Avoid These Common Eco-Friendly Branding Mistakes

Hello and welcome to this episode of Conscious Design. I'm your host, Ian Peterman, and author of the Conscious Design book. And today I'm excited to have Willow Hill. She's a co-founder and chief creative officer at Scout Lab, and they help brands that advance humanity. Welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me, Ian. Excited to be here.

Everybody loves a good origin story, so let's start with yours. What got you into this kind of field and then decide to co-found a whole agency?

Yeah, so I started my agency with Caitlin Barclay in 2017. We had both previously kind of worked in Silicon Valley. We were building and scaling tech companies and really had this kind of perspective that there was so much opportunity for a creative partner that could actually, one, understand what it means to kind of be on the builder side of actually knowing how to go in and help these companies hit a scale that they hadn't, hadn't hit before. So there was part of us that just wanted, you know, to have the kind of partner that we never had. And then the other piece was we just saw that culturally there was a big gap between what people wanted and what brands were actually showing up for. So in our mind, there's, you know, a shift that's happening where as consumers we're asking for things to be more sustainable, we want things to be more equitable, and Ultimately, the data shows that, which is a really exciting thing, right? If you look at Gen Z, if you look at millennials, they're more inclined to be loyal and to spend more on brands that actually adhere to their values. So when we took a step back, we just thought, this isn't happening. There's so many brands that have the potential to be aligning their missions with where we want to see the world evolve to, but they just don't have the right support to get there. And so we launched Scout Lab in 2017 with that kind of intention of creating brands and being really true stewards and partners to brands that have the intention of advancing humanity forward. So that was really our kind of origin.

Yeah, I think there's so many times, and yours is, is this way, you have, you wanted to be the partner you didn't have, right? It's that you realize there's this gap And you realize a whole bunch of people have that same missing piece. So it's good you took initiative to go actually fill that gap and actually do something about it instead of complaining that there's no good partners out there. Let's talk a little bit about this shift that you guys have seen. Obviously, you've been since 2017, been around a little while. You've seen as the general consumer base, right, has shifted. I'm totally there with you. I see it definitely. a lot more sustainability, a whole list, right? It's all these things that we care about is increasing. How do you see that as like we've crossed a tipping point? Like, where do you think we're at? And obviously we're not 100% because really cheap, terrible stuff is still being sold. That's not good for anyone. Kind of where do you see that trend? Where, for where your perspective?

So there's maybe 2 pieces to this. The first is not just looking at kind of what we're creating, but looking at the number of problems that there are, especially when we think about them from kind of an environmental or social perspective. And right now, those are kind of increasing at a rate that our solutions are not catching up to, right? So when we start to think about how can we help companies really think about this kind of longer-term perspective, that's a big question. And ultimately, we have to help companies intuit ways. One, understand that there is a true business opportunity in becoming more regenerative than just extractive, and that that can be done in so many different ways, right? It might not have anything to do with the type of products they're producing, right? It might— they might be a service-based company. There's so many different types of ways to approach things like creating a more sustainable economy or a more regenerative economy, which is, I think, something that we're really excited about. And we believe that that's really rooted in 2 things. One is human health, and the other is planetary health. So between those 2 things, there's so many categories that kind of fit into that. Each of those elements can be impacting, whether that's abortion rights or access to clean water or just general access to healthcare. These are things that for-profit companies are thinking about because ultimately when we think about what does it mean to create more abundance for everyone, there's a way to do that while we're able to actually support people while we do it. And I think a lot of companies or a lot of people look at this space and they immediately think, oh, it's a nonprofit space. When in reality, if we want to get to a more sustainable world, we have to stop thinking from the just purely nonprofit perspective and start to think about how do we realign incentives at the core, which I think is the really exciting conversation.

Yeah, that brings up kind of the value, value chain. I was just interviewing something and we were talking about like recycling materials and how usually you think like, oh, I'm going to, you know, Take some paper, I want to go recycle it, or, you know, I can crush this glass up, melt it into something else. But we tend to think very much on just how, like, the value of that is. Oh, if you can extract aluminum, well, it's the price of aluminum per weight, or, you know, things like that. And they did a project where they picked recycled materials based on the cosmetic value into a material. And that kind of idea, like what you're talking about a little bit, there's these different values that we don't always— there's, you know, how is it good and healthy for the planet? Is it good and healthy for people? Is it, you know, there's obviously the value of the raw material just by itself. And then there's this cosmetic. So I think there's— we're starting to realize that there's a lot more value chains and value types than just aluminum is $10 a pound or whatever it is, right? And that, and then we just stop there. There's so much more value to the conversation, which means more for everyone what we're doing.

