Be a No-Plastic Fanatic with Ryan Lupberger of Cleancult

Hello and welcome to this episode of Conscious Design. I'm your host, Ian Peterman, and author of the Conscious Design book. And today I'm excited to have Ryan. He's the co-founder and CEO of Clean Cult. They make non-plastic containers for eco-friendly soaps and cleaning supplies, which is amazing. Welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me, Ian.

Yeah. So first, I love the idea. I think we actually just interviewed Boxed Water, which—

Yes, I know Rob personally. Love it. Yes.

So a great, great story, great idea. And I love that you guys are taking that and going, yeah, we can put other stuff in there too. It works. So to start off though, for all of our listeners, would love to have you Take a little step back and dive into what, what got you, maybe it's your friendship, but what got you to go, yeah, we wanna, we wanna start this company and put soap in a box.

Yeah. So Boxwater was actually an early inspiration for us. So we've kind of seen that brand start to shift the category. So they were absolutely, you know, one of the brands we looked up to in the early days. But, you know, our story's a little different. So, you know, I'm born and raised in Boulder, Colorado. So always been very natural, crunchy, grew up with very frankly, Happy parents.

Recycling was a thing.

Exactly. Composting too, even though—

Composting.

Yes.

Don't forget that one.

Exactly. So we really kind of grew up in this sphere, you know, worked for a social venture accelerator that supported better-for-you businesses and fell in love with their ability to change, right? Change the system, change categories, change behavior, right? And then went to business school on the East Coast at Babson. And when I was there, I looked at the back of my bottle of laundry detergent and I didn't see Any ingredients listed. I'm still Boulder kid at that point. It's like, why aren't there ingredients on the back of my cleaning products? It's on everything else. So it was like, this doesn't make any sense.

Right.

So you just sent me down this huge, huge research path back then. It was, you know, what are the ingredients? What are in our cleaning products? Turns out 3% of the weight of your clothes is actually leftover laundry detergent. So it's, it's on you every day. And so the more research I did, the more I realized the categories highly unregulated. So you have the EPA, the FDA, the USDA, but they focus on what's in you, right? Not what's— or not what— or what's on you, not what's around you, right? So technically laundry is not on you. So a lot of toxins, 1,500 chemicals that are banned overseas that are allowed here in the States, a lot of untested ingredients, just, you know, carcinogenic dirty stuff, right? So then we look for the natural products— Method, Meijer, Seventh Generation, Babyganics. And they all use plastic. For me, you know, I was like, how can these better for the world brands use petroleum-based plastic packaging at scale? And, you know, you walk retailers and it's a wave of plastic that frankly falls on you, especially in laundry detergent aisle. It is just so much waste. So I was like, this doesn't make any sense. So then I went on another journey. I tried concentrates, DIY vinegar powders, but none of it worked very well.

That's a rabbit hole.

Yeah, literally it really is. And, you know, nothing worked for me and I was like, why isn't there a solution that had a zero or reduced waste packaging that used something that was not plastic with a really easy and effective formulation that uses clean and biodegradable ingredients? So we kind of had this aha moment and then launched Clean Cult. So in 2016, we kind of had this idea. It took us 3 years to actually get to launch and we are actually the first company in the world to put soap cleaners and detergent in a milk carton instead of a plastic bottle, very similar to boxed water. And now we're also launching our new filled and refillable aluminum bottles to pair directly with your refill. So it's really how do we shift this entire category away from plastic but without changing behavior? That's always been our vision.

Yeah, I think that's so important. That's fine. I was just doing another interview recently and we were talking about Kind of that idea of you gotta make it sustainable is cool unless it's really hard to do. And you know, like, like the rabbit hole that you drove, dove down. Yeah, you can make it yourself. You can do, you know, there's powders, there's all of these options, but if it doesn't, if it's not easy, it's really hard to move consumers over, over to a better option.

Yeah, exactly. And you know what's challenging? And frankly, it's just how our system works. It's, Even you think about a tablet or a concentrate, and then you think of a mass retail environment like a Target or Walmart, even if it's easy, it gets lost on those shelves, right? Because they're so tiny compared to these big jugs. So it's even like institutionally or structurally, it's really hard for these other reduced waste form factors to break through 'cause they just can't win in that, in that retail environment.

