Interview with Ryan Shindler of CoShape on Conscious Architecture

Hi, my name is Ian Peterman, host of the Conscious Design Podcast, and I'm here with Ryan Schindler, an architect, and he is also someone that's involved in conscious design but with a different viewpoint. So, Ryan, I'd love to talk about, you know, conscious design and your architect background, and I know you have big goals for what you want to do with that, with those skills and, and thought process. So elaborate.

Absolutely. Yeah, no, thank you, Ian, for having me. And, uh, yeah, no, my background kind of started, I would say, you know, as a, as a kid, I was always, you know, of course, a lot of architects building with Legos, right? And kind of playing and, and, you know, uh, just, just kind of, you know, getting my sense for space and proportion, whatever. And so that led me eventually to get my undergrad at Arizona State in architecture, bachelor's degree. And then I went on to the University of Arizona where I got my master's in architecture. And then I also got a second master's, Master of Science focusing on health in the built environment. And I really pursued that because I just— it really was something that always been interested in how design and space affects our health and well-being. And, um, and so this was more of a kind of taking a more research and, and theoretical approach to design and, and really quantifying, um, how every piece of, piece of design that we do, how does that make an impact? And, and so that's, that was kind of what, what sort of brought me to, yeah, uh, conscious design and, and, you know, we're really moving into a place where we're really looking at design and architecture from, especially in kind of my wheelhouse in architecture, we're looking at how does every variable play and how it impacts us. So that's kind of my biggest passion.

Yeah, and we talked about, last time we talked was how, you know, Not everybody's— we're still building houses out of sticks. We're still like, the design and manufacturing of buildings is still old, right? We're still using really old technology. And there's a huge disconnect, like industrial design to an engineered product. There's this huge disconnect between what, what you as an architect start to put together and You know, you put all that research into and then it changes and it morphs as, as it gets to the end and eventually is not, not really what you ended up designing. And, you know, there's something that in the product design world, I think you said it feels like we're a little ahead of you guys, but it's definitely something that I experience.

I would—

Sure.

Yeah, and, and, uh, no, this is something that, uh, definitely is, you know, a lot of architects don't talk about this, but especially in our industry, but you know, what I see in the future is that it's— we are all better as one, you know, when we, we have a unified vision and goal and we're working with suppliers and, you know, general contractors and, and the end user as well. Um, when everybody's aligned on the goal, you know, we can really start to create things that are so far beyond what we see today. What we see today, like 97% of the time, we're seeing value-engineered, you know, buildings that were built, designed to a budget, not the human experience. Not— they were designed from the outside in versus the inside out. What I really, um, was passionate about in my studies is, is one of my really key role models in, in architecture school, in my master's, always said, you know, design from the inside out, like you're inside the human body, and then work outward. And it's really about how can we, you know, think of all the disparate systems, and whether it's mechanical, HVAC, electrical, you know, the EUI, the energy use index of the entire building, the facade system, the layering, All of these things add up. And if— and right now we're not— the industry doesn't add those up. And, you know, then the end— really who pays is sort of the end user, the person who didn't even have a say in— they're the person who uses that building the most, but they, they were not a stakeholder or decision maker. And so, you know, uh, most buildings are, are not paying attention to that. And that's just kind of a byway of the process. that exists today. But yeah, I mean, I definitely see a ton of opportunity to streamline that, right? And I think it's really just about getting very clear on why, what, who we're building for, and why we're building for, and how do we quantify not just a line item on a spreadsheet to say that, hey, this building costs this much in 2021, you know. It's about what is the impact does it have today, tomorrow, You know, in, in 20 years from now is just as important. And the EUI and then the, in the sustainability factor, what's the life cycle of this whole thing? And, you know, maybe that could pay us. Actually, we could use future capital today and then who knows what'll happen in the future.