Yeah. And I think that conversation starts to veer more into the world of natural capital as well, which, you know, one of those books I love to geek out on, thinking about how right now we value the end product, but we don't actually think about what are all of the things that go into making whatever it is that we're creating, right? So there's no dollar value, put on the clean air, on the rainforest that we're destroying. And ultimately that does have a cost and it's going to have a cost tomorrow, but it's also going to have a cost to the next generations. So someone's paying for it, but it's just not you paying for it right now. And I think ultimately that's going to be the bigger conversation that we're going to be having over the next few decades that I'm excited about having now.

Yeah, I, the best description I think I've heard of that is that there's basically, it's like we have a ledger And we have one side we're ignoring and we're pretending it does, but we're putting minuses all over there. And that's, you know, our health, planet health, rainforests. Those are all getting— and we're just like, oh, but it doesn't exist. Ignore. Just look at all the positives over here and ignore all of that. And that's like kind of the mentality to get here, which is what we've had.

Yeah. Like this unlimited credit card.

Yes. Yeah. That bill is going to come due.

Yeah. That we have no spending limit right now and that bill is going to come due and that bill is going to be passed to our grandchildren and our great-grandchildren, which is not a way that I think in Western society we normally think. We don't think intergenerationally.

Yeah.

I'm Native American, and one of the principles and philosophies that I like to root my work in is this idea of building for the 7th generation. So what does it mean when we stop thinking about just ourselves or our children or our grandchildren and we actually start to think, what does it mean when to build something or to build a brand for 7 generations from now? Because if we actually start to think that far out, One, we'll build more long-term sustainable companies and we'll create something I think that we're more proud of as a society that will help rebuild what we're here to actually create.

Yeah, there's a term that I use with clients and I call it legacy branding. It's really thinking like that. So, well, what do you— not only what are you thinking down the line, generations, multiple generations down the line, But also, what do you want to be remembered for? Because you're at some point when that bill is due, they're going to look back and I go, we know who did it. And you're not going to be remembered for good things if you were part of the problem. That's your just thinking about like what your legacy is. And then what, like, how do you want to be remembered? What do you want to be remembered for? And setting it up so that your great-great-great-grandchildren aren't like, Eh, they were crazy. They were, they did some dumb things. We're going to have to fix it now. Like, that's not, that's not what I'm looking for in my great-grandkids at some point. Not my plan.

Yeah. We're tied to quarters right now, right? So even thinking one generation ahead feels really big and really scary to companies. But ultimately, when you look at the companies that are built the best, they're actually built to withstand major cultural shifts and major climate shifts. So what we're talking about building for the 7th generation isn't just for the good of that generation. It's also for the good of the business. I mean, when, when we can actually get founders and executive teams to understand that those 2 things can align, I think what we'll see is much more resilient businesses built. COVID taught us anything, that idea of building resilience into your business model now is one of the most important things that you can do.

Yeah, and it's kind of funny because people, like, take the stock market, right? People will go, oh, well, you know, keep your money in, it'll be fine over the long term. Over 10 years, it averages out to like 8% or whatever, right? It just, it'll average out. Just think long term. But all those same companies and same Wall Street people are going, but look at 3 months, we've decided you're a failure because you decreased profits by 0.5%. You're Talks down now. We don't like it. We have it somewhere in like Native American, 7th generation. Every culture has that if you go back far enough before we stripped away it. That was held by pretty much everyone. You had to think about that. Otherwise, there would be no you anymore. There would be nothing left.

I agree with that. I think if we look back far enough, we'll find that there has generationally been these different philosophies or methodologies Within many different cultures that speak to this long-term perspective that we've kind of lost along the way. And I think, you know, there's so much to be said for innovation. There's so much opportunity in the future. But I also think that there's wisdom from the past that we can utilize in order to get us further faster.

Yeah, I think it's— there was Norway that had this happen. It sounds very— I don't know anything directly, but the story is great. I think it paraphrased or shows this really well, is there was like an order for some sailing ships, right? So an order To make sailing ships in the 1800s, you needed really tall, really old, really good trees. So they ordered some because in 150 years we're going to have to build some more ships. So they had to plant and tend a forest. And then it was like in the mid-1900s, they got— their forestry department was like, hey, you remember that order you placed 150 years ago? We got some trees for you. We don't use those for making warships anymore, right? Or even most ships, right? But just that they had to think that long just to get, oh, he wants a boat.

Cool.

Wait over a century and then you can begin building the boats. The raw material's ready at that point.

Wow.

And I can't even imagine a company now if they are faced with that, like, hey, you gotta wait 100 years before the raw material's available for you to do anything. You just gotta sit there. Like, I don't, I don't think we could comprehend having to wait that long.

Yeah, no, we can't. We, we don't have the patience, right? We just want everything on demand.

Yeah, instantly. I want it yesterday, ideally. So all this is really cool, right? How do you take all this and apply it to brand? How do you take, you know, all of these things, all these concepts, What's part of your magic? How do you make this into something that consumers recognize? Brand exists, right? There's a lot that goes into a brand. It's not just a logo. You and I know that. For everyone who doesn't, now you know it's more than a logo. How do you put together all that so that it's— you can convey that and really build? Because I feel like culture is a huge part of that, right? If the inside doesn't match the outside, problems happen? What is your thinking about how to put all that together?

