From 30 Direct Reports to Back-to-Back $1M Years as a Solo Recruiter with Zach Creighton

Before we dive into today's conversation, I want to quickly shine a light on the 3 partners who are behind the mission of the podcast this year. First up, we have Atlas. This isn't just another CRM with AI added on as an afterthought. Atlas 2.0 is the first platform in our space built with AI from the ground up and at its core. Next up, we have our longtime partner Sourcewell. You may know them as a world-class outbound sequence freelancing tool, but they fully evolved into a multi-modular system. And the best part is you can plug and play their tools from the AI note-taker to the inbox agent, all without ripping out your entire tech stack. And finally, Raise. They remain the most powerful way to fund and run your contract book if you want to unlock cash flow and scale your agency with total confidence. You have to check them out. So if you go to the link in the description below, you're going to be able to get access to exclusive offers to all three of our partners this year. Let's get into this week's episode. Zach, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks, mate. Really, really excited to be here. Appreciate the invite.

Joining me from Dallas. A lot of, as you'll know, a lot of recruiters are taking their career, their life to the States. You did that at 23 years old, so we was early on, on this US American dream journey. But our goal today with this conversation is you've been on this entrepreneurial journey, your own recruitment business, for the last pretty much like 2 years when we're recording this. And we're gonna really break down how that first year was for you, what really worked, what didn't. A lot of people were interested in. How did you go about bringing on your own clients? You walked away from a really reputable brand, a big brand. How is it all going to work when you go out on your own? We're going to talk about the trade-offs of being a solo operator and how that's been hard, and things that maybe sometimes don't get spoken about as openly. Brought someone on the journey, and I know you want to grow this business, and we're going to talk a bit about what that's been like, what's been hard about it. And we're gonna unpack these last 2 years and what's to come. So to give people some context, you launch your recruitment business with RecruitHub, but prior to that worked for 2 brands that I feel like a good number of people may know. Worked for Hamlin Williams and then also, uh, worked for one of the brands within Faden, Selby Jennings. So where we wanted to start was what it was like walking away from that, because I know for a lot of people that first step can be hard to really get to, particularly when they might be thinking, am I as good as I think I am? Is it the brand that I have behind me? Is it that that's doing a lot of the legwork? Could I actually do this on my own? So just talk me through how you thought about that, because that is something that is a concern for people wanting to take that step, particularly when they come from household names, big brands. What was your thought process there? Did you have some of those concerns? Talk us through where your head was at when we was thinking about taking that first step and being part of a big brand, a big organization.

Yeah, I mean, honestly, mixed emotions. I think On one hand, I'm walking away from a business I've been so close to and had been such a big part of my life and kind of the peaks and troughs that come with the territory of my role. But I think also like it was the people that also I thought about a lot of, you know, you see kind of young hungry grads come through the door and transform their lives and playing a part in that is really cool and definitely just one of the most rewarding or, you know, rewarding parts to a grad hiring model. But, you know, I think we all know it's never plain sailing in recruitment. And sort of I've gone through the trials and tribulations and honestly, just like pushing through some of the harder times of a big agency and like coming out the other side was actually just a pull factor to staying because I've worked so hard to steer the ship in the right direction through some difficult markets. Um, you know, things getting back to where they should be. And then I'm sort of walking away from one, all that sweat equity, but also like the financial equity as well. But also, but it's how much conviction does somebody need to have to determine that they're in the wrong place? And I suppose I just had the conviction to realize that I just wanted to do more, having spent like so many years building businesses for other people. And I'm hugely thankful for the opportunities I was given, you know, and to move to the US and sort of the trust that was, that was put in me to take on bigger and better roles. But I realized quite quickly when I was thinking about it that I was far more galvanized at the thought of just growing my own recruitment firm, my own recruitment business, than I was to turn up every day and just have like a, like an imbalance of my inputs versus my rewards. So yeah, like it was— I didn't think about it too long, if I'm being honest, but I think there was this like guilt for the team and perhaps anticipating this, this forward-looking regret. But mostly excitement, and I was just buzzing and just wanted to, to push on, really.

Yeah, really, really honest account there. So, because, because I know that's something that sometimes would maybe be the reason why no one ever actually takes that, that leap.

Yeah.

But what was— what, what's been— and I know you're likely going to be thinking there's always more you can be doing, plenty to, to improve on, but in your first year you did a million dollars. Yeah, which is pretty impressive for the first year, as well as because this is going to be net new, a lot of this stuff. Yeah, uh, that you're doing. So really impressive, which is why I know a lot of people are going to be very curious on how you achieved that. And I know by the time you left, you had circa, or at some point had like 30 direct reports. How Remind us again, how was you very detached from the tools and client-facing by the time you left? Because that's another concern people can have, is if you do well in an organization that's scaled, you end up having direct reports and you end up a lot of the time not being close to the, the customers and being in the trenches. And that can be another, oh shit, can I do that? Can I recruit again? Can I back myself and build, because oftentimes people haven't done that for a little while when they've grown in the business.

Yeah, no, 100%. And that's probably one of the biggest things that people do consider when they're like, you know, can I go on my own? And I've been off the tools for X amount of years, and we've seen it a lot recently. There's a lot of founders that have gone out from very respectable businesses where they've scaled teams and done that really well, but fundamentally the skill set just changes. Like, you've become more operationally aligned than you do kind of sales aligned. So, and I think, mate, that's been one of the biggest joys of getting back in the weeds for me is, you know, I think what was happening for me was just that, like, I was leading a team, I was becoming too operationally aligned and veering too far away from what I love. And, you know, having lots of meetings with accounting and back office and, you know, sort of tech support stuff, you know, and making sure people's laptops worked and whatnot. So I think for me it was, you know, it was very much a case of I wanted to get back to doing what I really loved doing instead of telling people how to do the job versus doing it myself and just getting back in the traffic and into execution because that's what I'm really passionate about. And so, I mean, I was doing a lot of business development work. You know, ultimately when you come from a grad hiring model, you know, you can't expect grads to walk in and bring on a client or two a month. So a lot of my work was, yes, sort of team development and, you know, L&D and sort of mentorship and sort of strategy and so on. But I was, I was doing a lot of client work, so I was trying to like hold on to that as much as I could. But the bigger the team gets, the, the less time you have to do that. And then you have to sort of sit, sit down and have a real sort of tough conversation with yourself of, you know, do I sit there and spend hours in a day trying to bring on new clients to feed the team, knowing that the business model is 360 and it's very much kind of eat what you kill, and that, you know, the team needs to be doing that themselves. And then also conditioning them to know, okay, well, that's going to bring on business, you know, versus, you know, actually spending time with people and making sure that, you know, I could snowball, you know, people with high potential and spend time with those that perhaps needed, needed more, more time investment and support. So yeah, I think for me it was just, it was such a breath of fresh air to just sort of get back on it. I remember the first day I'm sitting down and I was just like making some calls. I was like, yeah, this is, this is class. This is exactly what I wanted to, to be doing for so long, and I, I hadn't done it for a few years. So yeah, it was, it was great.

