#70: Chris Voss, Former FBI Hostage Negotiator, Returns to Teach the Art of Safety, Trust, and Need

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Hi, and welcome back. I am so excited that you're here with me today. Thank you so much for being here. Okay, so I have to get into some hardcore business right now. Today, just ironically, I had a couple of different experiences, executive coaching calls, and I'm seeing some themes which I don't like, and I want to make sure that you're sidestepping these landmines. One call that I was on today is a CEO who does not have a great handle on revenue generation. That's not her expertise, which is fine. She's identified that that's not her expertise. And we're working on it. And one of the things that we talked about today is that she doesn't have any time. She has to be everywhere and. And how overwhelming that is. So we went through, you know, what tasks are you involving yourself in that you can peel off and delegate to someone else? Or is there a way to automate it, outsource it, where it makes sense? And so we went through and we were able to find a couple of different opportunities to free her up a little bit. But still the majority of our time was consumed. And I asked her to write something down. I asked her to write down, is this task driving revenue for me? And for the next week, every day she has to, multiple times a day, she has to stop herself and ask that question. Because what I really started understanding when I was speaking with her is that while she might be busy, it wasn't really productive. And let me give you a couple of examples. What I mean by that, because I want you to apply this back to your business, to your job, to how you spend your time. We can fool ourselves and say we're busy. And listen, I mean, I've been there too, right? When you're exhausted and maybe you're just not feeling it, and so you just sit at the computer and type things and you say, oh, I'm working so hard. Yeah, right. Well, if our goal is to create more income, drive more revenues and build a bigger business or book a business or whatever it is that you're doing, we have to constantly ask ourselves, is this task at hand driving revenue for me? Now, that can look a lot of different ways, right? Because you can be meeting with someone that's giving you a lead for a new piece of business that's driving revenue. You can be meeting with your team and doing a training on how to improve your closing ratios that's going to drive revenue. You could be posting content on social media to create a pipeline of potential clients that's driving revenue. So there's many different ways and tasks that can be driving revenue, not just sitting in front of someone, pitching them and asking them to sign a deal. So it's just important that we're aware and making sure we're not wasting time. A lot of people will send emails and send emails and send messages and then ask me why they're not closing more business. If you have a higher ticket item. Listen, if you have a $29 ticket item, you can probably get away with emailing people and messaging them because it's not a substantial item. But if it's over $1,000, whatever it is that you're pitching, whatever service it is that you're offering, you're probably gonna have to jump on a call with somebody and or team will have to do that to sell them on the concept. So that's sort of what we got into today with my CEO is that there was a tremendous amount of email outreach and a minimal amount of phone call closing. And so that disconnect. I challenged her to no longer. Here's the thing. Email's great if you're reaching out to a potential client and you want to get their attention, engage them and get them interested in. However, the email alone will not sell a high ticket product. The goal of the email is to convert to a phone call with you or with someone on your team. So think of wherever you are in the sales process. You know that first initial outreach and email discovery. But then once we gain some interest or a response, our goal is to get them on a live phone call to figure out if they are a potential client and to sell them on our products and services. Then we follow up with them from there and they move through the sales cycle. So it's really important to be aware of and evaluate where people are in the sales cycle and not to confuse busy work with actual work and to stop ourselves throughout the day and ask the question is what I'm doing right now generating revenue for me or potentially generating revenue in the future for me? And listen, there's sometimes I have to stop myself. I constantly am asking myself that question, but. But sometimes I have to stop myself and say, okay, is this the best use of my time right now? And when I basically annualize it out over the next coming months through the end of the year I say over that window of time, yes, today it might not seem like that. Right. Because I'm working on potentially outreach to new clients. And it's a slow process at first and once I engage with them and get them on a phone call, I can accelerate the process and get to close. So sometimes it can seem tedious in the beginning portion, but sales is a cycle. It's a process. It's not a one and done thing. It's not like you go to social media, put a post up, here's my product I'm selling, everyone buys off the post and we go to bed. It's a great day. No, we have to engage people, get them to trust, know and like us. And social media is a great way to do that. A podcast is a great way to do that. Advertising is a great way to do that. There's so many different word of mouth, networking for reviews and recommendations of people's work. So there's so many different ways to do it. But that is your ultimate goal, right? That you're building a pipeline of people to come in your funnel. Another important thing is to track all of these names, numbers, email addresses, so that you know when you're supposed to get back to people who you haven't heard back from, that you should have heard back from, you know, because people get busy, people miss your email. People forget that they had agreed, you know, to give you an answer in two days and you need to be the one you to master the follow up. And so I do that right now through a Google Doc on an Excel spreadsheet where everybody can jump in and update the sheet and we know where we are now. The goal is to get to a CRM which I have not launched yet, but that will make it even more efficient, easier and more clear as to where everyone is in the sales process in that sales cycle. And then that makes generating revenues that much faster because we can see. Oh wow. It takes us a long time to get people in the pipeline, but once they're in, we're able to close them pretty quickly. It's, it's important to identify where are your pain points in the process. Oh, I, you know, I struggle to get people in the pipeline to begin with. Okay, then we need to test some different things and try some different ways. We need to figure out what's broken in the process and constantly improve and constantly innovate. And I test things all of the time. I was testing some different posts today on LinkedIn, more around storytelling instead of teaching. Cause I've been doing a lot of teaching posts lately, and just to try and see what's working. Cause at different times, different things are gonna work. And we don't need to reinvent the wheel. We can look and see what's out there working in the world, and we can put our own flair, our own flavor on it and make it our own. So it's definitely something that I suggest to do. Okay, so we've got. My one client's really focused now on where is this task that she's doing, driving revenue for her today or tomorrow. And if it's not delegating it off to somebody else or putting it on a back burner. Cause we need closes this week, and she's got some pressure on her to drive revenue. So I also asked to elicit help from the people that she meets with, to let them know people can't help you if you don't tell them you need help. Right. So. And I know that's uncomfortable for some people, and it used to be uncomfortable for me, but I gave her the example. I said, if I came to you and said, hey, I need some help. I'm. I'm struggling to get new clients, what would you say? She said, oh, of course I would help you. I said, right, well, if you would do that, do you think that the people you work with would help you? And she laughed and said, yeah, I guess they would.

