#10 Craig Foster

It's joyous and uplifting, and it's also very frightening at the same time, because you realize that we're all part of the demise of the Great Mother as well. We are contributing to things that bring her down. And I'm still learning, I'm still very much a student, you know, at the feet of these creatures, at the feet of this Great African Sea Forest, trying to understand this giant mystery, this tremendous complexity.

He holds 26 world records for achievements that for most people seem impossible and dangerous.

The cold is my teacher. To me, it's like God.

He might well be one of the most unique humans currently alive.

Wim Hof is changing scientists' understanding of how the body works. I created a method. The components are breathing, mindset, and cold.

Wim Hof, the Iceman.

Hi guys. I'm Wim, Wim Hof, and every term I go into the unknown through my podcasts, exploring, exploring life into the depth, breaking the ice to go where nobody has gone before.

You're listening to the Wim Hof Podcast, a Monk Studios original.

And on my side, my son, Ina. He's here to keep me on track, which he's not able to do, by the way, but He will try it and together we got a great chemistry. And we got Anne, our producer. She makes things really work.

On today's episode, Oscar and BAFTA-winning filmmaker, naturalist, author, and ocean explorer Greg Foster is joining Wim. His film My Octopus Teacher has led to making the Great African Sea Forest a global icon. Greg believes that the greatest threat we face is the cooling of the human heart towards nature. He co-founded the MPO Sea Change Project, and his work in the ocean has contributed to the discovery of new species and new animal behaviors.

So today, Greg Foster is the—

Yeah, Greg Foster is amazing. The octopus teacher that really touched me beyond words, like deep recognition of what I've been searching in my life the soul of being, the sense of being without words. That is what he shows. And when I heard we're gonna have my octopus teacher, the man himself, I mean, I was, wow, oh, I'm so happy to be myself because I'm getting to know people like that. Wow, I'm in the position that I am able to receive people in that podcast Wow, I love this podcast.

Yeah, we actually shared the post through your accounts and we got in connection with the team and he is also actually doing ice baths in his back garden, but just when the water is too warm to dive into. They still dive into it, but—

Yeah, exactly. The warm friend thing. The cold is my warm friend. Yes, it's contradictory. But like comfort zone behavior kills people. And cold water, which looks like, oh no, it brings back this sensitivity of yourself.

I'm curious about ice cold.

Amazing. Amazing. Greg.

Hi. Hi, Greg. Great to see you guys.

I just had my cold bath and all.

He was sitting in the ice bath when I got here. Because he needs to chill out before I get here. Yeah, yeah. I'm getting on his nerves. Little asshole.

It's out of the show. Out of the show. Yeah, it's out of the show. It's a producer of a Netflix documentary we made with Goop. We were sitting in the car and say, how is your relationship? I said, If I'm a star, he is the black hole.

I swallow stars.

He swallows stars.

That's what I say. I swallow stars.

All the time.

Hey, man.

It's so great. It's so great you guys are working together. That's fantastic. And it's obviously working very well. So I think— It's a challenge. It's absolutely fantastic.

Beautiful.

Wonderful. Actually beautiful.

It's like the East and the West or the North and the South or whatever, you know. They're nice. Or the Palestinians. The Palestinians. Iranians here, Israel, the Hebrews over there. Yeah, come on.

It's not true.

But we got great alchemy in the end. No, it's the love.

You need to have a bit of— you can't have agreement the whole time. You have to have a bit of adversity to build something special. So, exactly. I mean, I think, Enam, you must be pretty strong there.

Around him, I have to be, otherwise I would get stronger.

He's just ignorant.

He still tries to get me into the ice bath. He still tries to get me into the ice bath.

Do you do a lot of the cold as well or not?

Not too much, but I do come sometimes here and take the ice bath with my dad. But you know what my dad did with me? He hold me to my Achilles and dunked me into the ice bath and I never got sick again.

Yeah, when he was like 20. He was never sick. He always laughed after you get them in the cold water, just a brief moment, fully immersed, and then out, and then the energy, you know.

He says, I never stop laughing.

But you know, the funny thing is, my dad, when my dad, when he brought me home from being born from the nursing home, I think it was my second day on the planet. We lived right next to the ocean and the Atlantic. And he took me in. It was like 10 degrees, 12 degrees water. And as a tiny child, I mean, straight into that water. Whoa, same thing. Yeah, yeah.

So I always thought it was child abuse, but so, okay, so other people do it. I don't like them.

Comforting your child too much is abuse. That works like abuse.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's true.

Yeah, we were talking with Lewis Howes, right, about loving people or loving is not like protecting from everything out there, is, is like exposing them for everything out there so they may grow and, and develop.

Make them ready to be trusting them, trusting them to actually, you know, look after themselves a bit. I've done that a lot with my son and it's been terrifying at times with big sharks in the water and that kind of thing. How can you do that? But I mean, but that's, uh, it's, it, you know, people, youngsters need initiations. They need to know their boundaries and be responsible themselves. You know, if you, if you closet them too much, then I agree, they can actually become irresponsible. Yeah, but my son, my son, yeah, he, he was very, very good with the cold when he was like 7, 9 years old, 7 to 9. And then when he hit puberty, found the cold a bit difficult. And now that he's out of that, he can deal with the cold easily again.

Beautiful. Amazing. The thing with my dad, like, always when I had— I climbed a tree, it was never like, oh, get down. He was always saying, go higher, go higher, go higher.

