Interview with Isabel Aagaard of LastObject on How She Invented the Idea for the Company

Hello everyone, welcome to this episode of Conscious Design. I'm Ian Peterman, your host and also author of the Conscious Design book, and I'm really excited to have here Isabelle, co-founder and designer at Last Object, a company working to reduce the waste from our single-use products that we like to have everywhere. So welcome to the show.

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, so tell us a little bit about your story and how, how you got started. What was, what was your guys' impetus to start Last Object?

Um, well, I started with my 2 co-founders, and they're also designers as, as I am. And I think it's not like, oh my God, and then I saw this thing and then suddenly we like revolutionize something. It was like an easy, like we were doing different things at the time. It's 3 years ago now. And I was working in hospitals. They were doing a lot of like furniture design. And we actually just had like an office space together. One of them is my brother. That's how I kind of like intertwined. And we really, it came quite naturally. We wanted to do something with a purpose. if we did go into doing something, and it's not like it's not purposeful to design, but it's just we wanted to do something that was good for Mother Earth in the scheme of really wanting to design our way through problems. And this is where we kind of felt that there was— we felt that it was just like a kind of light bulb thing when we saw single use and when we not just like saw it but saw it in our own daily lives. And it was actually just a notion, like what would— if we had to do something, it really had to have a huge impact. And when we stumbled across the research and everything that we know about production and as designers, and we just like found this like holy grail of just a lot of trash being generated and shipped and packaged and being used once and thrown out. And it was like, kind of became like crazy. And I'm not saying that we're going to make like toilet paper reusable like next year, but there are a lot of single-use items that we use every day that just don't have, that don't need, we don't need to use it as a single use. We can design our way through it and make it a convenient alternative to this by making reusables. So, so that was— but it was, it was a few weeks and it was like kind of a merge of everything. And then, and then we just kind of dug into it and tried and the Q-tip was weirdly enough the first one we kind of solved material-wise and design-wise. And that was really— there's no like hocus pocus. We just had a list of single-use items we wanted to try to make.

Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. And so it's not a single light bulb moment, which I think is good to mention because some there's a lot of focus on, well, there was a light bulb moment and instantaneously we knew exactly what to do. And it doesn't always happen that way. And as designers, we know that doesn't happen that way most of the time. It's a process of, well, let's think about this. We want to do something. And then a few weeks later, some more conversation and some more thinking. And then eventually you come up with a list of things, you know, like you guys did, a list of Well, we want to— here's some things we could tackle. And, you know, we, as a designer, you're always thinking about solutions. So it's never, it's never a just sit down here, I designed it, here you go, it's done process. So I appreciate you mentioning that as a designer for, for everyone else who's listening to also realize that. And so you guys started, you guys started with the Q-tip, right? And, and launched that. Talk a little bit about that process of, of, you know, you created the design, you created a solution as a designer, you know, you know it's going to work, right, on, on that technical level. What was that? What was the process after that? And how, how did it go in, in kind of validating and, and, you know, getting the success basically of people also identifying with, hey, I could use that product. That sounds better than throwing away what I'm already using.

Yeah, yeah. No, there was a huge process of trying to market, trying to figure out like, how do we position ourselves? How do we want to talk about this? How do we frame it? And actually, we did multiple different things. But some of the things that Well, when I look back at now, which were really successful and good decisions, there's also a lot of bad decisions. But some of the good decisions were we did a Kickstarter and this helped us to kind of test things out and to talk about it. And like, not only, but just also for ourselves, like making a page, trying to explain this product with very few words, making a video, trying to like be engaging and meeting people eye level without being like, oh my God, we have this amazing design and this is just absolutely amazing, amazing.

Right.

We had to really be like, okay, we have a problem and this is a solution. How do we first of all show people that this is a problem and how do we also show that this can be a solution? And then we did a lot of ads on Facebook and did quite a lot of lead generation up to the Kickstarter. And this is also a way that we could, with a very simple page, A/B test it. So we would use different, like every 24 hours we would change something out. And because we had so many leads going through, so we could kind of be like, okay, we're gonna show this color compared to this color. We're gonna show the problem first and then the solution. No, we should choose the solution and then the problem. So we're doing like all these like little tests and it gave us such huge insight to how to actually talk about this.

