Interview with Amy Kurr, Ph.D. Student at Case Western Reserve University on working with students on STEM fields

Well, welcome to this episode. I'm Ian Peterman, host of Conscious Design Podcast. And today with me is Amy Kerr. She has been speaking through to people about professional development and helping people in STEM learn some of the soft skills that aren't really taught in STEM through the college level.

Yeah.

And she's been working—

she's working on it through—

funded by the National Science Foundation to do this kind of free training for people. And welcome to the show, good to have you here.

Thank you, Ian. Yes, I'm very excited. Um, it's great to be here. And so like you mentioned, I have my background with my bachelor's, uh, in materials engineering, and then now I'm going back for my PhD, but I did spend a couple years in industry as a project engineer, or what we call a technical product owner, for residential circuit breakers with Schneider Electric. And so kind of during that transition, as well as in my undergraduate studies, I really got involved with a couple organizations. One of them, which you mentioned, is the NSF. The National Science Foundation is funding and working with Tau Beta Pi, the engineering honor society, to train up a number of STEM professionals, especially collegiate-level engineers, to give them the resources and the tools for these soft skills that aren't taught as well in the university, but really get— they're really important in industry. And so there's specifically teamwork, collaboration, communication, and leadership skills. And so with that, it's, it's been a great opportunity. But some of the big things, you know, that we're finding, for example, with communication, is that, you know, it's everything from email communication to speaking to connecting. And it's really critical that people are you know, concise, to the point, but that they're also, you know, asking a question at the end of it. Because sometimes we do great having a conversation, but in the end, you know, you're networking, you're not leveraging that. And so how can we get students, you know, especially STEM professionals, to leverage their network, especially some of them introverts that are out there? It doesn't have to be massive networking. It doesn't have to be every person out there. But just a few critical ones, you know, and how do you identify them? We spend a lot of time learning equations and math. There's no book for this, you know, and with everything going digital, I just— the job application process is so lengthy. And today you really need kind of an in. You need to know someone or you need to know a lot about the company. And so that's where it's not written out there how to do this. And so Kind of helping students largely guide that trek, or, you know, once they're in industry or academia, wherever, how do they keep moving where they want to go? So that's a lot of the communication aspect of it. But anything from, you know, attending meetings and setting up schedules, a lot of that is new for people who are just coming out of school if they didn't get an internship.

Yeah.

