Shifting to Different Markets with Ryan Margolin of Professional Hair Labs

All right, welcome to this episode of Conscious Design. I'm your host, Ian Peterman, and author of the Conscious Design book, and I'm excited to have with me today Ryan Margolin, CEO of Professional Hair Labs, where they develop hair— premium hair products focused on safety and quality. Welcome to the show.

Thanks a lot, Ian. Looking forward to having a chat.

Yeah, so I'd love to— I was just— you're second generation in the business, so you, you didn't start it necessarily, but I'd love for you to, to talk a little bit about the origin and kind of— I know safety is a huge component of, of what you guys are really focused on, so could you talk a little bit about how that started and, and why that's, you know, obviously it's a good thing to have, but Why is that like the, the main thing that you guys are focused on?

Uh, well, because it all, it kind of all falls into why the company started in the first place. Um, my mother was a master hair technician, my dad was a business owner, uh, they started a hair replacement business in New York, so I grew up in the industry. Uh, I knew a lot about, you know, the hair replacement industry just from simply being around it. Um, after years of using specific products. My mother got chemical poisoning and it forced her into early retirement. So my dad sold the business and he focused on creating a product line that was not only safe for technicians, but also for hair wearers, people who wore hair systems or wigs due to a bunch of different means, whether it's hereditary or ill health. There was some reason that they needed to wear one.

Right.

He collaborated with a team of chemists and over a period of time developed a very standard product line. And that launched in 1994. And from 1994 till about 2009, it was a very new type of product because it was a water-based solution rather than a solvent-based solution. So just straight off the bat, it was safer from the fact that it had no chemicals in it. Remove the chemicals.

That's a good, good first step.

Good start. And What happened was then there was always this base formulation there, but the adhesion technology didn't exist. And when I joined the company in 2009, it was a lot aligned at that time just naturally. So my background was always sales and marketing. Company wasn't performing as my dad wanted. And he said, look, there's an opportunity here, you know, I need some help. I'd like for you to come in and take a look and see what's going on and what you change. And After some thought, myself and my wife, and we had a daughter at the time, well, we had one daughter at the time, decided to move to Florida for a year and a half and spent the first 6 months learning about the intricacies of the business, looking at its marketing, its sales, its systems internally, externally. And I spent the first 3 months alongside that full 6 months building a manual database of all hair replacement studios in the United States. And we changed some really simple things. The marketing was completely stripped back and the branding and we rebuilt it from the ground up and we did a really simple direct mail marketing campaign to the hair replacement studios in the United States and within 18 months we tripled revenue. So it was, yeah, so look, it just, I'm a firm believer, the simplest solutions are always the best. And that's kind of what launched the product and validated it because during that time we were able to get our hands on the adhesion technology we were looking for to give the main product we had in our line the performance it needed, which we were kind of aiming for since the beginning. So that was just, it just naturally aligned. So from that point then we just started to grow year on year and we realized that we had international scope for this product. And we opened an EU facility in Ireland where we manufacture and distribute globally. And then we have our US location as well. So it's kind of grown quite steadily since 2009.

Amazing. And so you were able to do this, the shift and launch and really start growing. Then are you, I'm curious as far as consumer, like that you're, who you actually get sold to, who you sell to, are you Are you more on the commercial end of the professional, at the professional level? That's the grade? Are you into and really getting into the consumer side as well? Or do you kind of, how are you shifting those 2 markets?

Naturally, it's shifting and I'll tell you why. We're a B2B company, we're a manufacturer. So we'd work with, you know, hair replacement studios, salons, wholesalers, distributors for our brand. And also because we're a manufacturer, we can custom formulate and we supply other companies their own products that they, they have us manufacture for them. But what we really, what we really found over the recent years was that there was a huge demand in the consumer marketplace for education and, you know, why they should be using these products. And that's why we definitely shifted our focus on the education side, which we don't charge for. to the consumer to make sure they have the information to make the safest choices possible and they know why they're making choices. So the demand, I suppose, right now in the marketplace is driven by the end consumer using the product. But, you know, distributors, wholesalers, studios and salons are the, you know, are the medium between there. So it's, yeah, look, I mean, it's a nice synergy.

Okay.

Look, because we can move volumes of products and we can allow than our partners to, you know, to be able to supply a safe solution and also remain profitable too.

Right. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So consumers are more aware now, right? And I would imagine if your mom working got this chemical poisoning, if you're wearing it on your head every day, and that's not really a great place either.