Yeah, I love that you brought up culture because it's definitely a big piece of brand. So when we're referring to culture, we're actually referring to company culture, right? In this moment, right? There's the larger culture and there's company cultures. There's so many different pieces. But when I think about phase 1, which is actually the building of the brand, and if it's a brand that's preexisting, maybe it's rethinking the strategy of how you're going to move forward. All of these things tie back into this larger question of who are we, why do we exist, and ultimately, who do we serve?

Yeah.

And so many brands start to forget about that last question, who do we serve? And so a lot of times our work really starts at that point of focusing in on this, not just the larger impact, but what is the daily impact? How do you wanna make someone feel, right? So building out a strategy that is one part creative, one part strategy that is truly combined and can live in more harmony is really important. A lot of times what I will see, and what I saw quite a bit prior to starting Scout Lab, was brand felt very ephemeral. A lot of companies would think that design and strategy should live completely separately, but ultimately what we see is when you bring these 2 disciplines together, that's when the magic actually happens. So that's kind of phase 1. When we're thinking about actually getting that brand, once it's ready to go out into the world, which is where I get really excited about things, is where we have a little bit of a different take, I think, than a lot of other firms. So we take the philosophy of me before we, which sounds counterintuitive, but ultimately where we're at kind of as a society when it comes to these larger questions of whether it's sustainability or, you know, human health, is that we have to still serve the individual before talking about the collective. So if you want—

Yeah.

The road to getting something to be better for the collective is actually through just making sure that you have a more superior product, that you are creating a message that resonates and that actually brings some element of fun or joy, what have you. Because I think ultimately what we're moving away from and what we came from was this era of shame, right? This marketing that was very fearmongering and really rooted in you're a bad person if you don't do this, or look at the thing that you're creating, here's the impact. But ultimately what we found is this more positive psychology approach, really speaking to people from a place of positivity, of power, of encouragement, of— again, I go back to the idea of fun— is how are we making this something someone actually wants to engage in?

Why would you want to have fun? That's for after work.

World's burning. Let's just have fun while we do it. Now, I do believe that there, there are brands that are doing this well. We've worked with a brand named Casetify for a while now, and I, what I love about the founder Wes's approach is he's thinking about how do I create, you know, this really large circular design program where they're taking in old phone cases and they're moving their supply chain, right? And it's not going to happen overnight, but they're doing this at a very large scale. And beyond just telling people, oh, this is what you should do, they're really thinking about how do we align with the cultural creators that are the most pivotal at this moment, right? So we worked with Olivia Rodrigo and like really thinking around how do we make this idea of circular design and participating in it a more community-driven act and something that feels like something you want to be a part of rather than shaming people into a behavior, because we've ultimately seen that that doesn't work long term.

Yeah, I mean, just look at where we are now. I've had this conversation quite a lot, actually been to the Senate a couple times in the last 6 months to pitch this idea, because we've spent, we spent so long telling doom and gloom to everyone. That you're bad, right? You're doing it wrong, all of this. And yeah, we've gotten better, but not— we could have gotten way better faster. Like, we know, we know from COVID that if we all just pause for like 6 months, we could do a lot in a short amount of time if we just aim in one direction together. So, you know, we have the capacity, we have the capability, we can improve it, but it hasn't. And I think this What you're talking about, this change, this shift towards more positive. And we've been trying the negative for so long. It's time. We really need to focus on this.

Yes. I love too that you're talking about going to the Senate because there's so many different pieces of this work, right? Brand work can be done on many different levels. One of them is, you know, policy level. I see brands like Bobbi, which is an infant formula brand, getting involved in making sure that, you know, women have access to maternal healthcare and paid leave, right? So there are ways for brands to be thoughtful about how are they supporting their long-term customer and how are they building brand love and loyalty in a way that goes far beyond just the everyday. And what's really interesting here is when we start to think about a brand as a vehicle for a story beyond just a product, that's when I think it gets really exciting. Because what you just said about this idea of doom and gloom is we've only been told these same doom and gloom stories over and over again. So in our collective imagination, what sits there is not how can we have this more healthy society where we're living in greater harmony with the natural world. What's sitting there is Oh, this is only going to get worse, right?

And I think that's— And it's your fault.

And it's your fault. And that's where a lot of eco-anxiety comes from. If you look at kids, you look at younger generations, you know, there's more stress, there's more disconnection. But ultimately, if we look at what's— what the human population is capable of, we're able to make incredible strides. And so I'm actually more optimistic now about where we are and using all the tools at our disposal to get us to a much better place. But Ultimately, brands have the opportunity to participate in that by doing what I call story work, which is let's reframe, let's reimagine, and let's create a new collective imagination for what that future could look like. Because ultimately, you have to be able to create this new story for us to fall in love with.