you know, if they did research instead. They also don't know much coming from the STEM side about marketing, you know, about finance, about business, about all this stuff that's going to kind of rule industry. They're just going in thinking they'll be crunching numbers, physics, science, math, and it just kind of throws them for a loop. And it's not that they're not good at it, but today you really need to be kind of what they're calling an I-level engineer, like the letter I. So you need to have this depth and breadth. So if you think of the letter I, right, you need to be able to go up and down, like depth of knowledge in a specific topic, and then left to right of the I in 2 categories, kind of. And that one is going to be this STEM-based stuff, you know, have a breadth of STEM knowledge, not just math or science, and you know what I mean? But whatever your topic is, whatever your specialty is, know the areas around it. And that lower chunk of the I that goes left to right, you know, you need to have personal breadth. And so we can't just have like a T-level engineer anymore because, um, that they're— it's just not good enough. It's so common people have that STEM breadth and they've got the depth. And now what our students or our engineers or all of industry, you know, needs to bring is this personal aspect. And we're seeing it everywhere. We're seeing it, you know, on LinkedIn, people are throwing in some personal stuff. We're seeing it in resumes and CVs. You know, you've got a couple lines, maybe you're putting a little color, a little flair. You know, you're putting personal stories in when you're meeting professionals and we're seeing it with the work from home a lot. People are mixing the personal and professional, and when done correctly, they're moving up, or they're, again, moving out, and out will go up, and so that's kind of the focus of this work with Tau Beta Pi and the National Science Foundation is maybe more developing that new part, that new breadth of these social skills, of this personal skill, and so Maybe going a bit to the side on the how to grow that and stuff. A lot of people don't know, you know, well, what makes me special? And they keep telling people, you know, think about something that makes you unique. Put it on the resume, put it on the LinkedIn, you know, be memorable. And that's the key, right? If you have all these connections, if you're memorable, people are going to remember you regardless to an extent of how much effort you put in, right? And it'll be the name, or it will be something. For example, I had an interview, um, you know, a while back, and I jumped on the call, spoke with the woman just a couple sentences, and she said, oh, I remember you, I'm so excited to talk to you. And I said, I apologize, I don't know you at all. Yeah, I don't recognize the name or anything. I said, could you remind me where I met you? And she goes, oh, you've never met me. I said, oh, oh yeah, um, could you elaborate? And she said, well, we were both at the Society of Women Engineers conference and you were about 2 tables away and I heard you telling a story, uh, as an— and you're an engineer, a female engineer, and your story was about weightlifting and powerlifting. And she goes, you just don't forget that anywhere. She goes, I recognize your voice. I sat 2 tables away and I listened in on your conversation. You know, for for enough time to recognize your voice. And I said, "Wow, I don't know what to say to that." But that's where stuff like that—you'll be memorable just for being unique. But but some people don't quite know, you know, how to hone that in. And at this point, I've kind of honed in a couple of my unique things, and weightlifting is one of them. And so, like I did at this networking conference, you know, this national conference, which. I talked about weightlifting, you know, and my other thing is kind of being a US-born English speaker who speaks Spanish. You know, it's not like you're the only person who does stuff, but you do a couple things really well, and when you put them together, that's what makes you unique. So for example, I heard this story. There's someone who is really good at art, at drawing, and he's really funny, but he could never be a comedian and he could never be an artist. just not that good at either of them. And he likes business and politics. That's just something for fun. And so he decided to put all 3 together and he writes political cartoons. It's funny, it's drawing, and it's, you know, political and stuff. And he's one of the best out there, you know, from this article I was reading. And that's what, you know, I think I would encourage people to do is, especially people who are starting out in their career, they don't know what they want to do. Find what you're really good at and just keep pursuing that and look for ways that it intertwines and links. And so what you're going to be great at, what you're going to succeed at, is something that you can do every day and you're never going to get tired of doing it. The only way you can do that and enjoy it and put in extra hours if you want to or need to is if you just love it. And you know what you love. And so just keep going after things that you love and they will mesh together. And if they don't, that's when you create it. And it could be anything from creating an intern position to creating, you know, a research topic or a research proposal to creating, you know, or manifesting different classes with a different major or a different grad school or eventually a position. And eventually you might create, you know, positions for other people or a company. You know, entrepreneur skills or positions are just growing, right? We're hiring— not we, but like the world is growing largely because of how many jobs, you know, startup companies start every year. And I don't know the percentage.

Thousands.

Thousands.

Yeah, there's thousands and thousands, and the pandemic made even more. More and more startups every time. Well, that's good. Yeah.