Oh yeah, I hadn't, I hadn't thought about that. But it's so, that is so true. Like people, packaging, right? It's all about packaging and shelf space. So if you can make your product bigger, then you have more, you have more marketing. You basically have a bigger ad spot than your competitor. If your giant bottle is there, you can, you know, Tide takes over however much space in a store.

Yep, exactly.

What has been— I had 3 years. That actually sounds like a pretty, pretty fast development time to go to a whole new packaging. Now, did you— you've developed your own formulas for the actual what goes inside and then the packaging. Talk a little bit about that journey because it's, you know, it sounds like a bit of a journey to get there.

Yeah, for me, we call it dog years, right? 3 years did not feel like a short time. And then when we actually launched, we call them almost The dark years because our first products leaked and dripped and all that soap that you put in that paper packaging destroyed it. And so we had some really challenging years when we went to commercialization and scale. But I mean, early days, we've basically seen 3 waves of household cleaning products, right? So wave 1, conventional products, high efficacy petroleum-based cleaners after World War II, everyone bought machines. The middle class really came alive, right? Then we saw Wave 2. This was 7th generation in the '90s said, why do we have to use petroleum-based ingredients? What about plant-based but super dark green? Right. And very natural. Didn't work that well back then. Then we had Wave 2.5. We call it Method Mrs. Meyer's. They made natural cleaning accessible and attractive and frankly, like sexy packaging. Right. And works well.

Right.

So they made it accessible. But now we're in wave 3, so it's clean from start to finish. So it's not just packaging, it's also formulations, it's also end of life, it's also shipping. So when we set up this business, it was what is clean from start to finish? It was really clean ingredients that are biodegradable, right? Mostly made from plant-based sources, packaging that was recyclable and paper-based. So we get that, that end of life and then also shipping. So we're actually carbon neutral. We partner with, with Carbon Fund as well as actually a different organization in Colombia to ensure that, again, every piece of our cycle is clean. So we've always wanted to do that from day one. So we actually developed our own formulations, really clean ingredients, mostly based on coconuts. We have super clean cleaning products that we tested with Sterling Research Laboratory to make sure we could kill all those stains and really go after some of the dirtiest dirt, both in clothes and hand soap and dish soap. Yeah. So that's about what we do. We really frankly had to take a big step back and say, how do we fundamentally rethink cleaning? Because it was, we need to do all of these things well. It wasn't just packaging well. So we really wanted to do all, all of it above.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, that's the approach that I wish everyone, everyone would take is how do you, because you really thought about All of the steps. And that's actually the, the whole reason I have this podcast and I wrote a book is, is to try to get more people to do that. Well, yeah, it's great. The packaging, that's A-level, right? Is cool packaging, good packaging, sustainable packaging. But there's a bunch of other things. Something that, that can't— you mentioned that kind of surprised me a little bit. I'm not, I guess not really now that I'm thinking more and more about it, but how unregulated So a cleaning industry is because it's used everywhere and there's industrial applications. There's all kinds of, right? Cleaning literally happens all the time everywhere that's happening. So that's an interesting thing that it's so unregulated. Are you seeing a change in that at all? Is there a push for it or how? How is that world of cleaning?

Yeah, the challenge is there's so many chemicals and ingredients, right? So there's basically 3 different subcategories and we could geek out about this. So if we go down this rabbit hole, we could take it back up. But there's rabbit holes, there's pesticides, which actually includes disinfectants like hand sanitizers or antibacterial products. There's cleaners and there's soap, and they're actually completely 3 different categories. So I think about my all-purpose cleaner. That's actually a disinfectant if it says 99.9% antibacterial, right? So whole different ballgame and different regulatory body, right? So I say that. So in cleaners specifically, so away from soap, just cleaners, that's like dish soap, all-purpose cleaner, laundry detergent, that's regulated by— it's called CFRA. And on a national scale, the EPA regulates the guidelines from CFRA.

Okay.