Yeah, I love that. I think it's so important, right? In order to change the narrative, you have to actually change the narrative, which means you have to start Putting out a different whatever story we want, right? Which is, I agree with you; it should be we can do this. It's totally possible. It's not the end of the world. Just this is what we're creating. We're creating a positive outcome, and then you get everybody thinking about that. But you got to start individually on brands, and they need to start doing that. And as they shift, and I think you know you've you've seen this trend, right? The average consumer is on board. I think part of it is just, it's one, it's new, right? We've been doom and glooms for so long. So anything other than doom and gloom gets people's attention. If you start being nice to people, people like that too. Like that, just, you know, instead of blaming everybody, the average person, it's, oh no, you're, you can be part of the solution. Look, just do this. I think it can be a very quick shift. I have hopes for this shift. At least to me, it feels like We've been slowly, slowly, slowly climbing up, getting over doom and gloom a little bit. And now we're like, if not already past the tipping point, very close to that point to where it just becomes a nice snowball good effect, where we move over to this positive, not blame everybody, just solve the problem position instead of point and blame.

Yeah, you know what, Ian, that's such a good point. Because so often too, maybe this is a little bit of a double-edged sword where the individual can feel a lot of weight on themselves to maybe participate or try to change things, when in reality, I think there can be a balance, right? You can participate and you can wake up and have that agency. And ultimately, your action speaks back to our economy, right? We're in a state where everything that we choose ultimately has an impact on brands. And the way that brands are behaving has an impact on culture. And the way culturally we're acting has an impact on our society, our policy, all of these things. But at the same time, we cannot forget how important policy is. So when we look at things like what are we subsidizing, right, those are some really big questions that actually drive the needle way further than one individual can. So I don't want to discredit that because I think it's so important. And ultimately, the onus shouldn't be on every individual. However, if every individual is still conscious of this and waking up and making these decisions, then we're still going to be seeing these shifts at a faster rate. So I I really believe that those things, 2 things have to work kind of in unison.

Hey, it's Ian here. So glad you're enjoying this episode of Conscious Design. If you want the full scoop on conscious design, what it is, how we do it, how you can do it, then check out our book. We wrote it so creative entrepreneurs like you can code social and environmental responsibility right into your brand's DNA. You can download the first chapter for free. Link is in the description. Enjoy the rest of the episode. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share. Hey there. Thanks for joining us for this episode. I hope that you're enjoying the content we're putting out. If you're looking for more ways to learn about this, to get involved, create your own consciously designed products, there's a couple of ways that you can do that. First is our book Conscious Design, which you'll find a link to in the description of this episode. Please check that out. Go over quite a bit of information— what the process is, how I've applied it to product design, and some really great examples of companies out there that are doing really great work, some of whom you have seen on this podcast. The other way is our course, 4 Weeks to Launch, where I peel back the curtain on how to develop a product start to finish in a way that can create positive impact rather than any negative ones. So please check that out. That is a great resource that will also be linked in the description as well. And see you in the next one. Yeah, I definitely think it's a balance. You're playing a balance. Even when you're the brand, you have to play the balance too. And you mentioned teenagers, younger generation, like my teenagers are like, The world's going to end. We're freaking out. I'm not from that generation. I'm like, well, I've been told my entire life it was the end of the world in like 3 years. So still here. Like, it's worn off. I don't even pay attention to that anymore because I would not be functional if I did. Right. But I think there's in between, right? They feel a lot more pressure individually. Oh, I need to do something, but I don't know what to do. And then there is that balance. And that's probably why I mentioned the policy stuff, because there's so much stuff with that, with policy side. And I think it's great, you know, brands, you mentioned some brands that actually are working on policies, right? There's more that you can do when you are a brand. You can have some more power behind you for getting policy made, right? I, as an individual, of course I can call my congressman, I can use, contact my senator, right? Whatever, I can do that. Yeah, that's not going to have as much push as if I'm like, well, I employ 1,000 people in your district, I bring in $30 million a year in your district, like, that has a lot more say. And they have people that obviously they're buying their product. You're selling $30 million worth of stuff, you have quite a few customers, that's an even— that gives you a much larger base To leverage, how do you see? Because right brand mission driven is good, but I've also seen a lot of companies that are purely sustainable mission driven rise and in the last five years crash and burn because at least to me and correct me if what you think seems that they're focused too much on just sustainability and not enough about the rest of how a business works or other. Like you're talking about policy, right? And that didn't expand what their mission was besides it's green, buy it. Thoughts on all that?