It's not. And she had, you know, gotten chemical poisoning from using it. She was the technician. So even though it was a well-ventilated area and the industry wasn't regulated at that time, it still really isn't to the extent it should be. Manufacturers were getting away with literally murder, you know, putting solvents in the products that were derivatives of gasoline, toluene, xylene, hexane, which are still in products that are on the market at the moment. And for some reason—

Wow.

Individuals still choose to use it knowing that they're carcinogens. And, um, I mean, how do you, how do you combat that when you, when you put the education out there to show them exactly what it is and the choice is still there to use it? So there's just some— there's, there is an aspect and a percentage of the marketplace that will always continue to do what they feel is best, but from a health perspective, long term, it's detrimental.

Right. And are you seeing Obviously the market is shifting, right? Consumers are wanting more information. They're more willing to tell, I think, professionals at this point that, no, I don't want that stuff. I want this, right? I want natural. I want, you know, whatever it is that they're gonna, however they verbalize that request.

Yeah.

Are you seeing a shift on the professional, like over the last, since 2009, are you seeing that on the professional level too, where there's a lot more wanting, asking, hey, we want something that we don't have to work daily with that is bad? Are you seeing it both, or is one driving more than the other?

I think one is driving more than the other. You know, individuals are becoming more health conscious. So naturally the demand is being driven through the studios and the, you know, the hair replacement locations. But what's happening is that there's a higher demand now for innovation surrounding health, you know, health and safety. So, you know, there's different types of products they're looking for. Some studios really like the ability to have a client come in and they provide them a service and that service should last 4 weeks. And they, you know, if they're— if everything goes according to plan, they don't see them again for 4 weeks. But some other studios would prefer clients to be coming in more frequently and And they require products that would have a slightly less hold time, but it provides the result that the client expects and wants. So it has changed an awful lot. And unfortunately, if you don't constantly have your finger on the pulse and develop new solutions, somebody is out there and you're gonna, yeah, you're gonna lose the business.

Absolutely.

You know, so look, it's quite entertaining at times when you're trying to You know, develop new products and then try to find a way to market them in a way that connects with the generations because even our, even our, you know, our demographic of age group when, you know, we first started in '94, even up to 2009, our demographic and age group was kind of, you know, 35 to 55, whereas now it's completely shifted down to the mid-20s into the early to mid-30s, you know. So That tells me hair replacement is becoming less of a taboo and people really want to speak about it and their experience and their journey. And naturally, if they build an audience, they want the ability to monetize that audience too.

So, right.

Yeah. So it's a different industry, you know.

And as from the manufacturing side, are you— because you do custom, you'll, you'll custom build somebody else's product as well. Is that, is that also growing? Are there more and more People are like, hey, you have the solution, you figured out how to make it not a horrible product. Can you make it that— I would imagine that's growing as well. Is that, is it a similar or is it—

It's growing because we only, so what we did is when, when we had our brand, which is Ghost Bond and Professional Hair Labs, when, when that brand became kind of globally renowned, we started to realize that we wanted to apply those same principles and methodologies to a wider array of cosmetic products. So it's only in the last few years that we've started to create the foundations and the strategies to move deeper into the cosmetic space. You know, for example, April 2023, we're gonna be moved into our new facility, which takes our manufacturing space from 10,000 square feet to 50,000 square feet. So it's a big jump.

Yeah, yeah, that's 5x is a big, big jump. Congratulations. That's awesome.

It takes time, but at the same time, that's going to allow us to, you know, cater for a larger database of potential clients. So every single day we're getting new leads, new queries with a bunch of different product ideas that they want developed for their company. And a lot of them we would have baseline off the shelf in our formulas already, which means we can make small adjustments to Uh, customized. But then there are some projects which require, you know, work from the ground up, and those, those projects could take, you know, 3 to 6 months depending on the complexity of what needs to be done. Some might need SPF testing, uh, which requires time and different filters. So complexity is, is really a big question. But there, there's, there's a lot of companies in the cosmetic space looking for new innovative products, and they have the ideas. You know, we have the resource to do it. They have the ideas to bring it to the market.

That's amazing. So you're seeing more and more new ideas then? More people are saying, hey, we have a new idea, can we do it, than before? That's awesome. It's always good when there's more new ideas. That's how we fix—

Oh yeah, I'm a firm believer that when it starts to get stagnant, that's when you start to worry a little bit. For right now, everything is as it should be. Awesome.