Yeah, I do think if you're listening to this right now, have that entrepreneurial drive at some point to go out on your own, if that's really resonated with you, where you're feeling like what Zach said, very operationally aligned that I, I can't see in most recruitment companies that they'd hold you back from being more client-facing. So if you're listening to this and you do maybe have that long-term ambition to go out on your own, I think personally in today's world you really want to stay close to that client development, client-facing, understanding the nuances of what your team are coming up against, understanding your ecosystem, your world. I think you really want to lean back into that if you found yourself— if we're being honest more operationally led. So that's just a bit of a, a note or a highlight point there that you held on to that, and that's definitely going to help in this chapter for you now versus you 80-90% development, telling people how to do the job versus doing it yourself and opening up doors for people. So I think that's a really good note for people to just be mindful of that. And what So how did you approach in terms— I know we spoke about this, people always like to hear this— shared what you managed to achieve in year 1, which will go into how we achieved that, what were some of the things that we felt like you did really well. Yeah, you shared with me that— you shared with me that you sold your car. Like, what I always like to ask people, because I think it's good to hear people's— everyone's different, everyone has a diff— different risk tolerance, so it's personal. What was the— this is my recruitment agency business pot money for self-funding this. I know you partnered with RecruitHub, but you're self-funding this, so yeah, what did that look like?

So I mean, look, I was trying to just— I mean, some people will find themselves in a position when they're starting a business where they need investment, and perhaps this is because they want to grow headcount to 10 in the first 6 months. I always had the intention of bootstrapping it, and so you just need to make good commercial decisions, both professionally and personally. The biggest thing is I'm not playing with house money anymore, you know, and that hire that doesn't quite work out, you know, well, that's then cost me, you know, 200 grand. So I kind of looked, I was again trying to anticipate, you know, the potential downfalls of, okay, well, what could go wrong and am I, do I have some structure in place to ensure that, okay, well, there's some contingency if it doesn't work out the way I want it to. So I didn't necessarily, you know, fortunately had runway and I was very intentional about, although I sort of made the decision to start the business fairly quickly and it wasn't a 2-year sort of sitting on mulling over, you know, sort of a 3, 4 months before I resigned, I thought, look, I want to do this. I still realized that, okay, probably having a big car payment is not really particularly smart. I'm also going to be working from home, so I don't need a 5-liter V8 supercharged Range Rover sort of thing, um, you know. So I kind of got to a point where I was like, okay, this is, this is silly, I don't need this. So yeah, I sort of looked at where I can kind of trim the fat a little bit, you know, financially, and just make sure that, you know, I was in a position that, um, you know, a healthy financial position and, and one that allowed me to, to grow organically. So you just have to make— even though you don't have to make those decisions, I think they're important just as a sort of buffer. So I had money in the bank, you know, and I had, you know, I was in a fairly fortunate position. And having been in recruitment for over a decade, you know, you have your savings there and run well to make sure. Yeah, hopefully. So yeah, it was, although I wasn't, you know, I'm not going to make out that it was, you know, some sort of hero story. It was, you know, I was in a fairly good position and um, you know, that, that honestly pushed me to do it sooner, that I was in a, you know, reasonable financial position to go ahead and pull the trigger.

Yeah, and I appreciate you sharing that. So talk us through— so launch in April 2024. Talk us through— remind me, did you— was you very clear on— I know we spoke about the, the niche and how that developed, but if we met up that April in 2024, there or thereabouts, and I said what's the plan? Do you have a niche? What are you focusing on? Was that really built then, or did it evolve in that first year? Because I know you've, you've become laser focused and you, you have that. But, but remind us, did you have that at the very start? Because I know this is something also a lot of founders can spend a lot of time thinking about and can be quite hard as well, because when you are out on your own you've no longer got a manager over your shoulder saying, hey Zach, that's out of your patch, you can't say yes to that, you need to give that to the other team. And you can end up just following the money, and that can sometimes be good, that can sometimes result in you wasting a lot of time. So did you have that, that niche developed from the get-go? Because tell us about that.

Yeah, I mean, yes I did. Um, I mean, look, the, the first thing I wanted to do was obviously break down fairly granularly my market focus, you know, what's, what's your ICP So I already knew that from day one. So going in on April 1st, 2024, you know, I had a very clear— well, I say that, I mean, I did actually eliminate. So I initially had added compliance because it marries up quite nicely with the risk market. But then I also realized it's just doing too much, which we can get onto. So, you know, it's really double down on the risk and analytics space because that's what I've done for so long. And, you know, it's just I'm very comfortable in that market and the vast majority of my network is there. And then I looked at sort of other markets that were, you know, sort of where there was a supply-demand imbalance that was big enough to warrant me going out and building that. So I was very clear on this, this finance and accounting piece as being kind of a growth market. And then, you know, sticking to what I know really well to generate fees fairly quickly with the network I really have preexisting. So yeah, and it really made the day one, you know, building the desk just far easier versus, you know, going through a whole resignation, you know, which, which is never comfortable, uh, and leaving 30 direct reports, you know, one day, and then the next, you know, on the following Monday, you're sort of trying to figure it out. So yeah, I had a very clear sort of go-to-market strategy around that and very clear around the kind of segments I wanted to, to work within. And, and then it was just a case of executing and building, building the desk.

Okay. And then I know we put it on the notes because this is always a factor, you, you had, you had restricted covenants, right? Because all of your stuff was net new, new clients.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Yeah. So you stayed in the same world, same ecosystem, but obviously it was all like brand new clients. That's what you, you knew how to stick to.

Well, yes. I mean, so at the time, my last firm did— they weren't doing the finance and accounting space. Yeah, so that was more of a pivot to doing something that I didn't have any real restrictive covenants on, that it was fair game. So I sort of identified that to sort of hedge my risk a little bit. Okay, well, they do risk analytics, they do it well, you know, there's an opportunity for me to do it better, of course. But also, you know, I couldn't just rely on one specific market that was, you know, I've got 10,000 clients in the database. So, and I wanted to respect the restrictive covenants too. So yeah, I looked at finance and accounting and then I just, I really went after that. I also spent a lot of time just like just pulling data from LinkedIn via like Talent Insights to just get a better picture of where my target clients are kind of winning and losing clients from and look at where there was higher attrition, you know, particularly in the sort of Texas market. And also who was hiring, you know, and seeing, you know, what were the hiring signals and then going after clients based upon some of the data that I was pulling from, from things like LinkedIn and some other, some other resources. So yeah, very clear from, from day one and just really allowed me to, to execute and just, yeah, get in the weeds.

Okay, appreciate you sharing that because I'll just ask it because I know it again when we're thinking about with your, your 2 years in, so we're unpacking the early days And if someone is really thinking about taking that leap, they're thinking about their covenants, like how many new clients are going to be able to get, all that stuff. It is really top of mind for a lot of people that want to go down that, that journey. So self-funded, had a clear, uh, niche and focus. I know it took you only until June to do your first deal, so we'll get the story on that. Yeah, I just wanted to ask you very quickly, because as I said at the start of this, so many people that will be listening to this show will be— would have heard us talk about the US market. It is easily a standout trend over the last 24 months for the amount of, uh, UK firms that just do the US market, or UK recruiters taking their careers there. I just wanted to ask you very quickly just your experience and perspective on this. You mentioned there the Texas market. Do you think, from your experience, how important is it to have a state focus or not be too broad? When I've spoke to people that have taken their focus and energy to the US market and they're going from zero to one Oftentimes a big mistake when they look back on it can be that they, they tried to focus in too many areas at once. From you being on the ground there, living there for a good amount of time now, and from what you've seen, is it— do you have to have a state focus or can you be fairly pragmatic?