So when you're a brand that wants to have ultimately like a very sustainable base in your business model, something that you can really stand on, and we're not talking about greenwashing, we're talking about actual principles that you live by. I think it's important to remember that progress over perfection is okay. Ultimately, as long as you are being transparent about your process and what you're working on and what you're working towards, your customers and the general public will be supportive of that. Where companies get into trouble, I think, is when they overpromise or they are working towards something, but they are afraid of getting you know, canceled. So they actually don't talk about what they're doing at all. When ultimately, I think collectively we understand that there's no one perfect answer. So as long as we're more open about being clear about this being a process, that's really helpful. Because ultimately, with being a perfectly sustainable brand, I don't even know at this point with where we are, if most supply chains, that's even physically possible. But what is possible is to be learning along the way and continuing to work towards that. I'm sure there are companies that have maybe gone too hard too fast in trying to overcorrect, or I wouldn't say overcorrect, but trying to correct their supply chain, and that can impact their entire business model. But this goes back to what I said earlier about this idea of the me before the we. If you were just talking about sustainability, or you were just talking about, you know, your circular design program, That's one thing. But ultimately, you have to remember that at the end of this conversation, it has to be two-way. It can't just be you talking at someone. You need to center and focus on whoever that end customer or community member is. And that's where a lot of brands will have that missing gap. They say, we're doing so good, we're doing so much for the world. Like, why isn't our customer set responding? Or why isn't it working? And ultimately, they're forgetting this balance of one, all the other elements that need to go into the business model to make it work. And 2, that 2-way conversation and centering the individual rather than centering the action that you're taking as a brand. It's a much more selfish conversation, right? You don't necessarily want to sit and have a conversation with someone who just wants to speak at you. You want to have a conversation where you can talk back and forth. And that's the same goes for brands and people.

So that's right, a big thing. So how do you see the— some, like, what's a really good example of being able to facilitate that, making sure that there is actually a conversation and making sure, right, because there's a cultural side, the branding side of making the company approachable in a way that makes it so people actually want to talk back and provide feedback. How have you seen that executed Well, or is there, I guess, thoughts on that?

Yes. What we're seeing right now, one of the major— I wouldn't call it a trend. I actually think it's more of a cultural shift, is we're seeing a lot more companies be community-driven. What does that actually mean? It means finding the people who are really passionate about the thing that you're creating in the world and creating more of a community around that. So some of it can be connected to your actual product and some of it might be outside of that, just within that kind of same universe. But it's about providing an actual, providing something for them to be able to respond to and to participate in beyond just your product. I'll go back to Bobby again. It's my favorite example right now. But they, and this is a company that does really healthy, incredible baby powder formula. They have sessions where you can sit in on Zoom and you can talk to an expert about feeding, right? Like they've got all of these community programs set up so you can actually participate. I think that's a really good example of how can you provide value outside of your immediate product or service? How can you create a 2-way conversation of something that brands and people can participate in together beyond just social media, which I think is maybe table stakes at this point. You should be able to use that as a positive tool, right? But then campaigns are also another really great way. We've seen that again and again. There's so many ways to have individuals actually participate in campaigns beyond just, you know, again, that one Way message, right?

I feel like there is so many options. Sometimes it's overwhelming for new brands to see. Okay, there's you know a thousand ways to do it. How do we do that? I love that example. I think that idea of creating, right? Because if you're mission driven, but you don't have a community, it's really hard to hard to keep that going. I feel like those are really tied together.

Yeah, I'll say too. So one of my early jobs in my career was building Airbnb's brand kind of from the ground up and scaling it globally, and it was very much a community driven. Driven brand, and we were very focused on how do we build community. And one of the original stories that I love from Brian and Joe was this idea of getting 100 people to love you. So instead of trying to think about pleasing the masses and becoming this massive brand in the beginning, if you can just focus in on getting 100 people to absolutely fall in love with your brand, with your product, with your community. And then when we think about community, community isn't about your brand being connected to this individual. It's actually about the individuals that are surrounding your brand being connected to each other. And that's where a lot of that real stickiness and glue comes from, right? It's like that facilitation of relationships between people around your brand and not just to your brand. We're just talking about the individual being excited about the brand. We're talking about something that's completely measurable, like brand awareness or brand love. When we're talking about community, we're talking about something much more powerful, which is the ability for this kind of collective action and engine that can take on a life of its own.

Yeah, I think that's such a really key thing that a lot of companies forget because they get into, right, this whole idea of find your superstar, find your 100 fans. You know, this isn't a new concept, people. It's been there. But I, I love that you broke out the part where it's not about the brand and that it's not 100 individual connections. It's 100 people that are all connected and you happen to be the 101st in the group, not the other way around. And that idea, right, that, that is that stickiness. As soon as people are numbered, when you get people together, if they connect together, you're now forming this web rather than a few strings that are out there. Like, anybody can do that. That's just a good customer, right? They like it, they buy it. Cool. That's an exchange that's working. I think I'd love to go back to your me before we thing, because I think that is a unique, but I think really important thing that I kind of— you mentioned earlier, like, marketing is shame-based, right? It's all negative. And there's also, you know, we have this, I think, on the ideal level, right? It's everybody, you know, collective before the individual, whatever. Star Trek, Spock, that really was out there, right? That got culturally put into our minds. But I also think that moving away from that, you're really playing to ultimately human nature, which is we're all selfish.

