20 Sept 2021 · 72 min
In this episode of the Wim Hof Podcast, host Wim Hof, his son Einar, and guest Lewis Howes discuss their shared mission to reach billions of people with transformative practices. The conversation weaves through the Wim Hof Method (breathing, mindset, cold exposure), personal obstacles, family dynamics, leadership challenges, and the power of vulnerability. They recount a recent retreat in Poland that highlighted emotional openness among strong, masculine participants, and explore how documentaries (e.g., The Octopus Teacher, Seaspiracy) and media partnerships (BBC series) can amplify their message. Both hosts share personal stories of trauma, breakup, and the struggle to let go of control, emphasizing gratitude, beginner’s mind, and the importance of love over fear. The dialogue repeatedly returns to the practical question: what single obstacle must each of them overcome to scale their impact, and what concrete actions can they take in the next 30 days. The episode ends with mutual appreciation, a call to accountability, and an invitation for listeners to engage with The School of Greatness and Wim Hof’s platforms.
Chapters
And what about, what about you, Wim? What's the one thing that holds you back? The big challenge, the obstacle in your way to reach those billions in the next couple of years?
What's the thing? Yeah, I think it is very little people can make me shut up. And you just did.
That was the longest you've gone without speaking.
Yeah, there you got it. He holds 26 world records for achievements that for most people seem impossible and dangerous. Nicole was my teacher. To me, it's like God.
He might well be one of the most unique humans currently alive.
Wim Hof is changing scientists' understanding of how the body works. I created a method. The components are breathing, mindset, and cold.
Wim Hof, the Iceman.
Hi guys, I'm Wim, Wim Hof, and every time I go into the unknown, through my podcasts, exploring, exploring life into the depth, breaking the ice to go where nobody has gone before.
You're listening to the Wim Hof Podcast, a Monk Studios original.
And on my side, my son Einar. He's here to keep me on track, which he's not able to do, by the way, but He will try it, and together we got a great chemistry. And we got Anne, our producer. She makes things really work.
On this episode, Wim talks to his good friend Lewis Howes, who lives by his message: go out there and do something great. And he's doing great, all right. He became a media sensation for empowering people and spreading greatness across the globe. Nowadays, he's a successful lifestyle entrepreneur, a performance business coach, a New York Times bestselling author, and his podcast, The School of Greatness, has over 4 million downloads since it started in 2013.
So that today is Lewis coming back finally after this whole corona pandemic. We had a great time in Poland.
Yeah, not only in Poland. I know him from the Angels.
Yeah, but I—
Los Angeles.
But in Poland is where we opened up a little bit, right?
And, and, uh, yeah, and he opened up, and he opened up, and the whole group of guys, like, being, uh, very vulnerable, very emotional with each other, very the way people are really are in the depth, which they cannot let go. And through the cold, you have to let go. It's what they have met. Themselves in the depth. It was amazing.
It was incredible.
Beautiful, eh? Such a rife people, strong people, the NFL and big people, strong, a lot of muscles and this and very established and all. And that's all like boys.
That has to do with their past also and with their past trauma, right? Yeah. You don't become strong and you have to prove everything to what— like yourself and I maybe. Yeah, I'm very curious where this goes to.
Wait a minute. With me, myself, and I?
Oh, I thought I was part of it.
It's a lot of personalities here going on.
Let's go with Lewis.
But yeah, Lewis. Love it.
It will be Wim himself, Lewis Howes, and him.
Lewis how?
Howes.
Oh, Howes. Yeah. Lewis, don't you think we just have the answer of the future?
Do I think we have the answer? Sure. But is everyone else willing to listen to the answer?
And that's the question. How to reach people with sense, which we already found the School of Greatness. I mean, that's the way we should educate our children to become great human beings, as we innately are capacitated, all children from being innocent with the ability to connect with our happiness. Strength and health inside the school of greatness, what you preach, what you show, and that should be in the schooling system.
I agree.
So I'm looking for means. And now I really wanted to ask you, how are you doing it? Always you are so loaded and driven to be so interrogative with people going into the depth, which we actually want to teach children never to lose.
How am I doing it? I mean, I think I was just always a curious mind. So for me, I always wanted to know the truth of everything. And I've always— and everyone has got their version of the truth. So I'm always just curious about people. But I'm glad you guys are doing a podcast finally. So now you can start spreading your message as well to more people.
Yeah, good. We had some really interesting people like—
Russell was on.
Russell Jordan Peterson.
Yeah.
Yeah. Uh, Cesar Millan. He's great.
Yeah, Ali Tabrizi from Seaspiracy. And they're coming Thursday. We have, uh, um, my octopus teacher.
No way! Yeah, man, that was an amazing documentary.
Beautiful.
And you see, documentaries like that we need to make. Like you— we made last time in Poland about the vulnerability of real men are vulnerable. And yet they are so strong, they go into freezing icy waters, make leaps of faith inside, and change. Within one week, we show that what we never have been taught in comes together naturally. And just in one week, challenge yourself one week and you come together as a brotherhood, as a motherhood, as friends, as the love knows its way to the light. And I'm into that. But so they are making this Hollywood film the next month that they are going to begin about this. I think Hollywood is a great marketing tool, a Hollywood film. And then we had propositions from some producers to make like 36 episodes in the world.
Wow.
6 with the BBC, wherein stars and presenters, important people leaders, people who are able to be identified with, transform within, like us in Poland, transform into their love, into their light, what they should never have lost since they were young. And these people have certain kinds of ailment, and I will show that the love and the law and the light is not gone, it's here. And And more even now with this pandemic, with this fear, with this being paralyzed and arrested and nobody knows how to— who is talking about the immune system? Something that is given naturally to us. Who is talking about that what we got inside to awaken to greatness, to awaken to greatness every day? And so, yeah, man, I want to know your story because I'm within— I tell you, within 2 years, I will reach billions of people. And if you reach billions of people through the heart and bring autonomy, awakening to their innate capacity, nothing more, it is not something that was lost, suddenly awakened, and we will bring it. You do it that way. I do it this way. But I'm very curious. How you are doing it.
Yeah. Well, I'm happy to share. Yeah.
