Confidence Classic: How Exceptional Leaders Map Decisions, Counter Burnout, and Lead Through Crisis with Dr. Richard Winters, Director of Leadership Development, Mayo Clinic

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Leaders, I think we have these areas of expertise where we do make decisions that are rapid based on our experience and our knowledge and all this sort of stuff. But really the majority of our time as we become leaders is kind of shedding that expertise and then stepping back and helping groups, facilitating groups to come together around these really complex issues. Whether that's during times of crisis or whether that's time where we have a little bit of more time to kind of look forward.

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Much as I do. As you all know, COVID 19 and the pandemic and surviving that was a nightmare. But professionals in any industry can look to healthcare professionals for leadership strategy and best practice practices for sure, particularly when facing critical challenges that call for decisive action. That is why our guest today is Dr. Richard Winters. He's an emergency physician at the Mayo Clinic. As Director of Leadership Development for the Mayo Clinic Care Network, Dr. Winters delivers programs that train leaders at all levels of healthcare organizations worldwide. As an executive coach, Dr. Winters provides coaching for male clinic leaders. Dr. Winters graduated from the Mayo Clinic Alex School of Medicine in 1994 and returned to the Mayo Clinic in 2015. Previously, Winters served as managing partner of a Democratic physician group, department chair of an emergency department, president of an 800 physician medical staff, and CEO founder of a startup managed care among hospitals, physicians, patients, competitors, and insurance providers. He lives in Rochester, Minnesota, and he is here with us today. Richard, thank you so much for being here.

Yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate the introduction there.

So, all right, let's get right to it, because so many of my listeners are either younger leaders or people in more senior leadership positions. And we've all watched as what's happened, you know, during the pandemic with hospitals and the shortage of talent and the stress and burnout. What are some of the big picture takeaways that you can share with the audience that you gleaned living and leading through this?

So lots of things changing, changing really fast. And not only in healthcare, but also where you're at and in your industries, things are changing very fast. And so how do you react to that? And what I noticed was that there are some leaders who stepped up and were able to lead quite comfortably in those sorts of circumstances. When we face these very difficult decisions, when things are evolving fast, we do need leaders who can step up and just decide what to do and move forward and then kind of take the input and discover what's going on and then make more decisions. And so it's a bit different than when we were now outside of COVID or evolving outside of COVID where you have some time to react. It's a little bit more like an emergency physician, where you're just kind of reacting in the moment and then moving on.

So you see, certain people thrive in those instances where they need to trust their gut, trust their intuition and act quickly, and others are thriving outside of it totally.

Our best leaders are able to adapt to both circumstances. And so we, we have leaders who can step up really well in crisis. And then when all of a sudden the crisis goes away, they're still trying to command and control and be the general, and that doesn't work so well. And then we have other leaders who may be really good at bringing lots of groups together and getting lots of different perspectives and really bonding with groups, but that doesn't work so well in crisis. And so our best leaders actually can do both of those. They sense the environment and they evolve and kind of flow with the environment.

So what skill do they possess or what traits do they have that these other people don't have?

Yeah, I think that they're sensing the environment. And so there's like, different sort of processes and protocols, things that kind of pop into my mind that help me make sense of the situations. And there's a framework called the Cynefin framework. That's been very helpful for me. And that came out of David Snowden and that was published in HBR, Harvard Business Review, probably early 2000s. And it's a way of looking at the decisions that we're making and choosing the right process for those decisions. And so we are very comfortable making decisions in situations where we like. It's common sense. We all agree, we've been there before and we've done that before. We know what to do and we have best practices for that. That is not an issue. The issue comes when we start to be in this environment where things are changing. And if you get a group of your friends together, a group of your colleagues together, actually, we would all disagree about what's going on, what information to consider, what are the possible outcomes, those sorts of things. And so leading during those times, that's difficult. And during those times, there are times that we need to make decisions right away. There's times where we have a few weeks or a month or so to try to figure this out. And so for me, as I think about that as I'm in a meeting and individuals are disagreeing and emotions are running high, I know that this is probably not the time for me or for my colleagues to say what they think should go on. It's more a time to kind of sit back and think about how to best lead in those sorts of circumstances.