Right.

So when you're dealing with nice people that know you and trust you and like you, they're going to want to help 90% of the time. So let them know, hey, I'm in a crunch right now. We've got a number that we're trying to hit before the end of the year. I've really got to accelerate revenues or onboarding or new client growth or new biz dev, whatever it is, let people know and say if you know anybody that you think could benefit from my services, it would mean the world to me. Who wouldn't want to help? The worst thing someone would say is, oh, I don't know anyone right now, but I'll keep my eyes open for you. Right. So it's important to let people know what your goals are. Let your team know what your goals are. Be transparent. Share what's going on, and you'll see champions will show up for you if you raise your hand and let them know you need their help. Okay. I was on another coaching call today. I literally never leave my house anymore. This is. This is what I do in. In Covid. I am at the Living room table, on the computer, on zoom. Helping people grow their businesses, grow their personal brands and, and grow themselves, which is great. And I'm super lucky I get to do it because I actually really love it and it's fun. So on another call I was on today, this time with an entrepreneur who's a man. And halfway through a call, I said, wait a minute. What is your revenue strategy? Just break down in a simplistic way. What is your revenue growth strategy? What does that look like? And he said, I don't have one. Yikes. That's really scary in 2020 to not have a revenue growth strategy. Now I have a number of different strategies. I'm constantly evaluating, constantly testing, constantly optimizing, and constantly trying new things because we know that we're in a really strange time right now. What used to work doesn't work any longer. And I'm learning about new companies, new platforms, new tools, and I don't know which one's going to work or which one stinks or, you know, I look at reviews, I do my research, but you still have to test things for yourself and for your potential audience, your potential clients. So I was really concerned to hear he did not have one. That is a major. No, no. So if you look at your business, if you look at your job, ask yourself, what is your growth strategy? What is your growth strategy for today and for tomorrow? You know, where are you looking to go? Are you looking to get promoted? Have you let people on your team know that, your supervisor know that? Are you looking to grow your client list? Have you let your clients know and ask them for intros to other people that you could potentially work with? You know, get clear on what it is that you're doing, get a clear growth strategy, write it down, set some specific goals, give yourself some deadlines, share them with the team. You know, these are really basic revenue 101 type things. But the funny thing is, the gentleman I was speaking with today, he essentially is an expert in revenue. He'd been in revenue just as long and revenue generation and media as long as I had been held, you know, SVP titles and owns his own company now, very successful. But sometimes when you're in the business day to day and you're the one, you know, doing the work, you forget to work on your business. So don't make that mistake. Pick your head up, take a step back from the desk, take a step back from closing, take a step back from building the pipeline for a minute and say, what is my bigger picture strategy here? What are my bigger picture goals here? And what does this look like? And. And get clear on that. Share it with your team. Share it with yourself. Put those numbers up everywhere and get going. Because it is possible. It can be done, and you can do it. Just continue to find solutions and look for a way. Never give up. Okay, so those were the two things I really wanted to share with you. Now today is a little different. I've shared with you guys a portion of a keynote, a virtual keynote speech that I did before, which was really fun, and I hope that you guys liked it. It was fun for me. But today I want to share. Each month on my group coaching program, I bring in a guest speaker. Speaker. And last month I brought in Chris Voss. And, you know, you've heard him on the show before. He's brilliant. FBI's number one hostage negotiator. Most unbelievable book. Never split the difference, you know, New York Times bestseller. He's. He's killing it. And he's also the nicest guy. Such a sweetheart, a friend, and wonderful person and really has this. He can break things down in negotiation so quickly. He's like a machine because he's been doing it, of course, for so many years, and he's become an expert at it. And it was really cool because he sat down with all of us on Zoom, all of my team, and answered their individual questions, their individual challenges, and also shared with us some of the things that he's been doing during Pandemic, which was super interesting. So I want to share a portion of that call with you today because I think you're really going to like it and learn some amazing tips and tricks. When you're trying to negotiate, trying to accomplish something, and you're hitting roadblocks like we all do, he's going to give you some hacks and some different and new strategies that you haven't heard before that you will definitely want to use. So hold tight. We're going to be right back. Meet a different guest each week. So, Chris, here's the thing. We have an hour of your time. And again, thank you so much for giving us an hour of your day. I know how busy you are. Everyone has questions for you. But I was hoping if you could kind of open up for us a little bit and give us a little bit of. Drop a little bit of knowledge on us from your negotiations experience.