I mean, I think, I suppose it really depends on how you want to structure your agency. I mean, obviously as a sort of smaller boutique organically growing, I'm not adding 20 headcounts, 20 headcount every 12 months, that I need to be very specific with what I'm going after and how I'm going after it. And so from a state standpoint, it's very easy to sort of fall into or follow the allure of the wider US geography and say, okay, well, you know, I'm— these are my markets, but there's 20 jobs in New York I can go after it. Um, but I know that's not going to be helpful, and it doesn't necessarily align to the way that I wanted to go about, say, business development. And, you know, one of the, the biggest aspects to how I was building a market was meetings, you know. And I can't necessarily be flying to, you know, 20 different states. Well, you know, I have to sort of look at what's in front of me, uh, and really sort of build that mindshare and sort of see the whites of my client's eyes. So You know, I would say for me, if you are a founder that is bootstrapping the business, wants to grow organically, steadily, you know, so on, I think the strategy is far better to look at, you know, obviously where's that supply-demand imbalance? You know, are there clients that, you know, from a market standpoint, is it the case that the best people rarely move jobs? You know, are you able to sort of build trusted relationships? With these specialists and with these candidates? And do internal hiring teams lack the capacity or depth to do it well themselves? But the easiest thing is just to focus on what's on your doorstep, you know, to run events and, as I say, be in the traffic and get in front of these clients. And that's been a huge, a huge kind of, yeah, a hugely productive piece to my business development strategy. So very much, very much kind of inch, you know, inch wide, mile deep than mile wide, inch deep.

Yeah, okay, fair. Because yeah, I know that's been really fundamental in, in your journey and winning is the, the locality and you being in, in Texas and focusing in, in Texas. Talk us through, because it— there's always normally a story in there. How did this first deal happen? Because we'll always remember that first placement, that first invoice going out, being paid. What, what was the story there on this first deal happening? Because it didn't take that long. For it to happen?

No, I mean, I think it's— yeah, I mean, the first deal, it was a £30K fee. Um, I made— I remember the date, 17th of June, 2024. So about 2 and a half months from starting Day Dot to getting the first deal done, which, if I'm being honest, I thought I'd be able to pull off a deal in my first 4 weeks, which obviously didn't happen. So yeah, we all back ourselves to get it done quickly, but, um, so, so perhaps it was a bit of a reality check for me that, okay, this is going to be a process, and you know, just go back to the basics. So yeah, no, it was, um, it was interesting. It was actually, uh, uh, the connection was through a sort of family friend, a brother-in-law, um, who had known someone at said firm, and they sort of introduced me, and they had mentioned they were struggling to, to fill this role. So I was like all in on that, like completely all in, you know, just get that first deal monkey off my back. Um, so it was fairly uneventful as far as process and whatnot, you know, and there's no real— yeah, there's no exciting story. It was just, yeah, just go absolutely gung-ho on sourcing and again, as you know, falling into that trap of obsessing over the job you do have versus actually building a wider business. So again, I had to pivot quite quickly there. But yeah, it was such a relief just to get that first deal over the line. And then trying to negotiate some good payment terms to get paid quickly. Um, so yeah, it was, uh, it was, it was good. It was, it was, it was a different kind of buzz from just doing a deal. Uh, it was definitely a massive milestone for me. And, and yeah, I remember it was, it was really exciting. Yeah.

So let's break down this first year a bit more because outcome-wise, like, really amazing what you achieved. One of the— when we really spoke about this, one of the things that you kept coming back to, which is what you just mentioned, was this obsessing over meetings. So let's talk about this. So firstly, what— how would you define a meeting? So would that be anyone that you, uh, met, candidate, client, whatever? Like, how would you define firstly a meeting?

Yeah, so I mean, initially it was, it was honestly just meeting— so it was really just meeting great candidates or clients that are hiring now or run large teams or have authority over hiring, so budgets and/or headcount. The issue, the issue is you can ask a recruiter to go and book a meeting and 9 out of 10 of them will come back within an hour with a meeting scheduled. They then spend 2 hours away from their desk and come back and say the person they met with wants us to help their nephew find a job who's about to graduate and nothing else. So a lot of what I was thinking of is, okay, I'm building a business, but I want to meet as many people as possible. I need to make sure that these are commercially aligned meetings, and I'm not just going for coffees for the sake of coffees. So just being as intentional as possible with who I was meeting with to ensure that that didn't happen. But, but there's also no way I'm going to be able to, to meet with 7 decision makers a week. So as I said, I explicitly went after, well, one, my first connections on LinkedIn that were based in Dallas that I hadn't interacted with previously, um, and then clients or people that kind of fall into the, the run a large team bucket and kind of went from there. I won't mention the client name, but I saw a local firm was hiring for a role in my wheelhouse and I knew I had candidates. So I literally got my car, I rocked up to their reception unannounced and I asked for the hiring manager. Unfortunately, they didn't come down and say hi and I didn't get the job. But the principle still stands that like I just wanted to get in front of as many people as possible by hook or by crook and 6 to 10 meetings per week for the first month or so. And that led to referrals, it led to new client relationships, and actually like relationships as of 2 weeks ago that have come to fruition. So you just can't replace face-to-face interaction and sort of seeing the whites of, of someone's eyes from across the table. It's, it's far easier to, you know, just shoot the breeze and talk about their family and pets and so on beyond just that kind of the business chat, you know, and really sort of getting to know them. Um, so yeah, I think a big metric for me and one that I still value tremendously was, was meetings.

I know, like, I always want to ask people this on how they think about it, which is if I was receiving a message, a call, an email from you in that first month and I was in your, your space— so you've said there that you was intentionally trying to meet people in your ecosystem or the, the types of people that you wanted to meet. You wasn't just trying to meet anyone. Is, is point number one. So if I was in your wheelhouse and I got some sort of engagement from you around meeting, what do you think I would have felt which would be why it was worth my time? Like, what is it that I'd think to go, yeah, like, that, that sounds like a good idea, I'll give Zach my time? Like, how did you position it to be worthwhile to the person that you wanted to meet?

Yeah, I mean, I think there's, there's, it's difficult, right? Because same with any outreach method that you're sending to a potential client, they don't know you till they know you. Um, and so a lot of it was just sort of relying on track record. Um, I spent a lot of time obviously doing research and pulling good commercial data, so I wasn't just reaching out to say, hey, you free to grab a coffee. It was very much, you know, trying to, trying to add value in some way, um, you know, to, to engage a conversation. And okay, well, what's the background of this individual? Where have they been? What have they done? What are they posting on LinkedIn? What, what are they commenting on? You know, and I spent a lot of time just doing research on, on every prospect that I was ultimately reaching out to. So it wasn't just a spray and pray approach, it was more manual, and it took me more time, to be completely honest. But it allowed me to just be far more tailored in my approach, send good information and just engage conversation and try and sort of have a hook there. Or, you know, this is happening in our market in Dallas, you know, do you want to discuss it? Or, you know, here's some interesting data around your competitor. You know, I did a ton of competitor analysis as well and kind of speculatively sent that out. So I think it's more just trying to build this idea of reciprocity and have them to try and reciprocate my efforts and me doing something for nothing to try and add value that perhaps you create this sense of indebtedness between, you know, between you both, even though you haven't met yet. And I think the other thing as well, Hishem, is that when you're sending really good commercial information to clients and again, it could be salary guides, competitor analysis, talent flow data and insights from their current firm, you instantly sort of build this profile of being an SME, of being an industry expert, you know, and somebody knows what they're talking about. So I actually think that led to people just being curious because I don't think they were getting that. And most of the clients I speak to who I brought on through that method, you know, they hadn't really had much, much outreach other than recruiters sending them potential candidates that weren't relevant.

Okay, so you really led— so you broke down the, the parts that would be under that value category. So it was market insights, competitor analysis, salary data. You really tried to lead with that, which was then combined with like, bad idea for us to connect and meet and speak properly, but you, you led with that sort of stuff.