The challenge there is they tackle big issues like lead paint, like, you know, asbestos, like these really bad ingredients. And, or for example, one, phthalo blue, which is also carcinogenic. But there's so many ingredients out there right now that it's just untested, right? So the US far lags in some of this ingredient development compared to the EU. Like I mentioned, the UK has 1,500 chemicals that are banned that we allow here in the States. So it's just, it's an uncertain category right now. It's just we don't don't have enough resources and time or focus as a country right now to regulate this. So the 2 leaders have actually been states. So California has know what's in your cleaners, basically. In 2016, they passed a law so cleaners have to start labeling, and so did New York in 2020, which is a little bit more even broad. So it's happening, but it's on the state level versus the national level, and it just takes time to catch up.

Are you finding, 'cause I know companies just make different versions for each country. Like I've seen the comparison between, you know, like Quaker Oats in the UK versus the US is 2 different ingredient lists.

Yeah.

Which never made sense to me 'cause it, it would seem like you would just have the same product. Are, are you seeing that as a benefit? 'Cause you're, I would assume that you're, what you're doing is EU certified, then you would be able to, you're not, you're not using all those banned things.

Yeah, you know, one day, one day we'd love to be there. We frankly, US is a big place. We waste a lot of plastic. I mean, there's just over 500 million bottles that are pushed in the landfill every year here. Only like 6% gets recycled. So we see the US as our number one focus. It's just a massive plastics waste crisis right now. One day we'll go to the EU, but we're not, we're not talking that market. Not there yet. One day. Yeah. So that is our goal.

That's awesome. Yeah. And that's a good, I guess a good point. We do waste a lot. Yeah. For your product, because I saw you and you just showed the Alum. So you have the actual, so your idea is it's refillable, right? You have A dispenser, permanent, don't throw it away, not plastic. Yep. And then you're ordering basically these refills that you then refill with.

Yep.

And that's, I feel like it's a pretty easy, pretty easy way. That's sort of how most people do it now rather than, and you don't have to do anything to it. It's not a con— is it a concentrate or you're just ready, ready to use basically? Ready to use.

We call 'em our RTUs. Yeah. I mean, to your point, it's, We— so when we launched this brand in 2019, we're slightly premium to the leading natural cleaners and it worked, right? But we really found out with a lot of the research we've done that just people aren't willing to pay more, period. They are willing to pay more from the conventional products like, you know, imagine a soft soap. They're not willing to pay more than the leading natural. So took us a long time to frankly realize that is people aren't willing to pay more for reduced waste solutions generally, but they are willing to choose reduced waste solutions if they're priced at the same, right? So that was really kind of our aha moment. So our refills are distributed nationwide at Walmart, Kroger, CVS, Walgreens, and launching in many more retailers here in the next 6 months as well. And we're now one of the best-selling refills in, in these doors, which is super exciting. But even with that growth, we noticed that refill, our carton, didn't pair with just a really good, easy, ready-to-use bottle at $5, right? The general price point in the market. So we've now spent the last 2 years after we've innovated with a carton. It's what material could be launched and used in your home that looked great, was ready to use, that could retail under $5 but be refilled forever. And we landed on aluminum. So we're actually the first company in the United States in the mass market launching filled and ready-to-use aluminum in— excuse me, aluminum all-purpose cleaner in dish bottles. So they're launching in your neighborhood store. I can't say which, but in about 2 weeks here. So late October. And that really is directly paired with a refill based on all the learning. So it's how do we tackle this category, change all this behavior, but without changing behavior? It's always been our, our vision here.

Hey, it's Ian here. So glad you're enjoying this episode of Conscious Design. If you want the full scoop on conscious design, what it is, how we do it, how you can do it, then check out our book. We wrote it so creative entrepreneurs like you can code social and environmental responsibility right into your brand's DNA. You can download the first chapter for free. Link is in the description. Enjoy the rest of the episode. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share. Yeah, well, that's great. About when this episode goes live or around there, you'll be, you'll be in some more stores.

Yes.

Yeah, that's awesome. Now, you've developed the dispenser. Did you have to use plastic components? Like how, how aluminum were you able to make, make it?

