz. Take the quiz. I'm making my son take the quiz tonight for sure. It is so eye opening and interesting to go through the process. And I think the whole thing took five minutes?

Yeah, it doesn't take that long, as long as you're willing to sit down and obviously be honest with yourself as you're taking the quiz. But it's cool because it hits on all these different areas of your life. So it's also in a way to understand and to see, well, where is attachment wreaking the most havoc? Like, maybe it's not in certain areas, and you just have to focus on. On some of the other ones.

Well, I want everybody to get the book. It's the new rules of attachment, how to heal your relationships, reparent your inner child, and secure your life. Vision by Dr. Judy. I'm so grateful that you're here. I'm so grateful for the work that you're doing to open everybody's eyes, including mine, to our own shortcomings and how we can embrace it and heal it. Thank you so much.

Oh, thank you so much, Heather. It was great to talk to you.

All right, guys, until next week. Keep creating your confidence. You know I will be to change that dynamic. I couldn't be more excited for what you're gonna hear. Start learning and growing. Inevitably, something will happen. No one succeeds alone.

You don't stop and look around once in a while. You could miss it.

Come on this journey with me.