That can be incredibly intimidating and such a pressure cooker when you are in a leadership position where, like you said, things are moving very quickly, tensions are so high. What is your go to personally when you're leading and needing to make decisions in a situation like that?

So let's break it down into the two different situations. And so one is, and this is the most common thing that's going on is that we have this just a really kind of prickly decision that we need to make as a group. And that can be, how are we going to allow resources like, how are we going to change our schedule, how are we going to meet customer demands? And during those situations, we have a bit of time to figure out what basically the room thinks. And so we have a little bit of time to kind of get the perspectives of everyone and to understand what's going on from the colleagues on the right and the colleagues on the left, and to understand what's going on from people outside the room. And then getting all that information together, this sort of shared perspective, this shared sense of reality of what's going on within that sense of reality, there are fears and worries. There's a lot of disagreements, but those are really authentically ways that we're looking at the situation. And so first doing that and then going from there to choose the options and then the way forward that we're going to choose to proceed. What tends to happen for leaders in situations like that is we have a meeting and someone says something and maybe another person says something with a lot of kind of force, a decision is made and then we move forward. And then people feel just like, what was I doing there? Like they didn't hear me. I think we're going in the wrong direction. And so what's going on? I think that's a very common thing that we all experience.

Yeah, well, when you were just describing that situation, immediately my mind went to being in corporate America and a bully being at the table. And typically, you know, some leadership strategies or, you know, their presence lends itself to be more of a bully and they've found success that way and experience, especially in tense situations. So when you were just explaining that, immediately, someone popped into my head that always wanted to be the loudest at the table, that always wanted to pound a fist to try to get attention. And for some people, shockingly, it actually works and they get their way. But to your point, after that meeting, the longer term impact ends up being regardless of what that decision was in the moment, so negative for the culture, for the team, and for people feeling like they don't have a voice. I just don't understand how that tactic still happens or people are still behaving that way.

Yeah, it's interesting. So as an executive coach, so I coach leaders in our organization, outside our organization. Those bullies, those people who stand up, are oftentimes individuals that I'm coaching. And what they're wanting to do is, geez, I wish I could just, I wish I was not speaking up all the time. I can hear myself and I wish I could quiet down, but I have a sense that I need to speak my mind to make things go, because that's what a leader does. And so we go through the coaching process of how to like, okay, so what would it be like if you spoke less? What would it be like if you allowed others to say things? On the other hand, there's individuals that I coach who are, they're quiet during meetings, they're wanting to speak up, they don't feel safe speaking up. And so it's weird to have both individuals in the same meeting, both wanting things to go well, but then not having it go well. And So I think that's where process really comes in, where we try to figure out how we're running meetings in a way so that both the loud voices get heard, but also the people who have different perspectives and maybe feel less safe speaking up so that they can also be heard before we start to move forward. And that's really, I think, the job of the leader, the person running the meeting, kind of facilitating this. Different perspectives, rising up in a way that's safe for the group and then moving forward.

You know what happens though? In a fast paced world, most people aren't being thoughtful about this going into a meeting, right? This head leader, whoever's in charge of the meeting or who's called the meeting, they're not taking that 10 or 15 minutes ahead of time to be really thoughtful and think, how can I ensure everybody's heard? And, and I guarantee in the majority of meetings, most people sitting at that table are the ones who are more fearful of speaking up versus you know, there's less bullies and there's more people who are afraid to share their voice. How do you encourage, if that leader isn't being thoughtful, how do you encourage that person you're coaching to speak up when they might be nervous?