Well, yeah, it's so interesting. I talk to different people, you know, like the fashion industry is not as regulated and people in it are like, it's not as regulated as it should be, please regulate it. And so it's, I haven't dug into, you know, hair products as much, but it's interesting that, you know, here we are talking and you're saying the same thing of, yeah, no, there's no, it's a fly-by-night, do whatever, throw it in. Mix it up, put it out, and you're, you're good to go. And it's baffling to me because I've worked in other fields that are very, very, like, medical devices and, like, uh, even telecommunications, highly regulated. Like, there's these other areas that are, like, so regulated, and then talking to people like you are like, wow, there's like— yeah, the Wild West still exists.

It is. No, it does. And because, you see, cosmetics is highly regulated. But at the same time, it's a brilliant place to be in because it allows you to really explore the true potential of possibilities with so many different types of ingredients. You know, there's so many new cutting-edge technologies that are released by many companies on a yearly basis. And what we like to do is, you know, we have good relationships with a lot of raw material manufacturers. And, you know, when they come up with innovations, it's like, you know, listen, here, here's, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50 grams. Let's go, go test some, you know, some products. And what we do sometimes is that we would start to test our own versions of products that we have ideas for, but then other times we'd leave a little bit to the side and there will at some point be somebody that comes along and asks for it and then we can, we have the ability to quickly, you know, put something together for them. But yeah, that's the beauty about cosmetics, you know, while there's, you know, the regulations are really is the ingredient banned or is it not? And if it's not banned, is it still safe or likely to be banned at some point because of the tests they have going on? Anything past that, it's experimental. So, and that's the fun part about it.

Hey, it's Ian here. So glad you're enjoying this episode of Conscious Design. If you want the full scoop on conscious design, what it is, how we do it, how you can do it, then check out our book. We wrote it so creative entrepreneurs like you can code social and environmental responsibility right into your brand's DNA. You can download the first chapter for free. Link is in the description. Enjoy the rest of the episode. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share. That's awesome. And are you— so you mentioned hair products and you're, you're 5xing your manufacturing floor. Are you expanding beyond? Are you applying your adhesives and different stuff to other areas than just hair replacement? And kind of how, how has that progressed as you've gone?

Yeah, and that's exactly— we found new application forms for, you know, our product. And, you know, whether it's eyebrows, eyelashes, face gems, it's used, you know, for prosthetics on the set of films and series, you know. I mean, I know—

I had a thought. I was wondering if it was used for that.

It is, it is, you know. Look, and there's been quite— there's been, you know, there's been a couple more recently that have actually used our products, a couple of Netflix series and then a TV A TV one as well. I think it was Fear the Walking Dead. They had used our products on the set and there was—

Amazing.

Yeah, so Dahmer, I believe, as well on Netflix, they also used our products. So it is an industry go-to. But again, it's an industry go-to because they know it's safe and they know it performs. And we have, you know, look, we have certain adhesives that are tailored for that type of use. You know, you're working under bright lights in front of cameras where it's not, It's really hot. And, you know, if you have an adhesive that decides, okay, temperature's too hot, I'm going to revert back to a glue-like state, it's going to leak all down your face. That's not going to be great. So no, there's different formulas we have to develop for, for those purposes.

Got it. And I'm curious because I don't— I didn't see a ton of advertising towards it, but obviously Not being caustic chemicals. You're, you're very much aiming more towards, you know, natural things. Are, are you aiming to shift more? And, and is that part of your kind of where you're going, of more trying to get into the organic and things like that? Is that, is that like the track kind of? How, how are you shifting? Because there's this rainbow, right, from super—

Right.

Supernatural, 100%, like barely processed to like chemicals that we probably shouldn't use.

Well, we always steer away from the products and the chemicals or the ingredients we should never use. We always formulate in alignment with EU regulations because there's about, you know, 5 or 6 times more banned ingredients in the EU regulations than there is in the US. So if we follow the EU, we know pretty good. Secondly, the total shift to organic for us is not going to happen. You know, we When you— we are producing organic lines with one for sure, but it will never fully take over, you know, in our plans of the whole product line. And there's a reason for that, is that fully natural products are amazing, but they also have 2 downsides, is that their shelf life is largely diminished, and also so is the performance.

Mm-hmm.