And also, you know, one of the last conversations we had, you know, what are the primary considerations in today's environment? You know, there are always the primary considerations. It's Just that in a higher pressure environment, we're more attuned to them. And I think before what you said was, which is absolutely true, was safety, trust and need. You know, do people feel safe dealing with you? Do they trust you? Do they? And do they need what you have? Need is like beauty. It's in the eye of the beholder. But if you can establish safety and trust with people, then you can talk with them about whether or not they really need what they have in their mind. And you can't talk with them about what they need until you've established safety and trust. Now this is really the way it always was. Kennedy had a quote way back when, comfortable in action. The risks and costs of comfortable in action are much greater than the long term costs. Making the wrong move because you make the wrong move, at least you learn if you paid attention. Why am I babbling on like this? In order to deal with this, you got to hear the other side out first. You got to hear what the other side has to say first. And I think that's the biggest mistake that people make. As a hostage negotiator, that was really all we were taught to do. You know, get on the phone, you know, use a soothing voice and hear them out. And you'll be shocked at how many things will solve themselves if you just do that. And that's why hostage negotiation works in business negotiation. That's why it works in personal life. That's why it works in your relationships with your, with your parents, your children, your significant others. He's inside out. You're gonna, you'll solve enough the problems by doing that, only that if, then if you hear them out, if you shut up, then they'll give you an answer that you want. I mean, whatever you guys are dealing with, you're going to hack the whole process by starting with those steps. Like tone of voice is magic. Almost everybody on a phone is a C suite. If not CEO, if not owner of company, right? Heather, you're going to solve 9 out of 10 of your problems with just changing your tone of voice. There's neuroscience that backs that up. I can change the speed that your brain thinks just by changing my tone of voice. Hostage negotiators, we were taught to use a late night FM DJ voice. Late night FM dj. Like if I can calm down a sociopathic, rampaging terrorist with that tone of voice, you don't have anybody in your world that you can't calm down to. And by simply calming the situation down from the beginning, how many problems you're dealing with would 60 to 70% resolve themselves if people just calm down? It's insane. And the other thing too that we've learned since Sean Acker does a great TED talk called the Happiness Advantage. Harvard psychologist and not shocking, it will also be one of the funniest TED talks you ever listened to. Acker is the source of my data on this. He says you're 31% smarter in a positive frame of mind. So you want to be more successful. You want to make your people more successful, put people in a positive frame of mind. You are going to be 31% smarter. The people that work for you are going to be 31% smarter. 31% instantaneous edge is more than enough to gain a competitive advantage over your the people you're competing with over nearly Everybody you're against. 31% smarter. You learn faster. The other thing I'd suggest you guys take a good hard look at is this book right here, Stealing Fire, Steven Kotler. Steven Kotler is probably the world's leading expert on flow. In flow, your decision making improves your mental stamina improves. Your pattern recognition improves. Everything you do improves in flow. And understanding flow and how to get into it is to your advantage. You learn faster in flow. It was a Dutch CEO from 1980s, 1990s Royal Dutch Shell CEO and I with my accent, I'm going to butcher his last name. But it's Ari de Guise and everybody has butchered his quote one way or another. I've seen even Kotlers using his quote. The ability to learn faster than your competition is the only sustainable competitive advantage. The only sustainable competitive advantage. Learn faster than your competition. In flow, you learn faster. In a positive state of mind, you learn faster. It's a way to hack the learning process. It's one of the reasons why I'm absolutely convinced that no one is ever going to catch up with my company in terms of business consulting, negotiation consulting and coaching. We coach, consult and train. I thought we were only going to train. We're doing a lot of coaching. All of us are focused on learning. You know, my core team, our significant others get sick of our conversation because all we want to talk about is negotiation and how to get better and how to get smarter. Nobody will ever catch up with us because we're into learning. And that will be our sustainable competitive advantage as long as we are a company. And we're getting knocked off on a regular basis now too. You know, people trying to figure out what tactical empathy is, they're trying to bring in hostage negotiators you know, people are stealing our material. It's going to happen. They will not keep up with us because we're busy learning. The academics at Harvard and Wharton, they have to show their knowledge so much more than they have to learn. The emphasis on, you know, if they do a study, they got to do it academically rigorous and then they got to get that study published. And the amount of time they're wasting getting a study published is two or three years. We were learning while they were trying to get published.

Will you share with us what tactical empathy is?

So we put tactical in front of empathy to try to make it less about sympathy. Empathy's origin. It was never, ever meant to be sympathy, ever. It was never meant to be synonymous with compassion. It's a compassionate thing to do. But in today's environment, it has come to be equated to sympathy, compassion and agreement. And it's not at all. It's the first reason I started collaborating with the Harvard guys because as a hostage negotiator, I was applying empathy in a very mercenary fashion. And then Bob Mnookin, the head of the program on negotiation at Harvard, published a book called Beyond Winning. And the second chapter is the Tension between Empathy and assertiveness, which he wrote in as a fake title because there is no tension. They actually complement one another perfectly. But then in that chapter he said, empathy is not compassion. It's not agreement. It's not even about liking the other side. It's just identifying where they're coming from. And I read that and I was like, wow, you guys define it exactly the way we do. And that's why we started to collaborate because we had the same core definition. Empathy is not sympathy. Now, since we came up, Bob published that book probably about 2002 ish. Now we've added neuroscience. We didn't have neuroscience. The neuroscience data that we're using on a regular basis, which takes us completely out of psychology because psychology is just too soft of a science and it changes too much to really keep up with. Neuroscientists have identified the amygdala as sort of the command post of our emotional and our decision making. There's no such thing as a decision that's not emotional, just doesn't exist. You make, you don't make your decisions, are not emotional when you're dead, it's kind of that cut and dried. Every thought we have either goes through the amygdala or starts there. There's argument as to which, what the sequence is, but there's no Argument as to whether or not the amygdala is involved in every thought. Everybody's heard of the amygdala. Hijack the amygdala. Neuroscientists have mapped out the amygdala, and 75% of the real estate in the amygdala is devoted to neg thoughts. Every one of you has an amygdala. Every one of you is equipped with a system that's designed to be negative. 75% negative. That's your survival mode. Don't take my word for it. Google it and look it up yourself. You're going to find that out. What's that got to do with tactical empathy? Tactically, you get farther faster in a conversation by deactivating negatives than you do pitching positives. I stood up in front of the command staff of a police department two days ago, and I knew I was going to say a bunch of stuff to them that they didn't like. So what are their reasons for not listening to me? Well, the first one is going to be, all right, so this guy used to be in law enforcement. He retired 13 years ago. That was the first line on my first slide. This guy retired from law enforcement 13 years ago. He doesn't know what he's talking about. What's the next thing a cop is going to say for not listening to me? Well, okay, so you were in law enforcement, you were fed. That doesn't count. That was the second line on the slide. All right, so if he was in law enforcement, he was a fed. That doesn't count. What's the next line? All right, he was on a terrorist task force and he worked with cops, but the cops carried him anyway. That was my following line. I went through every single reason that they would come up with for not listening to me. And instead of saying, all right, so don't think that this is why you shouldn't listen to me. But I just listed him, and there was no yes, but on either one of them. One of the things I put in was he was in law enforcement, but he was a negotiator. Those people are all part of the Kumbaya crowd. All they want to do is give people hugs. I put that on a slide. Another reason for not listening to me is, okay, so he was a cop, but that was back in the 1980s. That's almost 40 years ago. And I was in Kansas City. They probably had cows in the street and rode horses. I put that on the slide. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And then I told him the truth. About reality as I saw it. And not one person ever rejected any one of my thoughts. Nobody raised their hand and said, yeah, but you don't understand and here's why you don't understand. I put all the reasons why I wouldn't understand and I put them first because I know how their brain is wired. And I deactivated each and every objection they had. I don't overcome objections. I deactivate them. And I deactivate them by knowing what they are and just simply calling them out. And I laid everything out and I had these guys attention for 90 minutes after 3 o' clock in the afternoon. And where I was going with it ultimately was the Black Lives Matter issue. Wanted them to think about it in a different way. As it turns out, the Las Vegas Police Department is an extremely progressive police department. And they're one of the few police departments that came out and openly condemned what was done to George Floyd. They open what Very few police departments came out and openly condemned what happened to George Floyd. Very few. Vegas PD was one of them. I said, it doesn't matter. You guys are still the poster child for everything that's wrong in our society today. So let's talk about how we can change it in a way for you guys to think about it a completely different way. I actually talked to him about flow and I said, look at the thing about George Floyd and look at the shooting in Atlanta and let's take racism out of the equation and instead let's just talk about in terms of decision making. Is there anything here that you guys see that was a good decision? So reframe the entire conversation in law enforcement from racism to decision making, and you guys can move forward because you're now not accused of being racist. You can't get a single commander in any police department to look at what happened to George Floyd and say, point out the good decision making here. You're not going to find any. And that's the way they're going to fix their problems, change the conversation. But that's where I wanted to go. I didn't want them to push back on me because I didn't understand. So what are all the reasons I don't understand? Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. List them. And it's shocking when you simply call out somebody's reason for opposing you and you don't say, I don't want you to think that. And you don't say, I realize you think that, but you just call it out and it makes it go away.