I mean, I think as we're reading anything in the news today, we're seeing that individuals are burned out. We're seeing that there's a lot of churn at organizations where people go to an organization, then move to the next and then move to the next. And this is a real issue just in running a business. And if you're a leader and you're running an organization with sort of a crisis culture, which is I'm going to run into, you know, I'm going to have a meeting, bring people together and I'm going to tell people what to do or the loud voices are going to tell people what to do, it's not going to go over well. I mean, you're going to be in a situation then where people are leaving, where people are feeling like they're not being heard and you're going to become less effective and you're going to be less able to kind of react to the things that you need to react to as you're trying to be successful moving forward. And so it's not only like, geez, wouldn't it be great if everyone got together and we made good decisions and we were kind of sensible as we're approaching that, even if you're like evil leader and you decided that you didn't care about the individual effects on people. It's still not a good way of making decisions because your quality is going to go down, your churn is going to go up, and it's just going to be hurting the organization. And so this is really for us to be able to respond to these really complex situations that we faced face. It makes sense for us to figure out how to bring groups of people together, share different perspectives, and then move forward.

You know, especially in the climate we're currently living in, it is. It's very challenging to bring different groups of people together and have a conversation when there are very different points of views. Especially during political seasons where people get so heightened and so angry. How do you approach that to diffuse the situation somewhat?

So I think that happens when we have back channels and you can look at social media and there's lots of back channels. And if I'm on one back channel, I'm saying something, it can be completely different than my colleague who has this different point of view. And as we're on those back channels, the differences that we have just heighten. It just increases and increases. Same thing happens in our organizations. And so if you're running a meeting and the leader is speaking up and maybe the other loud voice is speaking up and you're moving things in a direction, there are back channels there that are going to be moving in the background and then again making things not so successful. But as you have these friends and colleagues who have different political ideas, different religious ideas, different values and those sorts of things, as people come together and start to share opinions, you start to see that actually they're not so different. And in many cases, the differences of opinion are really a part of the whole. I mean, it's a part. Things aren't necessarily yes or no, things aren't necessarily right or wrong. There's often shades of gray. And in understanding these different perspectives, it helps the group to move forward in ways that are more together than kind of back channel separate, you know, kind of behind the back.

Have you found any ways to end the back channels?

I think you bring it forward. And so honestly, I think during meetings. So it's one thing having a meeting on site where everyone's together in the same room. It's another idea then having meetings through zoom or through other kind of video conferencing thing. And so how do we bring people together in those sorts of environments? As I'm running retreats and things like that, what we do is we have breakout groups. And so it's not just an agenda. We're going to pile through this sort of agenda. This is what you do. This is what you do. This is what you do. What we're going to do is we're going to have moments of the meeting where we're going to ask a big question about some complex problem and then we're going to have people kind of separate, talk together, think out by themselves what they think, and then come back together and then share perspectives as groups. And so these are things that we could do during meetings, can have IRL in real life or URL on things like Zoom, where we have breakout groups where we discuss all these different perspectives and then we share them together as we come together again. The nice thing about that is that as you break people into smaller groups, then there's maybe some more kind of safety there. You can say things that you may not feel so comfortable with because maybe that loud person's in the other group. And then as you're doing group report outs, then, you know, Winters said this, you know, it's, it's something that in our group, this came up and then all of a sudden you can surface these different ideas, meet a different guest each week.

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I asked you to try to find your passion so you've got a new book Out. Now you're the leader. Now what? Why or what compelled you to write this book?

So I'm an emergency physician, right? And patients come in and you're like, okay, now what? That's something that's kind of been a lifelong thing as a physician. But then as I became a leader and kind of running organizations, I'd find myself in these situations where I'm thinking, like, now what do I do? And then as I was coaching leaders, the same thing. People would come with these really thorny issues, these issues where people are disagreeing, all their colleagues are kind of bickering, and then they're looking to you and saying, like, now what? What do we do? And that's why I wrote the book. And I think there's kind of a couple things. One is that we are so common in kind of leaning back on our own expertise. And so in situations like we're talking about these meetings where there's really complex things going on, we all. Despite how complex the situations are, whatever topic comes up, you, I, many of us know exactly what to do in that moment, what we would do if your friend comes to you and says, hey, I'm having difficulty with this relationship. Like, we know what to do. If a friend comes up to us and says, hey, I have this issue going on in work, we know what to do. It's because we are kind of primed to be able to reflexively just say, this is what I think. And as we become leaders, there are things that we're expert at that got us to that point. And so for me, as an emergency physician, I go in, I see patients, take a brief history, and then I write orders. Like, not suggestions. I write orders. Right. And so then as I become a leader, is that how you lead effectively? No. Right. So, like, run a meeting and then say, okay, this is what I think, and then write orders. I've heard what you all have to say, but after careful consideration, I've come to the conclusion you're all incorrect. It doesn't.