Yeah.

and how to market it. And all of these learnings in the weeks up to our Kickstarter kind of paved the way to how we created that page. And then I would also say this was kind of like not something I had kind of calculated into it, but a lot of people, especially on Facebook, were like, that's disgusting. And I think that because people were talking about, people commenting, people were sharing, not always because they thought this was an absolutely amazing design or solution, because they thought this was so disgusting that somebody had made a Q-tip reusable. I was like, oh my God, people. So, and that actually made us spike a bit because it was shared a lot and it was commented a lot. And people were actually also, we, in the beginning, we were We're like, what do you mean? And we're commenting back, but then this is— no, this is hygienic because of this and this and this. And they were like answering all these questions. So suddenly you saw like interaction between people on our products. And it was— that was quite amazing, but it also made the whole thing blow up a bit.

Right. Well, that's awesome. I guess one of the, one of the times when, you know, bad press is, is actually, actually useful. Um, and it's great that you were, you were having the conversation happening between people. So it also showed that there were people that are really, you know, for it and really saw what you guys were seeing. So that's also good, right, to, to be able to confirm and know that there's people out there Defending your product basically and saying, no, it is a good idea, uh, I like it. And so that's, that's kind of a unique position, right, to be in the middle of a conversation like that. But, but good, but good, good feedback.

Yeah.

Um, you know, when, when you guys got— so you guys did that launch, it was successful, you are getting, you know, more and more into the market.

What—

you have your list, right, of products. So what did you— how did you go about deciding, okay, well, we have success, what are we going to tackle next? Like, what, what do you guys go through in order to, you know, really to figure that out? Or is it just you have a list somewhere and it's in random order and you just pick it off?

Um, I think, I think we, uh, we have like, uh, darlings in between us. So for example, I was very much into the menstrual pad that we did. So that was something that I kind of— and also Cole, one of my— not my brother, but our partner. And we were very keen on getting this product to market. So I think that sometimes it was— that's what drives it. But often we look at 2 variables. mostly, and that is how much of an impact is it? So for example, straws, that has an impact, but toilet paper has a bigger impact, you know, because this is something that everybody uses. And then you can look at Q-tips. Okay, that's so small, but a lot of people use it, and it's often with like plastic stems, and they go through the filtration. So there's a whole different There's a reason why that is actually a really big issue. And you see this with all the different single-use items that we have today is that there are some that are easy changes and then there are some that are harder changes. And then you have something that may— and there's everything. Like some of the harder changes can sometimes be some of like the maybe least important. ones if you look at the environment and then vice versa. So it's not black and white. We just really want to tackle a problem that is a huge issue. And then we want to tackle a problem that's not, you know, landing on the moon. So it's really being like in between those two and then trying to figure out like where should we put our energy.

Got it. And when you guys are looking at impact, right, of a product, so you mentioned some things like, you know, looking at the Q-tip, you know, there's not— they're small, right? We all know that they're pretty small, but they have plastic and they're highly, you know, you use it once, you throw it away. We use a lot of them, right? So it's a very large volume. What are the kinds of impacts that you guys are— when you're doing that and you're thinking through it, what are the ones that you're looking for? Is it The plastic components? Is it, you know, is there anything else that you guys are really looking at that you guys, you know, as, as a team are saying, these are huge impact points that we specifically are, are really focusing on, on dealing with?

Yes, um, we do, we do look a lot at— when we, when we look at these products, we do look on how many times you use, like, how often is it like a very frequent thing that we have in our everyday life? then we know that it is something that is probably going to be high on the list. So that's like a no-brainer. So something that we use daily, weekly, but it can't be like something you use once a month because that doesn't have that accumulation issue, which is like kind of these like silent problems that we have environmentally. So that's what we look at. And then when we then like have— when we take everything that we like use a lot, throughout. Then we can look at water consumption in production. We can look at how we discard of it, so the waste, but also landfill. For example, if it's something like cotton, like cotton rounds, cotton is actually very expensive water-wise to produce, but it's also really expensive for— not expensive, but bad for the environment. It takes a lot of land to actually grow a lot of cotton.

Right.

So there are so many different like factorials. There's also There's also an issue sometimes with transportation. Something is really heavy, something is big, something is packaged a lot of times. And pads, for example, they're not just packaged in a package, they're like individually packaged in plastic, a sanitary pad. And so this, like, this is a huge issue not only in the product itself, but it's also a huge issue in In the packaging of— in the package of the package of the package. Like, it's extreme how much plastic is produced around it.