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Guys, I want to open it up now so that you can start asking Chris questions directly. Ronan, I know that you have met Chris and you have think so highly of him. So I'm sure he would love to hear one of your questions.

Hey Chris, so I had the privilege of meeting you back in 2017 in New York at one of your Black Swan trainings and was just instantly hooked.

It didn't destroy your career. It didn't destroy my career.

You know, not yet.

But then when your masterclass came out, I made my whole team. So I run a sales team for a cyber security startup. I made my whole team watch it because it was so good. It was such a good way to distill the lessons in the book which I also made my team read. Really fantastic. Fantastically done.

Thank you.

One of the questions I have for you, there's in sales, there are a lot of camps and arguments about the best way. One of the approaches that I'm a huge fan of is called the Challenger Sale. Have you ever heard of the Challenger?

Yeah, I'm very familiar with it.

So in that method there's a concept of educate your buyer because you don't want them to nod their head and agree with you. You want them to go, oh, I never thought of that. What would you say is a good way to lead to that approach of getting the other party to reframe the way they look at the problem you solve by saying, oh, I never thought of that. Any frameworks or advice or things that You've seen work to get the other party to that. I never thought of that answer.

Yeah, several things about the Challenger Sale. I'm in agreement with the philosophy behind the book. They're ridiculously thin on how to enact the philosophy, which is one of the reasons why you're asking me this question. What I've found also that happens to be true is managers and leaders happen to love the challenger sale because this is. They want their people to be challengers. It makes sense and it does. But you hand it to somebody who's trying to implement it and they go like, I don't know how to do this, but the philosophy is sound. One of the good things about the philosophy is if you could become that type of person, you thrive under any economic environment. Your success is really independent of the economic environment. The other thing we've been quoting really hard was because now we're teaching people a lot about the proof of life of the deal. Is there a deal? Is the deal with you? We refer to it also as the favorite of the fool. If you don't know who the fool in the game is, it's you. Challenger sale is the first place that I saw data which is 20% of your opportunities to borrow a Trumpism are fake opportunities. 20% of the people you're dealing with are never going to do business with you, ever. And they surveyed executives and they said how often you engage in someone and act like you're going to hire them, buy their product, do business with them, and you're not. You're doing due diligence. You need them for a competing bid. For all intents and purposes, you are lying to them. And they got the executives to admit that they did it 20% of the time. Now, people don't exaggerate how much they lie, which means that that 20% number is low. And we've been coaching a lot of people in favor of the fool on a regular basis and we find the number can climb as high as 80% of the time. And it's really hard for people to wrap their minds around this. But we've looked at a lot of other data and decision making data, and the really hard thing is there's no such thing as an open mind with anybody that you encounter. The decision making data says 50% of the people have made up their mind before they encounter you, which means their mind is completely closed. And the other data says their mind is at least 70% of the way made up, if not 80% of the way made up before they encounter you the hard part is there's no such thing as an open mind and you've got to get a diagnosis early on. So getting back to your question, how do you help people see a different vision, see a different perspective? You know, first you got to establish safety and trust. How do you establish safety and trust? You really the magic words you want to get out of somebody's brain is that's right. And you know, we talk about it in the book. Summarizing their perspective, deactivating their negatives, summarize their perspective. Now we just put out a three step model which we're going to put in a blog post that I just wrote. So I don't know how soon it's going to come out, but you guys are going to get some data information beforehand before this comes out that we're only giving to people right now that we're coaching directly. So the three step model for a good summary is so far. And then list just the facts, ma'.

Am.

Just the facts of the situation. The inarguable facts. An inarguable fact would be. It's Friday to say you love Fridays. Would be arguable. You know, the inarguable facts list. The inarguable facts list what that has resulted in. If there are facts you're worried about including because they put you in a bad light means you have to include them. Because as soon as you start omitting facts, they no longer trust you. They know those facts are there. You're telling them they can't trust you. Safety and trust, they're not safe with you. They can't trust you got to include the facts, the things that have happened as a result of the facts. And if you're worried about including them, include them. Because these are now safety and trust issues. None of this takes that long. It takes a lot longer to spin your wheels and go nowhere. And so the facts, what's happened as a result of the facts and that has made you feel three sections so far resulted in you feel at that point in time. Covey's advice, seek first to understand, then be understood. Ronan, you're asking me about how to be understood. Make the other side feel heard. And they're now open to having a point made with them. You now open the door. Now what do you do after that is probably in the form of what we refer to as a label. Seems like X. Seems like this. A label is specifically designed to hit the brain in a different way than statements or questions do. When you say it seems like it Triggers a mental process in your counterpart for them to go to themselves.