They are our gold standard raw material ingredients that are used in cosmetics to provide either function of, of a preservative or, you know, special features like in a shampoo or conditioner that, that are 100% safe. And the only thing is they're synthetic, they're not natural, but, you know, they still perform and they're safe. So there's no need to, to push it fully organic. Now, I know there's people who want only organic and that's great. It can be done and we have products for it. But we will always keep the core, you know, performance of our product line by sticking to these, these types of ingredients unless studies come out that show us otherwise. We kind of go with, with science on that one.

Right. Well, that makes sense. Yeah. If a study comes out, then it's— then you— then once you know, it's— it can't be a decision to stick with the material anymore.

Exactly. Exactly. And look, I mean, you kind of through your user testing and the years that your product is on the market, you get a good idea and a good indication Because if you have, you know, if you're supplying a million units a year and, you know, you get, you know, 1% rate of somebody coming in and saying this product has done this to me, this product, I've had this reaction. Yes, absolutely. At that point, then it is something to be aware of and take a look at. Maybe change, you know, the guidance on your labels or, you know, maybe start to query with the raw material manufacturers because ultimately it's those are the guys who are doing the studies. Because at the end of the day, they're making money, but they want to make sure that what they're providing in most cases is safe. So that's—

It'll always go back. It'll always go back to the raw material. No matter what, somebody will trace it eventually. So you want to make sure you have good stuff.

Exactly. And you know what, look, that's just part of where we're at in our journey. You know, we are moving more towards a green operation. You know, in terms of emissions and stuff, you know, we're trying to move over the next 3 years to be 100% solar sufficient.

Amazing.

You know, with our equipment and with our transport like vans and stuff where we're moving more in that direction. But there's just certain aspects of it which we just can't at the moment simply because the, like, just the data is not there to push us in that direction yet.

Right. Well, it's— and I'm, uh, I'm always a proponent of whatever is going to be the most natural, the most eco-friendly. I want it to be that, but there's also the balance. And I think people do get caught up sometimes. They're like, 100% natural right now. We're like, well, but we don't have the technology. You're not gonna— you're not gonna actually like the product if we, if we do it. So like, I feel like there's, there's a, there's a road to it. I'm sure eventually someone will figure out a material and, you know, who knows, maybe you'll acquire that when somebody develops it.

It's the balance, you know, like that's the balance.

But it's gotta work, otherwise no one's gonna— so if you have a non-functional product, right, nobody, nobody can— it could be the most, in my opinion, the most green product on the planet. It can be the most fair trade. Everyone makes a ton of money when you make it. You know, employees are super happy. The cheapest paid person makes living wage wherever they're at. But if it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, no one will buy it. And none of, none of what I just described will happen because it will be— other than we'll lose money. Whoever has started it will just lose a bunch of money and it'll be a flop. So you gotta balance that performance, gotta work.

100%, right? 100%.

With it. So What are you guys looking at going forward? Are you, are you wanting to get into more cosmetic? Are more companies coming to you saying, hey, hair, you know, the hair is great, cosmetic, do you want to grow outside of that? Or are you really sticking, this is our lane, we're super amazing at it? And what's the thought process?

Yeah, we've broken it off. Uh, the answer to that is we are. Um, so we're staying in our lane as Professional Hair Labs. And, you know, that product line being the industry leader, um, that's still going ahead as it always does. But our principal manufacturing company, Scientific Cosmetics, is going to be the company that creates the umbrella brands. So there's going to be many different brands coming out from, you know, from the company over the next, you know, say 2 to 3 years. But at the same time, then we'll also have the opportunity to manufacture and supply for other companies that that are in need of products because look, e-commerce and, you know, beauty, it's a massive industry.

Huge and growing. Yeah.

And you're only, but the thing is you're only as good as your last sale because, you know, if somebody gets a bad product in a cosmetic, it will be, it's a, the guarantee is that they won't buy it again, you know.

So yeah, it's a one shot.

You're only as good as your last sale in the industry. And, and, and that's why everything you do has to be meticulous and it has to be consistent.

Right. Yeah. Consistency. It's just very accurate. Everyone I know of, they don't like changes in their care product, right? You don't want the smell to change. You don't— there's so many, there's so many factors. If you're putting something on your body, you're like, no, it can't. It's gotta feel the same, smell the same, look the same as they have the same shine in the sun or, you know, whatever, whatever those are, factors are, they have to stay the same. Otherwise, Otherwise it's immediately, oh, this sucks. They changed something. I don't like it. I gotta find something else now.