It makes it heavier, which makes it worse to ship, and then you have to throw it away too, which is not— that stacks very quickly once you start layering the packaging on.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, well, that's good. So you guys are looking at not just And this is something I talk to people when I work with clients and stuff is, well, there's the impact of the product itself, which is great. Like, we're— I feel like the consumer these days is, is far more aware of that. It's, it's far more aware. And now people are starting to be aware more of what you're talking about. Well, the amount of water used to grow the cotton plant to create the cotton used in the cotton ball Yeah, the cotton ball technically, you know, it's, it's cotton, so we can't be too mad at it, but the process of making it is super water intensive, or, you know, not— it's more detrimental to the environment and things like that. And so it's great to see you guys are looking at those impacts. What are you seeing, you know, when, when you have customers and you're— you're obviously— you guys are looking through all of this. Are there— do you see it? trend in consumers caring about those things too? Is that something that you're, you're having those dialogues and you're really kind of diving into that conversation, or is it still more focused on, well, you're just not throwing it away and that's kind of the end still?

I think it sometimes it's easier to explain a problem by being like, look how much this is compared to this. So like, look at 1,000 cotton swaps and then look at this one product. Like sometimes that's an easier discussion to have, but I do feel that people are more and more open and especially the amazing community that's kind of like been or is creating itself in sustainability is asking a lot of really valid questions and is, you know, taking greenwashing into consideration when they do look at different products. So they are they are involving themselves in understanding it. And even like, I work 24/7 in a sustainable company, we're doing sustainable reports, we know everything about lifecycle analysis, all these different things that you can— that we can use to validate our products. And still, I am confused sometimes. I think that it is such a complex, like sustainability in itself, the It's just, it's so hard for me to even grasp a lot of the things that are coming in and things are changing too. Materials sometimes like, oh, in this context it's bad, in this context it's good. It's so hard to know where to actually wear it, where you are doing good and where you're doing not, I think. So in that sense, I'm so happy that yes, and yes, we are diving into the discussion and we're also getting better and better to explain it. And you can't just come and say, oh, we're 97% better footprint-wise. I don't think that people really— what does that mean? Or like, oh, we have this less CO2 emissions. You know, it's everything is like, what is one CO2 emission? What is 2? Like, it's not— yeah, it's not like— that's not how we as humans can also understand these different factors. I think water actually is something that I felt is a really nice way of explaining a lot of the stuff because producing a product— I remember there were these t-shirts at one point where they would write like, this t-shirt took like 3,000 liters to create or something.

Right, yeah, yeah, I remember those.

Yeah, and it was like a really— but that was the first time where I was like, oh, Oh wait, like it's not just the t-shirts you— oh, okay, wait, wait, wait. So, and then you look at meat industry and then they were like, okay, wow, okay, I'm not even gonna get into that. So I think that that's like a really nice measuring thing, water, because it's something like a liter of water is something we understand.

Yeah, I think, I think that's a really good point because there is like, we talk about carbon footprint, right? But like you said, well, what is What is one carbon footprint? What does that actually mean? And I even had a— I've had a conversation with someone that was trying to figure out, well, how do we track that? Like, how do we— what would it take for you to, like, have your smartphone or your smartwatch tell you when you've achieved— when you've output a carbon footprint? Like, what— how do we even measure that? For on the individual level, and then translate it into a way that makes sense where you can go, oh, well, I'll choose not to do that because that will be more like— outside of driving your car more efficiently, there's, there's very few things that have that easy, like, one-to-one. If I choose the apple, it's this, and if I choose the orange, it's this. And that's very ambiguous, we'll call it. But I love, I love you pointing out the water park because that is something that People, we all know what a gallon of water is. We all know how much water we drink. It's, it's so much more relatable. So it's great, you know, you're pointing that out because it is so important to be able to tell your story. And so, and you guys figuring out how, how to tell your story, you know, water is a component, but is there, is there anything else that you guys have, have kind of zeroed on as like How do you tell the story of not just the product, right? But like the t-shirt is like X number of leaders to make this t-shirt. It's not just about the t-shirt, it's about all the stuff before the t-shirt. So what are other things that you guys are finding that work that allow you to really communicate that in a way that's making sense? And I know it's all— it's— I'm confused by it as well. And I also, I work in it daily. Um, so, but what are you, what are you guys finding that's useful, that's more connecting with people and being able to explain that?