Hmm.

Does it seem like. And it's a completely different thought process. You're triggering contemplation, and you're triggering it in a very surgical way on what you've labeled. Now, if you really get them. If you really got to get them to change their mind about something. Vision drives decision. And the dominating factor in vision and decision making is loss. So basically, you got to reframe the loss. And this is a hard thing for your salespeople to adapt to, because your salespeople have something that know that works. They just don't understand. It's a low percentage of the time, you know, and I just. I just had a salesman turn me off just a little bit ago. Salespeople start out with not knowing how to do anything, and their success rate is probably 1, 2, 3%. It's ridiculously low. And then they find a way to do something, and let's say the success rate jumps to 20%. And I'm like, awesome. I'm killing it. I went from 0% success to 20% success. Now, what we teach salespeople to do results in a higher level of success. More like 75 to 80 to 85%. But they don't understand that. They don't understand gain. I will say, all right, do this, and you're going to be 65% more successful. And they'll be like, I don't know, I'm pitching gain. But instead, I'll say to them, stay where you are. You're losing 80% of the time. Do nothing. Continue to lose 80% of the time. I've just changed the conversation from gain to loss. Lose 80% of the time. Hell, I don't want to do that. Now. I've got a different conversation going. Gains and losses simply need to be reframed from gain to loss. And you talk about the exact same set of facts and circumstances I first started teaching. This is this mental exercise called the dis the disease game. Imagine you're the mayor of a town. It's particularly great example because we're in the middle of a pandemic. So the center for Disease Control has just come to you and told you that everybody in your town has a disease. Now we have option A and option B. Option A, do this, and 20% of your people will live. And they'll go like, I don't know, option A, 80% of your people will die. I'm not doing option A. The numbers are exactly the same. 20% success. Rate in either one. I didn't change anything about option A in any way, shape or form. I just changed the way I teed it up in gain or loss. And when I teed it up as a loss, there's a violent, no, I'm not doing that reaction. You have not changed the facts and circumstances in any way, shape or form. You've just changed whether you're presenting a gain or whether you're presenting a loss. The vast majority of salespeople have become addicted to presenting gain because that was the first thing they ever learned and it was the first success they ever had. And just like in a casino when you're successful, you get that hit of dopamine and you will continue to play a losing game. That's what casinos are built on, addicting people to losing games. And they know that all you only got to win once and that hit a dopamine will be so phenomenal that you will ignore all your losses. And that's the problem that most sales managers are faced with today is a dopamine addiction that their salespeople have to get them from being fast hustlers to challengers. The challenger is a higher percentage win, but their first wins came from being fast hustlers and they remember that dopamine hit and they're still addicted to it.

Shona, I know that you have a question. Next.

Hi Chris, thanks so much for joining us today. It's a significant honor for me personally. I listened to your, I did your masterclass in the fall of last year and as a former CEO of IT supply chain and hospitals, and I would have used some of your tactics in the hundred million dollar negotiations I was doing for CT scanners, MRIs and labor contracts. It would have been helpful. I have shifted gears now into supporting other executives with something that's really passionate for me, which is around getting comfortable with the discomfort of meeting employees on the front lines and being present with them and understanding the reality. And I just wrote a book about that that was released in March. And as I'm working with executives, so my success, I think as a senior leader has been doing just that my whole career. So I will always find a way to meet with employees by working in their shoes. So clean toilets, if in the hospital, deliver food trays, whatever. So that was my way to be able to see the reality on the front lines and hear their stories and show up as a different leader in that space. And I've had to deal with hundreds and hundreds of angry employees related to X, Y and Z or Hundreds of community members angry and have crossed picket lines and all sorts of interesting things. And so I'm curious, as part of my challenge, as I'm starting to help other executives, is trying to get them to understand the ROI and their time to do the things that you're talking about. With respect to tactical empathy, I call it authentic listening. It is all around the same, seeking to understand before being understood, as you mentioned. So I'm curious how you're able to do that through your coaching practice, knowing that tactical empathy maybe outside of the negotiation room, but really in a relationship perspective when you're having to face angry employees and have those needed conversations to hear them so then they can move forward and kind of heal and create that next normal for their environment. So I'm curious as to what's been successful in being able to paint that picture where CEOs are able to want to invest that time and know that they'll get the ROI back if they do do those steps. And then maybe some tips to help them feel a bit more comfortable.

A couple different approaches, and the first one is really just changing your questions. So give me an example of a question that you might ask a CEO to try to get his attention. What kind of a question would you ask him?

Now they're coming to me with a question. Hey, I got. My employees are like, unhappy. They're. They're disengaged. We made some bad decisions. It's impacted them. We've broken their trust. And I know we need to heal and move forward and how do we best do that? So I say best do that is you need to hear those stories personally. You can't have a third party come and do it for you. You're not gonna be successful in the long run with respect to that.