Right. Yeah. I think it's, you know, and product design, we, we definitely have things like human-centered design is something that's been Push forward. And it's, you know, not— it's not the only thing people do. It's not like we fully converted every— everybody thinks about it that way, but it's there. And, you know, it has a lot of benefits, right? It's looking at the human, like you said, going from the inside out, because we're all— we're all humans experiencing this. So if we don't do that, there's definitely going to be a disconnect between Oh, I'm here and I'm experiencing this, or, oh, I'm— and I enjoy it and I was part of it or thought about during the process. And this very, you know, just numbers version of, okay, well, architect did all this great work, interior designer figured out, you know, how to make it feel right, you know, all this together, coming together to make it look and feel and create an experience. Because it is. I mean, if 2020 taught us anything, our houses are an experience. We've been stuck in them for a year, right? So we've, we've all spent even more time indoors.

And yeah, I mean, the houses are not necessarily designed to be the most enjoyable. They're like, oh, well, here's a bedroom, here's a room for you to sleep in, there's a room to watch TV in, there's room to cook in.

Yeah.

And, and that's, you know, there's your stick house, the same that your great-grandparents had, just slightly bigger and has electrical in the walls, right? It has, has lighting and this ceiling. Like, that's, that's the upgrades, if—

Right.

It feels like.

You know, it, it really, yeah, that, that touches on, um, yeah, this idea that, you know, we're really, we're not that far off from you know, 100 years ago, we're still building the same way in a lot of ways. I mean, if we really take advantage of all the technology and all of the, you know, resources we have in, in 2021, I mean, it's, it's unbelievable what, what we can actually build. And so that's really what I'm excited to, um, you know, channel my, my, um, pathways and my passion into. Um, it's really that You know, if we really think of the building almost like an operating system, I envision buildings, and especially, yeah, you mentioned, you know, this era that we're living in, in the last year. We've been forced to realize what, what is shelter? What is shelter in place? What, what are 4 walls and a roof? Well, you know, as an architect who's just been so deeply passionate about this basically since I came out of the womb, it's like No, this doesn't have to be 4 walls and a roof. In fact, it shouldn't be. It should be so much more. We have to think about everything from the underlayment of the foundation to the macro scale of the superstructure and everything in between. Because when we do that, it's like we can really— there's just so much possibility of what we can do. We can think about buildings as a moving experience, a moving meditation. way that supports us in our daily lives and our endeavors. One of the things that I'm the most passionate about is the spaces that architects really traditionally, if you think about, kind of the most uninteresting to them are the spaces that we spend like 98% of our lives in, which is the workplace, essential institutions, healthcare. And if we really Start to think about, wow, what if it's beyond the workplace? What if it's— what if it turned the workday into an experience that I actually, like, want to go to and enjoy? And that, you know, if I'm going to spend 70— if I spend over 93% of my life at work, you know, maybe 70% of that's— or if I spend over 93% of our— we spend over 93% of our lives indoors. And if, let's say, a majority of that is maybe at the workplace, You know, the 9 to 5, 40 hours a week plus, you know, what if that changed and what impacts would that have on us? Those are the kind of questions that I, I pose and, and, you know, quantifying those and then showing how they can, you know, create a value proposition.

Right. Well, there's definitely, definitely something to be said about, you know, not being stuck in the same room. This was literally where People go crazy, right? We've proven, we've proven that works, right? Solitary confinement doesn't do good things to your mind. So thinking about how to make your house a better experience, or like you said, your workplace, like make, you know, yeah, it should be a place of work, but you know, we've talked, you and I have talked about, well, how do you make work more conducive to creativity? How do you make it enjoyable?

Absolutely.

We don't build our houses, and not all of our products either, we don't build them to create an experience that makes the use of them produce more than just, I used a screwdriver and I tightened a screw.

Right.

Well, that's, I mean, that's like the basic level we're at, right? The tool does X, we hope you're okay with holding it because we might have thought a little bit about the ergonomics.

Right.

But, you know, the door, the door opening is large enough for you to walk through without banging your head on it.

Yeah.

Outside of that, you know, the, the whole process of human-centered, like, what is the experience of it? And I think that's, that's something we've talked about, like conscious design.

You need to be conscious and aware of the whole experience, right?