Yeah, yeah. And, and I mentioned reciprocity. I think that's just a big one, you know, and I knew it wasn't necessarily going to just be able to— I knew I wasn't going to be able to just offer clients ready candidates, particularly the first few weeks and such, because I had to build that network first. So I think it's probably important to touch on because it was a big aspect of my strategy around reciprocity, which it's a tall sales technique. The idea comes from a guy called Robert Cialdini. Probably butchered the pronunciation there. But so instead of asking for something upfront, you give value first. And that creates this, as I said, this subtle sense of indebtedness. And that makes the other person just more likely to say yes later. So if I, you know, for example, you know, if I take you for a steak lunch and I spend $300 on you and you say, why? I said, well, no, I just want to take you for steak lunch. You might feel the need in a month or two from now to say, Zach, let's go for a steak. It's my turn. So in short, it's giving something for nothing, and then perhaps my efforts might be reciprocated down the line. And in, in practice, it's, as I say, it's proactively sending things out like market intel reports, salary guides, and just good information without them asking for it. Um, so, you know, for me, it's, it's just one of the core principles of persuasion that just isn't salesy.

And would you this will be stuff that, that people know they should maybe do more of, know that works. I think like this sort of stuff can be overlooked in AI tech world, getting in front of people, figuring out what you can bring to the table that's useful, helpful, valuable. But I just wanted to— you can tell me what you think about this. I feel like where people can go wrong with this strategy is spending all that time with random people. When I say random, just people that you're not intentionally wanting to grow your network with. I feel like that's the part that clearly you, you did well, which was you wasn't just taking anyone out for lunch and you wasn't just trying to show up in anyone's inbox or, or call them to try and give them value. You were intentionally growing, you're trying to speak to these people that at some point might be, uh, helpful to have in your ecosystem and the, the companies that you want to be working with. I feel like that's the— an important factor versus just being busy and meeting loads of people.

Yeah, 100%, um, 100%. And it's, it's, you know, again, if you, if you don't have a very clear like, dare I say, sort of straightforward, simple approach, and you're just trying to do too much at one time, it's just not going to work. Um, you know, and actually one of my sort of secret KPIs, or like less tangible KPIs that I have, and I still have it, is like, can I get the cell numbers of both HR and the business? Like, do I have them as a contact in my phone? Do they trust me enough? Um, you know, do I have a strong enough relationship where I get access to something that, that many others don't? So, you know, I was having 7+ meetings a week at times, and the interaction and knowledge exchange by, by having interesting discussions led to, obviously I said, really great relationships. And I take every placement I make to a 5-star lunch, you know, steak, lobster, whatever. And that's yielded a ridiculous amount of referrals. So, you know, I'm specific with where I spend my money as a business owner, understanding where the ROI is, and again, taking a placement for lunch, that then opens up 5 to 10 more candidates, candidates that, that they work with, or their team. Um, but I also want to offer that— so I hate the term white glove service, but I'm going to use it— but, you know, the white glove service and experience that like a premium boutique recruitment firm my size is able to do. And I know it's not necessarily feasible for larger agencies to send 200 people out to have steak dinners with, with every candidate they place. Um, So yeah, no, I, I 100% agree, mate. I think it's, um, yeah, it's very easy to just get overwhelmed with, with just— you can be doing so much as a founder, so you really have to kind of organize yourself properly.

And safe to say then, because again, you was intentional about market, markets, that supply and demand constrained markets, a lot of people you're meeting would put in the, the candidate bucket like people that you could, uh, work with versus more of the, uh, client side? Or, mate, I don't know, you can, you can tell me. But did that then lead to you then directly working with candidates and putting them in front of people, just being very candidate-led in terms of opening up doors?

Yes, I would say, I would say so. I think you have to be really careful of that because I really hate the strategy of lying to candidates about having jobs and reaching out to a senior person and saying, look, I've got potential, I've got a role for you, you know. I think you need to be really careful about the content of your outreach and the purpose of outreach. But I would say initially that I just, yeah, it was, it was probably primarily just very senior people. Vast majority of people were probably more interested in considering the market themselves versus, you know, that's where I got most of my responses from. And that's, that's natural. It's going to, it's going to happen that way.

Um, when you say, what did you mean? What do you mean by that? Sorry, just considering the market, what do you mean by that?

Uh, so as in, as in, um, senior, senior people who are considering the market, considering making a move themselves, essentially. Yeah. So, um, and that's where sometimes, you know, you, you do outreach, a ton of outreach, and most of the responses are just people wanting to pick your brains on the market and just get good information, um, or just see what's out there for themselves versus you know, them actually hiring. So yeah, I would say probably more, more candidate-led as far as my initial outreach, um, and the meetings that I had.

And then opening up, because we'll get into the— you get— you showed me a really great, which I hadn't heard before, how you thought about your clients. But just so we understand it, really double down on meetings, getting in front of people. You said a lot of people came back who are probably more senior in the market, interested in what's going on. You led with value. And then downstream from that, depending on how those meetings, conversations went, would then result in X percentage of people being willing to be represented or taken to market. It was that that led to a lot of the, the wins in the first, you know, we did a million dollars. That's, that's, you know, a really good amount. So is it that then, just so we understand, like, and then that drove referrals when you start to get some success, all that?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, if, if I had to sort of nutshell it, that, that would sort of be what it, what it looked like. The other thing I suppose that, um, is worth mentioning is like the first week in, you know, first week in the business, um, you know, I, I— so I've taught and personally built recruiting businesses through what's known as the Rolling Five or Rolling Ten. I don't know if you're familiar with that. No. So Essentially, it's just a far more structured way to doing— a more structured way of doing business development. So you take, you know, 5 or 10 target companies, and then you identify sort of 5 to 10 client contacts from said companies, and then you run a tailored outreach sequence over the course of a few weeks to these clients. And you're essentially utilizing various different outreach techniques, so emails, calls, LinkedIn voice notes was great, and then sort of multiple points of follow-up. So, you know, what I was doing is I sort of said earlier in the conversation, I spent a ton of time just pulling data from LinkedIn via Talent Insights to get a better picture of where my target clients are winning and losing talent from. So you sort of start off with a list of who are the clients I want to work with. You pull the data from it and you understand where they're winning talent from, where they're losing talent to. And that also opens up, you know, more target clients of, you know, so it's this ecosystem you start to build. and then subsequently you put together sort of slide decks to send these clients that are tailored to, to them and their hiring data. And so, you know, often, you know, say focus on private equity firms for a week or two, and then I would move on to consumer lenders and so on. Um, and then I can sort of amalgamate some of the data and create more, um, detailed trend analysis and sort of competitor analysis. So that was really great just to sort of have far more far more focus and just direction versus just going after every job I see or every client that I want to work with. It's no, like, pick, pick 10 clients, 10 contacts from each client, and then build this specific tailored outreach sequence and then a follow-up sequence. So yeah, I wanted to sit there and hit the phones and sort of test my mettle, but I had to rein myself like back into some extent and just make sure that I had a repeatable, robust, and effective strategy on how I was going to approach the market in my first week or first few weeks. Um, so yeah, I think that, that's sort of another strategy that's worked really well for me and something that, that, you know, I have— I'll always have my employees do and anyone I hire. I think it just works really well.