I wouldn't like working for that person.

No. And so as leaders, I think we have these areas of expertise where we do make decisions that are rapid, based on our experience and our knowledge and all this sort of stuff. But really, the majority of our time as we become leaders is kind of shedding that expertise and then stepping back and helping groups, facilitating groups to come together around these really complex issues, whether that's during times of crisis or whether that's time where we have a little bit of more time to kind of look forward.

I would think that it's challenging for people who have been doing something like yourself for a long time, like you said, writing orders, and you're in this habit and routine. How do you get yourself to pump those brakes then, as a leader and say, I'm not going to do what I've always done, but I'm going to take a step back and be much more thoughtful.

So for me, as a teenager and then I grew up and then went to medical school, I had no idea how to take care of patients and then go to medical school, and then all of a sudden I start to learn about parts of the body and disease processes and things that we can do to help people get better. Then I become an emergency medicine resident, and now I know how to take care of patients when they come in the door. Like with lots of different things. That's all process and knowledge coming together. And so as leaders, we have a lot of knowledge. I think a lot of us coming together as organizations is having the processes that help to come together and look around kind of blind spots. And it's helpful for us to develop this sort of common language about that. And so let me refer back to the, you know, as I was talking about the Cynefin framework. It's helpful for us to know that there are certain situations where best practice work, where these are the things that we've always done and they always work in the situation. Like, I know how to sit in a chair. Bottom first, we would all agree upon that. We all know how. So when a patient comes in with a trauma into the emergency department, and there are set things that we do, there are best practices that we do, we all agree upon them.

Okay?

So now put that aside. So those are the things we all agree upon. Those are easy. Then there are decisions where it actually requires expertise. And so if I have a patient who's having a heart attack, I'm going to call a cardiologist. I'm not going to call an orthopedic surgeon. They have different expertise. And so there are these situations that we face in our kind of organizational lives where you want to ask marketing what's going on, you want to ask engineering what's going on. And those are the complicated sorts of things. And so it's helpful for us to be sitting in meetings and saying, yeah, I think this is best practice. Okay, yeah, I think this is complicated. Let's ask the experts. It's also helpful for us to know there are those times when we're all disagreeing and when the emotions are running high, that we're in a space where actually we need to stop our expertise, we need to stop leveraging our past practices and we need to start coming together as groups to make decisions. Just that alone can be helpful. Because what often happens is we're sitting in meetings and you have an individual who thinks, well, this is best practice. I don't know why we're even talking about this. Someone else is like, well, I'm the expert. I've been through this. Do you know I did this before? Why don't you just listen to me? And then someone else who's thinking, you know, I think this is a lot bigger than what we're thinking and we need to. So we're very confused and we don't even come together as a group about what sort of, of process we should be using to be making the decision. And so that's an example for a leader. Just if the leader knows that process, they can be aware of it. And then if everyone in the group knows the process. Now we have this kind of common language. I think what's coming going on right now is this is a complex issue and maybe we need to step back. The loud voices maybe need to be less loud, the softer voices maybe need to be raised and we need to come together around all these disagreements.

That's very well said. When you were talking about that, it was reminding me I was in the radio business for a long time, which is a very traditional business, meaning it was a business in decline and people had done things the same way, the best practices for too long. And so it was an interesting version of what you're explaining in that we would be in meetings and all anyone wanted to talk about was the way we've always done it, the best practices. We all know that these are the go tos. But it was clear from a revenue standpoint, as revenues were declining and declining and declining, we can't lean on these best practices anymore. And it was very, very hard to, to get people who were stuck in a certain framework of attachment to best practices. That idea of letting go of that and testing and trying different things. Have you had success getting people to move away from something that they've been attached to for so long?