Then you can create something better. Like, that's It's just, there's an extra layer level that you can go, yeah, we're here and it can be better.

It can be a lot better.

Absolutely. You know, I mean, you know, you think about something, for example, you know, you take, take kind of, you know, the product design or screwdriver example and make that into— so then what would I think as an architect sitting, let's say we're designing a workspace for someone and, you know, they're sitting at a desk. And, you know, they got 4 walls and a roof, but let's, let's just blow the doors off that for a second and say, let's start with the orientation of the monitor screen to the window wall. And what is the level of glare coming through the window? What's the, you know, visual transmittance of that glazing material? And is there a second skin facade that's, you know, changing its shape and form throughout the day based on you know, where the sun is in the sky, and how does that create an experience when you're sitting at your desk to something more, right? And that's— those are kind of the thought processes that I think are critical that we need to ask ourselves, you know, whether it's, you know, architecture or product design or any design. Yeah, conscious design is really about thinking about Just a multi, you know, so many different factors more than just what is a line in a sketch and on a piece of paper. You know, you're worth it. You know, when you really get into this, it's about, okay, this line I draw now, what impact does it have at second zero? What impact does it have a year from now? What impact does it have, you know, at the end of the building's lifecycle? And, and then, you know, not only on what is it, what's the impact, you know, the, you know, more traditionally, the, you know, we talked about sustainability and the planet. That's all critical.

Yeah.

What is, how much energy is that building, you know, using? Is it net zero? Is the glazing supporting, you know, the facade system so that it has a proper, you know, R-value and thermal insulation? But beyond that, what I think is most critical is, you know, and we talked about this, is kind of the human sustainability, right? The, the one, the piece that we often, so often forget, that's like, we don't take care of ourselves, then we can't, we can't expect to take care of the, of anything else really, right? Because when we, if we create a space, like when you say that it's so much more conducive to our creativity and health and productivity and well-being, when we're in that state, from that space, What happens next? That's the, that's the beautiful question. It's like, because I think what we make makes us. And so I think what we really need to critically focus on now is that, that we make environments for ourselves that take us to the next level. Because like we've, like we've just identified, we're still living in the early 20th century in terms of building technology. And You know, just the way the Industrial Revolution really revolutionized and streamlined in processes and, and assembly lines to, to make things, right? And then now we can slap them all together. But most, most people are asking the wrong questions still when they design a building. They're just saying, how much does this cost?

Or how many people does it fit?

Yeah, cost per square foot. Yeah, occupancy, you know, right? Those are just like Okay, you know, great questions to ask in 1950, but guess what? We're in 2021 and we have much more questions. Yeah, exactly. You know, not that those are— those aren't valid questions, it's just, you know, let's get excited about some great questions.

Yeah, I—

and I think that's— yeah, it's so important. Asking the right question is— you'll never get the right answer if you never ask the right question.

And I think that's like, we are—

oh, I feel like humans are sometimes a little bit lazy in that we figure out the right question one year and like, ah, we figured it out. And then we just go, oh, we figured it out forever. We never need to ask another question forever. 3 generations later, nope, same question. Don't ask a different question. It's— it worked. It worked for me. It worked for the next generation.

And it might have, and it might have been good for that time, right? I mean, But then you got to say, well, okay, what if AI can help me organize the way my window wall shades itself during the day so that I can go have a better day, or that doors will open for me just by me thinking about it, or that the ceiling plane might change color based on my mood? What if we do that? Then what happens? Because we can do that. And so let's, let's ask that question.

Yeah, I think, yeah, the technology, the technology is here. And I mentioned a couple of times, and I think it's really important, the impact. Like, we don't think about— we do, we're getting better, right? We're getting better about thinking about the ecological impact. You know, what are we doing to the earth? What are we doing to a forest? our rivers, things like that. Like, we are getting better. I wouldn't say we're there yet, but we're getting better about it. But there is this whole other, you know, sustainability is beyond just, do I have, you know, sourced material that wasn't made through conflict or slavery and didn't destroy the environment through its product? Like, you can cover all those bases, but then it's Human. How does a human— how does this society— We forgot ourselves.