Yeah, that's, that's a great breakdown. Should we talk about this BCG matrix then? Because I think that factors in to the success we've had so far as well. Do you want to— I hadn't heard of this before, so do you want to talk to us about what the BCG Matrix is?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, so the BCG Matrix, uh, Matrix is not actually specific to recruitment, so it didn't come from recruitment, um, but it translates really well into recruitment when you think about clients in terms of revenue potential versus the, the kind of effort and resource that they require. So the matrix is made up of kind of 4 components. You have star clients, you have cash cow clients, you have question marks, and you have dogs. It's really unfair to dogs, but they're dog clients. Stars are really your high growth clients who hire a lot. So they have lots of hiring volume and just a great partnership dynamic. Cash cows are more established accounts. So consistent fees, typically lower maintenance. They're reliable and they are typically larger just with some level of attrition. So there's always backfills going on there as well. Question marks are clients with just potential, their potential, high potential clients, but they're not quite there yet. Maybe they're a growing business, they don't have much market share, but the relationship is still being built and they have kind of the highest potential to become stars. And then dogs are just clients that take a disproportionate amount of time. They pay lower fees, they have poor fill rate, and they just kind of drain your energy, to be honest. So once you start mapping your book of business that way, your decisions around like resource allocation become so much more clear. They've been much more clearer. So for me, I use this to one, make sure I'm diversifying my book of business to hedge my risk. Two is to ensure that we're spending our time in the right places. And three, it's just a brilliant way of organizing BD efforts to pull clients and help your team distinguish good from bad, but how to manage their time more effectively. And I'd actually go as far as saying that it's, it's a really good time management tool for BD. But what you're ultimately doing is you're building a book of business that you can be far more intentional about and really break down and, you know, where to spend your time. No one is going to have 80% of their client base to be stars. I mean, that's the goal, But when you look at your clients and you departmentalize them, you know, with the goal of not being overhedged on one type of client in that matrix, you know, you're, you're, you're identifying the dog clients earlier and you're cutting ties or you're figuring out, you know, how to turn that client around. So it's, it's, it's a really effective time management tool and a really good tool of sort of bucketing your clients and where to spend the most amount of time.

And I feel like you're saying the time piece there because I've got here— hey, let me know if this is, uh, wrong, but 85% of the, the billings that you did in year 1 was like contingent. 85% of it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's why I feel like you're talking about time because that, that is the often biggest challenge when it comes to contingent is you are spending or allocating your time, resources, energy to positions that are with dog clients?

100%. And I think the biggest thing, the biggest thing is just mutual respect, you know, like, do— does the client take our recommendation seriously? And, you know, the— this combination of high revenue and high growth potential is exactly what a star is. And, you know, my top client, they will, they will interview candidates based upon my recommendation before even looking at the resume or write-up. I can just set up the interview. Now, that's a star client. They're a client that I can give feedback to. You know, we're really involved in their workforce planning. We know their culture just inside out. You know, we're an extension of their talent team and the business as well. The fees are strong, the process is efficient because both sides are just so invested. So, you know, and that's— I spend a lot of time with them. Versus, you know, I had to, for the first time in a decade, I had to pull terms with a client a couple of months ago because I realized, you know, it was low fees, they weren't engaged, I was never able to speak to the business, they were always nickel and diming. It was just a bit of a nightmare. So I just cut ties and I realized very quickly, why am I going to keep— yes, there's multiple roles, but is it realistic I'm actually going to place one? And even when I do, what's the opportunity cost of not going after the question mark clients and the star clients?

I think that can be really hard for solo founders, is walking away, because again, you don't have that manager over your shoulder saying, making it very obvious and clear that you should, because you know if you did allocate time to it, there's a chance, there's a potential that money could end up in your business bank account and, and you could end up getting there. So I think having a framework like this is really helpful for that, to make it a bit more clearer on why you should walk away or why you should pull terms or why you should say, actually, this no longer is a partnership that's working. This is what I would need more of if we want to carry on working together. But I think you're only willing to do that if— I'm assuming you, you're comfortable to do that because you're consistently building or have a client book that is diversified and that's living and breathing and growing. Sometimes founders can find themselves, if we're being really honest, they're like, shit, all I've got is dog clients, but that's all I've got. And like, do you know what I mean?

No, 100%. And, and this is where like I really encourage recruiters to like first look at the data. So look at, you know, not just clients you're going after, but current clients. It's not This isn't necessarily just looking at clients you don't have terms with yet. You know, it's looking at clients who you've worked with maybe multiple years. So you look at, you know, revenue generated, you look at fill rates, the average fee value, and even down to like time spent per placement if you can. And, you know, numbers tell half the story. You know, I also look at trajectory. Is this client growing? Are they hiring more? You know, are they expanding into new areas? And then I look at the relationship quality. Do they value our expertise? Do they give us fair terms? Do they, do they engage with us properly? And if a client— and this is where it's just simple math— if it's 2 plus 2, if a client scores low across all of those, you know, low fees, poor process, maybe even like high dropout rates as well, that's another thing. And no real sign of growth. That's a tough conversation internally about whether we should be re-pitching the relationship or deprioritizing it. You only have so many consult— so many hours rather, in a consultant's, you know, week. And protecting their time, I think, is one of the most important, like, strategic decisions that a leader can make, or that I can make for my people. So yeah, I think it's just, um, I think it's a really good way of looking at it, and it's something that I've utilized for a long time now. Yeah.

What do you think, from what you've seen, what do you think would be— if I was in your team and I showed you my spread of clients across this framework, what and I'm mainly contingent. 80% of my success and placements are contingent, so it is very much where I allocate my time, resource, focus. What for you have you seen is like a great healthy split on that BCG matrix? What do you like to work towards is like a good place to be?

I mean, so I mean, maybe you can break it down to like, say, 5 clients or 6— 5, 6 clients. So for me, for me, having as many— I mean, look, the low-hanging fruit here is to say as many star clients as possible, but again, you've got to be realistic. So I would say you want to have, you know, almost like a one or two star clients. You want to have at least one cash cow. I mean, the more the merrier with the cash cows because they're just reliable and consistent. And, you know, one of the things sometimes with star clients is there might be lots of hiring, but it also it might not be consistent. Um, and then sort of question mark clients, you know, again, they're the clients you're probably going to have most of because they're relationships you're building, and it typically comes from newer business development. So I don't think there's a perfect split, if I'm being honest with you. I think it's more to do with, do you have at least a couple of stars, a couple of question marks, a couple of cash cows, and do you not have dogs? And if you do have dogs, or perhaps one of your clients is a bit of a question mark, but you're, you're quite quickly starting to realize that, you know, they're not— yes, they have high potential, but their whole recruitment process is a mess. And yes, they are doing well and, you know, there's growth and whatnot, but they don't know how to hire. You know, you have to also ask the question, are they worth my time? Or at the very least, can I offer them some sort of, you know, embedded talent solution to help them get there and some sort of recruitment process engineering offering, you know. So, um, yeah, I think ideally as many star clients as you could possibly get, um, and absolutely as many cash cows as you can get. They're sort of the two, the biggest ones for me.

Because you did this— let me know if I get this wrong— you did this million across like 5 clients?

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, 5 clients.

Do you think from what— if I join your business tomorrow, is that what you'd be telling me from what you've seen? Hishem, if you bring on 5 great clients, you could build a million dollars.

Absolutely, 100%. I don't see why not. And this is where I think, you know, lots of clients are just underutilized, and recruiters probably, you know, we sometimes don't do enough to mushroom clients. You know, there's some businesses that do exceptionally well at it, and they have these amazing client services teams, and, you know, that's a real focus for them. The biggest focus for me that allowed me to get you know, to do a million from, from 5 clients. And really it was 4 because one of them I did like maybe, uh, 2 deals with, um, maybe just under $100K. But it was exclusivity is how I built— I mean, yes, it's contingent and the pinnacle is retained, but there's a really nice middle ground with sort of contained or exclusive. Um, and, and I really doubled down on, you know, how am I going to turn this traditional contingent business where I'm potentially up against, you know, uh, Tom, Dick, and Harry LLC down the road, to just purely working with me and only me. And that was a real focus as well.