I think we're also just tapping into this because I think it is a bit— I think that— I think it's difficult. What has been most successful for us is definitely doing like the one-to-one. So being like, this packet of tissues replaces 3,100 single-use tissues and its packaging and its shipping and it's, you know, and I think that that kind of reflects really well because that's something that's better to grasp. It's like a one-to-one. It's like, oh, this product and then, okay, so if I use this 30 times, then I've actually already now I'm in zero, you know. I think that people like zero waste is not zero waste, but it is, you know, we're trying to get as close to zero as possible.

Right.

So I think that helps a lot. And yeah, water is just something new that I'm trying out because I feel like sometimes, especially when we're working in the cotton industry, it's just absolutely crazy. And I've also felt that going into, for example, we also were talking a lot about the ocean. And we're doing a lot of initiatives to clean out the ocean. I think that using numbers like, for example, a kilo or 2 pounds of plastic from the ocean, that's also graspable. Okay, okay, I would like to take that out of the ocean. Like, that's a lot. That's something like I would be able to carry in my arms. Like, okay.

Right.

So I think that things like that, something that you can put down. I don't think that numbers like 1 And we also use that, but, but it's, it's just, it's hard, harder to grasp.

Yeah, yeah, 1 billion anything is, um, it's hard to just, hard to grasp. What, what does that really, what does that really mean? I think we all stopped counting at like 1,000 anyway, so after that it just gets harder and harder to count.

Exactly.

Oh, so as you're, as you're You guys are launching more products, you're working on more products. You know, what, what is kind of your long-term goals besides, you know, what are you guys looking at long-term as the impact you guys are wanting to make in the world?

Oh, okay. I think this is— I, I won't say— yeah, I want— this is big, and I won't take, uh, anybody— like, I, I won't put everybody in my company down in this, um, My— and this is gonna sound evil— my real dream is to completely make single-use products extinct. Like, just take them down. I don't know how to say this in a nice way. I'm really trying to. I really, really, I really hope that we can see that a production will stop. Because, for example, let's go back to the Q-tip, our first product. The Q-tip industry, single-use industry, is going up by 3% every year. And we're already at like 5 million. Now I'm using all those numbers. 5 million a year of Q-tips are produced single-use. And I would just, I wish that sometimes at some point we'll see it being 2%, 1%, 0%. Minus. And then it gets fun because now we're actually making a difference. This is going to take some time and it's in different categories and we're going into different types. And I'm not going to make a huge war against Kleenex. I would want to, but I'm not. But some—

Disclaimer.

Disclaimer. Yeah. Please don't listen in. I really, really hope That we can remove this industry completely.

Well, I think, I mean, you started with this sounds evil, but I don't think it sounds evil at all. I think that's a great, a great mission. And I think that you, hopefully other companies will join you. And that would be my, that would be my hope is that there's other, because there's so many, there's so many single-use products. Out there, and it's I think it's great you guys are tackling the bathroom, right? Is is a space that we just haven't most of us don't think about. We just go in, we use stuff, and we we exit, and we don't really think about those products too much. I mean, the makeup world and the cosmetics world has has you know gotten its its spotlight a little bit. You know, they're they're figuring out how to make. Better cosmetics now. But that's kind of been the extent of really diving into what happens with all the bathroom products, which there's a lot, there's a lot of them that we, we put into a bathroom. So I think it's great you guys are focusing in on it. Do you have— are there other single-use areas that are kind of like next on list? Because I feel like bathroom is like this huge Huge kind of treasure trove, right? You could, you could spend years going through and, and swapping those out. But are there, are there other areas that, um, you guys are even looking at or thinking about that you also are like, that's also a treasure trove of single use that, you know, maybe one day, maybe, maybe sooner, you guys are starting to think about? Outside of the bathroom?

I think we have a few years left in the bathroom.

Easily.

Easily. And so I'm kind of— but I do think that we can work around— we've actually talked a lot about the kitchen. And there are some things that would be fun to work on. I think that there are also other companies that are in, for example, I'm never going to make a straw. Like, I think there's so many great solutions to replacing them. There are a lot of them. There are a lot of them. So, and that's great, that's awesome. And so there are some areas that I kind of feel like it's— people have alternatives here, that's fine. And then there are areas, like for example in the baby department, I feel like there are a lot of— and that's also kind of in the bathroom, can be, and also a little bit outside.

Babies are its whole own collection of single-use products out there. It's crazy how many.

Exactly.