We forgot ourselves.

Yeah, we skipped ourselves. And it's all the way from individual to macro of society, societal, you know, all of this. And 2020 was great for pointing out some societal issues that, right, that are still here. And I don't think we're done. I think there's more. And that the road to improvement will, will be a long one, but it's being aware of those. What is the impact? What is the impact of your building in the community? What does it do to the people living around it even? Right. So you have, as you start looking at this, what is impact? And it's this onion with, I don't think we peeled all, it'd be really hard to peel all the layers off of it.

Yep.

One conversation. Let alone a couple, because there's so many. Your impact is—

People drive by it, the people who live near it, the people who work in it, the people who work around it, who work on it.

Yeah, right. Yeah.

You think about, well, you're changing people, right?

You're—

you go to work, but if you have a terrible experience and you go home, well, now there's all the people at home. You have kids, you have spouse, right?

You have roommates.

If you have a terrible day every day, you're not gonna— maybe theirs is great, but you could ruin theirs, right? You're not gonna— so now you end up, you have this wave that ends up happening where impact becomes, well, what you do, you know, I, I don't— I think the butterfly effect's a little extreme, but there is an impact. It does radiate out. And then so there's a lot, there's a lot there.

Well, I mean, yeah, what you've kind of identified here is that You know, and this is starting to become a big piece, especially the last year, is a lot of public health professionals have now said architects are the next public health professional. I mean, they're going to join that, I guess, status, because we really do. I mean, this is how it's always been. And I don't— I guess, great, finally we had 2020 to really mark it down, like, okay, yeah, we really Because, yeah, what you've identified is that, um, you know, every responsibility of an architect is, is so critical because, you know, and, and you, you've kind of outlined all of the different layers that, that can get impacted just by one. This literally comes down to one line on a piece of paper, you know, one, one sketch.

You draw one line and that means there's something going to be there.

You could—

yes.

Yeah, that's— and that could be there for, for a long— it will be there for a long time. I mean, we really talk about, you know, um, the permanence of these structures. But, you know, again, that's another question, is that, you know, we should be designing better so that we can have them outlive, you know, more than a generation. I mean, it used to be, you know, you look at— and we've talked about this— ancient Greece, you know, ancient Rome, you know, look at how those structures have, have You know, they're celebrated today and they've withstood the test of time. And, but, but yet the structures we design today, too often they barely last a generation and then they're torn down.

Right. Yeah, there's no— this is something that I include in when I talk about conscious design is the legacy part. Like, what is— what are you leaving behind?

Right?

There's like the immediate impacts. Like we just talked about, right? The immediate impact. Somebody drives by it, somebody picks it up, you know, whatever that interaction is. But then there's the— well, especially with larger things, buildings, or I mean, even cars. Maybe we should think about how to build cars to last a little longer, right? Like these things that exist, they're going to— if you do it well, yes, you should be leaving— you're going to leave an impact, you're going to leave a legacy. It can be a really bad one, or it can— or it could be a forgotten one because you didn't actually make an impact. Or like you said, like, let's think about technology and how do we merge technology with what we're trying to do in order to make a house that will last 5 generations? How do we build a living structure that makes sense for a family to live in?

For somebody—

Even somebody to live in their entire life, right?

Oh, absolutely.

Like my grandparents, they started out with a 2-story house and they started getting older, they went back, right? They probably started, they started with a 1-story, then they got kids and they needed more room. So then you go to a 2-story and then your kids all leave and then you get old and you don't wanna go up the stairs anymore and then you go down. So like there's 3 houses just for the life cycle of one person now, right? And we used to do one, like one multi-generational house, family lived in it 4 generations. And that was it, right? That was, that was your, your family's house might not have moved for like 5 generations. And now we're like, move, move every 5 years.