And I never fell.

I never fell. But the thing is that you have to expose your children to that because falling is learning how to fall. Otherwise, when they're adults and they fall, they break 3 legs and they only have 2. So strange, strange logic, right? I got that from you. I saw the documentary. I saw so many similarities in between what the story of which I always heard from my dad, but now I heard from someone else, right? The connection with, with nature and finding it in your backyard.

And this because we've always like been grown up and tracking it down, tracking it down like the Bushmen. I'm tracking down the soul. I'm tracking down the soul. I do it through the science. So I showed how to make a bacteria injected as the first one in medical science, how to bring it down. That's what causes the inflammation.

I'm very, very interested in that story. I know that story, and I'm very interested to know more about how you did that.

Thank you so much for being here, Craig. I just wanted to say how much I love your documentary, man. It's incredible.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So when I was 16, I had a— I made this song, and I'm 62 now. And when I was 16, 50 years ago, I began— I believed that there is something better in the world than what has been offered up till now and what is visible in this chaotic world and frenetic, a rat race, production going on, going on. And where is nature? So I found this in my song because you touched those strings in me when I saw your documentary, that life story, and especially your bond with your son and the ability to respond within, to go back to the sea and feel the intuition to do so, diving into the depth not only of the sea but into yourself. That I want to sing this song for you.

Wonderful. Thank you.

Yes, I think you're just a marvelous person. Amazing person standing up, giving a message, a gem to the people in the world, which has been forgotten, that the beauty is just in your vicinity and you have to dare to get there. But you did it, and you touched these strings to me.

Try, try to find yourself in one way. Or in another. The only thing you can help is your health, that of yours and of others. Wanna try? Hey, try. I don't know why. I remember I was a kid playing down the beach. I didn't worry about a thing. The game was the only thing I reached. With my bucket and with my spade, I knew who caused this to make, and I was satisfied. I had no problems to hide. I say try, try to find yourself in one way or in the other. The only thing you can help is your health, that of yours and of others. I wanna try, hey, try. I don't know why. I never forgot the day my childish simplicity walked away and I was standing there, a little man in man's way. So try, try to find yourself. In one way or in another, the only thing you can help is your health, that of yours and of others. Wanna try? Hey, try! And I know why. Every day, the same again, for that rotten bargain. Working on that machine, producing nitroglycerine, the stuff that destroys our health. You're only me, your help. I say try, try to find yourself. One way or in another, the only thing you can help is your health, that of yours and of others. Wanna try? They try and we know why.

That's the song. When I was 16, 50 years ago, I made this song. And what I saw in that documentary, it without words, it touched those strings within me. That I came across, across my life searching for the soul, for the depth of my sensitivity and my right to feel that instead of being part of a rat race. I want to see and feel who I am and what I am. And that documentary, that did it. So I hope that this documentary, this testimonial of of an experience which goes beyond words reaches that people are still able to comprehend by feeling and recognizing this. This is the way I got into it, and I, yeah, I laureate you. I salute you for what you did. Thank you.

Thank you so much, Wim. I really appreciate those words, especially coming from you. And it's so heartwarming for me to see you working with your son so closely. I'm quite curious to know what his childhood was like and if he, like my son, had to endure some quite interesting challenges.

Yeah, we clash all the time, but we got it. We clash all the time, but we have a great chemistry. It's like there is a no-nonsense in-between-us platform and that we are able to go over there. But a lot of relationship, you indulge a whole lot. Oh, I love you so much. I love you. And nothing is happening. But there is so much happening between him and me. It's like in the beginning, it's when you are under the water, you don't talk. When you go into the depth, you don't talk. You are. And you find always a way to communicate, to fit somebody else's lack. And otherwise you become stronger from within. And that We have endured together the loss of his mother, my wife, in '95, tragically. And the rat race and the way you have to just go on. And it's like you lose something very sensitive, the love of your life, my love of my life, and he, his mother. And that is beyond understanding of words and what we daily are able to comprehend. And we had to go through this and it made us split of each other. And it's a reaction coming from the unknown. But now we are back together and better than ever before and bringing a message from that, from that deep, tragic, tragical moment, bringing a message that we are So bonding in this without words to find a part. We are changing psychiatry. We are changing what is causing disease in people, inflammation that is going— it's worldwide. We are the first ones in medical science. You know why? Because we are trackers. We are trackers of the soul.

It's like my childhood. Like you never let us win. Never gave us space to—

I was playing more than my kids outside.

No, but actually, so I saw this documentary you made like 3, 4 times now, and the whole thing is like the bonding with the child at the end again. And the whole story of yours resonated so much. It actually like, yeah, made me feel back into my childhood where my dad was always like, he was always there. For us, playing with us. He was the playful one, always asking us to get out. But at a certain moment, that was gone. It was gone. There was no dad. It was like for a long time there was no dad till we found each other again, right? Till he— after he— yeah, this whole thing maybe you have with the cold water, he had with the cold water to process his ways, his grief, and finding the comfort within that, the silence. And it's where I found my dad again. And now he also still is always so loud. No silence in between. But so there has been this beautiful thing there, always there, which we never appreciated. I was ashamed of my dad and we needed to be apart. We needed that thing. I don't know. But for 10 years or something, we've been apart and then we came together and now it's just a beautiful thing going on again. That of your documentary also resonated with me so much. It was like incredible. So because did you have something like this going on with your son? Did you, did you lost some, some connection with him in the middle, or what is your story?