I know. And that's where, like, I've done it and people will, and they might continue. I expect them to continue to call you crazy, me crazy, people crazy, you know, when they go after these ideas. But just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean you can't do it. On the flip side, just because it's been done before doesn't mean that you doing it won't somehow add value to you or to the world. Everyone has, you know, learned a language to an extent— sign language, English, Spanish, you know, whatever it is. We've all done that. But you need some of these things to just keep moving. And if you, you know, mix a number of them, you really can go anywhere. And so what I've done A big thing, right, is STEM, is engineering, and then sports. And so I've kind of meshed them, but it, it didn't always look like a coherent thing. That's what you need to do. You need to plug in the gaps. And when someone asks you how they relate, that's where you, you need to be good at doing that. And it takes some time to craft that skill. But for example, I got my degree in materials engineering and I liked to go to the gym, you know, and then it started growing and I started competing and I started doing materials engineering. You know, I was a junior senior. I had chosen materials instead of just general engineering. People still were like, you know, there's, there's not a thing. How are you meshing the two? You can't really get a degree in both of them. And so it kept going. And then I started doing some Sports psychology or sports, sports exercise, exercise science research and sports psychology research. And it just all kind of meshed, you know, and I was doing that and people were like, well, that's not engineering research. They're not going to hire you. It doesn't matter largely, right? So I got my interview or a couple interviews, you know, and the job I ended up accepting You know, my manager at the time and the one who interviewed me, his first question when I walked past, you know, the interview booth at college was, you know, I saw your resume that you put on the table because I just was dropping them off. And there is value in just dropping them off. He was like, I saw you lift weights. Could you tell me about it? Well, I don't pass up that question ever, you know, and so that's where— What he saw in someone who lifts weights, you know, or an athlete of any kind, is there is that dedication and there's the determination and there's the passion. And so if you're passionate about the job, you know, he's already seen the passion for the sports. And if someone can see where you go and something you love, again, it could be music, it could be dance, it could be whatever. But if someone sees how far you go with that, I mean, it could be woodworking and starting, you know, at your very own at-home. shop and not having the resources or the tools. You don't need fancy stuff. They say, you know, with just the basics, you really show, you know, the real science or the real, you know, the heart of it, what it's made of. If you can do it with nothing, just imagine what you could do with everything. And so I got that interview, I got that offer, I accepted that position, and that's where, again, It doesn't have to be engineering or STEM-related. Whatever your purpose or your goal is, it can be just your passion. And that's what people really want to see, I think. You just love talking to people who are excited about something. And when you work with people who are just— when they're not excited, you don't want to work with them. It doesn't matter if it's a little thing or a big thing. To an extent, you know, you want to be happy. And so I think those are, you know, what we pull together, you know, bringing it back to this teamwork, communication, and leadership. That's where you need to show your leadership skills through whatever it is that you do that you love. What you love, you're going to be a leader at, and then kind of hone it. And that's where it takes time. And I would say just get started. Just create the LinkedIn, just start talking to people. Eventually, you know, people tell me like, oh, you make it sound so effortless. I've said the same thing over and over. It's the same with, for example, I've only been speaking Spanish for 2 years. People say, oh, you speak Spanish so well. And like, I talked to you for a minute. I've had 1-minute conversations in Spanish a lot. There's only so much to say to introduce yourself. I've said the same words so many times.

Right.

And that's, that's what you need to do and just tweak it a bit and people will feel— and, and you should, but personalize it. And it doesn't take much once you've done it enough. And, you know, you've kind of got little formulas. Okay, this person's in academia. This person is also a woman who lifts weights, you know, and then you've almost got these little formulas. Um, but it's the same thing. Anyone who's in a sport, They don't have to lift weights. They don't have to know anything about it. We've got so much in common if they work out. So we could talk about health and fitness and personal records or personal bests. Everyone has that. You know, they probably know something about eating healthy, being sore, taking a rest day. All that stuff translates to the working world, right? You need to rest. You need to, you know, push yourself and then also have days where you just show up. You do nothing else but just showing up.

And so there's also something that, that— because we talked about this whole working out and like the physical aspects and a job, there's this whole portion of where if you work on one thing for too long and you get stuck, it's like— I think it's the Einstein, Einstein example of he would make his breakthroughs in physics after he went and played his violin. which he was also really good at. And that having multiple things allows you to pull your mind off of it and then go back and you can love something, but you can also get to the point where you hate it because you're frustrated at it and you need to go do something else. So I would imagine that, that it's pretty, pretty beneficial to maybe have a frustrating job and then go do some weightlifting and do something completely else that you're really good at too and do that really well and then be able to go back the next And then, like you said, it keeps you happier. It makes you— you can enjoy— you can enjoy your main job, then people will like you, you can communicate. It just makes everything better.

Yes. And what you said about, you know, you get, uh, fed up or you're struggling, right? You're working so hard, you need a break or something. That's another thing. A lot of these people who um, are really successful, you know, or to get there, you have to almost do the same thing over and over repetitively, and you will to an extent get bored of it, right? And that's where—

Yes.