Well, you know, I mean, I think this gets back to also the, you know, if we design, you know, this, this another layer of the value of designing consciously and just rigorously. and thinking about, you know, the impact of every, every line you draw on every wall that goes up is, you know, there's this idea that, you know, look at why do we celebrate ancient Greece still today? Because there's this aura of timelessness. They, they create— they created things carefully, and they didn't just go and say, ah, we're gonna just draw a line and put up a wall, and it costs nothing to, you know, it's cheaper to build and We have all these abundance of products and services that we can just slap something together. And then, you know, 49 years from now before it's deemed historic, we can tear it down.

Right.

And then, you know, build another thing. But then nobody's asking the question of, okay, well, you know, if you're just doing basic math, doesn't that actually cost more to do that? You know, not only is that the embedded carbon and the, you know, sustainability is off-the-charts horrible with that, but it actually cost us more. So, we're really asking the wrong questions. And it also goes to a higher order of a system of like, you know, this gets into a little bit of just the entire system of developers or who is— who's, you know, funding it, right? Do they own it for a short period of time? Do they get out and then they don't give a crap about where it goes, right? And that's— that could be Part of the problem too. But, and then I think also it's, it's like we also don't— I think architect— architecture is the most misunderstood profession, I think, um, because, you know, I don't think people fully understand, A, the responsibility we have, or B, what, what does a building really do? What does it mean? How is it—

Yeah.

What, what meaning does it embark to future generations? And what response— like, what responsibility we have to leave a cultural artifact. Because I think, you know, unfortunately, 90% of the time we aren't leaving cultural artifacts because, first of all, the system doesn't support it, the systems that exist, or it's that, you know, people don't understand. And so I think, yeah, there's a big portion of this, like, education. that needs to happen on, you know, because it's very easy to just feel like if you didn't— if you don't know architecture, and that's okay, not— I mean, everybody's got different sensibilities. I happen to be very sensitive to it. But if you just think, oh, there's a building, right? And this is before I went to architecture school. I kind of, you know, sort of had more of a ground-level understanding. It's like, oh, there's, there's 4 walls and a roof, and I could have a general contractor, you know, scribe those up. We could build it and put some windows in it, and oh, it looks kind of nice.

Okay.

Well, but that's not, that's not what architecture is. And I don't think anybody really understands, the general public really understands that. And there's this, this artistry, there's this magic that happens when you look at it in a, in a way that's more than that. And, you know, I think that's—

yeah.

I think it's interesting because we have, we do know what architects, like if we talk about ancient architecture, like, oh, Right? Look at Egypt, Mayans, Greeks, Romans, like any ancient civilization, and we go, oh, the architects, right? We say it and there's like this reverence of other amazing architects. Look at what they built. And then we go architect today.

Okay, cool.

We're gonna, we're gonna cheapen that. Ignore what the architect said.

It's a general— Yeah, that's the other thing.

It's a guideline, right?

It's just a guideline.

It's fine.

Yeah, well, and yeah, you know, I mean, people, you know, it's like, um, we just— it's, it's the— it's really kind of just, I, you know, I, I just— what I seek to do is, is change that in, in my own way and just really go about what I do in, in sort of not only educating people on, on the difference and the value that, that, you know, we bring as designers, but just— and this is design in general, right? I mean, I think It's really like when, you know, people can feel it. Like, I don't think, you know, it's— you have to open the door and sort of inform on what you're doing, but also there's this unquantifiable feeling and emotion that you get when something just was designed well and rigorously. And, you know, the first-generation iPhone and the way that it fit in your hand, or You know, just, you know, an architect that designs something so that the scale of the doors and the windows and the proportion of the ceiling and the heights, everything just flows. And you're like, man, I feel at home, you know. And you don't have to go to architecture school to know that. But it's— I do think we need to, we need to convey what we're doing, um, so that, so that people can sort of, um, appreciate it more. And, and then it can happen more often.

Yeah, I think that's a good point, is education. If no one appreciates it or knows how to, right? If they don't— it's not like we come out of the womb and you say, oh, I appreciate great art.

That's right.

That's great.

I love, I love art.