I heard this billion— reaching billion people is the sixth guest Lewis is, and it's the sixth time you're bringing this forward. It doesn't change.
And every time with the BBC, it's like a mantra. A mantra only works until the moment that it works. And until that, you keep on going. That's neurological investment, I call it. Keep on going with your mind into the same direction because your mind is power. And that power, if it builds up every moment, it becomes like a drop that finally is able to break the wall.
Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, with the BBC, actually, we're still in contracts and negotiations, you know, 6 episodes. Yes. And almost there.
But Yeah, he does it for me. I'm a visionary and he does the logistics. Okay, great. And he's a great hang drum player.
He's great. Yeah, I started listening to hang drum more and more, just like meditation music in the morning. And I was— I did a sound bath a few weeks ago and a guy had a hang drum and I was like, I should buy one and just start playing with it because I was just so inspired by you playing it. It was awesome.
It's actually to get the tone out of it. It goes quite fast. You don't really need to be a musician or something, you know, like, right. I am not.
So it's simple stuff.
Yeah, simple stuff. And you already can get really relaxed.
You know what is talent? It's like on stage I say, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a professor. I'm better. You know, that's talent. When he plays hang drum, he isn't a musician, etc. He only plays better. No, that is my opinion.
He's great.
He is my son. And, you know, you got to love your son and all that. But we clash all the time. Hey, you know the story of me.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
You know the story from inside out as we have been together.
But how have you guys been since Poland? Has it been—
Lewis, that was my question I wanted to ask you, but I couldn't get through him.
I'm sorry, I'm going to stop now.
No, no, it's great. It's good. It's good.
It's great. As long as it is great, it serves also Lewis. Yes.
Yeah, of course.
School of greatness. Yes. There you got him.
No, Lewis is here not to become great. He's just here to chill out.
Lewis is a great guy. That's what it is. He's a beautiful big man. And he stood there on the podium. I was just a little guy.
We should show that pic. Man, it has been crazy.
Did you guys get the— did you guys get the book I sent?
No. Oh, the, the, the demasked, uh, mask?
No, I sent you— I sent you a book from Poland, a photo book.
Oh yeah, we got that one.
Oh yeah, you got it.
Oh yeah, okay, yeah, already.
Okay, I thought the book from you to read. I said, oh, okay, yes, yes, they were great.
Lovely, lovely, lovely. You know, exactly that book now is going to be sort of the format for all these episodes. These people from the BBC and they think they are making up their format, but they actually have been looking to the sources. Yeah. And that is exactly that what you made.
Funny thing. Funny thing how the television world works, man.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
It's a funny thing. They come. They steal everything. No, not steal. Like they come.
They say, yeah, we want to talk with you, want to work with you. 'Let's create something together,' and then at the end they come with a talent release instead of a cooperation or, you know, a co-author thing. No, yeah, doesn't matter as long as the message gets out there.
Absolutely.
But since Poland, insane, man. It was really— I was actually very— we were very blessed to be able to live that week, right? Because afterwards with the whole pandemic, it was great, nice people around you, but has been like a roller coaster.
Yeah, I know, man, it's insane.
But have you been experiencing that also with your live events? Have you been sitting at home? Have you— what have you been doing?
Yeah, I mean, luckily I just came to the studio every day and was recording, you know, trying to help people the best way I could through Zoom and stuff like that. But finally it opened up, I guess, a week ago in LA with no masks, so it's been nice to finally get back out there and have more people in studio. So I'm just very grateful to get back into it.
What is it if all the people live with a mask? Then you see the pandemic and you see all these restrictions.
But most people, most, most people are living with masks before they put on the mask.
Exactly, double masks.
And they would never— yeah, they never revealed themselves fully. They were putting on a portrayal of an image they wanted to be in front of other people. And, uh, that's hard to— it gets exhausting after a while. So you've got to learn to be more pure love and pure light, like you said, Wim.
Yeah, I think the, you know, the guy with the octopus, my octopus teacher, that shows where he gets a burnout in the— and he begins to— and he gets back where he met himself into the depth spontaneously, like when he was a young kid. And he feels that the solution is over there. And then the wonder begins.
Absolutely. Where does he live?
South Africa.
Is he doing Zoom with you guys?
Yes, like this. Like this.
I would love to interview him if you guys are—
Yeah, of course, I'll connect you.
Oh yeah, yeah, sure.
It's very nice actually, because we saw the documentary together and then I had to send him a message, right? And he was doing also ice baths. Inspired by— inspired my dad. It was like the small world, right? Oh yeah, shit. Yes, yes. Oh wow, that's cool, man.
Billion people, Wim, let's go!
Yeah, yes. Thing is, everyone— 100 million people we reach now, and now we go for billions. Imagine.
I like it.
Yeah, if billions of people go into a frigid water, they have to let go. The mask and all. They have to learn to adapt from inside. And that gives them a much greater control over who they are and what they are. People have a mask because they don't have a control. That's their pathetic way to control everything. Now, when you lose it and you awaken from the inside through, say, for example, the cold, then suddenly you have much greater power. You don't need a mask anymore. You become enjoyable, you become like a kid, driven by life stronger than your thoughts are able to control you. So I'm asking my allies, my co-lightworkers, knights, the new men who are able to be vulnerable, and hey, we can do so much. Then what can we do together? So much more. So I'm just asking once again, where you get your inspiration of?
Oh man, I get it from, from you, Wim. All my inspiration. No, I get it from—
Vice versa. Yeah, powerful.
I get it, I get it from knowing what I'm capable of creating and knowing how much I still get to learn in life. And the more I think I know something, I try to just step into the beginner's mind even more from that place because I realize I don't know that much. And so that's why I keep asking questions. That's why I keep trying to meet different people and learn. And I'm going back to the basics in so many things that I love. From salsa dancing, I'm taking salsa lessons again. And I'm taking basic lessons to relearn something that I've already mastered. I'm taking Spanish classes 3 days a week, and I feel like a beginner's mind because it's something new that's challenging for me. I'm doing, you know, boxing lessons twice a week from one of the top trainers in the world, and the first couple months I was really bad. And so I like doing things that force me to grow, get out of my comfort zone, because otherwise I'm— the things I'm doing on a day-to-day basis, I'm pretty good at already. So I need to continue to learn from new people with new beliefs, new ideas, and put myself in situations that are extremely uncomfortable because it gets me to a place of humility. It keeps me humble. It keeps me hungry. And it keeps me just really happy because when you're learning, you're growing and you're happy and you're very happy in that, that place. It's when I stop growing, it's when I feel like a sense of stress and overwhelm and anxiety. But I always want to have a beginner's mind.