Yeah, I mean, there's such a tension there because there's what's always been working for us. And yeah, times change and stuff. But you know what? Our tradition is this, our culture is based on this and these are the things that have always worked. And if you start to tweak that it makes some individuals very uncomfortable. It feels like it's actually a separation of the organization. Like, this is now different. But on the other hand, like best practices, by definition, past practice, there are things that we have done in the past that we no longer do because they no longer work. And so how do we remain aware and make sure that we're kind of aligned with our tradition and the culture and those sorts of things. But on the other hand, making sure that these best practices that we have right now, they actually still fit. And so I think as a group, it's sort of a group decision whether this is fitting. And then also the data starts to show us that, you know what, this is not working, which is why we're here talking about this. It's not working. And so let's start to figure out how to move forward.

You talk a lot about deferring to the group and being inclusive of all the voices within the group. But at some point, a leader needs to make a decision. How and when do you decide when that time is right?

Yeah, true. Yeah. So an ineffective leader is gonna be someone who always says, okay, let's get the group together. Let's all come together. Because there are times you need to make decisions. And I think there's a few things there to think about. One is the leader is there to protect the mission, the values of the organization. And so if there's a sense that we're running off kilter here, from a perspective of what our values of the organization, what our mission is, and those the leader just needs to say, stop. This is what we're going to do moving forward. That's kind of an easy thing. I think the other thing is that there are those times during crisis where we don't have times. And let's go back to Covid, where Covid is. We're hearing about it. It's going on over there. I don't think it's going to be a big deal. And then all of a sudden, it starts to impact our lives. And all of a sudden, it is a very big deal, and it's hurting a lot of individuals. We don't have times there for leaders to bring everyone together and figure out what to do. And you can think in all of our organizations like a tornado rips through town, and all of a sudden our supply chain is cut off. You can't bring people together to have a kumbaya about what to do moving forward. You can't put together task forces. A leader needs to step up. And so during those times, the leader has incomplete information. No one knows all the information and what the possible outcomes are. But those are the times when the leader has to kind of use some of their expertise and then project out what they think might be happening in the future, kind of role play and just make decisions. So now you have a leader who's making decisions based on missions and values. You have a leader who steps up during crisis. And then I think a lot of the other times it's the leader kind of supervising and getting experts and other leaders involved to be able to bring groups together to make more decisions more effectively.

It's not an easy job. It's definitely not an easy job for someone who's faint of heart. So I feel so much what you're sharing. There's a lot that goes into all this. Can you talk to us a little bit about mapping your decisions?

Yeah. And so that's the Cynefin framework. That is really the figuring out whether something is clear, complicated, complex or chaotic. And as we get groups then together to understand that sort of situation, then we can start to approach things in decisions that are better like we've mapped out. Okay, this is a complicated decision. Let's give it to the expert. This is a complex decision. Let's get a group of people together and develop some shared reality around this decision before we start to think about what are the options we might choose and then how we're actually going to move forward.

So it's important to define what something is first and then apply whatever that appropriate processes. Yeah.

Otherwise we're just reacting and not being.

Effective, which is what happens to most people.

Yeah, totally. I mean, there's this cartoon that I love and it's a cartoon that is of a rhino that's an artist and it's painting on this canvas and it's painting these beautiful scenes, you know, like the Serengeti and the forest and the mountains. And in each of these, each of these paintings on the canvas is this huge rhino horn in the center of it. And the rhino is stepping back, so proud of these paintings. But what the rhino doesn't realize, that the rhino has painted itself in every single portrait. And the rhino feels that everyone else is seeing the same thing. We all get that way. I mean, we all kind of look at our environment and we're a part of it. And we have these. We have our expertise, we have our experience and we have these ideas of the way things are. But there's a lot of blind spots that we have. Like, we have our own kind of big Rhino horns in the center of our vision. And so how can we, as groups, get together? Each of us has this data that we've. That we've analyzed. But how can we start to help each other look around our own blind spots? And that a good leader is able to take groups of people together and start to see maybe the scene in a more real way?