Not so much. I never lost connection with him. I never had that kind of extreme adversity that you've had to go through. But I felt that because I'd worked too hard and that rat race, as you say, had worn me down, I wasn't a vibrant enough father. I wasn't able to give him enough play, enough energy. And that was a huge motivation to go back to my childhood place, the Great African Sea Forest, and get that energy back. So that I could take him every day into the water, at least every week, and instill that play and that joy and that primal energy back into him as a child. So we never actually had any separation at all. We always had a good relationship. But it's a different thing having a good relationship, but actually taking a child and taking them into the wild and having incredible experiences with wild nature. I mean, that's what a child is expecting when they're when they come into this world. It's a million years of evolution screaming at them, you know, you must have wild experiences with wild animals on a wild landscape. And when that's taken away from a child, that whole evolutionary memory starts to falter. So that's what I wanted to give him. I wanted to give him a very powerful childhood. And luckily, through the interaction with the environment here, with the cold, with the animals, We've been able to do that, and he's now 19, and we swim every week together, and we've got a very, very close bond, and he's a very stable, sensible, extraordinary young man.

Beautiful.

Yeah, isn't that the case, that if you go, say, in the cold, you become much more— Yeah, you connect, reconnect again with the deeper physiology of ours, which is built up through millions of years, which is there for the take for everybody in the world. But we got disconnected through comfort zone behavior. Then the children, at a certain moment, they just get on a computer and they don't leave it anymore. They get addicted. And yes, that is a great message. I think the cold is quite capable of bringing Sands back to our children and the sands is— it was there for millions of years built up and it brings a direct connection with just being, unconditional being. And that we lost that in the comfort zone behavior. And besides of that, the cold does that. But to bring it in with 8, 9 degrees going into the cold and then do free diving that peace, that is another one that is breathtaking, literally. And then going down there and finding your mind being able to wander with the existent animals over there, with the beings over there. That is a complete entering in a different world. And yeah, we miss out on this. This deep sense and communicate through sensitivity. And sensitivity is nothing— how do you say— sentimental. It's not sentimental. It's beautiful. That it is. It's powerful. When you communicate, you can communicate with butterflies, with turtles, with— By the way, I got 3 turtles here and they are like subtropical beings. But then here in the Netherlands, it's not subtropical. And they go under the ice in the cold water for 6 months. They change. Wow. They change breathing through the skin when they go under. And 6 months later, they just emerge. Man, I'm the Iceman, but what is a turtle? They got so much to teach you. Like you are— I'm sorry, I almost get into French, but it's like we are nitwits. We are nothing compared to those beings. We can't— we actually miss out on spirituality because we are no longer able to understand the beauty of the deep nature, which is able to resonate when we only go and look inside our backyard closely.

And even here in the Netherlands, it's a flat country. It's every square meter of the Netherlands has been touched by human beings, you know. So growing up also, I recognize this thing of being in touch In what way could we be in touch here? Well, even in your backyard, climbing the tree. What they nowadays do with parenting and parenting is anything the kid does, climbing the tree, they say, no, please don't climb the tree because you can fall, or please don't do this because you can fall, or please. So it's so like protecting, but actually with that, yeah, not protecting the child at all.

So disconnecting.

Disconnecting. Yeah.

Yes, I'm into this project now, Greg, here with the garden. I make it an interactive garden, and a garden can be 4 square meters. A garden can be bigger like I have now. But I always had my garden as a place where I interact, where I go outside, say, in the winter in my shorts in the snow. And then sit outside on 4 square meters garden in the city. I felt back in nature. I felt a deep silence coming in, a deep power. And that— so I am now into this project, the interactive garden. The garden should not only be, oh, look how beautiful the garden and the pathways and the flowers and this flower and that. No, a place where you are able to confront your own fears. And so I got ice bathing here. I got rocks here where people jump from 4 meters inside to a cold plunge pool. In wintertime, it's really like 0 degrees and you plunge in. Boom! It's like boom into this primordial existent over millions developed urge to live. And then You don't ask yourself after jumping, "What is life?" No, you are alive. And we miss out on that. We are completely missing out. Besides of that, the beauty of the documentary of what you did with the beautiful being there down there and the sensitivity, it made me cry. It made— because I recognized it. It brought me, boom, into the emotion. And you did it so eloquently, like a poet without words. It was there.

There were words.

Yeah, of course there were words. But the images, the— it's— yeah, not— you can't describe this. The film is a poetry itself to me.

I have a question like We meet quite some people. We met like Wilbur Ockels, who had to go into space to see the tiny little Earth, right? And see how vulnerable it is. Astronaut. Yeah, they get to an epiphany, right? They want to take care suddenly of this planet. We see what we're doing with it, the way we are. Yeah, we actually don't see it when we're in the middle of it, right? So you went away from home. You were in the desert. You learned Yeah, to be in touch with nature there, how to track, etc. But when you got back to your home and diving into your— in the backyard, right, into the kelps and being in connection with the cold, when was the moment that you had this epiphany of, I want to take care of this? Because the movie ends with the Sea Change Project, which I love, to protect the kelp woods, right? When was that moment that you had this epiphany and like, whoa, we have to take care of this? This is like— because this is what makes us live. This, you know, when was that within the movie timeframe?