Let's just talk about that for a sec, because one of the things when we spoke about that— because I know we're talking about the first year here, but it was, it was more of the same in the second year, wasn't it? This sort of stuff going on, it was just maximizing what, what we had. So I've got here upfront contract. That, that's come up quite a bit, if I'm honest. With people that I've interviewed. Talk to us a bit about that, because from my understanding, it's very much being intentional about, again, saying, hey, Mr. and Mrs. Klein, yes, happy to start here, but this is where I want us to get to. And making that clear throughout, and asking or making clear on, if I do this or I deliver this, then this is what I'd, I'd really, uh, be great for us to work towards, or what I'd want you tell me, like, that upfront contract piece, because I know that's what we put down around the exclusivity piece and, uh, growing those accounts.

Yeah, so I mean, so the clients I work with, they all started contingent typically. I mean, there's a couple of retained searches, but really they all started like traditional contingent recruitment. And one of the questions that comes up a lot to me is, you know, being a no-name brand effectively you know, how do you, how do you get the buy-in? How do you position yourself versus a much larger established business that does retained? And I'd say that it's actually, it's arguably easier to pitch exclusivity being a smaller brand versus a well-known brand. And the thing is, with larger brands in any industry, bigger isn't always better because bigger brands are far more susceptible to scrutiny because it's much harder to maintain quality control and sort of higher standards at all times. So, you know, when I was looking and thinking about exclusivity, you know, I was also thinking about my competitors. And my competitors aren't bigger recruitment firms out there because I'm offering a very different service than what a traditional big brand name would offer. So by design, we do have fewer clients, which means we have more attention per search and also higher standards on who we represent and the quality of the client and the candidate, actually. So Really, it was, okay, how do I lead with a founder-led delivery approach in that clients, they're able to work, you know, directly with the business owner, myself, and they're not sort of handed off to a grad or more junior recruiter, you know, after signing a contract. It's a signal of accountability and quality that, uh, that I'm able to engage with every client we partner with in some capacity on a fairly regular basis. So I actually think, I really believe this just creates more of a premium boutique experience, which means that after making a couple of placements with X or Y client, the route to exclusive revenue becomes far easier because the client and the candidate experience is just awesome, including a steak lunch.

So you love your steak lunches.

I love a steak. Texas steak is outrageous. I can't eat a steak in London anymore. Probably offended a few people there. But I'd also add, I think finally on the point, recruiters just need to ask the question about exclusivity. Like, just put your best foot forward, you know, tell the client with conviction why they should work with you and why they should work with you exclusively. And the analogy I like to use is kind of like sports analogy. Like, it's not the name on the badge that matters, it's the name on the back of the shirt. That's what matters. And recruiters move all the time and we see it where clients follow and you have your black book. So you just gotta back yourself because they're buying from you, they're not buying from the brand. And I just don't think about it as though they're buying from Keenan's Talent or XYZ 2,000-person agency. They're buying from, from Zach Creighton.

Why I think recruiters sometimes struggle to ask the question is they, especially if they've had success on contingent, we've all got the end outcome that we wanted, they need to understand what's in it for the client. Most recruiters will be able to tell you what's in it for me. Well, they, they only work with me, they don't have other recruiters, all of that. Like, it's easy to talk about what's in it for me, but what, what's in it for the client?

Yeah, I mean, so yeah, it's a good question. Um, I mean, I, I stopped trying to compete with bigger names and, and, you know, on their terms, and I started sort of reframing the conversation with clients just entirely because The question, like, typically the question just to that is like, why work with a startup? You know, we're like, how are you, how are you any better? You know, are you going to have the same access? You're not going to have the same CRM with 30,000 or 300,000 candidates. Um, and everyone assumes that bigger is better, as I say, and for a lot of clients it just isn't. So, you know, for me it's just really kind of outlining our process, you know, and I have a 4, 4 kind of pronged approach to that. Um, which is, you know, it's fairly high level and, you know, it's on my website and it's, it's something that I kind of run through with clients. But, you know, at a bigger agency you might be onboarded by a senior person. As I say, you're handed off to a more junior recruiter who's working 30 other roles. With me, you get me. You know, the person who you took the brief with is working it, thinking about it, calling you back, and that level of attention I mean, I'm sure people would maybe disagree with me here, but I just don't think it really exists at scale. I think, as I say, that quality control piece is far, far more difficult. And I've seen that being at sort of bigger agencies. So early on, I leaned into that hard of being small wasn't a weakness to apologize for. It literally was the product. You're not a number on a spreadsheet, Mr. and Mrs. Client. You're getting someone who's genuinely interested in your hire, because my reputation depends on every single placement I make, and a big agency can afford a bad one. I just can't. And that's actually why you should work with me.

And what other— love that. I think sometimes founders, first-time founders, can overthink that and almost view it as a disadvantage. But I love how you're talking about that. I can feel the conviction in it that you've done that many a time, and I can see why people would really buy into that. And I think when— yeah, you should absolutely lean into that, that founder-led approach for sure. What about levers that you have been flexible with to incentivize a client as well? So I get all of that, it can really vary, but are we— because normally it's if you work with me exclusive, then the rate might be slightly less, or do you know what I mean? What are some of the, the levers there that you that you look at, or do you not?

No, I don't. I don't. I'm not going to really sell myself. No, because if I go in and I say, oh, well, we're gonna, you know, our typical terms are 30%, but with you, we're going to work at 22% on— you just, you're losing. You just lose from day one because other agencies are not going to be doing that. So, and it just comes down to, you know, you get what you pay for. You know, I, I don't think it's like a, you know, there's no— yeah, I don't think it's a long conversation about that.

What about yourself? What about like multi— like what about a lever on exclusive? And if you hire X number of people, then we're not going to charge you like typically like per placement type thing. Like you can be flexible with those commercials or no?

Yeah, I can be flexible. And if it's like a bigger hiring project, you know, absolutely. You know, you can, you can start off, you know, there's a few different ways to structure it. Like, you know, you can start off with slightly lower percentage fees for the first 3 hires and then it sort of goes up as you prove yourself, or you start high and come low. So there's a few different ways and you just got to see what works with the client. Um, even down to like payment terms, you know, one thing I do, um, I do offer, which, you know, I try not to, to change the terms and what I actually get paid. Um, but I offer a free replacement candidate, which I think is fairly common in the industry. Um, but I also, um, I also extend the guarantee, the rebate period, uh, just because it adds just this far more confidence and reassurance from their side that, okay, they're serious, they back themselves to run a really, you know, a really sort of stringent and thorough post-placement care process. And that, you know, if I tell a client, well, I'm, you know, so my top client, for example, for VP, principal, MD-level hires, it's actually a 12-month rebate, a 12-month guarantee. For analysts and associate, it's 6 months. Now, that's incredibly rare. That doesn't happen very often. But that was an agreement we came to that's allowed me to have full exclusivity over two of their departments, and they just will not work with other agency. So absolutely, there are some things that you have to just, you know, you have to be flexible on. But I also know that my risk was hedged pretty, pretty well in that they pay exceptionally well. Their attrition data is they just don't lose people. They, they pay some of the best in the market. Their perks are outrageous. So I think you have to be very careful about you know, I wouldn't just offer 12-month rebates, you know, guarantee periods, um, for a client that already has high attrition. You know, you're probably gonna have to be doubling your work and, you know, finding another candidate in 3 months or paying back a fee, you know. So yeah, I think for me that, that's the main point of flexibility is actually rebate.

Um, that's what I was looking for, like the different levers, because I'm not surprised to hear that you you, uh, change those or were open-minded or creative on those. So actually, yeah, the main lever isn't leading with we can work contingent and be 30%, if we work exclusively 25%. That isn't what you're leading with here. That's the insight for people.