That's what happens though, you know, it's like we were in it, we were in a situation where we had to change one of our scents to one of our shampoos. And the unfortunate part about it was this specific manufacturer made a custom blend of an ingredient that was proprietary to them and we couldn't even reverse engineer it to figure it out. And the moment we did, now again, we changed and that's the way it's been since. But literally within 3 months of supply, it started to filter through the chains and we were getting questions about it. So what you said there is 100% right. The first thing somebody does when they open the bottle is their senses take in the smell of the product and next it takes in, you know, the aesthetics, you know, is the packaging the same? Does the product look the same in the jar? So all those things matter.

Yeah, that's a very— it's a fun space. I've worked some in cosmetics and it's fun, but it's also frustrating, especially when you have supplier change and they're like, oh, proprietary, but it's gone. So good luck, everyone who used this is out of luck now.

And it was just like they were no longer making it and it was like, listen, we'll actually buy from you, you know, we'll buy the rights to it. And they're like, no thanks. They're like, what? So we were just like, we were left—

That's crazy. Yeah.

So look, we were just left in a place that we had to change it. And look, that happens too, you know, sometimes ingredients change. But I do believe that like anything, if you've got a very popular product and there is any sort of, you know, change to the, you know, the makeup of it, the chemistry, that it should be made known. And unfortunately, you know, big companies kind of let themselves down, I think, sometimes when they do a launch and they don't put any PR behind it to let them know, to let people know. Because I usually find that if people have a heads up, they're usually easily, more easily adjusted to the change, you know.

Right.

Like if any changes that we've had to make to, you know, some of our popular products, we will always advise our studios and salons well in advance to say, listen, you know, this is one of the changes we're making. This is how it will likely affect the way the product looks or the performance. And once they get it and they know it, they know it's there, they test it, 99% of the time they're okay with it.

Yeah, I mean, people don't like surprises. And I think that's the biggest thing is you don't want to buy something, open it up, start to use it and be like, oh, This is not what I— because then their first thought is, well, this is a bad batch. Maybe they made a bad batch. So now they're gonna—

What is that? What kind of thoughts did that put into your head? You know?

Nothing, nothing good about the brand.

Like, and it's quite like for us, right? For example, our Ghost Bond line, it's our most popular range used across the globe. About, you know, 5 years ago, the first counterfeit of the product popped up online and it's turned into a major issue for us. And it's done, it's given us a lot of, you know, bad rep in the industry because people were using these counterfeits. And when they reached out to us, we were able to ascertain that, look, they're not, it's not a genuine article or unit. And, you know, I don't know anymore, do those customers, you know, choose to use one of our legitimate distributors, you know? But it's been a huge task enforcing that side of things, you know, that's still ongoing. We've got cases on in the UK and the US. And look, when there's a popular product that can be made really cheaply with really poor ingredients, they will do it to make a dollar. And it's as simple as that.

Yeah, I just ask any handbag manufacturer. It's a business, even using, you know, good, not even the cheapest, right? Use good or okay But you're still cheaper, right?

It's still, you know, and this is it. And the S, like, I mean, on a yearly basis, you know, I can say confidently and openly this year, our estimated losses from counterfeits just on one product alone are gonna be in the region of about $5 million. So you can tell somebody's making that on the other end, you know.

Yeah, with probably higher margins and no customer service.

Yeah, with way higher margins and nowhere to, and you know what the funny thing is, is that They're so clever, you know, like obviously they're all coming out of China. That's where the counterfeits originate from, whether they're brought into the country without labels or with labels. They're relinquishing themselves of product liability because of the way they have their supply chain set up going to the consumer into the United States. So it's really intelligently done. You can tell this is what they do is their bread and butter because they can never be held accountable. So all you can do is kind of cut the head off the snake at the source of sales. So once it comes into the country, that's where you tackle it.

Right. So, so you have to— you can't do anything, right? If they don't, if they don't put a fake label on it, there's no way it could be caught on the border, right? There's no, no import, no customs or anything can catch. So you, you can't even do anything Until the point of sale.

Yeah, until the point of sale. That's exactly it. We have our trademarks registered with Border Patrol and with the AFA in Europe. And, you know, look, it's very rare that you would get a seizure from them because they know they send it in without a label and whoever's taking it in on the other side will put the label on it. Wow.

That's yeah, that's a whole that's a whole business. That's a whole.

It is.

That's a well thought out player.

Better off in that business than it is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, their profit margins I'm sure are astronomically higher.