Right.

We all— our singular goal is to make sure that we stay alive as long as possible. That's our job. If not, we wouldn't last very long. Well, as a species, we would've been wiped out many, many years ago. So you take care of— and kind of the idea of like, if you take care of your needs, it's also the, you know, when you're on an airplane, they don't tell you put everybody else's mask on first. They say put your own mask on so that you don't pass out. And then you take care of other people. Like, that's an emergency situation, and that they know works perfectly. Like, that is— that's how you handle emergency situations. So shifting how you think about people to that, how have you seen the change when you approach people with that idea of, okay, let's take care of you and what you need, and then everything else, versus everybody else is before you, you're dead last? What have you seen shift as you worked with brands to move them over to that? What have you seen? Like, how does that impact the customers?

There's a couple of pieces to this. One is creating something that people actually want to participate in. I actually think Tesla is a really good example of this, where early days Tesla didn't just lean on the fact that they were a more sustainable option or you know, an electric car. It was really about, you know, the look, the feel, the drive, right? And say what you want about Tesla now, we'll save that for a whole other day, a whole other podcast to go there.

Yeah.

But I do think there's something to be learned from that case study of looking at, okay, how do we make sure that we're centering all of the baseline things that someone cares about? And then, oh, by the way, it's also a better option for the planet is a part of that conversation, but it's not the whole conversation. And that's where a lot of brands get caught up and they start to forget or kind of lose track of the prioritization list of what people care about. And it also depends on who your customer actually is. This is why building personas and having psychographic information is so important, because different groups of people actually have varying degrees of how much they care about this different messaging. And I think if we can meet people where they are instead of expecting them to be further along this experience funnel, then we can actually move the needle in getting to make better decisions, which I think is ultimately what we're talking about.

That is important, right? Understanding, because there's where we think everyone is. And of course, we do that ourselves. Obviously, we all think we're better than we are. That would be— most of us do, right? We all think, oh, I'm good at that, or I'm better behaved, I do better at this. Ranking yourself is never a good idea usually, right? So if we do that, we aren't really realizing where we're at. And that makes it really hard to connect with people. If you're assuming you're in the wrong spot, you're going to have a really hard time moving anybody forward. They're not going to connect with you at all.

That's the exact word is assumptions, right? And I think with brands, we find that there are a lot of assumptions made based on what we believe. So oftentimes with younger brands that don't have access to a lot of data, one of the most common things that we see is founders or executive teams believing that their customer is a direct reflection of them and that they'll understand the same things or want the same things, that kind of founding team. Now, there's some elements that are— could be true depending on the size of the company, because you're creating something and you're going to attract the people that like what you're creating. at that fundamental level. But as soon as you start to go a layer deeper, you start to understand that this idea of understanding psychographics is so important, right? You said it yourself, we're anthropocentric as beings. We're going to put ourselves as humans at the center of our own world because that's evolution. And if we don't do that, we cease to exist, right? So ultimately, if we don't start with that conversation of how is this benefiting you, Before we talk about what are you doing to help benefit everyone else, we're not going to get there.

I've had this conversation about like, how do you market a product? I think this goes back to like the companies I've seen that are crashing is they list sustainability as feature number one. And my argument now is that sustainability shouldn't be a feature, it should just be a standard expectation. And that, I feel that's where a lot of consumers are moving to is where 10 years ago, if you were the only sustainable cup, you could win. Like there was no competition. There was no competition. It was just you. You win by default. But now there's 1,000 companies with sustainable cups. Now there's 1,000 companies, you know, it's not the feature. It isn't a selling point. It is there. Right. And but I would argue that more of the mission, like what you talked about, of, oh, I'm going to work on these policies, I'm going to do these other things that positively impact my customer base in a totally different way. That is more of a feature now for someone than is it sustainable? Is it recyclable? How do you feel about features in that way?

So we are fundamentally aligned with your philosophy, which is when we think about something that's more sustainable and more regenerative, we're in a place now where that needs to be table stakes, especially if you want to connect with millennials and Gen Z. The next generation that's going to consume your product or service is only going to show up not just expecting this, but demanding this. And so to have it as a main feature and benefit is ultimately in the long term not going to be a sustainable, you know, thing for you to hang your hat on because it has to just be a part of the way that you exist. You're going to have to compete on all these other different aspects. So we definitely see that as something that the brands that we work with generally understand, that kind of a fundamental standpoint, which is where you start to see people innovate, which I think is really exciting because there's so much innovation to literally every category beyond just being more sustainable. That's maybe one element beyond does it fit better? Does it work better? Is it longer lasting? Whatever the category is that you're looking to innovate on, there's so many opportunities to better serve your market and better serve your customer in a bigger way, even down to just do you have a community built out? Is there a connection? Is this a brand that people want to participate in? Ultimately, is it cool, right? There's like, there's so many things that I think people forget when it comes to sustainability and sustainability Accessibility ends up getting put into this category that might feel like a nice-to-have when ultimately it's a need-to-have, I believe, for connecting with the next generation of consumer. Right.