Yeah. Yeah. So there's 2 pieces that Even if you go to what's called PLA, which is a plant-based plastic, you will always have some, right? So we've actually basically partnered with the US Plastics Pact as well as with the US Plastic Coalition to remove plastic from this. So the 2 components that just exist, and it's frankly impossible to get them out of usage, is the plastic cap on that carton that's still recyclable, but it is plastic, even if it's a plant-based. plastic, and then the plastic spray trigger on the aluminum bottle. So that aluminum bottle is 100% plastic-free, but that trigger, even if it can be used for 1, 3, 5, 10 years, it is plastic. But we've sponsored with an organization to remove all that plastic out of here. I can even show you. So we're certified plastic neutral. I don't know if you can see that on the bottle. So that for every plastic piece that we do have to use, We actually take that out of the ocean and remove that entirely from the ecosystem.

Got it. Okay. Yeah, that's a— I haven't heard of that organization. That's really awesome. So it's kind of like a carbon credit sort of thing where it's, hey, like we're going to remove it over here even though we have to use it over here.

Yep. So it's similar to a carbon credit. I would just say much more trackable and actionable. So we work with a program called Suelo Azul. in Colombia that basically, you know, let's say we sell a million bottles and of the million bottles it is a million caps. And of those caps, even though they're recycled, we're just gonna say we did have to create those 'cause we're trying to do more credit, take more out of the environment that we put in and do much better than all the other companies. So let's say it's a million little caps. So that would be, you know, 100,000 pounds. So not to say it would be, but 10,000 pounds of plastic just for the example. So we actually then go partnered with our Sueny Azul take all of that plastic out of local rivers, lakes, even streets, and then actually repurpose that into composite building material. And that's all on our website to then actually be used again back in actually something industrial.

That's awesome. And so you can do that even though, let's say you were able to move to a biodegradable plastic, you'd still be able to do that and that would offset even more.

Correct.

What you're able to do. That's amazing.

Yeah, that's again, it's like we want to keep moving the industry and there's, you know, we've all seen it, but some of these big strategics, like the biggest companies in consumer goods, they're having record profits, right? Like there's no excuse for them not to start moving this direction, but it's gonna take consumers and people helping them, putting the pressure on to move them there. So the programs are out there to start shifting and changing this category and just even the downstream effects, but it really is going to take investment to do so.

Right. Well, I mean, that's great. I think carbon, right? People are aware of, and we think about it, carbon offset. Even, you know, if you ship something like UPS has an option like, oh, pay an extra or whatever and we'll plant some trees and do carbon offset, right? So that's there, it's ingrained, consumers know about it. I didn't know about. So great. Always happy to learn more things. Always. I think every time I talk to someone, I learn something new and I love the idea, right? It's saying, yeah, we can also fund that and do that. And I think it's a better way because companies, right, you would maybe do a charity or something like that. I think this is a little, can be a little bit more actionable for people and more specific in going, hey, well, yeah, my money is going to actually clean up this specifically. I know exactly, I know exactly what the money's doing. And I think that transparency speaks to what you're building as a brand, which is great.

No, it's a goal. And I think, you know, it's interesting internally we say it's like CSE versus CSR, right? So corporate social integration, CSI, excuse me, not CSE, corporate social integration is The work you do automatically benefits your mission effectively, right? So cartons reduce plastic. It's embedded in the system, right? Corporate social responsibility would be, okay, we are selling certain pieces. How do we then offset that, right? So it's like we don't just believe in CSR. We also want it to be CSI, but it's like, how do we do both here? How do we integrate our products into solving the problem? But also, Any of the intangibles, how do we also solve that? So it's really, again, going back to like clean from start to finish is how do we address it?

Yeah, I love that you sat and you actually thought about it and go, what can we do? What can we actually do to make it start to finish? Is there, you've launched your products, right? You're launching this bottle. Where do you see the brand? Like what's your What's your long-term 10, 5, 10 years from now? What's your goal? What's your target? Yeah.

I mean, so we launched in 2019 direct to consumer and really we're a direct to consumer focused business. So start with bottles and then get refills on a subscription, built the business to, you know, a fairly healthy size and then moved into retail in 2021, basically iterated and figured out how we win in retail in 2022 and in 2023, we launched nationwide at Walmart. So 17 SKUs, as many as 3,000 doors, really went deep with the retailer and they are actively shifting these categories. It's really exciting to see what they're doing just with the size and scale that they are launching earlier this year, launching in another major retailer across club as well as grocery here in the US. So you ask about the vision. I think it's continuing to grow distribution because the more distribution that we have, the more the category shifts away from plastic. I think international is an option for us, like you mentioned in Europe and both Canada, is how do we move into other territories and start to do this too? And then there's also category expansion, right? You know, you think about that carton, what else is great in a carton? You shampoo, body wash, conditioner. There's so many liquids that live in our home that could be also transition away from big plastic bottles. So we wanna win in cleaning and hand soap, but it gives us the right to play in a bunch of different categories. So to be honest, I think we're just getting started and there's so much more room to run.