So yeah, and that's it. So look, it's just part of the we've accepted it as part of doing business now though. You know, we we just have to protect our brand at any means. Necessary and we have to just educate. So, you know, look, we, you know, this year in particular, a lot of PR around, you know, the good that we're doing in the industry and around the dangers of counterfeits. And we're just hoping the word gets out there and that people will be more aware, like even from a fact of packaging. I mean, we've developed and are now using our own custom-built authentication system On our packaging via QR codes that can't be replicated. And we're there on our packaging.

That's amazing.

So basically, you know, if somebody wanted to copy our bottle or label our packaging, they can go ahead and do that all day long, but they don't have access to these codes. And what I found was happening was they were taking, they were copying one code and they were putting it on 100 different packages. But when you do test buys, you can see that the code is the same every single time. So that's a telltale sign that there's no, that they're all the same, you know.

And then, right, they're getting, they're getting one bottle to copy basically.

Exactly.

And they're like, oh, well, that's the QR code, we'll just use that.

So somebody scans it, they're like, yep, that's a genuine product, I'm gonna use it. But when we do the test buy, we have, you know, 30 different bottles that all have the same code on them. We're like, that's counterfeit.

Right, right. It's all from the same place. It all has the same, like, this, this is not Not good.

Exactly. So look, you know, it's, that's a whole other interesting conversation, you know.

Oh yeah.

Over that. But it's, look, we're happy to be doing what we're doing. You know, it's more than just a business for us. It's a mission because of our experience growing up. And look, we make sure that we keep doing what we need to do to protect that.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I wish you the best in that. Counterfeit is a pain to deal with no matter, no matter what. But it's good that you're— it's good it hasn't, you know, I mean, $5 million isn't something to, to laugh at, right, as a business. But it's still— it hasn't impacted you to a point where you're filing for bankruptcy. You're like, it hasn't, it hasn't taken you out. So you're able to still put out a good product, which is great. And hopefully that's able to just Keep going and you can just keep steamrolling past all of these, all of these people, which I think having this, having the brand that you have and the recognition, at least you have that weight so that when you, you can go out there and be like, hey guys, we have real product, we have an authentication system. Like, this is genuine. This is not like, we only give out good stuff.

Yeah.

It's the best you can do.

Yeah. And that's it. You just, you have to just keep trying to stay one step ahead of, you know, they move fast in terms of product sales and copying the products, but you have to stay strategically past them because if not, you'll just be consumed. And that's what I learned. It took us a long time to catch up to the strategy part of it to make sure we were staying ahead of them. But we have a good system in place now and I'd be highly surprised if there's another situation where we're doing test buys that we're not sure if it's legitimate or not without doing our lab testing, you know. Right.

Yeah, a whole other level of testing you can do.

Yes.

So amazing. Well, before we wrap up, is there anything else that you want to chat about, mention?

No, really, you know, look at, I mean, when it comes to your audience, whether it's people listening directly or somebody who knows somebody, and they're in the cosmetic space or e-commerce space and they want to expand their product line, I would say, you know, we're the guys to talk to first. And if you choose not to, you know, do business with us, at the very least you'll come away from the conversation with a lot more knowledge than you started with. So that's really it. Our website's prohairlabs.com. We're on all social media channels. My main hangout is usually LinkedIn.

So Yeah, same. LinkedIn is good. It's mostly business, which is nice. Yeah.

And look, I mean, you know, you can get access to people quite simply to get information, which is, I think it's a lot easier nowadays than it was, you know, making a cold call to somebody and trying to get through, you know, receptionists or, you know.

Yeah, I remember that. That's not as easy, not as easy to do.

Get ignored sometimes, but that's okay too. That's, that's allowed.

You know, it's okay if somebody doesn't respond, but at least you can know that the message actually got to the person instead of 5 people deep wondering what went on.

So on a little Post-it note in the side of the rubbish bin. Yeah.

Yes. Yep. I noted it down and threw it away immediately.

Yeah. No, I appreciate the, uh, I appreciate the conversation. And, and, um, the, uh, the, you know, the chat, it was, it was really good. So, um, yeah, other than that though, um, we'll just keep moving on and doing what we're doing.

Absolutely. Well, it was great to have you on. I really appreciate it. And yeah, anybody that's listening, if you have friends who want Cosmetic World, definitely check them out. And we'll— all the links and everything will be in the description for everyone to just click on. So thanks so much.

No problem, Ian. Thanks.