Wow. Yeah, that is great. I think we are born to have a neurology that keeps on growing. It's like expanding consciousness. The flip side of that is narrowed consciousness, right? Never get into a dead end within yourself because you become a zombie. You go the trodden path like everybody, everything, sort of. And the greatness is there that you— if you are and stay like a child's neurology, which is fresh and it goes and it is stronger than what it thinks, it's driven and it runs like crazy. Sometimes it jolts just out of bliss, pure bliss. We should have those experiences because that's real mind control. When we get past the thinking brain into other parts of the brain. As they say, 16% we can control. But I say we can control 100, because we got 100 not for nothing. After millions of years, we got a brain. It's not a hump of meat. It is a thing that should be exercised, that should be lived within with blood flow and conscious neural activity. But through our schooling, we get numbed into a certain direction, and great part of our own brain is on standby but not living. So to be humble and to go to be hungry is a great thing. It is absolutely the first step into the greatness of the wonder of our mind, the unlimited power of our mind. Now, Now, if I go from there, the power of the mind and how to control it, 'cause we have shown that in brain scans, suddenly we are able to learn to control that what symbolically makes a king a king, and that is the crown. And a queen a queen, that is the crown. And the crown comes from the Roman Empire. It's called the corona radiata. The radiant crown. And now within the neurology, it's a great set of nerves, the white mass, which is able now through top-down regulation to enlighten, to make the crown happening. And that is neurology. That is willful control, top-down regulated. And with that, we are able to get into Wow, I'm into this. So into the DNA. And in 2 months, we get the results from San Francisco University, top researchers on board. And they will show that through hormetic exercising, what we did, what we did in Poland, jumping into freezing icy water, going for 10 minutes into the mountains and do crazy stuff, looks like. No, we show that the corona radiata, that we feel like kings, that we feel like queens, that we are from the inside able to surrender, to let go of our attitude and climb into the purpose of our lives, which is a soul uninhibited, into the unlimited power of our mind. And now we have solved it. It is the corona, the king, the guru, the best, the enlightenment. We got him. It's the corona radiata. From the corona radiata comes love and listening, receiving. That is going into the DNA. And into the DNA, there are the encrypted genetical codes of our ancestors. Once we realize who we are and how our brain works, we are able to serve our genetical past and all the problems from the past. Thus, we are able— those are proteins in our genes— we are able with our neurosignaling, our mind consciously, to tap in through the corona radiata into the DNA and connect with the genetical past, which has never been shown, of course, but now we got 'em. And we got it through icy water and through these crazy breathing techniques, which makes us go deeper than our comfort zone. But there is the greatness of life present. And you know what we then do? When we get into the DNA, When we serve something else, we care. We enter into love. And that's why we are here, to love and to serve others who suffer and take away the unnecessary suffering. That's what we do. And that's what you do. And that I salute, that greatness I salute.
So we found it, that being able to develop yourself within something like Lewis does, OK, searching for, hey, I want to— improve my salsa, something that I'm not able to do yet, but being able to grow therein, that would be the same thing as what you're talking about with the ice or the breathing, right?
Exactly. Only I had to go the crazy way, losing my way under the ice and going in shorts up Mount Everest to the death zone and finding out that—
Different way.
What is this all? What is this all? And then getting into laboratory settings. But I go there and I follow the hunch, the intuition that brought me into the, finally into laboratory settings. And I was able to do what in society was known not to be possible by humans. So we, like inflammation, we can bring it down. Why? Because I went into the uncomfortable. My soul search was stronger than my mind. And therefore, I could go where nobody had gone before because that's it. The soul is something always newly to be recognized and to be found, to go into the greatness with no fear but just being driven. It's like when you love somebody, you don't ask yourself, "Hey, what is love? Is it good, yes or no? Should I do that and when?" "Let me analyze this." No, no, you fly. And that drive is representing most of our brain. Only now it happens when we are in love with somebody and when we are very goal-driven. But I should say we should be taught in school how to be that, like every day.
Yeah, how to be driven by love and not fear. And I think a lot of us are— a lot of us have been conditioned to be afraid and make decisions based on our insecurities, our doubts, our anxiety, our overwhelm, or depression. And it's hard to live an abundant, beautiful life from a place of insecurity or fear. And that's why, for me, it took decades of training to overcome feeling a lack of confidence and not secure with myself. And that's why I put masks on all the time to try to fit in, to try to belong, to try to be liked because I didn't like myself with where I was. And when I started doing my own soul searching, not ice, you know, crazy ice stuff, but my own recognizing my own insecurities and fears and then diving into those. I didn't dive into ice, but I dove into ice in my own way.
Same thing.
That's when I started to strip away all the embarrassment, all the, uh, what do people think about me, judgments, insecurities, and really was just said, well, here's who I am, you know. And learning to love and appreciate myself without anyone's approval was one of the most challenging things, but also one of the most rewarding. And it continued to allow me to step up more and more in my journey and You know, I'm still on the same journey, but— and I think when we can learn to make decisions based out of love 100% of the time, we can't fail.
Wow, that's great. That's great. That's good.
This was something you returned to also, right? So having these insecurities and developing yourself within them to be able to open up, confront them. Now what you're doing is You're searching for those insecurities. You're searching new things to do.
Always.
Yes.
Where am I?
Where is my weakness? Where can I dive in? Where's the pain? Where can I jump into the pain and continue to strip away those walls? Because there's always going to be a different season of our life and a different level of challenges unless we learn how to completely eliminate those at some point. I feel like there's always going to be me needing to learn something new. Needing to let go of something that's holding me back and needing to learn how to continue to step into love on a consistent basis and not fall back into protective mode or fear mode or competitive mode, but more how do we all collaborate and support one another.