Yeah, I mean, that would be great. I think there's, like you said, there's so many. I'm just thinking through all the soaps that we have, right? There's dishwasher soap, there's laundry detergent, and then the bathroom. The bathroom is a whole bunch of just plastic bottles everywhere.

Yeah, we did a big campaign called the Plastics Purge earlier this year. And basically challenged— you had to count how many plastic bottles were in just one room of your house and cleaning, and then replace it with the Plastic Purge. And it's crazy. I mean, you go in your kitchen, there's 19 bottles on average in that kitchen just in cleaning, because you have all these hidden things under the shelf. You have hand soap there, you have dish soap, you have auto dish detergent, you have floor cleaner, you have— so there's literally on average—

Wow.

It's like 19 bottles in the kitchen alone. And you think that you open up that cupboard that's underneath your main sink there.

Don't.

Exactly. It's just—

That's got to be the black budget. We don't see it. We don't ask about it.

Exactly.

Oh, that's crazy. 19 is an average. I mean, I'm sure I'm going to later today go and count and I'll—

You count.

I know it's going to be there. And we're pretty sustainable in what we try to do, but it's There's, you know, there's just not options, right? And it's, well, do you want, do you want dishwasher detergent? Great. It comes in a plastic tub of some kind.

Exactly.

Even, even the, even the packs, right? The ones that it comes in a plastic tub.

Yes.

There's no, there's no option outside of, outside of that.

Yep.

So I would, yes, I would be very excited to see you guys tackle some more, some more areas, maybe do another, another one of those purge In like 3 years and see how much you can wipe out with what you guys are doing.

Yeah, exactly.

That's amazing. I'd love to explore a little bit and hear from you because getting into Walmart, that's, that's huge. That is a, a massive undertake. And I've seen, I've seen that, gone through that process a couple times, but I love just how was your experience? Because it's, it's amazing that they're interested in this product, right? It's Most people don't associate Walmart with sustainability. Those, those 2 words don't, don't usually come, come to mind at the same time. So how, how was that process? How, what got them interested? How were you able to get that in? Because it's huge. I mean, it's a huge, huge place to be able to shift some plastic out. Yeah.

But I think there's, there's almost like 3 different variables when we think about it. So from like the business perspective, Making sure your product is ready for retail, right? And it seems like no duh, but it really is a long development cycle. It took us 2 years to get ready. And when I think our, you know, our packaging was direct consumer in 2019 through 2021, it focused on ingredients, it focused on really telling that story. But when we put that in retail the first time in 2021, it failed on shelf because our packaging was not retail optimized.

Right.

And then I talked about price. Our higher price in the early days worked for some customers and some of our community online. Retail didn't work because you're right next to that $5, $8 bottle. So we really had to also sharpen our price. So from an entrepreneur perspective, it's like we had to be ready in all these different ways from supply chain to team to our order system to actually win in store. So that was the first part is just really being ready before you start to approach these. And the other 2 is you almost have 2 customers. you have our community of no plastic fanatics, our loyal, like, clean cult community that we want to go after. That's, you know, the end, the customer or the consumer, or we, you know, we refer to them in different ways. But then you also have Walmart, which is another customer, and they're almost, they want 2 different things. So retailers have big goals and Walmart has very aggressive regeneration goals. So I frankly did not, did not know that they had this deep of a focus and strategic pillar. But they arguably, out of all retailers in the United States right now, are leading the way. They have massive resources across almost every end goal from sourcing to shipping to packaging. It's just been really impressive to see so far. And, you know, frankly, they've tried 4 or 5 different reduced waste form factors over the last 3 or 4 years on the shelves and nothing worked. They tried concentrates, they tried tablets, they tried vials, they tried powders. So when they saw the solution, they were like, we think this is it because it's everything we've talked about, meeting the shopper, meeting her where she is and without changing behavior, but still getting rid of their plastic and still helping them hit their goals, right? So that was kind of the model behind this. But then it was, okay, this is great. You know, our supply team's ready. The retailer really wants you in. But do people like you on shelf? Very simple. But, you know, the beauty of retail is that there's not that much to do once you're in store. You know, you could talk about TikTok, brand awareness, activations, trade, all these different promotions. But in the end, you live and die by how well does your product do on that shelf, right? And there's really not that many levers to pull to inflate it. So that was a really important 6 months and we did quite well. Right. So it was the first brand that's really resonated on their shelves again in this, in this subcategory of reduction of waste in cleaning. And Yale's a little bit behind it. So it took years, I think, to be ready. I was in Bentonville almost 14 times this, this year. And I do think it's how do you make this not just a launch but a partnership? How do you really develop relationships across not just sales but sustainability, marketing, executives? Is how do you really build that bench across, across the retailer and vice versa?