Okay, so the first thing you did was try to tell them. Now, that's a way to get a point across, but it's a really inefficient way. I wish I knew the source, my original source on this, but I read a long time ago, try to get a point across to somebody by telling them you had to tell them 19 times. So one of three approaches. Try all three and see which one you like. The first one would be a label. And to get them to want to interact with me, I'd say, seems like you're giving us a lot of thought because now they're going to feel paid attention to seek first understand and be understood. You're starting to make them feel understood. So you can make your point. Now, if you were to ask him a series of questions to try to lead them to where you want them to go, you probably say, would you like to save time? Because this is a tremendous time waster to do it wrong. So instead I'd say, but that's a yes question. And people have been taught that yes questions are traps. So instead you could say, do you like wasting time? You'd be stunned at what people will comfortably say no to. I mean, and I'm gonna use some profanity here, you will be fucking shocked. I've got employees to say to their bosses, do you want me to fail? But when people say no, they feel safe and secure. We haven't had anybody push back hard on a no oriented question that's appropriate to the conversation. No oriented questions are so ridiculously effective that a lot of people that are trying to trap me, try to trap me with them because they find them work on other people. I got a good instinct on figuring out really fast whether or not you're trying to cut my throat, trick me, trap me, get me to do something. And I. And I cut it off really quickly. But. So I'm a bad example. But you'd be shocked at what people say no to. If you were to sit down and list the questions that you would want to convince a CEO with your natural inclination would probably to ask respectful confirmation questions just to make sure that you're on the right ground and you're confirming that the two of you see things the same way. And they would probably be yes questions because there's three kinds of yeses. Commitment, confirmation, and counterfeit. And a lot of people simply try to ask confirming yes questions. The problem with confirming yes questions is the snake oil salesmen have hustled them so many times with confirmation questions that people are immediately leery and they no longer trust you because they've been taught that people that they can't trust will ask them yes questions. That's the biggest problem with yes questions. It never yes questions never fail to diminish rapport, never fail to diminish trust, because there's so many people that we can't trust that are using them. Now. It sounds stupid to just change your yes questions to no questions, but it works. Now, the third approach, another thing you can layer in there, is how much time do you want to waste doing this wrong? How efficient has your process been up to now you're trying to get them to see that the process that they've been using has failed them. How efficient has a process been used up to now it's got to be said with genuine curiosity. You can say, how efficient has your process been used been up to now? And if I use that tone of voice on you, the unspoken part of it is, you stupid fool, you know, same phrase. How efficient has your process been up to now? No change in words, completely different change in the way it lands, deactivating the negatives. So so far you've worked really hard with your employees to try to overcome this and you put a lot of time into it and it doesn't seem like you're getting anywhere and it's made you really frustrated. That's right, get that's right out. Then you'll be able to get them to listen. It seems to be highly inefficient of an approach because when we're advising people and we have the experience and the resume to know that our advice is on the money which you have and you want them to stop wasting money. Giving them the answer is the least efficient way to get the answer into their head. It's a little bit like a lifeguard. You're sitting on a beach and you see somebody down the beach drowning. You could go directly to that person, which would be through the water, which would be slow. Or you could run down the beach and then go out and travel a much farther distance overall, but get there.

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Thank you Chris. And yes, I was a lifeguard so I appreciate the analogy. Okay, now we're going over to Carice. You've got the floor next to ask Chris.

Hey Chris, I'm actually a expert in online fraud prevention. I work with a lot of the top Fortune 500 companies with E commerce channels to prevent mostly credit card fraud though any kinds of online abuse scams, et cetera. I've won awards, although I'm probably one of the most experience and experts in my field. But and I imagine you get this question a lot from people of my gender because it is a male dominated industry. I definitely will own that. Some of it is probably in my own head, like giving myself a barrier. But I am often undercut by competitors not necessarily on price, but on they'll make side comments on, you know, whether it's LinkedIn or talk badly about me, disparage me or they will just simply have outrageous costs with very little experience or expertise. But because of their confidence level or because of I don't know what that X factor, they're able to capture executives trust. So I would say that the people who know fraud prevention know that I know my shit. The people who pay the bills and write the checks and sign the invoices sometimes question that.

What do you say, you know, women.

In general or just to that struggle? I guess.

Yeah. We'll deactivate the negatives in advance. A great way to start getting good at it is what would you want to say? I don't want you to think, you know, what would you. In advance? You're sneaking suspicion either because of the behavior that this person has given you or because of what the environment has. Or the other thing too is you're in sales.

Right by default.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm not.

Yeah.

The ironic thing is you're in sales.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The ironic thing is, is that fraud is often joked as sales prevention within online companies. But yes, I am in sales for my own business.

So that would be. That would be part of where you would look to deactivate in advance. Actual residue against salespeople. And so how do you deactivate it? You simply just call it out. You probably figure because I'm a woman, I don't know what I'm talking about. You probably figure because I look young, my face is not full of lines, I don't have gray hair. I don't have enough gray hair to know what I'm talking about. It's the exact same approach that I did with cops the other day. What are all the reasons for not listening to me on my bookshelf, but I haven't got it featured. The upward spiral. Can't think of the author's name off the top of my head. This is why we talk about the neuroscience stuff. This study has been replicated a number of times. Simply calling out the negatives is the most effective way to deactivate the negatives. What they did was they put people in an FMRI functional magnetic resonance imaging machine, which means they could watch the electricity move through people's brains. And they showed them pictures that they knew would induce negative emotions. You know, baby seals getting clubbed, puppy dogs in a rain. You know, maybe they went to Humane society's website and took all the pictures that are used for advertising. Who knows what pictures they use. But they showed people pictures they knew would induce negative emotions. They didn't care what the emotions were. They just knew they'd be negative. Anger, loneliness, sadness, isolation, doesn't matter. You got them in the FMRI and they show the people the pictures. Then all they ask them to do is identify. Synonymous with label. Identify the emotion you're feeling at the moment. Just identify it. They show the people the picture, the region of the amygdala that is negative, which is pre mapped. We know where it is, we lights up, electricity is pounding through it. And as soon as a person simply identifies a negative emotion, the electricity in that area of the brain dropped every time. Not half the time, not 90% of the time, every time. Now, the degree that it dropped varied. And that's what, when we're teaching people to label negatives, we say, it might not drop that much. It dropped, just label it some more. So whatever the negatives might be, label them.

Now.