Yeah, man, absolutely. And I think love is my aim, my goal, yeah, my target to bring that making it accessible for everybody to take away their, say, anxiety and their confusion and to bring this, I mean, the cold water and it's so simple, but it's so accessible and so powerful and it's scientifically endorsed. But hey, you can be right. But you need to be acknowledged.
Yeah, I think that's why we go. I think the cold is so powerful, and I think it's like the gateway to people discovering what their true insecurities and fears are, especially when you're in the cold and there's other people around you, because then it's another level of like, how are people observing me? Am I being judged? Do I look weird? You know, am I making weird sounds and like crying like a child, uh, when I'm this grown man, yeah! And it strips away all of that because you're essentially— you're almost naked, literally, and you're emotionally naked as well if there's other people watching you because you can try to like grunt it out but you're still gonna be shaking and shivering or something until you learn to calm the mind and just say, "Okay, I'm gonna be in the zone. I'm gonna focus on my breath and I can't focus on what everyone else is thinking about me otherwise." I'm not going to get the full experience. So I think it's the gateway for people to start doing the more challenging thing for them, which is, you know, addressing the challenges in their relationship, the challenges with their health, the challenges with their insecurities or their attachments in life, because you have to detach in the cold and surrender essentially. Otherwise, you'll keep resisting and shaking and shivering. So it's a beautiful gateway for people to start doing that in the rest of their life.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that's beautiful. So that's what I found in you. You're very persistent in bringing the vulnerability of people, of man to the light of the moment in discussions and conversations. You keep on challenging in a very big as you are. And I think you can lift a whole lot because you're so strong. But then you get into this sensitivity, and that sensitivity is a greater power than all that. And you're very there, and that's what I really admire. So I'm just looking at it as I look to a beautiful garden or, wow, this is a force of nature. That it is.
Thank you. Appreciate it. I think the emotional power is the greatest power we can have. And when you— it doesn't matter how big or strong you are or how small you are physically, but when you can stand in front of another human and you can emotionally inspire someone through your energy, through your way of being, through the light and the love that you're just shining into someone, and you can ask a question in the right way to get them to open up in a way they've maybe never thought of and hold the environment, hold the space for someone to share and keep figuring out their own answers from within. I think that's true power. It's something I want to learn how to master more because I think emotional wisdom and holding emotional space for someone is one of the most vulnerable and strong things that a person can do because it can help them transform. In a moment. They don't need to get bigger, faster, stronger to transform. They need to awaken something from within. And if you can activate that in someone, which is what you do all the time, but if you in general, anyone can activate that in someone else, then that's true authentic power.
Yeah, absolutely.
Like, love is like— it's not like, oh, I have to protect them because I love them. No, you got to make it a little bit difficult for yourself, for the others to be able to evolve. Yeah. Sometimes me and my dad clash because me with my sisters, my sisters with my dad, then my dad protects my sisters and I love my sisters. I don't have anything against my sisters. But hey, there's also something. Hey, you got to work.
You got to, you got to do, you got to develop.
Right. And then, but then they go to dad and dad says, no, no, no, these are my daughters. You can't do this.
Relax.
Yes. Yes. So what is real love?
Like, I'm curious. Yeah, and I'm curious, Adnan, for you. I'll have you go first, Adnan, and then Wim. What is the biggest challenge in your life that's holding you back from the next level of peace, love, and abundance? And then, and then Wim, you can share. I'm curious.
I think that, that guy there, and my words, he's your greatest teacher. Yes, for the whole world.
But, uh, hey, listen, listen to Lewis.
No, yes, yes.
You just said it.
Yes.
Yeah.
No, no, I think, I think that because I'm very focused on always, yeah, within the business, within, okay, my dad, on how does my dad come forward, etc. I think my biggest challenge is, okay, spending time for myself, right? And being able to let go or being able to not want to control everything. Because that's like a situation for me, it's like difficult. I prefer to control everything and to do the things like how I think they should be done to stay in my safe environment. Right. So the big— my biggest challenge is actually myself, not allowing myself to get into these risks there where I actually would grow. I think.
Interesting. So what would that look like then? No, we're changing it because to let go of control—
you're great, you're a great interviewer, and that's the role you're always going to get, even if you're on someone else's podcast. But I love it because then when we get to ask— yes, I'm sorry.
Hey, you know, for, for, for us to, you know, reach 2 billion people— and I say us because I'm in partnership with you, whether I'm— yes, with you guys or not.
Yes, sir.
Uh, you know, it's gonna take all 3 of us and more learning to transform to the next level, me personally. So that's why I asked the question, because you guys have, you know, a superpower you have with, with your message, with your content, with the technology, the app, the everything, the workshops. It's a superpower for people to transform. And unless both of you are also saying, how can we evolve to the next level? Because every time I talk to you guys, it's this funny joke. Of, you know, our biggest challenge is that we clash all the time.
Yes.
But it's also, okay, how do we evolve past that? So sure. And I'm sure for the— and I'm sure for the rest of your life, you're always going to have a father-son business partnership, like, uh, roll your eye type of moments. But what would it look like every day if you could eliminate that?
Yeah.
What would be— what would be possible to impacting the world if there was an acceptance as opposed to a clash. If there was an, okay, maybe I don't like it, but I accept it. Or maybe that doesn't work for me. So I create certain boundaries and we honor boundaries. You know, it's all an exploration. But I'm curious for you and what would be the thing, regardless of your dad, what would be the thing that would support you in letting go of the control so that it could reach even more people and you could have less stress and overwhelm? What would that look like? Is it hiring one person? Is it— I have no clue. A bunch of things.
I've been looking into it and I've been trying because I also want this to let go, and I also want to not be doing 18 hours, or not having this moment after sex thinking, oh, wait a minute, or making love with my girlfriend, and oh yeah, what about, should I hire this one or that one? And she's really thinking like, dude, what the fuck? So I would love that, but actually I don't know, man. I don't know how I can let myself go within these things and not having to control these things, because the moments I tried to let go were the moments that things like went down.
Fell apart.