You need to be good at doing stuff that's, that's boring. You need to be able to step away from it. But on the flip side, I go to the same gym, I do the same Lifts to an extent, right? I mean, I wear the same clothes, I talk to the same people, um, and all this stuff. But I mean, that's almost what it takes. It's like practice of anything. You need to repetitively do it to get better. And that's where, you know, they come in. Some of the best ways to do that are to make it a habit. And that's where then it stops becoming energy you're exerting. It's just something you're going to do. And you can make these habits out of anything, from going to the gym to eating healthy to reading your Bible to just showing up to work or showing up somewhere, putting in 5 minutes reading books at night, any of that stuff. And so that's where, you know, majority of the day we're doing unconscious stuff. And you want to have all the unconscious stuff you do Not the stuff that requires brain focus. And that's where then when you, when you want your great breakthroughs, that's when you sit down and you just pour all your heart and energy, you know, in your mind into an hour session, a 2-hour session, and you just, um, are able to keep doing that because you're not getting exhausted everywhere else. And those are where these breakthroughs come through, right? And that's where we get so many people though, they're exerting so much energy, you You know, their brain is just flashing from thought to thought. There's so many things, just like looking at the screen right now. And so we don't want to waste our energy on that. What I think is really tough— I guess it was tough for me coming out of school. You go from like one monitor to 2 monitors, you're in the office. If you have never had this, you know, MS Microsoft Teams or whatever, where people are just pinging you like crazy, or you're supporting production, you know, you're just not used to it. And so that's where learning to kind of shut down and really focus on what's important anywhere— work, but also at home. And that's where I try to put the most important things at the top. What, what are your goals and how are we going to achieve them? From daily goals to monthly to yearly goals. Um, and I've been told, you know, dreams are great, but goals get it done. You can have a dream, but if you don't have a goal in place or step-by-step goals, you know, it just doesn't happen.

And so it's hard to get the dream if you don't, that's for sure, put in the work.

Yes.

And you— we talked about a little bit before, uh, one of the things that you do, you have— you've mentored some for helping, helping people get Figure all this stuff out. And the whole women in STEM and minorities and helping to— this is something that you've seen help people to overcome an unfortunate discrepancy between the quote-unquote average person and many minorities, especially in STEM and things like that. How can you speak to that a little bit?