Here's the scary part. What happens if you label a negative that's not there? Do you plant it? No, as a matter of fact, you inoculate from it. And that's one of our real magic tricks. And why, when we coach people to label negatives, we say, if you got 15, think up four more. Whatever you leave off the list, they're going to kill you with it. And so much so, as an example, if I know I'm getting ready to say something that I know is going to create a negative response in you, it ain't there yet, but you're not going to like what I have to say. And one of my favorites was I'm teaching negotiation. Out of all places, a yoga retreat. That's a long story, but I'm at a yoga retreat teaching negotiation. So we got the crowd there and I am not in yellow spandex, thank you very much. I was in business attire, but this guy asked me a question and he is just not paying attention. And almost every question I ever get, there's always something in it that's smart. No matter how stupid the question is. I find something that's smart and I'll say, okay, here's what I like about this question. I'll call that out. And then they'll feel safe with me, you know, establishing safety. But he asked me the dumbest question I ever heard in my life. And I know there's no way that I'm going to be able to save this guy from my answer. And if we were one on one, it'd be okay. But now he's gonna get told that he's stupid in front of a bunch of people and embarrassment. People would rather die than be embarrassed so all I say to him is, this is gonna sound harsh. I'm calling out the negative in advance, and he kind of sits there and I answer his question, which says, that was really stupid. You weren't paying attention. Here's what I said before he asked me the question. Almost that bad. And I still try to pull my punches as much as I could and answer his questions. And I get done. I went on to the next question, and about five seconds later, he said, that wasn't that bad. That's what happens every time. Every. Every. Every time. This is going to sound harsh. And you say it and people go like, it wasn't that bad. You just tell them the truth. So, you know, get comfortable with dealing with negatives. You know, whatever stupid negative could potentially be in their head, if it's not there, you inoculate it from it. I know I probably just look like a ditzy female. You know they're going to say that, right? Even though I'm not blonde. I bet you probably figure I got blonde roots. You know, call something out in advance. They'll appreciate your sense of humor. The other thing it does is it makes you look fearless. Safety and trust is with somebody who's fearless. So there's a lot of advantages to calling those negatives out in advance. A lot.

Amazing. And I want to be respectful of your time, Chris. So as we're hitting an hour right now, could you please share number one? Thank you so much for being here. It means the world to us. You are the best and so appreciate you. How can people, if they want to hire you, get ahold of you, get in touch with Black Swan? How can they reach you?

The first move is to subscribe to the newsletter. If you're not subscribed already, there's a text to sign up. Text to the number 33777. That's 33. 7. Send. Black Swan Method is the text that you send spaces between each one. Black Swan Method. You get a request back for your email address. Sign up for the newsletter now. The newsletter is a gateway to everything. The newsletter is short and concise. There are a lot of people that put out newsletters that they think, you know, there's a bounty of options. It was like 10 choices, and what ends up happening is that's too much to go through. Like, I get. I get The Wall Street 10 points for today every morning in my inbox. And if. If I read it, it exhausts me. It's great information, but it's exhausting. The newsletter has one article 1, 1, 1. It's short, 750 to 850 words, actionable, specific advice. We don't write anything without even some dialogue included. Like our three step method for the summary we're getting ready to kick out. It lays it out in clear, concise terms, which means you could use it today when you get it, comes out on Tuesday morning, takes the heat off on Monday. The world is trying to kick your ass on Monday. You're ready to get up to gear on Tuesday. Tuesday morning is concise and it's the gateway to everything. If we have a new training program, if we got an avatar and we're putting a lot of new stuff out online, the newsletter is a gateway. It'll take you to the website. We've got a lot of free stuff on the website, a lot of free stuff for you to look over, PDFs, the three types, a lot of stuff also give to your people because it's free, it's a good price and we prize readable, actionable material. At some point in time you want to engage with us. If you got a specific deal you want to be coached on, I won't coach you. I'm not our best coach. I tell jokes better than anybody else. That's what I do for a living. The other guy's coach, they're damn good at it. They will. And our coaching, Derek is our main guy. He's never coached anybody for any longer than a week at a time. Doesn't matter how long you've been struggling with your deal. He will walk you through some stuff that'll solve your problems really fast. We have stuff that we charge you a lot of money for which you're not going to be ready for if you haven't read the book and if you haven't looked at the newsletter and got yourself up to speed. When we go back to in person training, we have in person training that is high speed training. And if you haven't gone through our free stuff first, you're not going to be ready for it. So the free stuff will take you a long way. Tyler was talking about how far you got on the book alone. Add the other free stuff in and at some point in time you want us to engage with you directly with your people. We could do that. We'll give you some good stuff. People gotta be ready. They gotta be ready.

Thank you so much. And I attest to, I subscribe to the newsletter. It's fantastic. The book is fantastic. All of Chris's stuff is the bomb. So if you guys Aren't all in, get all in. And, Chris, once again, thank you so, so much for being here. We really appreciate you.

You guys are a lot of fun. Heather, thanks for having me on.