I love sculptures. I— this looks great. Like, it doesn't— I don't think it just comes out as, as a— we're born to. We have to look at it and start to understand it. And the more you understand it then you more do it. And like, when I was first starting out as a designer, I designed lasers. And one of the things that one of the engineers there taught me is like, you know, the secret— one of the secrets to making stuff look good is the golden ratio. So I designed lasers using the golden ratio whenever I can. And we did. We made— that was like one of the things that was done. And it was great. Like, it was just— and they did. I mean, the lasers are not going to be like— they're not the prettiest things on the planet, but we could tell the ones that, that somebody had done it and the ones that somebody hasn't, right?

Absolutely.

And it's— and that's just a great— that's just one like little, little thing. And the more people know about it, the more people will understand. Because part of it too is like that feeling you get. You mentioned like You walk into space and you go, this is a great space. I just want to sit down. I just—

Right.

I feel at home. I feel comfortable. I feel safe. Like, you're getting— everything is just really nice. And I think too much of that is a— it's a little too etheric. We look at, you know, things of like feng shui and other cultures' version of that, and we go, oh, that's, that's either really weird or not real. Yeah. At the same time, like, I've known people who set up You know, spaces for like Macy's stores that they're feng shui masters, either at that skill, and they use it because when they follow those principles along with— and they pull from all kinds of things, right? It's not just one.

Yeah.

But they pull from all that and they go, well, yeah, we can tell the difference between before and after. We can create a place that people want to stay and shop instead of feeling, eh, it's okay, I'm going to grab my thing and run.

Yeah.

So if you can do it for people like that that are shopping, you can really do it for your house.

Well, you know, retail is— they've really capitalized on that, right? You know, I mean, you look at— because they've been able to quantify, right? Because, you know, they can back up their sales. They've got their line items on a spreadsheet like you can't believe, which, you know, good for them. They— and you'll see in a lot of, you know, grocery stores for the last like 5 years, you'll notice how they switched out the color temperature of the lights into very specific, even down to like Walmart will have a very specific color temperature on the vegetables, right? And the fruit in the produce section so that, you know, you get to see the color and you're more intrigued, you're more invited to go, you know, purchase that.

Because it makes a difference. It does.

And, you know, you know, you could say that, hey, you know, Walmart's got better lighting on their produce section than 90% of houses in America.

Like, Oh, definitely. Oh, absolutely.

You know, and so, and it's really, you know, you talk about too, um, yeah, the gold. So the golden section, um, or the golden ratio, um, it's, it's one of those things too where those are all, these are all things that have been around and exist. Feng shui, right? It's, it's, you know, what we're now— what?

It's old. It's very old.

Yeah. And so, it's like, you know, it's so— but what we're getting at now with conscious design is we're now quantifying. We're saying, wait, feng shui, actually, that actually we're now able to track through, for example, through neuroaesthetics and EEG headsets to say that, oh, our brainwaves prefer those, you know, layouts.

Right.

And that's really the power that we have In this era that we live in, that's what I kind of reference, is we need to take advantage of that and really use that as a— because it's a massive asset when we can say someone's, you know, EEG neural mapping is showing that they are, you know, more calm with this layout. And, you know, it might even come down to moving a wall 2 inches and moving a windowsill down. maybe, you know, a half an inch, let's say. You know, it actually makes a difference. We can now study that. And so that's really magical because then as designers, we're, you know, I think design up until now, maybe we were more touchy-feely, which it should always be. There should be this balance. But conscious design and being rigorous, it's about saying, okay, well, there's some other variables now I can pay attention to and I should pay attention to because It's— I'm really making an impact here, you know. And I— if I can, if I can move that windowsill a couple inches and that changes somebody's outcome in an inpatient unit in a hospital, wow, right? You know.

Yeah, especially in that. I mean, if, if you can increase, you know, surgery success or decrease recovery time by how enjoyable the place is that you're in, right?

And we can, and we now do. And it's very critical that we continue to, because that's our responsibility as designers, and especially in my field in architecture. That's our— we are serving the public, right? And we are sort of responsible to use all of the latest tools and resources to our advantage. And to make a better impact.