Yeah, so I think people can be a minority in anything, you know. I think we think of the workplace, we think of, you know, gender and race a lot, stuff like that. But there's age, you know, and there's just like talents. You could be really weak in some talent, you know, and you, and you show up to an event and you could be a minority in that field or area. And so some of the big things to get past, you know, are just knowing that depending what it is, might not— you might be a minority, but you might, not in all cases, but you might be able to work to get out of being the minority. And a large thing is, you know, it could just be your community. And so like in the realm of women in STEM, women are a minority. But in a particular area, if you funnel enough women around you, you know enough, you meet enough, you connect with enough, you're going to feel a bit more like you're not actually a minority. Now, that doesn't downplay that women are a minority, but that's where if you can put yourself in the environment and then eventually kind of grow it. So if you have a number of example, women in STEM, we can reach out to more women in STEM. We can show a number of younger girls, hey, like, there are a lot of us here, but we need even more. And it's, you know, kind of tough for people to realize that they can change their whole outlook sometimes just with their, you know, local everyday life. And so I think a tough part is people get in these ruts. I'm a minority, or I'm not good at it, or I wasn't born a specific way. People will say like, I wasn't born smart, or I was born an introvert, or that's just who I am. And I think that's where changing that— there are a few things where we are born a certain way and we can't change it, but there are a lot of things where people will say like, I'm born that way. And you can change those statements. So like, I'm just an introvert and that's just how I am. And so I think you might be an introvert, but you're using it, or you could be using it to not network. And that's where what it is, is, you know, you don't want to network. How can we change that? Because, you know, if you've identified something that you want or, you know, will be beneficial, can we change it? So I used to be like, oh, like, I'm just not someone who can eat healthy. Like, I don't know why. It just— like, I'm always going— it's just so tough. Like, I must just have one of those body types. And some people do have, you know, stuff. But it wasn't that. It was all these little things. I was surrounding myself with people who weren't doing that. I wasn't seeing that. I wasn't feeding myself with good stuff. I was buying crap at the grocery store. I was leaving the crap on the counters. And so kind of that's what I try to say or teach to a lot of my mentees or the people in these sessions that I give is you can kind of change your surroundings. I mean, you can change the way you think largely, all of that stuff. And so with that, like, know your inherent value, know what doesn't change, and a few things won't change. And you need to know what those are and then fight for them because different people will always give you different opinions. But you need to come back to who you are, you know, and, and why you're here and what you're doing it. And so same thing with your habits. The way you stick to habits is you make it a personal personality thing. I want to be a healthier person. I'm going to be a healthier person. Therefore, I'm going to go to the gym once a week. Therefore, this is why I'm doing it. So when you reach for the potato chips, you don't say like, oh no, like, I don't like potato chips or something. You have to say something personal like, oh, I'm not the kind of person who eats potato chips because I want to be healthy. I'm the kind of person who's going to be healthy. It has to be a a personal thing, um, like a personality change or, or a, a mindset change. Otherwise, you don't identify it as you. It's still just, you know, something out there. And so a lot of women, especially a lot of the people that I've worked with, you know, they just come and it's a mixture of a lack of confidence and they just don't think They can do it. So I've had a lot of, you know, I'm not getting any interviews, I don't know where to start. I, you know, I have an interview, I don't know how to negotiate, should I negotiate? I don't even know how much I'm worth, you know, or what to ask for, you know. And then there's, there's those people, and then there's a number of them who are just awesome, you know. I also like meet a lot of these awesome people And they just, I think, in my opinion, kind of settle. It's like, hey, that's great, but ask for the next thing. And again, we're not taught that in school, but if you're, you know, in a job or something, you find something great, ask for your manager to pay for it. Is it a conference? Is it something that's going to help your day-to-day output? You know, whatever little thing it is, like, We asked for safety goggle, like, cleaners because our goggles were just steaming up. We spent all the time cleaning them, you know, while we were in the lab. And so, like, again, something little, but our manager paid for everyone to have one of these cleaners. But on the flip side, I wanted to learn Spanish. I asked for it before I started work. You know, there's a lot of people who just won't Ask. And there's a lot of people, when asked for, you know, do you want to do this new opportunity, take this new chance, they won't do it. They think like— and I get the same comment— that's a big thing. I don't know if I'm ready for it. I don't know if I know enough. You know, Becky over there would be great at it. And it's like, they didn't ask Becky. Like, she would be great. They asked you. They want you. I was on a call yesterday You know, with people who are learning English or learning Spanish. So I'm learning Spanish, and a woman mentioned, you know, she had an interview. She'd made it through 2 rounds. This was the 3rd and final round, and she goes, I just don't think they want me. I don't know what to say. I don't think my English is good enough. I had talked to her for 45 minutes. Like, her English was good, great, acceptable. I understood everything she said. Just like I make English mistakes, she made a couple. It didn't deter anything.

We all make those.