I asked you to try to find your passion. I hope you enjoyed getting to learn from Chris as much as I did. I was so excited to have him. He's the best. He's hysterical. He's a character, but he's so, so. He's so good at negotiating. It just. It's second nature to him, which I love, and I love hearing his hacks and how he gets it done. And definitely take his tips and apply it in your life because it works. Seriously. Okay. So recently on Instagram, I've been asking the question in the. In the Insta story, you know, hey, when do you lack confidence the most? And I've been responding, so I want to share some of the feedback that I've gotten. Hey, Heather. Every time I'm up against someone older, I struggle with confidence. So I shared with them. I get it. However, it's important to remember older people are so intimidated by young people, too. Instead, step into what is special and unique about you and shine your light. That is where your confidence will come from. And I'll give you a quick example on that. I've met with younger people and older people, and they'll both say they're so intimidated by the other. The older people are intimidated because the young people know technology and the young people have a fresh perspective and see things differently. And that scares them because the older people see it as the way they've always done it, and that gets stale and old. Right now, the younger people see the older people as wise and experts and. And having so many hacks and insights that they don't have, and having such a larger network and knowing so much. So do you see how both sides don't see the value that they themselves bring? They only see the value that the other party brings. So rock who you are, right? If you're the younger person, rock your fresh perspective. Choose to use your knowledge about technology and social media and bring your new ideas to the table. That's what people want to hear. And if you're an older person, rock your experience and share what's happened at different times in your life and what you've learned from it. And be open to understanding either side of that table, because I promise you, everybody questions themselves once in a while. And it's just funny that the other side doesn't know that the other side's doing the Same thing. Okay. When do you lack confidence? When I fear losing something. Okay, this one takes a little bit to understand. You will never lose something, something that matters. No one can take those away from you that really love you. No one can take away your talents, your skills, your friends, your network, your experiences. You can't lose those things, right? So to fear losing something. And I understand that because when I lost my job when I was in corporate America, fear was the number one way I felt. I felt petrified. I was so scared I didn't know what I was going to do. And that unknown felt really, really scary. However, what I've learned is stepping into that fear will always be the answer, no matter how hard it is in the moment. Trust me. Okay. Wendy. Lack confidence when I'm dating. Okay, I say I get this one. I used to be the same way until I dated my ex and had him on a pedestal. And now I realize he never, ever warranted that. And frankly, no one does. Right? It's not even fair to others to put them on a pedestal. That's putting us beneath them and holding them to some ridiculous standard that's not real. Take others off the pedestal. We all have flaws. You just haven't seen theirs yet. And that is the God's honest truth. Okay. During times of transition, I struggle with confidence. This is a really good one. When there's uncertainty everywhere, which is now, right? The pandemic. We need to find certainty within ourselves. Stop looking outside of you and start looking inside of you. When you believe in yourself, the transition won't matter. And I understand. For some people, they say, oh, that's easier said than done. I get it. I went through it. I've lived through it a few times now. And I remind myself of it even now while I'm in this completely new business and building this new business, this coaching business, you know, do I do everything Purpose quickly? No. Now that I have a few months under my belt, I wish I had started off differently. I wish I had been tracking all my leads. I wish I had been raising prices earlier on. You know, there's so many. I wish I had more offerings. When I first started, I didn't know. You don't know what you don't know until you do it. So you've got to just step into it. Believe in yourself. You'll figure it out and have faith that you will. Okay, where's some more?

Ooh.

I lack confidence when someone I love says something bad to me. Okay. P.S. that person doesn't love you. What kind of A person would say something bad to someone they love, that's not okay. And so what I would say to that one is fire that villain. P.S. see you later, sayonara, out of here. And start choosing people that treat you amazing like you are, and you will feel a lot better. Okay? When do you lack confidence? I lack confidence when I'm public speaking. Okay? This is my jam. This is my thing. And I tell people if that's something you struggle with, you get to sign up for either my mentoring program or my one on one coaching. I can so fix that for you. So here's the thing. I spoke for years in corporate America. I know I've shared this with you. They didn't pay us for it, for the love of God. I don't know why. And so I didn't even know it was a business back then. It's so crazy. Oh, my gosh. I was so unaware. So anyhow, I did it for free forever, which was awesome because I was getting so much experience. And the more you do anything, the more you practice, the more confident you become, right? The more familiar you are with something. It isn't new, it isn't scary. You know, you're afraid you're gonna fall probably by then. You did fall. I tripped on stages. So what, like you realize that you don't die, you keep going. I actually caught my last live speech was at the Intercontinental in Miami for an international financial conference, which was intimidating because I'd never done one. But I found a connection point with these people before I walked in there. And while I was on stage giving my speech, my heel got caught in one of like the. The grates where they connect the stages together. And I almost went down. I didn't, but I almost did. And I laughed so hard I had to stop. I was. I was cracking up laughing and I had to tell everyone I almost wiped out. Thank the Lord I didn't. Did not. Okay. So anyhow, the point is, whatever is going to happen is going to happen. You're going to live, you're going to be fine. If we get egg on our face, so what? It's an experience we can learn from and move on from. I'm going to be cheering you on that you stood up and took the chance on you. The real issue would be not jumping in, not giving this speech and sitting on the sidelines. That sounds tragic and painful and like you're shrinking new no good. Not gonna allow that one to happen. Okay. When do you lack confidence in construction? When men think I don't know what I'm doing and they try to play me. Well, listen, that's an unfair advantage. P.S. they don't know what you know and you already know what you're talking about. Use that to your advantage. They don't even see you coming. I would crush it. So play that up. You know, go in there with innocent and looking like you don't know what you're doing so that we. When you get to the negotiation table and drop Chris boss negotiation tactics on people. They about fall over at the table. They never saw you coming, so they're never going to know what hit them. I love that one. It's so good. Okay, I lack confidence when I'm not disciplined with myself. For example, when I don't put the workout in. Okay, that's easy. You have to hold yourself accountable. That's not about confidence. That's about accountability. So just join an accountability program. Ask someone to be your accountability partner or sign up for my mentoring group program, and I will hold you accountable and so will the entire team. There are solutions. There are plenty of ways to do it. Just do it and stop making excuses to yourself. Oh, wow, this is an interesting one. Okay. When do you lack confidence in loving myself? I love everyone else, but I berate myself for no reason. That is so sad. And I. I had time in my life when I was younger when I used to say not so nice things to myself and I flipped that script, I fired that negative script and instead I rewrote it into a positive one. And I would read it with frequency multiple times a day until I ingrained it in my mind. So much so that now when I'm on the track running and I'm alone and I don't have my music in because my trainer's mean and she doesn't let me, all I think to myself is, I can. I will. You got this, kid. You know you can. Do I really say this over and over again in my mind while I'm running? And I don't try to do it, it just turns on like a button. It's so bizarre. So I've trained myself through discipline and practice to talk myself up. Because if I am not going to be my biggest advocate, who am I looking for to be it for me? Heck, no. I need to be my number one cheerleader, not. Not my number one villain. So if you are your number one villain, it's time to fire that script, rewrite the new one and become your biggest advocate. Become your biggest cheerleader and allow that tape to run all the time and watch the difference. That happens. I'm so excited for you. Okay, if you haven't signed up yet, click the links below. My mentoring program, my one on one coaching is down there. Would love to work with you and can't wait to hear what you thought about this show. Please, please share it on Social. Please leave a review. It helps more than you'll ever know. Until next week. Keep creating confidence and I'll see you then. I decided to change that dynamic. I couldn't be more excited for what you're gonna hear. Start learning and growing. Inevitably something will happen. No one succeeds alone.

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