Charge them more. Charge them more for exclusive. Yeah, yeah.

Okay, that, that— and then final point on this, just because clearly it's been so fundamental, because I know the following year looks fairly similar, right, in terms of like client spread revenue that we said. Um, but then by this point we've got referrals, you've grown even more of a network, we've got all of that compounding, right? Which is amazing. But how did you, how did you police the exclusivity? Was that much work or not really? Like, because I'm assuming these companies still got approached by recruiters and stuff. Was there also part of an agreement on that or not really?

No, I mean, yes, for some, for one client, um, it was, it was a 12-month exclusivity agreement. Um, you know, throw in a couple of NDAs here and there, but I mean, ultimately you can't police it because even if, even if you sign a contract, there's always a clause in that contract to disperse the contract and eliminate the contract. So if they're not happy with your delivery, well then either way, whether you have a contract in place or just word of mouth and a gentleman's agreement, if you will. Uh, yeah, there's no guarantees that that client's going to stay exclusive. The only way that you can police it is just deliver, just be relentless, high quality, work with precision and work fast, um, and just never give them a reason to need to have that conversation. So I don't think you can police it. It's just do your job really well, do it better than other agencies, and don't give them a reason to look for another agency.

Was it— was the, the second year more easy than the first year then? Because the compounding got more recent track record with under being your own LLC. Did you find the first year harder or the second year harder?

I mean, the first year was harder just by definition of, of it being building. Um, I'd actually say it was maybe more fun though, even though it was like harder. It was more fun because every win is a new win, and so you celebrate it differently, you know, which, yeah, I had a lot of fun. I really did, you know, in not being in an office 5 days a week and, you know, rocking up to an office at 6:00, 6:30, 7:00 AM in the morning, not having to do that was actually quite nice. So I would say that it was easier as far as my enjoyment. I think I enjoyed it more. Because all the new wins, as I said, and all the new experiences and the excitement of what's to come and so on. And then the second year is, I mean, it's still been, you know, I had such a good year. 2025 was just such a good year, you know, one of the best years in my career, financially speaking, you know, and it really allowed me to create the platform to bring people in and now scale. So yeah, I wouldn't say, I would say the first year was harder by definition in terms of the work, but more enjoyable. Second year was arguably less enjoyable, um, but not as hard.

And we spoke about this, and it does come up a lot when it is you. The hard part is got no one to celebrate with, bar dogs, partner. Found that— we spoke about that, didn't we? Like, that, that was hard, like one of the hard parts.

Yeah, I think it is tough. I think it's this sort of isolation piece, isn't it? I mean, I'm quite a stoic person in some regards, and I don't dwell on— I haven't dwelled on the isolation. I think initially the first 6 months, as I said, I quite enjoy just changing my routine and not being in the office and so on and just getting more time back personally. That isolation, ironically, was quite enjoyable just to go ahead and sort of catch my breath after a decade of building, scaling, and reporting into somebody. For me, then, structure just became everything. Like, just had to build a proper routine. I treated my days like I was running something serious because I was, and that kept me focused and just didn't let my mind wander too much. You know, it stops the days blurring and stops your head from going to bad places when things are quiet. And I think back now, it's a really interesting question because I do think about it a lot. And the isolation made me want to build faster because the answer to loneliness when you're building a business is just to go and build a team around you. And every time I felt that isolation, it just reminded me why I was hiring, why I was pushing Joseph, who I hired recently. It changes the energy. And, you know, are back in the office a couple of days a week. So I think the advice I'd give to anyone who's considering starting their own gig, particularly in a, in a solo capacity, because there's lots of co-founders out there, is build a routine and make sure you have good structure to your days. Find a community as well where, you know, whether that be sports or like professional, you know, I work through RecruitHub and that's given me access to founders who are doing the exact same thing. Although I do think founders can be quite guarded and not want to show weakness. So it's not really something I've actually discussed with lots of other founders, ironically. And leaning on friends and family, I mean, they're ultimately the people that care most about you and they'll always be there no matter what time of day or night. You know what an incredible resource that's been for me. So, you know, I think the lows can be quite low, but the highs, the highs are high. I think it's just tough when, you know, it can feel quite daunting um, at times. And, you know, you just need to remind yourself why you're doing it and why you're trying to achieve— or what you're trying to achieve, rather, you know, from it. And then just, just push on. Um, so yeah.

What about also have grown your family? That's also hard when you're solo.

Yeah, yeah, to say the least.

Yeah, I got here, like, I remember we were—

you too.

I'm pretty sure you emailed me being like, yep, good for prep, 'New baby's here, I'll see you like tomorrow,' something.

I was like, 'Fuckin' hell.' Yeah, I mean, that's been a challenge. Uh, it's one of those things that, yeah, it's, it's been a challenge, but what a transformational thing. And as I'm sure you realize as well with your new arrival, it gives you just additional purpose, um, outside of just you and your missus. So, you know, that, that's been, um, that's been awesome just to, yeah, like I'm doing it, you know, every time I set my desk, I'm doing it for more. There's more purpose now, you know. So yeah, that's been tough for sure. The last—

well, but I didn't have— you didn't give yourself paternity leave. You was doing prep with me, mate. So what— that's hard, especially if you haven't got to run a book. It's not recurring revenue, it's, it's perm. Like, that, that is, is hard. And it's you, obviously. We hired someone recently, but yeah, I mean, yeah, that, that is—

that, that was tough. And just timing being what it was, Joseph, who I hired, his wife also gave birth around the same time as mine. And so he was on paternity leave and I was picking up his work as well as my own. So I didn't love that. But again, it's just a sacrifice. There are sacrifices you have to make. And if I wasn't online, no one would be online. And I can't just leave that to I can't just leave my inbox. So, you know, it was, it was working early hours in the morning. Uh, I was awake anyway, so, you know, uh, when the baby was getting fed, I just hopped on the laptop, sent some emails, did some sourcing, sent some emails out, whatever it was. Um, and, uh, yeah, I just, just found a way, to be honest with you. Yeah, you just, you find a way.

There's no alternative. Yeah. What have you found? I know we've spoken a lot about the things that have worked and Talking a bit about there, about the challenges, but one of the things that you did share with me was you intentionally want to grow this. You haven't been in a rush, in a really healthy financial position. You built a platform. So this is now a, uh, you've been intentional about it, right? We, we wasn't in a rush to grow headcount and add that into the mix. Like, we built a really great platform here. But I know what you have found hard, and I know there'll be a lot of other founders that feel the same, has been hiring for your own business. So talk to us a bit about that. What have you found so hard about it?