She thought they didn't want her, and, and that's so tough to get the point across to people. If you've been asked, if you've made it through multiple rounds of interviews, they want you. They're not going to cross you out for a little thing. They're not going to reject you. They want to know what brings you from where you're at above the other candidates, right? And that's where I try to tell people, you need to find that thing that's unique. You need to take that risk. You need to do whatever it is. They're not looking for a reason to weed you out. They're looking for the one person to pull up above the rest, and there's no reason that can't be you. And so that's the toughest thing to hear is these people who Again, that, that's a personal thing, right? I don't think they want me. That's a personal thing, going back to the habits and everything. It's not a you thing. Or when people are simply like, I'm ashamed, or, you know, I have shame. That's, again, it's against you. It's saying that like you are bad, not that you did something bad, but that you are bad. And we need to start reframing it like, if they don't hire you, you know, and you get rejected, which I've got rejected a ton, it's not because you're unworthy or you're unvaluable. It's because a number of different things. There was someone whose qualifications or backgrounds more aligned. It's all this stuff. But especially women struggle with that and they think it's a them thing. And it's the same thing a lot of women Whose partners break up with them, you know, or leave them or whatever, they say it's so tough because women turn it and say that they're not good enough. If they themselves as a human being was good enough, that person would have stayed, you know, the person would have committed to them, not cheated, whatever it was. And that's largely not true, right? It's not who you are that has, has done anything. It's these Other aspects that we need to, you know, learn. I think women need to learn how to talk about, you know, these qualities that they have or these backgrounds, these stories. I'd say find a couple stories. And then again, learn how to swirl them in different ways. So I've got like a weightlifting story leading with some general stuff, and I've got a story, and depending who wants to hear about it, it might be, you know, how I made it to nationals. Ooh, you know, stuff like that. And it might be like how I failed the, the lift, right? And it might be how that didn't matter because in the end I won, right? And so the point is like, if you work every day, it doesn't matter if you have one off day or one off lift, the total is going to be up. But it's still one story. It's just something that I know really well, and you can craft it in a different way. And that's when, you know, it just becomes easier. You don't have to know everything. It's just a few things.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, this, this is great. And I think it's important for people to be— think about all these things, especially students and people entering a field or a new field, right? A new field that they haven't been in, that everyone has the imposter syndrome. syndrome of, oh, I'm not good enough, I, I really shouldn't be here. I think we all feel that at some point, except for— I'm sure there's some small percentage of really weird people that are 100% confident all the time. But for the rest of the rest of us, um, we definitely— this is, this is good. And, and it's great you've been speaking and sharing this with people. So hopefully this, this funding allows you to keep doing that and And helping more, more people figure, figure it out. And yeah, learn these soft skills that are even more— you said we're remote working more, so it's even more important that we figure out how to have these through Zoom calls and every other medium that we use now. So yeah, this has been, this has been really great. I appreciate you being here. It's been, been great to have you. Share. And, uh, for anyone watching, listening, is there a place that they can go if they're interested in seeing what you're doing or, or being a part of one of these trainings?

Yeah, so I'd say the big thing is LinkedIn. I'm on there, um, a good deal. It's just Amy Kerr. There's no other Amy Kerr, or hardly any Kerrs that I've found on there besides my sister. So LinkedIn, and then my email is the big one. It's akurr2@gmail.com. Those are the 2 main ones. I don't do a lot of social media largely because that was just pulling me in so many different directions from the engineering focus. And so those 2 are great. I am working on creating a website which will hopefully be up in about a month or so. or published, and so that would be another way. But with respect to these trainings, if reaching out to me doesn't work or you forget my name or something, the programs are called Tau Beta Pi, is the National Engineering Honor Society, and on there our title, or what you can Google, is Engineering Futures facilitators, tell them to apply, and then you can reach out. There's an email, there's some explanations to the sessions, how long they are, and they are customizable and stuff like that. And so we do a lot for collegiate students, but we are largely branching out, and we have been a lot with the pandemic. So we're doing a lot of industry talks now. You know, going all the way from CEO level down to entry level. Again, this is the kind of material that people pay or companies pay thousands for, and the benefit of it is the National Science Foundation has partnered up with a number of organizations. Talbot Apply is one of them to create what they're calling Cyber Ambassadors, which is kind of leading— it's this group that they're funding to go talk to STEM professionals, CI professionals, engineers, all the way from, you know, collegiate students up through people with 20, 30, 40 years experience. And it's all open source, so it's all free content. What we present, what we show you, you know, whatever stories and stuff like that, tidbits you learn, you can use it, you can share it. None of it is locked down. It is, you know, funded by tax dollars to an extent. You pay it into the government and then, you know, so much money goes to the National Science Foundation to continue to improve our nation's engineering and STEM. And so there is a benefit there, you know, if you're looking to do that. So those are the big ones. If the Society of Women Engineers— is of interest, you know, and you want to connect with that or with me through that, we've got a lot of collegiate as well as professional people involved with it. And so that's just going to be Society of Women Engineers in Google, or SWE is their acronym. You'll see to get involved or become mentors through that. So yeah, reach out. Look forward to hearing from you. Um, thank you so much, Ian. It's been great.

Yeah, perfect. Thank you so much.