I also have been in situations where no data has been analyzed and people are just coming into meetings with sheer will or opinion and really no information or basis for it. Yeah.

What happens then?

It doesn't go very well. Right?

Yeah. And I think that in itself is data. We don't really have an understanding. So what do you think is going on? What does your colleague think is going on? We pull all this stuff together, and then we come up with some options for the way to move forward. And so let's step back again. So there's some leaders. This is going to depend on the organization. There are organizations where leaders are really highly affiliative, where they want a big collaborative process to make decisions. There are other organizations where the leader is going to make the decision. And both of those situations, they both work. Those organizations work quite well with those different styles. But in both of those organizations, you still need to have this kind of broader perspective of what's going on. And so for a leader who's making all the decisions still, to have people come together with all their different perspectives, all their different fears and worries, all their different ideas of what's going on, their differences of opinion, their agreements, to look at this kind of broad perspective is still helpful for that leader who's going to be making the decision. More helpful than if they were to be making the decision alone from behind their own blind spots?

Absolutely. And what is the role that burnout plays in this? When you're in these really tense situations? What is a leader supposed to do? How do they identify burnout and how do they handle it?

So what is burnout? First of all, I guess it's a combination of emotional exhaustion and cynicism and decreased effectiveness. And so we all at times get exhausted where we no longer feel kind of the happiness of the world that happens. But then when you start to pair this with cynicism and I think there used to be a cartoon I used to watch where there's this character named Glum, and they'd go on these adventures, kind of like Scooby Doo, where they go find and meet this, solve this crime or go do this thing. And Glum was always there, and he Was always saying, we're never going to make it, we're never gonna make it. And then Glum's friends were always like, so, like, be positive. Glum and Glum was like, I'm positive we're never going to make it. Right. So you start to combine exhaustion with cynicism. We're never going to make it. And then you have decreased effectiveness. That is what burnout is. And so why do people get burned out? So why do people get exhausted? I think there are some things, you know, individually from our own kind of wellness. Are we sleeping? Are we eating? Are we exercising? Have people been nice to us? Have we had good interactions? Those are all things. How are we making sense of the situation? Like there are things where I feel trapped, where maybe I'm not trapped, maybe it's the way I'm making sense of the situation. Those things can have an effect. And I think up to this point there's been a lot of focus on that, on what the individuals do or don't do that causes burnout. But we exist within organizations and so are we feeling like we're engaged with the organization? Do we feel like our well being is supported by the organization? Is the organization making decisions in ways that support our well being? And so what is well being? Well being is this combination of this alignment with purpose, the sense that we are within our organization, we agree with their values, the mission and what they're trying to achieve. And we're in alignment with that. When that's out of alignment, not so good. Autonomy, a sense that we're being heard. And so if you're sitting in that meeting and the loud voice comes on and you're not being heard, your sense of autonomy, of being participating in the decisions is going to go down. A sense of that you have the resources that you need. So environmental mastery, A sense that, okay, you're responsible for this, but you actually have the resources that you need to do this. A sense that you're personally growing, a sense that you're getting better today than you were yesterday, that you're learning new things, that you're getting new positions, things that you want to do, a sense that you're having good relations with your colleagues, and then a sense that you're actually able to accept when you're making mistakes. Those are all the things that go into psychological well being. It's a nice kind of recipe for a leader. And so from the perspective of purpose, what am I doing to help my colleagues get around me and around the organization and align? Feel like they're aligned with a sense of purpose. Are we telling stories based upon how we're fulfilling our mission? Are we telling stories based upon our values? Are our leaders embodying the values that we are saying? Are we saying that we value teamwork, but yet we're making decisions with leaders alone? There's probably something there that the leaders can do from a sense of autonomy. Are we hearing people? Are we hearing the different voices? Are we allowing individuals to speak? We're talking about diversity, but are we actually listening to all the diverse perspectives of the individuals in the room? And so a leader can help that with processes of how they're running meetings and how they're meeting one to one with individuals. In terms of resources, do the people that you're giving responsibility to have the resources that they need to actually do the things that they're responsible for? Are we not empowering them, actually disempowering them to not be able to fulfill their mission and the things that they're wanting to do? So these are the things that the leader steps back and you kind of look at burnout. You can see that the leader has a huge effect on that. And then organizationally, how are we looking at this? Are we looking at whether our employees, our colleagues are burned out? And if so, are we doing anything about it? Isn't it important to us? How are we making decisions? How are we telling our values and displaying these throughout the organization? And so there's all these different levels, from the leadership level to the individual level, that has this huge effect on an individual's sense of burnout or not.