Right. Well, and that's, and it's interesting to hear that they've, and it's kind of good, right? That they've been trying, they've been like trying all these other options. And so that's good, good for you, right? It's good for you to know, okay, yeah, we are, yeah, we thought this and if Walmart's proven out, nobody's willing to buy it because there's a, they can do a trial, they can do a real, really good trial. on probably hundreds of thousands of customers pretty quickly and go, yeah, no one wants to buy it. No one. It's a no, nobody wants it.

Yeah.

So that, and that's also a great test for you of having gone through that. And they said, yeah, this is good. This, we're moving because it is. So people think about, you know, direct to consumer, like, oh yeah, we get to build this customer relationship and you can nurture it, you can email people, right? There's all kinds of things you can do to connect. And when you put it on a shelf, like there's no salesperson, there's no—

Yep.

You have whatever the 3 seconds while they're looking down the aisle to see if it catches their eye and they read it and they still like it, then they get to decide if it's worth it. And it's all, there's zero input. Like you basically just throw the ball and where it lands is where it's gonna land. You're gonna You have no input after that.

Yeah. And it depends on the retailer, right? But Walmart is the, you know, it's everyday low price. So there are no promotion abilities. So, you know, you can affect it in some ways, but to your point, it works or it doesn't work and it's pretty black or white, which is good. Again, it's quick validation of the product, the brand and the vision.

Yeah. Well, that's awesome. This is exciting. I'm glad to see that Someone finally saw boxed water and said, yeah, that can do more things. You gotta tweak it. It's not just water.

So yeah, we know, Rob, where it's shared. It's how do we all become carton champions here, right? Because there's so many more form factors, so many more products that could go into cartons, but it's challenging from a machinery perspective, from a, you know, manufacturing perspective, very hard the first 2 years. Everything leaked. We had a negative gross margin, really hard early days. But yeah, so we really, it's like, how do we partner with brands like Boxwater and all take a stand against plastic?

Yeah, I love it.

I love it.

It's great. Well, I appreciate you taking the time to talk through this, share a bit about your journey. Amazing product. I love what you're doing and We just wanna make sure last little bit as we wrap up, anything else you wanna add? And then also, of course, please share where people can find you by finding your products, Walmart, but also direct sales. I know are good markets.

So. Yeah, well, just thank you so much for having me on today. So I think just closing, I think for us, we always like closing with this. These categories never used to be this way. It's very recently that they are now liquid products in big plastic jugs. Just 20, 30 years ago it was powder in a box, right? And 75 years ago it was ivory. So again, it's, we think that these categories have always looked this way, but it's absolutely not true. It's a very recent development, right? So it's like, if it didn't always used to be that way, it doesn't always have to be that way. We can shift the categories and we believe we fundamentally can shift what we see today, right? So we always like ending like that. It's just, I think there's a lot of hope. There's a lot of options to, to move the needle. You can find us at Walmart, you can find us on Amazon, you can find us at our own site, cleancult.com. And we hope you join the Clean Cult.

Fantastic. Yeah, I love that. I love that last point is people forget that, right? It has changed. It wasn't— your, your grandma did not buy soap like you do. Yes, it's true.

Even your parents, to some extent, depending on how old they are.

Yeah, exactly. So Love that. Thank you so much. Really appreciate you being on the show.

Yeah, likewise. Thanks again for having me. Yep.