I think that it's not one moment.

It's—

for me, it was many, many moments over many years. So initially it was just, you know, dealing with the cold. And trying to get used to that. And then building up these relationships, you know, with my incredible octopus teacher, but with many, many other animals. You know, you've only got 88 minutes in a film, and we try to show the essence of the experience, but I have been privileged enough to have also extraordinary experiences and relationships with other wild animals. So Those, those, it's almost like you were saying, uh, when there's a string that's, that's in you, um, what happens is you build up these threads or these strings to all these different animals, some of the tiny little ones, some, you know, huge whales, sharks, cuttlefish, octopus, and all these threads start to build up. And then eventually, like, you know, sometimes when you're close to those animals and you're looking into their eyes and you see that wild intelligence looking at you, and you realize, like you said so, so nicely, when these animals are our teachers, the whole of nature is our teacher. We are built from wild nature. Our entire beings are sustained by wild nature. And then you realize, oh my goodness, I'm not separate from this this environment, and it's the wild biodiversity of the planet that's allowing all of us to breathe and eat from second to second. And it's quite a— it's joyous and uplifting, and it's also very frightening at the same time, because you realize that we're all part of the demise of the Great Mother as well. We're contributing like it or not, even if we're serious about conservation, to things that bring her down. So it's a frightening moment in a way, but it's not one moment of epiphany, it's all these things coming together. And it took probably for me more like 8 years of going into the water every single day, for that to really hit home. And then I'm still learning, I'm still very much a student, you know, at the feet of these creatures, at the feet of this great African sea forest, trying to understand this giant mystery, this tremendous complexity. And it will take more than my lifetime to, you know, even understand a part of it. But you're right, the feeling of wanting to protect it because for the sheer beauty of it, the sheer magnificence, but also for the fact that we are part of it and it keeps us alive from minute to minute.

Yes, yes, absolutely. If I see a city, I see a lot of people not communicating. There is a lot of loneliness in cities. And if you exterminate the diversity, you don't— you will not find your spiritual partner to communicate to get you to understand and raise this neurology of consciousness inside through the communication with those beings. They are beings. We are beings. And we need the love. We need the sensitivity. And they got it. Humans desensitize. Desensitize because of the rat race or whatever excuse they got. It's over. It's done. It's killing the essence of our spirituality. And we have to make that understand. And for that, I think what you did is amazing. I hope that the jam which you are showing through the film, the jam, the possible innate capable of being jam inside everybody, is being recognized through this film, the most widespread possible. We will make sure that it gets throughout our community at least. But there is more to it. The bush trekking, the bush trekking, the simplicity of being in nature and the beauty of finding things and communicating with even tracks and seeing the value of these little things and following it as a density of feeling of spirituality. To me, that is spirituality. And we lost that. We lost that. And with that, we become depressed in the world. There's a spiritual pandemic going on in the world. They think they can track it, their soul and being and development through little monitors of games and computers and iPhones, and it doesn't. It's killing us. It's maybe good for production, et cetera, but we are losing our spirituality. And we as fathers, we have to stand up and bring nature and diversity back to our children. And how you do it like this, And this is a great way. I love it. I do it through DNA tracking. My goal is, like, within 2 years to bring it to billions of people. We are getting close to 100 million, maybe even more now, but I want billions. With that, I'm a father, a simple father who is rising up and saying there's something wrong in the world going on. I'm a father as much as the father in Tehran or as much as the mother in Tehran is as in New York. They only want one thing, something that cannot be guaranteed right now. And therefore, we have— we trackers, we have to stand up and say we will track it down what is wrong. And what is wrong is that the happiness, the strength, and the health In families, the inner nature is not alive. It's not guaranteed. And you can't sell it and you can't buy it. We got to stop the rat race and become humans inside, fully spiritual. And for that, the diversity in the planet is a condition. It needs to be there. So they have to understand that one is connected with the other. Our genetic, say, our genetic identity is coming from nature and our genetic ancestors. We are able to get in connection with that. I mean, we as colonial people, Western people, we have begun to colonize the whole world, taking over countries of people who were living in nature. Natives. And then we took it over and we say— and now immigrants come and we say, no, it's our country. No, you stole it. And now you say that others not able to come in. Man, where is the love? Where is the inner nature? It's completely gone. And this overthinking way of being, producing, polluting, cruelty to animals, the abuse of children, the abuse, wars going on and exploiting more and more desensitized our being. Your thing, your documentary, what you made, your testimonial is amazing, amazing. That is exactly the future because I got hope for the future. The future is where we live in harmony with nature. We are— we understand the value of nature for our own spiritual well-being. And that is what every father and mother should want for its children. We are able to guarantee it because inflammation, which is a disease, we are able to bring it down. We showed this as the first ones in medical science and now in brain scans. We showed how to top-down regulate with our will physical stress just by the will? What is that? That is a body which is connected, mind-body, the way nature meant it to be. And then we suddenly become aware of our being, our spirituality, which is unconditional love for life. And it's there. And now it's the question to bring it past this idiotic rat race kind of system, way of thinking that is like a wall. There is no other way than this way. And we just keep on— these crazy people, they don't know. But it is time to awaken. And your documentary does this. I do it my way. And together we are so much stronger. So yeah, there's— I'm always ranting like this because I'm a revolutionary man.