Yeah, I mean, that's probably been the biggest thing. So I, I think the, I think the gap was bigger than I had expected initially, where you're sort of Zach LLC, your reputation is the business, you win clients because of me, you deliver because of— or I deliver because of me, and everything flows through me. and for, for a while that, that worked, you know, and I built this platform, um, and it's actually what makes you successful early on, but it also becomes your ceiling. Uh, so I think the shift to a scalable business just means the business has to work without me being the answer to every question. It means that the systems, the processes, and obviously most importantly, the people are in place. Um, and that's, that's where I'm at right now is You know, yeah, it's where I'm at right now, where we're building the team out. And I'll be upfront, as I said, and just say that I've struggled with it. I've struggled with, you know, I'm not running a grad model. It's an experienced hire model. So not— and I suppose there's a couple of ways to break it down. It's not just finding good recruiters, but finding people who sort of buy into how I do things, who can carry the culture that we're building and who clients will trust the same way they trust me. And in many ways, anyone joining the business this early on or other founders, they're pretty much a co-founder. We're all doing the exact same thing day in and day out, you know, so clients hire me. So sort of transitioning those relationships to a team member without losing the account is a risk and it's something that gives me anxiety as well. So, you know, I think there's two things that pull in opposite directions. Sorry, I also say just, just a side note that Dallas isn't a traditionally, you know, it's not a traditionally highly saturated recruitment market for recruiters. It's definitely growing in financial services and the rise of the boutique agency, but there just isn't the same access to high-quality recruiters even through Rec2Rec. And, you know, yes, I offer remote, but to build the foundation, the culture, we're trying to get recruiters just boots on the ground to begin with. So biggest things for me, attitude and culture fit. You know, when you build something from scratch, you just have to— there's a very specific way of doing things and the standard that we hold ourselves to and how we treat clients and, you know, how you handle a deal going sideways. That's really hard to articulate in an interview and even harder to screen for. You can't just ask someone like, are you a good fit? And actually get a useful answer. So I've had I've definitely had to get much better at understanding what our culture actually is before I can hire for it, like writing it down, being explicit about it. And that was a learning. And then the second thing was just, you know, well, the right experience. And I know that sounds vague, but you think that hiring someone who is already a good biller would be the easier path. You know, they know the job, they hit the ground running. But what I've, what I found is that experienced recruiters just come with habits and not all of those habits fit kind of how we operate. So sometimes you're not hiring a person, you're actually hiring like someone else's culture and then you've got a different problem and sort of unteaching bad habits, which I'm totally fine doing. But, you know, they just need to fit the right culture, have the right attitude and be malleable. So there's no perfect hire. It's very much this trade-off right now between okay, raw potential that needs developing versus experience that needs redirecting. And I've been there myself as a senior hire. So yeah, I think I've stopped— I've definitely, like, as of the last couple of months, speaking to a few people, I've stopped obsessing over the numbers on their resume, like how much they build. I think it's important, but I need to— I needed to look at the bigger picture because there's businesses that are set up in a way that I do feel restricts high potential recruiters. Like, for example, through like a more like strict 180 model. So I've just become, yeah, as I say, far more open-minded to finding the right culture fit, having a discussion with recruiters, and just understanding their perspective, their drivers and long-term goals, and then trying to decipher if I can help them get to where they want to be versus just, okay, you've only done 150K. That person could go on and do half a million the following year with the right resources and support.

You've clearly thought about this a lot and reflected on it.

Yeah, a lot. Went on a bit there, but yeah, I have thought about it a lot because it's just—

no, that, that is really great to hear you, but it was really great to hear you think through that. And I think that's a really good, that's a really good sign, I would say, outside looking in, that you're, you're increasing the chances of getting that founding team in, in the right shape. Because what can— what you can fall into the trap of at this stage is you you've got money in the bank, you can hire someone, you could support someone if you needed to. So maybe those people that you think are just above— just below, sorry, like really what you want, you're like, let's give them a shot. You could end up doing that a few times, then before you know it, 6 to 12 months down the line, it's like, shit, actually I should have just held firm for what I believe my standards are and what I want. So that's great to hear you think about that, because I think that is a common mistake, particularly someone in your shoes, can make around this founding team. So really good to hear you think through that. And people listening, you've got to figure that out, and it's better to figure that out now versus try and figure out when things break and you've got 2 more, 3 more failed hires that have come through the business. So I think it was really cool to hear you, uh, talk through that and get and figure out what are the trade-offs that you're willing to make versus not And then once you have that, you can way more easily say no to someone that might say to you, I've built $500 grand financial services market, I'm based in Dallas. But then you're really clear on, no, Hishem is not the right culture person, and that's actually my non-negotiable. So you've got to think about these things. Yeah, very cool to hear you break that down.

Yeah, I think just one last bit to it that I would sort of add that, you know, I've shown proof of concept over a long time in my career, but it's— I do— it's different proof of concept in a startup starting from nothing. And so before I thought about scaling, I sort of needed to know, can someone else come in and do this, or is it just me? And so when you know they can, and obviously I've seen it more recently with my first hire, then it's just about replicating it and being intentional about when the model is ready to absorb another person. And that there's food on the table to sustain early performance for them, teeing them up with deals and so on. And it tells me something. It also tells me something about what to hire for next and the type of person that is going to be successful in this role and in this business. Joseph's just a really good example because he's got 3 kids and one of them is a newborn baby and the other, I want to say 5 and 3 or 4 and 2, something like that. He'll kill me for not knowing. And he's performing to a higher level than a lot of his peers in the industry with so much more additional responsibility and time commitment. So that's even a further rubber stamp for me, at least I like to think this way, that the type of model we're executing on really does work even in an environment or even for a person that wants more flexibility in their career. And I'm really proud of that, to be honest with you.

Yeah, you should be. That's awesome. What we, what are we really doubling down on now then? Is it can we replicate what we've done so far and seen with Joseph? Is that the big— it's more of, I'm assuming, more of the same, do better, uh, can we move more of our clients into that star category? Are we feeling really good and diversified of that? Get more, uh, and support Joseph and the, the new hire, really ramp them up? Like, what are you really— what, what are your intentions for this third year?

Yeah, so I mean, the big one obviously is hiring. You know, I'm looking at 2026 as a year of growth where, you know, we've got multiple headcount right now. I think there's a few things that need to line up, like, in order to get there. I mean, yes, all the things you just mentioned, they're super important, um, but I think it's a combination of a few things. I think, yeah, obviously having a sort of bootstrapped organic model Joseph needs to be consistently bidding because if I, as I say, can't prove the model works with one person, adding two more is just compounding the problem. So I think he's kind of the template in some respects. And then once he's performing, I know what good looks like. I know how to onboard. I know what support someone needs to be successful here and so on. Second, it has to make financial sense. Like, I'm not hiring on hope. You know, I want the revenue to support it before I commit. And I think that discipline is what keeps the business healthy and avoids, you know, as we've seen so many times in the industry, just layoffs and overhiring, which I think is unfortunately far too common in recruitment. And third is just demand. If, if Joseph and I are turning away work or losing deals because we don't have the capacity, that's when you have to, to move. That's the sort of the best possible problem in some respects and a bit of a signal. And I think with all three of these, and we are hitting these right now, you know, we are at the point where there's too much for both of us. You know, Joseph's done multiple deals, multiple offers. It makes a lot of financial sense. You know, there's, there's money in the bank. There's a ton of runway to bring in high-performing, successful, and hungry recruiters. But these are the kind of the three signals or the things that need to be true at the same time. That's when we go to market and that's where we are right now. So, you know, it's, um, it's keep building the revenue, revenue engine first and, you know, sort of get the infrastructure right and, and we, we go from there.

Zach, love it. I think it's been, uh, absolute— like, should be super proud of what we've built so far. Like, coming from reputable brands, being employed for a long time, I'm sure there would have been some, some potential doubts that creeped in, but I think getting to know you never would have been in doubt. Clearly very calculated, very intentional, and clearly have done like worked really hard to deliver a great service, show up, do the work, and it's paying off. And it's really cool to hear this story on what you can achieve, also growing your family in the, in the same time. And, uh, like really, I think what we've learned here with some of the strategies that you shared having that focus, intention, doing a good job, like what you can achieve with that is, is, is a lot. And hopefully that can inspire other people, uh, on having that focus and that intention on what you can achieve. So really appreciate you joining me on the pod.

Absolutely, mate. Yeah, I had a blast. It was, it was class. I appreciate it. And again, what, what an incredible platform. We were talking before, obviously I don't know how you find the time to to do this, but it's an incredible resource for people. And, um, yeah, I'm just, I'm grateful to, to be on, mate. So thanks for having me and inviting me on.