So you really do see this line generationally. You're, you're seeing it's millennials, Gen Z, obviously the next, the Gen Alpha is the next. Alpha.

Yep. I've got a little alpha at home. Yep.

Yeah, we have some alpha tiers. That's gonna be— they won't even know. I feel like they won't even know what not having it as an option would be. And so even contemplating choosing something else would be really hard. Just like they will never understand a world without internet or iPads or any of, any of those technologies.

Yeah, I hope so. I— that's, that's the goal, right, is that we get to that point where we're no longer having a conversation about just what raw materials are being used, or, you know, what is the supply chain, but we're actually starting to think more circular. Like, there's so much more in this world beyond circular. Is it regenerative, right? There's so much to innovate on beyond where we are. We're at such a nascent place in this value chain from a brand perspective, from a materials perspective, that I love the work that you're doing because it's, you know, You're pushing against that and saying, wait, there's so much more here. Look behind door number 3, right? What are all the things that we're just not thinking about that can create more value too? We're not just talking about removing something. We're talking about creating way more value than already exists, but in a way that creates it for— at a larger community scale generationally, and then also from a brand perspective. So that opportunity is there. It's just whether or not brands are ready to hear it.

Last question. You work with brands, obviously, right? And you only work with ones that are willing to do better and aim towards this path. Same as me. We're working with people that actually want to move forward. How do you feel that is a percentage or sway? Like, is this something that you have to sell people on? Is this something that people come to you And they're like, I kind of want to do this but have no idea how? Or is it people that are like, we're doing this, it could be you or there's— we'll find somebody, it doesn't matter, we're going to do this no matter what. How do you feel that ratio is between those, those groups of people for this kind of thing?

So for us, we tend to work with brands that are already fairly aligned and on this path. I think they innately kind of understand the value. They understand not just the human value, but they understand the monetary value of this kind of thinking long-term and where it's taking them. If we have to explain that from the ground set, it's probably not the right partner for us, that's for sure, because ultimately we're not here to fight an uphill battle about what is really basic at this level. However, if there are larger companies that maybe have historically not been on board with this type of thinking, but they're ready to go there. It might be a little bit harder of a path to get there, but they're ready to do the work. We absolutely will do that as well. We love those kind of challenges because they are ultimately able to make a bigger impact if they have a larger footprint. So I'm very much pro working with the brands that have historically been extremely extractive to help them move to a place where they're really thinking, okay, how can we— as long as it's Not greenwashing, and it's an intentional—

Gotta be real.

Change the system, then yes, we are completely on board. I mean, this goes back to the progress over perfection perspective. I think as individuals that work in this space, like you and I, Ian, we have to be open to companies that have historically not been on the path that is regenerative and helping them get there. Otherwise, We're never all going to move in the same direction. It's not about creating, you know, an us and them. It's about just realigning all of the incentives to say, hey, we can all get there together and there's more abundance for everyone when we do that.

Yeah, I think this is one case where the grass is greener on the other side and we just need to all hop the fence together and it will be good.

Yeah, it will be good. And I think too, you know, when we talk about sustainability, when we talk about choosing things that are maybe better for the planet, what we often forget to talk about is equity and accessibility. How much are these things being created in a way that is opening up to more communities and the supply chain that's supporting more communities? So that's another area that we do work in that I really love, that I think is a more burgeoning space. That's interesting, is how are we also thinking about the people at the end of the supply chain that are participating, and how can we make sure that as we start to move to a more regenerative economy, we're thinking about who it's regenerative for beyond just our environment, but really including more of those voices. One of the things I get really excited about, so right now, if just, if you purely look at the data, indigenous communities around the world are less than 5% of our population, but protect over 80% of the world's biodiversity. That is absolutely insane when you start to think about how much value indigenous communities are protecting every single person on this planet. But these are also some of the poorest communities, right? They're the most at risk. And so when we start to think about how can we create these new systems, or how can we move to be more aligned with a more regenerative economy, we also have to start to think about how are we aligning these incentives and ecosystems to support the people that are already trying to protect them, or already participating in them? So, you know, that's, we, we can talk about that another day, but just another big piece of this puzzle that I think it can't go unmentioned.