I'm a revolutionary.

I wanted to, I wanted to ask both of you, uh, that extraordinary, um, ability you seem to have, and you can even seem to teach it to others, where you had that pathogen or flu virus injected into you and then you managed to suppress that. Can you explain that in a simple way, how that actually happens? I'm very interested to know You know, how do you actually do that? What is the physics of that? I know you had some doctors and scientists monitoring you. How does that actually work?

Yeah, you use deep breathing technique. Very simple. Fully in, letting go. Fully in, letting go. Something we never do because we live in a comfort zone behaviour. So our breathing becomes shallow. Now, this is a breathing which would happen if you go out in the cold in a T-shirt or like yourself going into the sea. You begin to become much more in check with the deeper physiology of yourself. It needs to come up. And that is the adrenal axis. Because of the deep breathing, you ignite the adrenal axis. Because what happens when there is danger?

You begin to fight or flight. Hyperventilation.

Exactly. And we do this controlled. So after 16,134 people undergoing an endotoxin experiment, which is a part of E. coli bacteria injected, which causes always sickness like nausea, uncontrolled shivering, headaches, all over agony, muscle aches, things like that, vomiting, and that for 3 to 6 hours. 16,134 people had undergone the same experiment, all became sick. And then suddenly 12 people I trained, they did not. 100% school did not become sick or very mildly. And then they showed—

And is it the breathing, the breathing that does that? Mostly the breathing?

In acute, the acute stress caused by the bacteria injected is able to be manipulated or suppressed by the breathing technique. Within a quarter of an hour, we bring down effectively the inflammation. So all these people don't become sick. We got 4 million people died of COVID since last year now worldwide. But every year, 60 to 70 million people die of inflammation. And we now found a way to effectively bring down the inflammatory markers, which is inflammation. Down within 15 minutes. And that is a message we got for every person in the world. Listen, we alienated from nature, thus we become disconnected with the deeper mechanisms of our own physiology, which is a logical thing. So deep breathing makes you able to bring nourishment, to bring activation, It's all a logic kind of a natural mechanism. And I only— what I only did is bringing it to science and to show it. There is a spiritual pandemic, as I said before, in the world, depression. When you go into the cold water, the lack of noradrenaline in depression is vital. And together with the dopamine, lack. And what happens when you go into cold water, you raise the noradrenaline with 530% and you raise the dopamine with 250%. So that is what is called— it's a direct pill without side effects. And people should— the children should learn this all over in the world. 'Cause now inflammation is killing us and stress is killing our mental states, causing mental disorders of all kinds. And we are able to battle that just by cold water and breathing for acute stress. When you feel anxiety or panic or this, you gotta go on a very important presentation, you know, 'Just do some breathing for 10 minutes and it's gone.' Why? They are not— nobody's advocating these natural methods because it would kill the pharmaceutical industry big time. Yeah, I'm sorry, guys, but even the pharmaceuticals are humans. I tell you this, what we bring is very good for every person in the world, left wing, Right wing, it's the bird that needs to fly. And we are bringing it a message from nature.

I think it's like the way I understand from my dad, it's like a natural way. You know, it's our immune system is built to fend off disease. That's why we have an immune system. We go so regulated nowadays.

We—

the way we think we eat is healthy or what we put inside of our own body. The way we breathe, what we breathe. We're so disconnected from our natural environment, actually, that we get all these strange diseases, right? Or that we can get the flu and it will bear us down for 3 weeks because we need that rest. We're in this rat race, like my dad says. So it's actually something natural belonging to us. But within this Western society, we need We're very much into our head instead of into our emotions. And our emotions has to do also with our fight and flight response. That's the same part, right? A little bit lower. Yeah. And so because we're so much in our thinking way, we need techniques like, okay, you do 30 times in and out and then you did this. But actually it's a natural way of behavior when a dog or an animal feels down and needs to recuperate, they breathe fast and they stop breathing and they do all these things because it influences the systems they have within. And these are built after millions of years, beautifully built. But when you neglect them constantly, hey, things can get in. So is it just the breathing or is it the cold? No, I think these are just tools. These are just tools for people to be able to use and to connect with what they already have inside themselves. At least how I understand.

Yes. And I'm sorry.

Thank you.

The physical mechanism of this is simple. We do breathing techniques that enable us to become very alkaline. And you only have the urge to breathe when you become acidic. And then you get the breathing trigger coming in, and that's why we breathe, to balance the pH within the blood. Now, when we do this breathing, like in freediving as well, you learn to do that controlled, you make the alkalinity of the pH level going up, and so much that you are able to go long-term without breath, without even air in your lungs. This is the technique. The last breath we take in, we are very alkalized, and then— and stop with empty lungs. And people are able to do that for 1 minute, 2 minutes, 3 minutes, 4 minutes. Without air in the lungs even. So alkaline is the blood that the breathing trigger is not there. But what happens when the breathing trigger is not there? After 1.5 minutes, in the brainstem, it sees it as danger. It's the primitive parameters connected to the breathing and oxygen intake and all is residing in the brainstem. Very primitive. It's reactionary. So when the person is not— after 1.5 minutes is not breathing, then the fight and flight mechanisms are on. And what happens then? The adrenal axis is acutely being activated. Deeply. That means pituitary gland, hypothalamus, and adrenal glands. And that makes you boom. The level of adrenaline that shoots out at that moment is much more than people who will go for the first time into a bungee jump. So it's really a shot of adrenaline that goes through. And what happens with the danger you become so strong while lying, just lying on a couch or in bed. And you do this breathing. So the adrenaline levels are so high that it resets the body of any danger. And what could that be? That could be emotional stress, mental stress, bacterial stress, viral stress. Any kind of stress doesn't serve the functionality in the time of danger. So the adrenal axis activation caused by these breathing techniques makes that activated, and then boom, the virus or bacteria injected, no chance. It's amazing. It's a shortcut into the deepest part of our brain and to get a hold of these primitive mechanisms known for millions millions of years, but now we are able to get there consciously. And that was unknown in science.