And you were—

it's so crazy. And there are also a lot of companies that are trying to make good in this area too, which is really interesting. But I just feel like if I can solve some of the things for mothers in the beginning of, or just the first 5 years of when you have a kid, then I have succeeded in life because being able to give them an alternative that they actually have energy to actually, you know, one thing is when you're in your 20s and you're like, okay, I'll use a new makeup stick. Okay, wow. Okay. Reusable rounds. Let me try it out. But if you can get a mom for 2 little kids to change a habit that's actually beneficial for her and is not stressing her down, I think that's like, okay, that's a really good design then. Like, then you've really hit the nail on that in conveniency and in usefulness. So I think there are a lot of things in the baby department and in that area, like, just also just framing around it that I would love to try to just make some kind of difference. But yeah, I feel like bathroom department, yeah. I think we have a couple of years. Ask me in 5 years, then I'm probably gonna be like, yes, listen.

If we find— we did 80% of the bathroom in 5 years. We're, we're gonna start looking out outside of it now. Yeah, I, I think, yeah, baby products is huge. And yeah, the bathroom is huge. Those are, those are massive areas, uh, that That need more help, that they need you guys to make more products for. Um, so kind of just to, to wrap up, you know, you, you guys have, have your product list, you're working through it. You know, what— are there any immediate things that you guys are, are doing with these products that people don't know as much about, or you're working on trying to, to Get out there?

Right now?

Yeah.

Right now, actually, we just launched like half a year ago a menstrual pad. And this is kind of a very different area for us to be in. So in that sense, it's kind of like we've tried to open up a different dialogue and also cater to some other— like if For example, there's— I've found that actually there's a lot of taboo and shame around the menstrual cycle, even though it's like so normal. It's that everybody goes through it in so many years of your life.

I have girls that are becoming teenagers. So it's a whole thing that is odd. I mean, that's the best way to put it for me is it's just not— Yeah, it's taboo. It's not talked about. It's a very interesting space to launch a product into, I would imagine.

It is. And it's really rewarding. It's very exciting and interesting because I kind of felt like we went from earwax to boogers to— I kind of feel like we've looked at a lot of different fluids that coming out of our bodies that we're kind of trying to handle. And blood is just also one of those fluids. But because it is in this scheme and it is culturally just globally been put in this area of the house, in this corner, I think that that's something new, very new. Like, as I explained, my brother is one of our co-founders. He knows so much about my menstrual cycle now because we had to like talk it through and we had to like, yeah, to explain all these things. And I think that this is quite exciting because we are getting into a phase where these things are talked about, but it's also something very new for us to dig in at as a company. And I don't think that we realized it before we had launched.

Yeah, I can see that it would be hard Hard to imagine before you, before you get out there, right? And then see what, see, see what happens. Um, but it's, it applies to 50% of the population, roughly. I think it's actually slightly more than 50%. So it's, it's a very needed product area.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, in, in launching it and, and having these different dialogues, Is it— are you finding that, you know, obviously your core mission is sustainability and better environmental impact, but with products in this area, are you seeing it— is it as much about the sustainability side, or are you entering more of like education, social conversation than even sustainability?

Yes, I feel like we are, because now we're getting into necessities, you know, cleaning your ears or blowing your nose isn't necessarily a necessity. It's a point. It can be, it can be, but not for everybody.

Not generally.

And like removing your makeup, and I don't— I feel like we've been in a little bit of soft— I think there are 2 things to it, and one thing is, and we've been in this area with especially like the cotton round or reusable and yeah, to remove makeup and stuff, that there are a lot of things in the single-use department that's kind of made with like pesticides and with like everything that's white has been bleached with chlorine. You know, it's all these things that you kind of learn about when you like get into these. But working with, for example, something like menstruation, I think there's a field where we're talking about what's actually healthy for you. I would never use a tampon now ever in my life, but I've used plenty. So, you know, it's something that we have to— you educate yourself and you become educated also, and time moves. And so this is definitely something that we haven't seen with the other products in the same degree. And then something completely new is also the social responsibility that not everybody, a lot of, or not everybody, 50% of the world's population bleed, but not everybody has access to the necessity and necessary products to go through and have to stay home, kind of work. A lot of like, things or are fleeting from another country. Like, there's— I feel like now I've entered a space where we have to be responsibly— responsible socially too, and we have to give back to everybody who can't buy our products but should be able to use them.