Meet a different guest each week. I ask you to try to find your passion and choose from. What do you think leaders should do when you do identify that someone is nearing burnout or is burnt out? Because in my experience, when you see someone who's being cynical at work, you know, that can create a domino effect amongst people that can be very, very negative for culture, negatively impact different teams, and really cause a lot of upset. But at the same time, I've worked alongside with leaders who didn't want to call out and embrace or give someone time off because they think that other people will just take, you know, oh, this is an opportunity to get time off. How can a leader handle that situation effectively?

Yes, and you raised something great. So let's say, Heather, let's pretend that you're burned out. And you come to me and so I'm like, okay, Heather, geez, you know, I've been burned out before. I recommend you read this book. And this is what I've seen work, and this is what's worked for me. Okay, good conversation, move along. That's oftentimes what happens like this. Our conversations with colleagues are, how can I help you? How can I help fix you? That doesn't really tend to work out. And so for a leader to meet with someone on that perspective, not so helpful. What would it be like, though, if I approached you and said, so, you know, tell me about what's going on. What are you thinking? Like, what's been working for you? I hear you on the one hand say this, on the other hand you're saying this. How do you put these things together? Like, what do you want to do to move forward? What's your goal here? It's a very different approach. It's no longer, am I the expert? It's now you're the expert of the situation. And so what I'm doing is I'm coaching you. I'm asking you questions that help you make sense of what's going on in your life. And at some point, there may be something that you say that I think. You know what, there's some information I'm not sure that Heather knows. Would it be helpful if I told you this and then I teach you a little bit? So I don't know if you know this, but it's from what I've heard, professional athletes get in these cycles where if they overtrain and they overwork, then they get injured. And what they've started to do is they started to put in some time for recovery because stress plus rest equals growth. And my sense is that you're in this place of stress and. And there's not a lot of rest. What are your thoughts about that? So I pepper in a little bit of knowledge there. It's not me telling you what to do. I'm sharing something and then you're processing it. And so really, our good leader knows how to do that. And as we're talking about leaders, that doesn't necessarily mean someone with a title. I think you know leaders at all levels, and you can be a leader in your organization and hold no title and still be the person that everyone goes to to try to figure out what to do next. And so that ability to coach, to be able to help someone see things through their own eyes and make sense of the world in their own way, I think that's helpful for individuals in burnout, in individuals at many other stages of what's going on.

The things that you were suggesting people to say it sounded more to me like a mediator or a negotiation expert, which is super interesting. You know, tell me more, tell me more about that. You know, getting that other person to empty their glass, which in my opinion is key whenever you're trying to lead anyone is to find out where people are truly coming from. Whereas that's typically the breakdown that we just have no idea.

Totally. Yeah. And on the other hand, if. If that same leader was not doing them, just approached with, this is what you need to do. This is what I've seen others do. All right, good talk. Move along. You know, and then the leader's like, ah, that was great. And then the person's like, not so great.

That happens far too often. Okay, talk to us about amplifying engagement.

Yeah, so amplifying engagement is. So what is engagement? That's really people offering their time to the organization to help the organization meet its customer needs and the needs of the organization. And so when employees are engaged, they are involved and they're adequately. I mean, they're giving their time to the organization to improve things. When they're disengaged, they may be there in body or, you know, on zoom, but they're not there in mind and they're not really putting a lot of effort in. And so how do you engage them? And I think that that's. There's kind of pairs with well being. And so the things that engage me are the things that help me feel better, like, help me feel aligned with the organization. And so that goes with, again, the sense of autonomy, the sense that I have the resources that I need or that I help get those resources, A sense that I'm growing and I'm learning new things, A sense that I'm aligned with the purpose and values of the organization, the sense that I go to work or have these meetings and I feel like I'm heard and we're all coming together. And you know what? I would not have done that. I thought that we should have done the other thing. But now after talking about it and hearing other people's perspectives, I can kind of see why we're doing that. Those are all things that get people engaged. It's this sense that what they do makes a difference that's so important.