And if you had to start training someone now who had no experience like you both have, how long would it take them to get to a place where they can fight off a pathogen like that?

10 minutes.

Wow. Okay, so you don't have to have a lot of cold training and masses of years of breathing and so on. It actually works very fast.

Yes, sir. And I get people 80 years when they are motivated to come to my place in the workshop, etc. And in one afternoon, 80 years, never been in the cold, sitting for 2 minutes in icy water, no problems. I got cases that people came to me. I said, wow, that was great. 82 years. That was great. I just had 4 coronary bypasses. Yeah, of course. Man, I almost got a heart attack out of it.

Disclaimers. That's the moment I place disclaimers.

No, but what we teach people imminently, very fast, we are able to reconnect with our innate capacity, our innate deep physiology. It is there. And because people don't want to do the work, just come here. Just go to the kelp forest together with Greg, and within an afternoon, you will be able to do so much more than you before thought possible. And the sensations are great. When you go into the sea, open water, we say open water in— if you take cold showers on distance by internet. If I'm close to them, I just, let's go on the rock. We are now excited and we go into there and they jump in and they boom. You don't need to ask the people, hey, are you okay? Is this nice? No, it's bloody nice. It's amazing. You know, that is no words anymore. That is that feeling, that deep existence. Instant innate capacity of our brainstem being there without words. The purpose, the soul, life. There we are.

Yeah, actually, because you are not doing these breathing techniques, you're doing deep dive techniques, right? To be able to, uh, go underwater. And we also always say never do these breathing techniques of my dad, like hyperventilating and then go underwater, because you can get the shallow water blackout. That's— you faint below water, and then when you wake up, you swallow water, you drown. Right. But so have you seen a correlation in between going back into the cold water and doing these, being aware of your breath and your feeling and feeling good or feeling sick or maybe not becoming sick anymore because of it?

And I noticed a massive difference. That's why I'm interested in everything you're saying. I've noticed that— I mean, I used to, before I did this every day, I used to often get colds and flu and that kind of thing. I can't even remember when I last had colds or flu. Beautiful. Um, so it made a huge difference to my immune system. Yeah, even cuts. I used to, you know, you get cuts in the ocean quite a lot, especially when it's rough, and I used to get infections. It doesn't seem to be too much of a problem anymore. A lot of old injuries, knees, that kind of thing became much, much better. So I definitely noticed a massive difference. I don't do the rigorous breathing that I'm hearing you talking about, but I do breathing techniques, but more gentle ones. Not near the water though. As you say, it's very dangerous to do any kind of in a heavy breathing in the water. You've got to be very careful, well away from the dives. And then I do in summer when the water temperature increases in the ocean, I have a funny old deep freeze that I've modified into an ice box and I break the ice on the surface and I get in there because you start to miss the cold, you know, you miss the proper cold.

Whoa.

So I have experimented with that and I found it to be very good. But I have— I didn't have much of an idea of how long it was safe to stay in the icebox. It's close to 0 degrees because there's a thick layer of ice on the top. And I built it up. I did 20 minutes, and then I— one day I did over 30 minutes, but I didn't feel too good after that for 3 days. I think maybe I pushed the immune system too much. What would your advice be on length of going in icebox, that kind of thing?

If you go like 5 minutes, more than enough to do the thermogenesis, the deep thermogenesis. That means activation through cold, the deeper system— of the deeper systems and make them flow, make them activated, exercise. We got millions of little muscles in our vascular system. And through a couple of minutes into the ice water, which we only recommend to do when people begin. Start with a cold shower, like 15 seconds, then build it up to 30. And it goes naturally. And within 10 days, 2.5 minutes, you will long for it to go in because it gives so much more energy and your heart rate is going down. That means stress goes down. Energy goes way up. And that is because the millions of little muscles are being stimulated and exercised and they help the blood flow go through. And with that oxygen, nutrients and vitamins reach to the cells much more, which creates much more energy. It's all logic. And they should introduce this from day one in the primary school because this—

In Russia.

Yeah, but we need to bring— But they say after Putin, I'm the most popular man in Russia. And that says something. That is in the country where cold immersion is a good thing. You know, it's a tradition to do. The thing is, what happens with 30 minutes into icy water, that is— pushing it. You are pushing the capacity of the constriction around the vital organs, you must have been trembling later and shivering, shivering and things like that, maybe because the core body temperature is going to mix after going out. It gives a trigger to release the constriction around the vital parts and thus the surface temperature of your body, which is very low, and the blood which is resident over there is very low is going to mix with the core is when you begin to— it's a pathetic mechanism, the shivering. It only raises the core body temperature 1 degree through an hour. So what do you do when you go into icy water? Build it up slowly. And 5 minutes is more than enough. To do the thermogenesis exercising to the best of your vascular system to get the greatest of benefits. Sometimes, though, I am also like— I like 5 minutes. I like— sometimes I want to challenge my mind. And when I challenge my mind, I show through my mind I'm able to manipulate my vascular system, which is 100,000 kilometers inside, and my heart rate and my metabolism, metabolic activities in the body, and go into the ice, icy water. Like last 3 months ago, I became 62 and I went for 62 minutes into icy water. And I had a good time. But I say don't force. See it as a mental exercise, of an exercise of the mind. And then it's different. This on a daily basis is not good. I mean, it's too much.