Right. Well, that's interesting. You have the social stigma and that portion of the conversation. And then also you're talking about the necessity level, right? So that's really, you kind of broke into 2 new areas, completely new areas with one product, which would be a learning process to say the least. Are you on the necessity side? Does that change how you're You know, packaging, branding, your your how you talk about it. Is that does that change the type of conversation as well? Or is it just you know people need it more than than than earwax cleaning?

If it changes like for example on our packaging how we talk about the products.

Yeah.

I think I feel like in. I've had a want or I've had an urge and also they've let me do this in the company to talk a little bit more rough, I would say, or be a little bit more cheeky in every— and like things that are explained. For example, when I was doing updates on Kickstarter, I would do announcement where we're like, we're bloody excited, and it was just like an update on last pad. And I think that You know, being a little bit more provocative. I didn't write updates with the swab like, you know, clean out your ears. You know, there's not that humor in the same way. But with blood, I just did like a washing explanation. And first we had written like, you have to wash it at 30 degrees. And I was like, no, you should wash it at cold wash because blood sets. But you can wash it with your dark clothes or with your boyfriend's shirts. It's all about what your mood is in. It's changing the subject, being like, so we don't talk so, oh yeah, this is blood and you should wash it in this degrease. Like, no, no, no. Or yeah, degrease, but you can actually wash it with any clothes and making fun about it. Like, I actually only wash my menstrual Pads with my boyfriend's clothes. Of course I do. Like, that's of course.

Yeah, so yeah, so you're seeing, you're seeing a need for a different type of, different type of voice really, is changing, changing the structure not as, you know, point A, B, C, and having it more, more open conversation around it. Well, that's, that's awesome. That's Exciting for you to be able to expand and—

Exactly.

Open those dialogues. So I'm sure there's a lot of, a lot of conversations that are able to happen around it that you're able to help facilitate, and, and which is great. It's great, great to see someone's actually in that space, um, really applying those things. So, you know, to, to wrap it up, you know, this has been a really great conversation. I've enjoyed learning more about your guys' products and, and your journey. Is there any last, you know, thing that you'd want to share? Tip, you know, something you learned on the journey that you want people to be aware of?

Cheeky and simple, but I kind of feel I, I haven't been, you know, sustainable my whole life. It's not something that I'm, I'm grown up and, you know, fine sustainably kind of background, but I've also had to learn a lot of these things and exploring them, and that has just like been an amazing journey in itself. And it's been quite a few years also before Last Object. But what I just— the only thing I wanted to like tell anyone was, or if I could talk to myself 10 years ago, you know, take— do one thing at a time. but like do it properly because this is going to be a lot of fun.

Right.

And like it's also addicting. So every time you like start, if you start changing something up in your daily life so it becomes more sustainable, it just, it's a fun game to actually play. And so just like take one thing at a time. So really set, so you don't get overwhelmed because that's also awful. And then you can kind of, you can end up being like, fuck it, I'm not gonna do anything. And that's not, you know, that's not necessary. You can just take one thing at a time, changing it up, and then it will like trickle down. One of my friends did like a year and every month she changed out something new. And it could also be like stop drinking coffee, and then she just did it for a month. And then if she wanted to do it after that month, then she would hold on to it. And I think that was like such a great thing in habits in general. And a lot of the single use and a lot of the non-sustainable things that we do throughout our lives are just mainly habits.

Yeah, well, that's a, that's a great point. And that's, that's something I, I even talked to clients about is trying to bite off a huge, become instantly 100% sustainable. It's not sustainable to try to do that. It just doesn't, it doesn't work. You'll crash and burn and get tired of it and give up. So it's great, you know, and you're bringing, you know, personal life too. That's a great point. It's take one little step at a time. Just make, as you said, do it right. That's the important part is to put the effort in to do it correctly the first time. So awesome. Well, for anybody that wants to get ahold of you guys, buy your products, find you, what's the best places to do that?

You can, uh, yeah, you can go on lastobject.com, uh, and you would also— Instagram is a really good platform to, to keep updated on new releases. And we also have a newsletter and stuff, so a lot of different like things. But, um, but yeah, our Instagram is fun.

All right, you, you said you have a discount code for listeners.

Can you share that?

Yes.

I have a discount code for 15% on our website on lastobject.com, and it's CONSCIOUS15.

Fantastic. Well, that'll also be in the description. Awesome. Well, we'll make sure links are, links are in the description to all those things. And thank you so much for taking some time out of your evening to chat with me.

Of course, it was my pleasure.