Yes. So every time that I do that and it falls apart, okay, maybe I shouldn't do it to be able to continue with whatever we're doing because we're doing a real good job. He's doing like a great job and we are reaching millions. And now he's telling, I want to reach billions, so I have to work harder. Right. So these are the little messages in between. So, okay.
I think, I think harder is also smarter and learning, learning to leverage a team. Yes. And that's not easy. And it's learning to develop new leadership skills to empower people. I've had to learn this the hard way. It's not been easy to— we've got 15 people on our team full time, plus lots of you know, freelancers and agencies and just people involved in the outside as well. And, you know, every time you bring on more people, you have to learn how to become a different type of leader.
Yeah.
And it's still something I'm always learning and I haven't mastered, but it's— that's the only way to scale.
Yeah.
You can't do it with this, you know, a small limited team or micromanaging all the time myself.
Yeah, it's not that easy because, yeah.
Yeah, that's not easy. That was my beginning question. So how do you do it? How do you do it?
I would love to find that out.
I want to go to the billions of people, and it will happen. But why the hard way? Why not the smart way, as you say?
And yeah, I mean, there's going to be challenges either way. It's going to be hard either way, but it's learning to let go and also learning it's not going to be the exact way you want it all the time. And that's the hard thing for me. It's learning to know, okay, I've got, you know, we've got a great team and they're incredibly smart and talented and in their own way, it's just going to look different than my way and learning to be okay. As long as we're reaching people, as long as we're impacting people, we're getting results, we're growing, being okay with that. And I've really had to learn how to do that in the last 6 to 12 months as we've like doubled our team. Because it takes an incredible amount of patience from me to say, "Okay, this is not going to be perfect in the first month, the first 6 months." It's going to take time to train, to keep teaching and educating. So it's going from me being the one doing to me being the one teaching and saying, "Okay, this was great. Now let's make it more like this. Let's change it to here." And then it takes months to get there sometimes and that's okay. But it's like constantly being a leader from teaching and educating and empowering, as opposed to, ah, it's not the way I want it, let me just go back to doing everything myself all the time, because you can't scale that way.
Yeah. And you, and you are one person, right? You are, and the brand, and you're the director of the team. So he's the brand, I'm the director of the team in the background. So yeah, we, we need to be aligned on these things.
Yeah.
And that sometimes, like, yeah, you gotta let go.
So that's So that's what's— so that's what's holding you back is what I'm hearing personally.
Yes. I don't know. So if you look at that, okay, because one of the questions I wanted to ask you is, what is the definition of success? Because you always talk about like success, being successful, not being— what is that? Right. So we are reaching millions, man, and we're doing great within the company. But I don't have this sense of being successful. Never. Right.
So what do you think about that? I stopped using success as a measurement of my happiness and I started speaking about greatness as a measurement of my happiness and greatness for me is discovering your unique gifts and talents and pursuing your dreams and goals with those talents and making the maximum impact on the people around you in the pursuit of those dreams. For me, That's fulfillment. It's figuring out who am I, what do I love, what I want, and where am I talented at? How can I multiply those talents towards something that I care about, a purpose, a mission? And then how can I also inspire and impact the people around me in that pursuit? And I feel fulfillment whether I impact one person or millions and hundreds of millions. Now I have my goals, which is to impact and reach 100 million people weekly. To help them improve the quality of their life. That's our— you know, my company mission. That's my personal mission but if one person listens to my show today and— or listens to this interview today and they got something out of it that helped them elevate the quality of their life, then that fulfills my purpose. That fulfills my meaning. It brings me joy and fulfillment. Obviously, I want to reach 100 million people a week. That's my goal, but I'm not— I'm not attached to it needing to be that way right now. As long as I focus on what can I create today that is using my gifts and talents to pursue my dreams and help someone around me. Maybe I just get to see one person today and I get to smile at them or give them a hug and it elevates them. That's my purpose for the day. Maybe I have a video that reaches 50 million people and it helps a lot of people overcome a challenge in their life, that's my purpose for the day. And I continue to just say, how can I bring joy in this moment? How can I bring love, light, joy, passion, and a childlike wonder? And that childlike wonder never does me wrong. It always keeps me curious and inspired. It makes me feel good. And it tends to always make someone think. When I ask a question. It gets them thinking about, okay, what do I need to do? How could I improve? What is something that's working for me? What's not? And as long as I can be a ripple of inspiration for one person or millions and get them to think differently and question their beliefs and their thoughts so they can improve, then I feel like that's a good day. So when I was with you guys in Poland a year and a half ago, I was planting seeds a year and a half ago. You guys were aware of it together, but also separately. When I was interviewing both of you, when we were having the conversations, the late night, the connection, the round circle of guys talking about vulnerability and both of you opening up and being vulnerable. For me, that was intentional because I wanted to plant seeds and see you guys continue to come together and heal stronger because I knew that if you guys could heal, you could help more people. And it's not like it was a bad relationship, but it was this, you know, my dad and my son. And, you know, it's like this clashing of the minds. And I was like, if you guys can really come together and heal, then what could we do together as a community of leaders trying to impact the world would be expansive. And so that was a seed planted a year and a half ago. And I'm planting the same seed again for both of you saying, what is the one thing that's holding you back. Because for me, if in a year, a year and a half from now, you guys are elevated at another level and it helps you impact more people, then I fulfilled my purpose for today. Maybe I wasn't the one reaching the hundreds of millions personally, but I was able to reach you for 60 minutes and plant a seed that made you think differently and say, well, maybe I do need to let go a little bit of control. Maybe I do need to hire someone here and let them empower them to to lead part of this team. And it's not going to happen overnight, but maybe it starts to happen slowly over time. And in a year and a half, 2 years, 3 years, like, you're not picking up your phone after you have sex with your girlfriend and you can relax.
Sure.
I'd be like, okay, my job.
Make love with my girlfriend and then thinking of these things. But the thing what you're talking about, actually, 11 years ago, before starting to work with all these things, I had this feeling. I was happy. I was like smiling to the people around me. I didn't have any means. I was always like the light on a party. I was always— and still when I go to a party, it's a good party, it becomes a good party. But it was like a different me, right? And since—
what was that me? You didn't have much money then?