I want to add something because—

Imagine.

Yeah, we are dealing with so much different kind of people. Everyone is different. Different, right? For one is 5 minutes, for the other one is 1 minute, for other one is 10 minutes, which they can prolong to. It's always gradually built up and do it the way that if you get out of the bath, you can warm up without shivering. That's the great exercise. The moment, just the moment before. Yes. So for someone that can be 5 minutes, for others that can be 2 minutes already too much forcing it. So always without force, right? Because Once you have the vasoconstriction going on and the core protects itself from the outside body, from the extremities, it maintains 37 degrees, but the rest can cool off too much while you feel, hey, you're okay because your core body functions are being protected, right? But the moment they open up again and the cold blood mixes with the warm blood, you can get into hypothermia, and that's what you want to avoid. So yeah, it depends.

Yes, wonderful.

That's great information. Thank you. I think your wonderful dog agrees with what you just said.

Yeah, she's always just chilling. This is our teacher, always chilling, always relaxed.

Take it easy, taking it easy.

She's already 14 years and still beats my dad going into the mountains. Oh yeah, by 3 times. And he's the Iceman, you know. Can you imagine?

Compared to animals, we are able to be taught so much. And if you want to learn about the mind, then yes, there is a, as they say, the unlimited power of the mind. Go to animals, learn from animals. In the kung fu, if you see these guys that are doing amazing stuff, it comes from animals, from a crane, from a grasshopper or what is it, the praying mantis, the tiger, the panda, the Kung Fu Panda. And I mean, the real things, they come when you look close into nature. Then you find powers of your mind to go beyond your conditioned mind, your pathetic little mind that is serving production in the world and bridges and rockets to the moon, et cetera. But where is the happiness? Where is the strength? Where is the health? Where is the real spiritual expanding your consciousness and the unlimited power of the mind, the love? Where is the love and how can we guarantee? We found ways to do that. Through the cult, you have learned to experience a new world, to go into a new world, communicate, bring it on, to make it understandable and visible for everybody in the world.

It's incredible.

Which is far more than your ego is able or is needing for being. Hey, I'm here. I am. No, you bring something and that is love. You bring understanding and sensitivity back to the people in understanding something they can identify with, which— and it doesn't matter what— how much mind control, how much exercise. I mean, think of the mother who is lifting up a car because her child is underneath. That is the innate capacity of our mind is to find the soul. And now we gotta bring it. We gotta bring it through the science into the sense. And whatever it takes— hey, I'm growing older. I'm bloody strong. You know why? Because I listen to nature. At least I'm outside. I got a gym here with stones. I just made it outside, outdoor gym when it is raining, when it is snowing. I got an outdoor gym that is changing always from backgrounds. Amazing. And experience in weather conditions of the same thing what you do with stones is completely different. And it's amazing what the weather is able to do, how simple in the backyard of where I live, I'm able to find the depth of myself. And not only the spiritual depth and sensitivity, I'm fucking strong. I'm sorry, that's French, but it is really there. I get the strongest guys here, they cannot do what I do. How is that? Because I listen to nature. And in nature, you can be using your mind in nature. That means exercising in nature and learn to communicate is learning that the mind is like 7, 8 times stronger than muscle power.

Hmm.

Extraordinary. I got a 61-kilo stone, big rock, and it's attached to metal, to a cord. And then I pull it up. It's connected to a branch in a tree and it's going down. It doesn't fall because the tree is stronger than the 61 kilos being pulled at. So there I am. And then in the beginning, 20 times was difficult. Right now I'm doing 150 times. Why? Because I built— I engage my mind outside, not in a gym. In the gym, people are sweating and stinking and there's a lot of aerosols and a lot of COVID And man, get out.

Yeah, so with the documentary you made, it blew my mind. I really felt like coming home, like I want to take care of this planet. I want to take care of it because of us, you know, and because if we don't take care of it, we won't be able to exist.

It's—

you said it very beautiful. It's our immune system. It's our out there, right, of the planet. And to show us like, hey man, get outside and get in touch with it and get the emotion from it or be able to feel again, right? So not everyone has Netflix, and I salute Netflix for bringing out documentaries like this because incredible. But you also made a book, right, around it, a picture book, which we had the pleasure to go through. I wasn't able to read everything. Yeah, he wants to reach billions and I have to do the work. So that's what I do in my free time even. But can you tell us something about that one? Because I saw the picture.

He's my son. Mind-blowing. Sons always tell things and they sacrifice their fathers for whatever is going on. That's natural. Good.