Knowing that you make it, having that purpose or that feeling of meaning or inclusion makes a all the difference. Especially during difficult times when it's tough to even show up to work.

Yeah. And I think we tend to reduce this to like, oh, it's money. People need to be paid more money. Or they need money. It really. People will do so much when they feel engaged as part of the organization.

So are some of the tactics that you've had success with are creating like these little micro groups within an organization, you know, teams of whatnot, different people who are champions for a certain cause. You would be a fan of doing something like that.

And I like what you said there too, because there's, let's say, within a department, I mean, there can be 50 people, let's say in a department, and they don't necessarily know each other. They're not necessarily interacting. And that's been really heightened by Covid and remote work. That's not because of COVID or the remote work. It's because of the way that we're kind of running meetings and getting together. As we start to get groups of people together in small groups to talk and share ideas and perspectives about these really complex situations, people, they get together and they start to feel good about that. So that's within your department, but then also it's interdepartmentally. And so how are we working with engineers who are thinking that marketing doesn't know what they're doing or vice versa? The engineers, they just want to do these features and no one cares about those. And so how do we get those groups together? It's the same sort of process. You want people to interact kind of pre Covid or maybe now post Covid. One of the most effective ways when I had physician groups that weren't getting along was to get the two of them together for dinner and have them just talk, you know, that way. And all of a sudden this. These individuals who used to be, you know, the individuals on the other side of the monitor or the phone are now real humans. And it just helps things move along.

Oh, my gosh. That's sales 101. You know, when you want to retain a great client is get them to a restaurant, get to know them, get to understand their pain points, what they care about in life, and get them to see you as a real person. So the next time there is a challenge or a problem, which inevitably there will be, they're going to pick up the phone and call you and have empathy for you. And that same goes to your point for these people that you're working with within the same building or within the same company, it's such basic 101. But it does not happen enough.

It's so true. And, you know, a common thing is I, you know, I feel alone or I don't. How do I Network. Well, pick up the phone, send an email, and just ask someone to meet with them. I heard you're doing this. Tell me about it. That's it. That's as simple as that.

It shows interest in the other person. 99% of the time, that person's going to be excited to tell you about it is the way that I would approach it and think that most people would understand it.

Well said. Yep.

So tell us, who is this book for?

It's for leaders at all levels. And so it's for people who are running organizations and they find themselves in these situations where they're not sure what to do, how to bring people together. It's for them, but it's also for those of us who are sitting in meetings. It really seems like the same meeting we just had last week and the same meeting we had last year, and nothing is changing. And what is going on. And I feel dumb because I just spoke up. The book will help take you through why you might be feeling that way and how perhaps you and the group can become more effective in doing and moving forward.

Oh, my gosh. That just reminds me of those memes out there that yet again, another meeting that could have been an email. I mean, it's so. It happens so often, and it's like Groundhog Day over and over again. So thank you for explaining that you're the leader now. What? Where can people find the book?

At any bookstore? Any bookstore.

Where can they find you then, Dr. Winters?

So, first of all, I'm going to say that I hope they don't find me in the emergency department, but richardwinters.com is where you can find information about the book. And I'm also on Twitter at drrwinters.

Well, you are not the standard doctor. Thank you for speaking to us in words that we could understand. Thank you for writing this book. You're the leader now. What? And I appreciate the work you're doing. Thank you for being here today.

Thank you, Heather.

All right, guys, until next week, keep creating your confidence. I decided to change that dynamic. I couldn't be more excited for what you're going to hear. Start learning and growing. Inevitably, something will happen. No one succeeds alone.

You don't stop and look around once in a while.

You could miss it. Come on this journey with me.