Nothing. Nothing. Maybe.
So what's changed? You've got more money than you've ever had. You've got more money you've ever had. You've got more Purpose and mission. Yes. Yes.
Leading a team here. Can you imagine, man? So that's exactly where we are at. And still, I don't feel the same guy as then. And I always heard like, okay. And also within your conversation, like, okay, we're going to reach millions, but maybe I can reach one who can reach millions. It's always like that's a purpose is always outside of, okay, what can I do for? For me, it's like, okay, these 11 years I've been working with my dad, great, beautiful. But also it's about love. It's about— there is a mission. It's improving the world, wanting to improve the world. But there's also so much bullshit behind that, man.
And how do you eliminate the bullshit?
That's what my question is to you. How do you— how the fuck do you eliminate that bullshit?
And here's what I've learned. Here's what I've learned.
Sorry for my French. Normally my dad says it, but this time it was me.
It's all good. Here's what I've learned in the last year specifically, man. I think also I haven't really talked about this publicly, but I went through a breakup about 6 weeks ago and I ended the relationship and I love this person, care deeply about this person. Still do. But our values and our vision didn't align for our future and it needed to end. And we tried to make it work for many, many months and went to couples therapy for months and very intensive conversations trying to align on our values and our vision. And we just weren't able to get there. Even though I know she loves me very much, I love her very much. Love wasn't enough in that situation.
I still remember you talking about her in Poland.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
She's the love of your life.
She's a beautiful, incredible human being, and I'm grateful for the 2 and a half years of incredible moments and lessons. And she was also my greatest teacher. She was like Wim to you. You love him, but oh shit, you clash, right?
In love with her, of course. I don't make love with him.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
A little love-hate relationship. Sorry.
And I learned how to— and at first I was holding on to so many things, so many emotions, so much stress, so much frustration of us unable to align on certain things. And I was holding on to this and man, it was so challenging. And I finally said, you know what? I'm not going to hold on to this. When we're— when we're fighting or arguing or stressed, I'm going to be peace. I may not like what's happening, but I'm going to be peace. And I integrated the process of being peace under all the arguments or challenges or the clashing or the disagreements. I was like, I'm going to be peace no matter what is happening around me in this environment, whether she's frustrated or whatever. I'm not going to react from a place of fear. And again, we make decisions based on fear or love. And so I said, I'm not going to respond from resentment or frustration or anger or upset or hurt. I'm going to respond from a place of peace. I may not agree with it. I may not like it. It's not what I want to be in, this environment, but I'm responding from peace. And I was consistent with that for many months before we finally decided it wasn't the right thing for us to be together anymore. And that process of being unattached to the way it needed to be, to letting go, to not responding or reacting from a place of frustration when something wasn't lining up the way I wanted it. It really taught me a lot. And in the last couple of months since we've been apart, when I'm seeing things, whether it be from my team or personal relationships or friendships in my life that upset me, that frustrate me, that normally I would hold on to, normally I would react from defensiveness. I'm just saying, okay, thank you for sharing. I appreciate it. And what can I do for you? And how can I help? And I'm letting it go so quickly and just going right back into mission, right back into joy, right back into love. And it's been a beautiful— you know, part of me is like, I wish I would have learned how to do this sooner. But at the same time, it's been a beautiful experience of learning how to let go, learning not to be attached to someone's frustration or anger or them attacking me, whatever I might be feeling, and just saying, okay, what can I do to get back into love as quickly as possible? And who knows, hopefully I'll be able to do this for a long time, but I feel like— I love it! It's a practice and I'm going to constantly need to learn how to practice to not be defensive, to take off my mask, to come from a place of love, to understand that this person is coming from a different place in their life and what might they be going through and accept it. I may not like it, but learning to accept it And then moving on to a place of joy and childlike wonder has been an incredible freeing feeling for me.
Yeah, yeah.
I know that. And with every time I get in touch with these things that frustrate me within the business, within the work, within— I am like, okay, I know I don't have to spend time and energy on it. I know I have to let it go. And hey, maybe there's some other story back there, right? Which I don't have to. I don't have to feel this. I have to. And maybe that's greatness, right? And I'm not there. But that's maybe also a good thing because developing yourself and going on towards instead of being somewhere, that's where true happiness lies. Right. And so greatness is—
Yeah. So for me, greatness comes from, from really gratitude. For me, it's really being grateful for all the lessons. You know, since this breakup, I've just been saying every, every time I get the chance to talk about it, to my friends privately, I've just been saying I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful and appreciative for her. I'm so grateful and appreciative for the love we got to share, for the moments we had. I'm so grateful and appreciative for the lessons I'm still learning because of her. I'm so grateful for what she taught me. I'm grateful for the 5 months of intensive 5-hour sessions on Saturday therapy sessions together. Even though it's not what I wanted, I'm grateful. And I think coming from a grateful heart, brings me back to peace and peace for me is happiness. If I'm not in peace, I'm not happy. I'm stressed. I'm overwhelmed and I think it's, you know, Wim's story of, you know, your wife committed suicide and you being in like, having zero peace. You know, having all the pain in the world. People need and want peace and the way to get back to that for me is gratitude, is finding the appreciation from the event, the experience, the story, the memory. And you guys both know that I was sexually abused when I was 5, and for 25 years I held on to pain, resentment, anger, frustration, defensiveness, guardedness, needing to be bigger and stronger so no one could ever hurt me ever again. You know, sacrificing so many things to win, to look good, to be right, to be manly, to be masculine, all these things. And the only thing it did for me is caused me more pain because I was holding on to the memory. I was holding on to the event as an event of anger, resentment, and frustration of someone sexually abusing and taking advantage of me. And when I finally learned to heal through sharing my shame, through processing it, through doing all the different things that I've done— meditation, all this stuff— I felt peace for the first time in my life at 30 years old. That was 8 years ago, and I didn't feel peace until that time. And a lot of it stemmed from learning to appreciate and forgive. Not saying it's okay, not justifying it. It was the right thing that what happened, you know, not saying that anyone should ever have to go through that again, but for me to be free, I got to learn how to forgive, how to find gratitude and appreciation, how to find a lesson out of it, how to find the meaning out of it and use that meaning for good. And I think that's something we all got to figure out with our own journey, whether it's, you know, your wife committing suicide and dying and you saying, "What the heck? I don't wish this on anyone! This is the most painful thing ever!" But look what has been beautifully evolved and expanded because of that. You would not be changing lives in this process, I'm assuming, if that event did not happen. You both would not be driven to help people end suffering and I think You know, I'm sure you wish it never happened. I'm sure you wish you could have her back.