Yeah, I feel like we could talk for hours on this. It's, there's so much, and I think that's one of the things that has scared people away. Probably the easy cop-out is, oh, it's too complicated. We can't possibly, we can't as a business do that. Like that's the easy cop-out answer. It's too complicated to understand. And now Like, as we're moving, right, people are understanding and things with conscious design that we're doing is really, it takes such a huge mindset change to even think about. Like, you just mentioned people as part of the supply chain way deep down there. Like, that is something, you know, we talk about supply chain and most people go, oh, it's the screws and nuts and bolts and wood and aluminum. And like, yeah, and you know, there's a person, right, attached to that. There's a person. And yes, fair trade is in our consciousness, right? But it's not other than that word, right? Fair trade, cool. Somebody's getting paid well. Well, money isn't everything to them. There are other factors. There's also so much to think about. It is a lot, but we can design it better. solution for it. So that's all, and that's what I'm trying to do, focus on that, like solve it with design. We can do it.

We can solve everything with design. This is why I love, you know, that's why I love design, because what we're actually talking about is being intentional. We're talking about slowing down, not doing the things the way that they've always been done, and actually considering, okay, what if we did it a different way? And that's the beauty of design, right, is that we actually get to reimagine how we might approach these problems because a lot of them aren't problems we've ever had before. So they're going to take solutions that we've never had either.

I would argue that we have never actually sat down and designed a system that, like, our global supply chain was not designed. Nobody sat down a committee and said, let's think about the most efficient, most effective Most cost-effective. Like, it is very inefficient right now. It's terribly costly. If somebody actually sat down as a business plan, was like, here's our planet business plan, here's the system we want to build, nobody would approve it. It's terrible. There's no efficiency to it at all. Like, no board on this planet would ever agree to what we've decided to do for the planet because we've never sat down. We've never—

We never decided, to your point.

We never decided. We never decided. We've had vastly separate groups of people from vastly different cultures doing their own thing. And collectively, we're like, all right, I guess we'll like all play together. But nobody, nobody really thought through a system for everything for a supply chain. If I could, that would be what we should do next. Like if we were to actually sit down and go, all right, brands, all right, we have raw materials, here's where it is. Let's figure out how to get it most efficiently to everybody that needs it. We'd probably decrease our cost by a thousandfold just efficiently transporting goods. We just start there. That's it. That's all we need to do. Efficiency.

Yeah, I think to that point too, just a more tactical thing, because I think what we're talking about feels so big. But if you're a brand and you want to put one foot in front of the other, All you have to do is start with understanding what is your own zone of genius, right? What is the thing that you do and how can you start to think from that place first instead of trying to solve all of these other problems, right? So if you're a coffee company, you're starting with the plant. If you're a mattress company, you're starting with maybe your raw materials or you're starting with understanding, you know, the larger ecosystem of stores that you work in. Whatever it is, choose one thing, choose one thing to start with, and literally just put one foot in front of the other. Where I see companies have a really hard time is when they try to do everything at once. You said this yourself, when— that's when you start to see companies go out of business, when they try to fix everything. But ultimately, if we can just get companies starting on those one or two really key initiatives and following through on them, It's going to make a massive, massive impact.

Yeah, I think that's— that is so important to say. I say it as much as I can. Baby steps are what you need. You can't have this focus on doing everything. You can go watch the movie Everything Everywhere All at Once, and you'll see how chaotic that is. Any company trying to do it, that existence is that movie. It's a mess. Don't, don't do it. Don't do it.

It's not—

it doesn't work. Taking little baby steps is okay. And I think we have— this is a cultural shift, maybe we can figure out how to change this one— it's like the overnight success. We culturally don't pay attention to the fact that it was 10 years, and then yeah, between the last day of the 9th year and day 1 on the 10th year, yes, overnight, they technically became a big hit. But there's all those other 9 years of days where they were working on this. Like, this wasn't invented yesterday. It's been years. And I think we just don't value that. And as we— if we can shift to value that, then it'll become easier. And I think as companies show their story, um, there's a company I actually interviewed a while ago that did handbags And they incorporate their customers, their clients through Instagram as they're developing a new product. Like, here, what do you think about this latch versus this latch for the purse? What do you think about this strap or this? And involving like, we're developing a product and we're gonna— it's gonna take us a year. We'll take you on our journey. So we're shifting that way, starting to value the process and not just the destination. Which we need to. So yeah, well said. Well, Willow, this has been super amazing. We definitely could talk for hours and hours. Last thing, for anybody who wants to work with you, reach out to you, what's the best way to reach out?

Yeah, so check us out on scoutlab.com.

Perfect.

Awesome.

Well, thanks, Willow.

Yeah, thanks so much. This was so fun. I'll talk to you soon.

Cool.

Bye, everyone.

Good meeting. Catch you soon. And that wraps up another episode of the Conscious Design Podcast. If today's episode inspired you to bring your product idea to life and turn it into a sustainable 7-figure business, visit petermanfirm.com or click the link below. Your ideas have the power to change the world, and we're here to help make that happen. Thank you for joining us, and I'll see you on the next episode.