Yeah, and I think it's great that we have the technology now because touchy-feely stuff generally is not something that people— if you are and you get it, then you get it. And if not, you kind of go, doesn't make sense. And being able to check people's neurology, what's going on in their minds, and say, yeah, look, we did this. And this increase quantifying the technical ability, then, because that's part of it, right? Is you mentioned like it's cost cutting and you go through, you know, you architect something and then they go, okay, well, cost cut, cost cut, cost cut. And it's because you don't— the only reason people do that is because they don't see value.

Right.

You can add in like, no, no, you need to pay for that door because that door Actually gives, like, you can quantify and say, yep, these things do actually matter. And the way I've designed it provides this value. If you swap out for this other cheaper stuff, right, this value begins to decrease. And I think quantifying that value of, you know, you can walk into a space or, you know, people that do retail, they can walk into a space and go, oh, you move this chair 3 inches here, you move this here. Move. I need that wall pushed over here, different color over here, and I need a blue light here. It's probably all a bad combination, but whatever they say, they can walk into a room and just go, this is what it needs.

Exactly.

And then you can, you can be the person sitting, standing there watching them, and you can tell the difference if you feel a room change.

Yeah.

Wow, that's amazing.

But I would have no idea how to do that. Right. And be able to quantify it though and say, here, I'm going to move it 3 inches because of this.

Absolutely.

We're going to do this because of this. And I think that that quantification and, and we have the data, we have all the tools. We can, we can read heart rate, we can read body temperature. I mean, we read all that stuff.

Absolutely.

Heartwatch doesn't half of that.

Oh yeah, I mean, you know, people's, you know, let's say, you know, people's been wearing these biometrics now for what, we're at almost a decade of this and it's like, well, think of all the data we already have on it, you know, it's like we're sitting on, you know, these data lakes.

A treasure trove.

Yeah, it's, and so, yeah, it's really exciting what we can do with that and that's really one of my big passions is what you've sort of just identified is it's translating it, right? It's— not everybody speaks architect, not everyone speaks designer, and that's okay. But let's do a little bit better job of translating what we do and how we do it and why we do it. And it's amazing what can happen. And, you know, a lot of— some designers might be a little bit afraid of, you You know, hard numbers and science and research. But guess what? It's really— it's an asset. You choose to look at it as an asset that you get to plug and play with as much or as little as you want, but that it's a piece of your design process because that's information, right? It's kind of like, you know, if I were to go drive down the street without, you know, a gear shifter. Well, I mean, now we can do that today, but You know, let's say without a steering wheel, or, you know, we're getting closer to things, but let's— the more we take out, you know, let's, let's think about certain things in inputs. It's like you're just that much more rigorous, and you're in— what's going to happen is, is that much more amazing, I think.

Yeah, well, that's, that's one of the most important things I think with conscious design is observation. If you can't observe it, you can't be aware of it. If you're not aware of it, you can't do anything about it, right? There's no— without that input, right, you're, you're blind to it. And obviously we've, we've made it through, through the ages so far without all the input, but we have so many more things that can give us input. It's, it's silly, really, to not— Go, well, let's look at all the inputs. Let's, let's look at this information and figure out how do we design with all of the knowledge that we can have rather than just looking at our little window we've been, we've been looking at for the last 100 years.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Oh, awesome.

Yeah, I think that, uh, no, that definitely is kind of my, my excitement right now. So it's exciting to see what, um, What we'll do with it.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm excited to see what you, what you do on the architect side. And, um, yeah, this has been, this has been really great chatting with you.

Yeah, you too.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

So, um, for anyone listening or watching, where, where can people find you?

Yeah. So, um, I'm currently, uh, Launching my, my website, co-shape.space. Um, and I know, Ian, you'll have the links, uh, to follow, and you can also, uh, check out my LinkedIn. Um, and yeah, that's kind of my main piece.

Perfect. Well, thank you so much for being on. I, I really appreciate it. Love our conversation.

Absolutely.

Thank you for having me again. And yeah, yeah, thank you.

Thank you.