No, it's actually— it's something that formed you along the way, right? Yes. So yeah, yeah. Wishing not for that to happen would mean you not being happy with yourself.
Exactly. Exactly. So that's what I think about.
Yeah. Nice. Greatness, like, is not looking away, not looking away from the bullshit. Knowing that it's there and shine through it.
Absolutely. And what about, what about you, Wim? What's the one thing that holds you back? The big challenge, the obstacle in your way that if you remove that obstacle and overcome it, you'll be able to reach those billions in the next couple of years.
What's the thing? Yeah, what is it? I think it is— I've been listening now on the You know, very little people can make me shut up. And you just did.
That was the longest you've gone without speaking.
There you got it. That is the greatest obstacle sometimes, your own turmoil in your head. And so when that stops is— I believe in the power of prayer, of intention, that our intention is able to go invisibly into the universe, comes back manifested. Yeah. So I believe in that. Not only believe, I showed it in science. I showed it in brain scans. And so that is, that is existent. But it's like Muhammad. He was stoned away from his own village. Or Jesus, a great person. He gets nailed on the cross. Sometimes the people most close to you don't see who you are and what you are and cannot value, cannot accept. And to put a finger on that is to put a finger on the— yeah, the greatest difficulty in humans to see the— Yeah, the pain which is directly in the vicinity and the love which should be in the vicinity to be respected and valued and always to fight for instead of having to live in, say, pain and resentment and all these things. So I think I found through the signs and all, I found the way to answer what back then made me helpless and powerless. And with my wife then, back then, I was completely powerless, helpless. I couldn't stop her. I had no knowledge. And right now, after going through the darkness of heartbreak and bringing up the 4 children in this society that made me now able to show psychiatry because of belief, to show psychiatry a way to cast away, say, the darkness, which is depression, bipolar, psychosis, mental disorders through nature, because I couldn't find it And I found it. But then find also your own family, find also the people in your vicinity coming to you and understanding you. That has been my ordeal always. And it is still there. And I love them so much because I can feel it. It's physical. But the blockages to understand each other, to go and grow into that what actually is the message of the mother of him who is living through all this, namely, if you guys can find whatever happened to me. She kissed her kids goodbye before she went jumping from 8 stories down. That woman was consciously there. She was saying, if you find something that really works, then bring it on and bring it on for all those innocent mothers who have children, who love them, but they cannot live with the terror they live in. And that is now happening. So it doesn't need the resentment. It doesn't need this who is guilty, who is— I don't understand it, I blame you kind of thing. And it had transformed and it mutated and it doesn't— we love each other, but there is also that thing. And that thing needs— it's now time that it needs to go 'cause this is the wish of the mother. This is not only about you and yourself, about me and myself. It's about a quest which is set in by a beautiful being which was his mother, which is his mother, and still is here alive spiritually to be resolving the greatest anxiety in the world as she has been the innocent sacrifice therein. And that's what I see. And with you asking me this, this is my impediment because for the rest, I'm gonna reach the billions. I'm gonna change the world. I really, I will do this. There is no doubt about it. I use the science. I use them all. If they say, "Hey, yeah, but I'm no doctor, I'm no doctor." I'm better than a doctor. I'm better than a professor. I don't need Nobel Prizes. I got millions of them. Why? Because I will change as a simple man the world. Why? Because of the love for one person, for where he came from and with whom he was and understands deeply and great innocently to go on and find back his family. And that is what is— and that is because of the greatness of your being, of your space, of your understanding, of your receiving. So I thank you. I love it.
I'm going to keep on with the bullshit. And, uh, we'll support him in his mission.
No, yeah, that's, that's— so what, what is the one thing then from that that, that you gotta let go of in order to reach the next level? And what's the one thing?
Um, I just want the love of my, uh, all my kids coming together. That, that is the thing that withholds me. There is nothing—
what's, what's going to be the thing that you need to create in order to make that happen?
This podcast. This podcast, this very podcast. I think the stars, the universe is helping us. And like, there is a big rock here. I ordered two big rocks of 5 tons and they were just lying there. And one I put straight. I don't know why, but it looks like a guardian angel. It's like a hood, a Mary with a hood, with a little child in her arms. And yeah, that is in our garden here, and it represents something that is physically there. And we know somebody is looking over our shoulder. We know this. Inexplicable events happen all the time in series, and it's not just the success of my ego and his ego, or something. No, we don't know, but it is happening. And what is happening, I serve that happiness or that what is happening. Is it happiness? Yes, it is happiness, but it's always a little bit in front of us. And now I want us to embrace it through surrendering all as a family, as a unity to that, because then I think from above there, it's gonna say, and something is gone.
So is there— so just so I'm hearing you clearly, is there a disconnect with your kids right now as a family unit, or is it, uh—
Oh yeah, always has. It always— this is logical. When your mother dies, you are— he is, or he was the oldest. You can't blame anybody So you blame the first one who is there. That is logical. It's a reaction, and that comes in strange ways. You never commit— like you, when you were abused at 5 years old, it took you 25 years to learn to forgive. 25 years of buildup, buildup, buildup, buildup, buildup, and stronger and enormous and a football player, and then—
accomplishments and success and money and all those things, and it didn't matter.
That power is on. But now we have a mission here because that innocent sacrifice doesn't need— it needs to be met. And that means we are changing the world simply. Bring love.
When did she pass?
In '95, 6th of July. 25, 26 years ago.
26 years ago. Wow. So it took me 25 years to start processing and—
Ah, exactly. You see, it's about that amount of time it's coming together.
Wow.