Yeah, thanks, thanks very much for asking about the book. Yes, it's called Underwater Wild, and it's written by myself and my wonderful friend Ross Freilich. And we've been diving together for years as friends, and we just had this, you know, real strong passion to try to document some of these experiences. And the subtitle for the book, when we first had it, was Primal Joy and the Art of Underwater Tracking. And that is kind of the essence in some ways of the book, this incredible joy and vitality that Wim is literally, I mean, he's just an incarnation of that, his excitement and everything, that vitality. That comes with primal activity. We're very interested in that. And then, of course, there's a lot of detail in the book about how to track animals underwater and what that does to the human psyche. And then the rest of the book's also about a friendship forged in the wild between, you know, two people. And about— Ross also has a lovely young son, So it's also about father and sons, the book. So it's really, it's trying to get across how important immersion in wild nature is. I don't have to convince you guys of that. And what that does to the psyche and what that does to relationships. And it goes into many animals that we've encountered. And it's kind of a, in some ways, a backstory to the octopus film, gives much more detail on a lot of the details behind that story and a lot of the other animals that we encountered. So it's coming out, I believe, in November in America through HMH, our wonderful publishers. And it's just part of our mission to try to slowly and gently promote this incredible wild system that keeps us alive.

Beautiful.

Yes, you are the future. You are the call from the future to this moment. And we are, we are standing up and rising here and now and say it and give testimonial to there is a solution. There is deep understanding of how to tackle modern-day problems in this world. And it goes through nature, as we have been talking through all this podcast now. It comes directly when I see you and feel you. So that comes directly, that comes up. And we are the future, and we bring love. We bring love and understanding, non-sentimental love, a love that is strong, that is having deep sense and purpose unconditionally there. And it's there, and it goes through the sea. It goes through the nature. Goes like the Bushmen. I'm doing that right now, the Garden of Eden project, or we are doing that, bringing water wells to— with the Maasai in Tanzania, Kenya, near the Serengeti and Maasai Mara. The circle of life is going there, and all the zebras, they pass there because they have to go to the salt lakes. But the salt lakes, the minerals, they are outside of the park. They don't matter where it is. They need to go to the salt lake. So then they come into domesticated places and they begin to fence. And what we do is bring water so— and they can use it for the cattle and wildlife is able to use it. And with that, we want to create, I mean, hundreds and thousands of zebras and wild wild beasts, elephants, etc., they create a lot of fertilizer and together with the water will fertilize the country. That is the future. And with that, we want to bring tourism over there that is going in the land of the lion without cars, just with the rangers, with the Maasai rangers to become natural again. To feel this natural— like the Maasai, they have no religion. They have the lion. They have a respect. They have value. They have this feeling deeply inside of being poised, in balance. And that balance, that doesn't need too much doctors, hospitals, cars, etc. They got this value. And this, we lost this value. We are buying and selling and selling and buying and being dependent on outside forces. When we become sick, we don't know who we are anymore.

But that's what I loved of your documentary and of the pictures within your book. Maybe not the book because— but your documentary is comparison with the other, all the other nature movies movies is nature movies are observing, and within this documentary of yours is like the interaction with nature is so much needed and gives so much, and we have to take care of that. So highly recommendable to watch it, to get the book, because the book, it gives you— it's like a place to dream away, to get in connection there where you are within your city boundaries. It gives you A story to dream on and take it back into nature.

Yes. So it's a ticket back into nature and people will take it because people are not stupid, only stupefied. And through this, they get a ticket and they know this is it. They will realize through this documentary what to do. They will be right. They will recognize by feeling. By emotions they feel when they see it. And then they think, they meditate on this. I mean, it comes naturally from the inside and they get their epiphanies. And by the way, by the way, this method, what we are doing with the cold water and all, our oldest participant is 99 years old. It's never too late to start to find bondage with nature outside again. And it's very rewarding. You just feel great. Her comment was, yeah, I like it so much I taught my sister, 97. And you know, there is no excuse. There's no excuse for nobody not to do this. This brings health, happiness, spirituality. Understanding of who you are and what you are in the depth. There it is. That's you, who you are, what you do to me, and what you caused in me. And the song said it all also, yeah. You know, when you are young, you're simply there, but then you lose it, and this is the way how to come back.

Thank you so much for being here, Greg. It was really a pleasure. Is there anything you can— How can our listeners find you? Where can they find you? Where can they find about your projects?

They can go to seachangeproject.com. That's our website. And we are a not-for-profit organization that's very, very dedicated to ocean conservation, mostly through storytelling and through science. And we've got a wonderful young team of scientists, writers, storytellers who are constantly working on this and are dedicated to ocean conservation. So that's, that's the best, the best way to find it.

We'll bring it forward.

Wonderful. But it's such a great— I mean, I obviously have followed your work for a long time and have been inspired by it. So it's so wonderful to talk, you know, face to face, even over the computer. And thank you for all the incredible strength and vitality you've brought through your work and to so many people. Bless you guys. Thank you.

Likewise. Thank you so much.

Wow.

Bless you.

Bless you. And once again, you touched us in the deepest. And sometimes I say, guys, I've been shouting out in this about we can change the world and we for the good, for the love and shouting like a crazy man alone. But, and then I say, "Please all stand up." And then everybody stands up like 1,000 or thousands or whatever. And now I'm not alone anymore. And to me, people like yourself is like building up the Acropolis again, the new philosophies, the new philosophers, and we have rebuilt the temple of our soul. Yes.

Wonderful.

Thank you, guys. Lovely chatting.

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