And that's why—
And what needed for me is I was doing all the things I thought I needed to do. I was, you know, accomplishing in my sports endeavor, professional athlete. I was playing with the USA national team for team handball. I was making lots of money. I was, you know, able to date lots of girls. I was— thought I was supposed— that was supposed to bring me happiness. And it took multiple breakdowns in my life over a season of many months where it's just like breakdown after breakdown after breakdown. I was just like, what is going on? I thought I'm like succeeding here. I thought I'm doing everything that I'm supposed to do to be happy and I was miserable and I was suffering and I was feeling all this pain and I was like, but on the outside everything looks like it's working the way it's supposed to but on the inside, it was broken and falling apart and that's when it was like the time for me to go through— it was either going to break down more or I had to have a breakthrough and that's when I started to seek wisdom, healing and figure out, well, what do I need to do to overcome this? And it was painful. It was not easy because I didn't want to let go of holding on to that identity, that way of being, but I had to kind of kill the ego completely to be able to break through. And I think that's, you know, one of the things the ice does is it gets you to come to this vulnerable state for 5 to 10 minutes. But we need like a spiritual ice bath as well, where we can just strip it all, kill the ego, and come from a place of healing and forgiveness and whatever it is, so we can move on and move forward into our greatest self. And I think that's where greatness lies. So I hope both of you guys can do that, and I'm going to hold you accountable to it. And I want everyone listening and watching to hold them accountable as well and make them uncomfortable if they're not willing to do it themselves.
Oh, for sure.
Thank you for that, Frank.
Make me uncomfortable every day.
Great platform. It will still take some clashes and things, but it doesn't matter. It's a, it's an ego, little ego thing of letting go.
The thing is, at a certain moment, it's like my— like, there will always be clashes in between the brothers and sisters.
Of course.
It's not like— of course, like what you said, growth doesn't come by pampering everyone, and happiness doesn't come by, oh, making sure that everyone is safe and everyone everyone is happy and everything. No, it comes from, from having these things to endure for, and but to be able to see that yourself and opening up to that and searching for that to then develop. Yes, that's another stage. I'm not there yet.
So Wim, what's the one action you're going to take in this next 30 days to bring your family together to bring more peace and love and unity with your entire family, what's the action you're going to take in the next 30 days that you've never taken before? Yeah, the uncomfortable action. What's that going to look like?
Whoa.
I have an answer for that, for him.
Just trying every day.
Tell me. Not take any action and let it go.
Seriously?
Fully in, that serious. Oh yeah, there you go.
No, yeah.
Available in App Store and iOS.
I really, you know, the thing is, I really appreciate more than you can think of the space you created wherein this could be seen. And it's like once you see it, you feel a relief. You feel relief because it has been seen. And then action will follow. Because I always have been wanting to have it being treated, being going away, yes or no. But I never could create that space. But with people who are able to think alike, who are driven alike, who also want to change the world, who are into it, who come from a very difficult place, from out of darkness into that light and create that space past their ego and just present it and show it. That now is meeting me here vulnerable. But I think I feel very powerful because of it. And I feel the change, the imminent change therein. It's tangible. So what is going to happen is that it is going to happen, that I will let it happen and that I pray for it and hope for it. And my intention is there. So and then how it is going to happen, I don't know. But this is what I always say also. Hey, I want to change the world. I don't know. I just do it.
Yes.
Yeah.
It's where growth lies, right? To go to the unknown, not to walk the track.
Amazing podcast, by the way. Thank you.
Of course.
Yeah. Yeah, of course. And sometimes I feel like we're not going to know the how-to. We're not going to know the answers. But setting the intention is the first step. And if you set the intention every moment, every day, you'll figure out the how. So I think that's beautiful.
First step taken. Nice, man.
Lewis How?
Yeah, he's got it. When he talks, yeah, it's this. Hey, Lewis, we're coming to an end, and as much as I love to talk about these things which are very uncomfortable for me— not— is there something you want to bring forward for our listeners, for the viewers, something that where they can take also, because there are some great lessons you brought forward here. Where can people find more from you?
I mean, they can find more on my show, The School of Greatness, or just at Lewis Howes anywhere online. But I think if I wanted to share a final lesson, it's that healing is powerful, possible, and worth it. And, you know, there's always going to be memories, events, experiences, people that might frustrate you or hurt you or upset you. And learning a process to heal, to let go, to forgive, to move on and go into your higher power has been one of the most powerful things that I've learned. And I'm constantly learning how to evolve it and elevate that with new seasons of my life, new challenges that arise, I'm gonna have to continue or get to continue to elevate my strategies of letting go and healing and not taking things personally or, or having to control things. And the peace is available within you if you're willing to do the work. So I'm just grateful to have friends like you guys who create these strategies, these tools, these experiences, the apps. If you guys, if people watching and listening have yet to go to a live experience, you got to sign up in the future when they're allowed to do live events again, because it will transform the way you feel about yourself, others, and the world. And it'll give you a powerful process. So I'm just grateful to be in collaboration with you guys and appreciate and love you both.
Likewise, man. Thank you.
Yeah, we're going to change those billions. Especially with cleansing the soil here, which we have done, where— where from this huge tree to the skies and beyond will grow.
Step one.
No doubt.
You know this movie like The Neverending Story?
Yes.
It's like, like a little bit like that, right?
And he's like—
he's like— he's like the dragon. He's like the flying man.
It's just a story that never ends, but it's Beautiful! Always take the step one, take step one and the rest will just always come.
Yeah, but in the end it is the soul, unbreakable and everlasting, and therefore there needs to be no fear. Love. But we bring it to everybody in the world, but first to ourselves.
Absolutely, I don't think you can transform others until we learn to transform ourselves.
Exactly, and We are ready for the big jump.
Yeah, but always in cooperation, right? While transforming others, transform yourself. There is like, you learn from it, you go from it. It's not like, oh, I've got to be in my little bubble. No. Okay, love it, man. Thank you so much.
Appreciate you both. Thanks for having me, guys.
Yeah, man, likewise.
All the love, all the love.
Yes, yes.
Amazing.
You guys should, you guys should always finish with a hang drum, you know?
Yeah.
So much lessons today, Lewis.
Yeah.
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