Ep. 586: Anna Lecat | How to Manage Conflict with Business Partners and Teams

Today we're talking about conflict. We live in a world where teams are spread across cities and countries. What seems to be a misalignment, it might actually be a difference in communication style, expectation, or cultural norm. The real question is, how do we know the difference? And how can we handle it in a way that creates connection? In today's episode, I have Ana Lecotte. She has built multiple businesses across different countries, and today she works with leaders on conflict and communication. Let's get started. Many real estate investors avoid conflict for different reasons, but during a webinar, the number one reason they told me they avoid having a difficult conversation is because they don't want to make things worse. So let's talk about it. So what is the next step, Ana, when you are looking at a situation and you know you need to have that conversation, but you actually don't want to because you don't feel comfortable doing that? What would you say to that person listening to us?

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for asking. And just let's remember, we all hate conflict. We grow up in a culture that teaches us to avoid conflict, that loving someone means keeping the peace. Taking, making things smooth, avoiding it. And most of us were told, okay, you have a hard conversation, just take all the, absorb it all and then keep the peace. And I was like that also, as probably you and many listeners, that I would rehearse 40 times how I'm going to start it. And then when the person is in front of me, I would say everything is fine. Right? Yeah. So the first thing is to remember we all are like that. Very few people love, adore, just can't wait to have a hard conversation. So it's self-knowledge, right? And then also knowing how do you specifically react when you are trying to avoid the hard conversation. Do you freeze? Do you run away? Do you get defensive? Do you attack? Which is all, all these are not useful, right? And then what's important to remember is that in front of you is another human being with the same or similar fears, the same, our similar values because those are all intrinsic to us as human beings. So they also care about being seen, being witnessed, being loved. They also want to have a feeling of belonging. They want to have a connection with you and they want to be acknowledged and validated. So just remembering that, getting the focus from you onto them and remembering that they are the human being. So whatever it is that you need to do to remember. So my hack, for example, if I really am feeling resistant to connection, I will look at the person and I will imagine them as a 5-year-old. And in our body, I'm all about somatic processing and about our body and feeling our body. So for me, if I look at you and I think about you as a 5-year-old, in my body there is this, ah, aw, like this, oh, this person is afraid of something or really wants to be seen. And immediately I'm softer, I'm kinder, I can be more deliberate, right? So first is remembering human being. Another one is how do you listen? Is the person experiencing being completely heard? And that's an art, and I teach that in my workshops. So it's the quality of listening should be really, am I ready to change my mind? So I'm not preparing, I'm not preparing my answer while you're talking. I'm listening to you fully. And you know, another hack there is letting people finish their sentences until the last word. So we tend to help people speak and we will be like, if the person makes the pause and they're looking for that last word, we tend to stop them, interject something like help them out. You know, and I've practiced for a year. I gave myself a practice, regular practice of not finishing people's sentences. And you know what? I found out that what I was about to say was absolutely different direction where people were going. Wow. But because we have a confirmation bias, because we want to be agreeable, because we want, we always prioritize connection. People just nod and they also feel bad that they are opposing because in our culture, especially in the West, We are not supposed to stay quiet, silent with each other.

There's a lot to unpack there, Ana. So I wanna start with feeling heard, right? Sometimes we paraphrase what the person is saying so we can get to like, is this what you said? And they still feel that, no, that's not what I said. And then you repeat it again and, um, different types of strategies. Is there a I'm sure when people are in conversations, they wanna feel that they're being heard and they want to hear others. How do we make that happen? I think that many times, like, I hear you, I understand you, but the other person does not feel heard. Where is the root cause of that disconnection?

Thank you for asking that. So I don't think it's about a technique. It's not a communication technique. And I think that's how conflict right now is taught, that, oh, just say that, or just repeat back what they said. I don't think we can trick people into getting an experience of being fully heard. I think the only way to do it is truly being ready to change your mind. It's not faking it. Until you make it. It's not okay if I repeat back or if I say, oh, what I hear you say. You know, there are all these tricks of, no, because if you really in your mind already know they're wrong, that there's nothing they can say that will change your mind and you are just trying to manipulate them into getting them to the right place, if this is why you are there, it's not going to work. Even the best of people who teach it, they don't achieve it. People feel, and I think we underestimate how much people feel. All my work comes from tango dancing. I'm a tango dancer and I teach conflict through dancing, through somatic movement. And in tango, we don't speak. We are very close to each other, right? We really feel each other's bodies because it's a fully improvised dance. And the only way to follow and lead is to fully listen with our whole body to what is the experience of the person who is in our arms. We can feel and hear the breathing, like the external is breathing, you know, nerves shaking, we can all feel it. But then there is also the intuition, intuitive part of how are they feeling? Are they nervous right now, really? Are they confident? Are they open to me? Do they want to go slow? Do they want to go fast? And I dance both roles. So I also feel for, do they want to initiate or they want to surrender? Do they want to lead or follow? Because I switch between leading and following. And so it's really going back to the conflict. If you are faking it and you are trying to lead them to to your conclusion, it's not a conversation and you don't have permission for that conversation. I love it so much. I have a very high bar for conversations. So if I'm not ready to change my mind, if I, and I speak a lot with people who have different political views, who are very anti whatever I represent. So I'm Jewish, I speak with antisemites, open racists, you know, men who think woman has to stay in a kitchen and never, you know, do anything on her own. So I'm I'm also Ukrainian and Ukraine is at war and I will speak to Russian people even if they are pro-war. So I am, this is practice every day for me. And if I'm not ready to change my mind to something that is so unacceptable to me, I will say it. I will put that card on the table.

Can we go there in terms of changing our mind? By the way, I love, I never thought about the concept of tango as the same thing on the, when you're at conflict. And I think really starting by sharing, hey, this is uncomfortable to me. I never, I don't like to do this, but bear with me as I process with you. Just like putting the cards, uh, right there. Same as a person dancing. Hey, this is my first time doing tango. I actually don't know how to navigate this. Bear with me. Let's, let's create something. But you, you're talking about being ready to change our minds. How do we evaluate if, let's start with ourselves, right? How do I know if I'm ready to change my mind? Or what, like, I'm asking very like, how would somebody that is listening now know for sure she's ready to change her mind?

Well, it's great. Thank you for bringing it to very practical steps. I love that. And I'm all with you. I think that's how the conversation should be. So practically, it's about intellectual humility. It's about, it's okay to be wrong. And this is very hard for us, right? Because we like to be right. And so for that, I personally keep the goal, my ultimate goal is the connection with another human and not to win this argument. So if I am going in and I am trying to manipulate them into voting for my party, It's not a conversation. I need to go in saying, and I've talked to many people who campaign, and I know that the most successful people who campaign, they're the ones who will knock on somebody's door because they want to make a friend, not because they want that person to vote for them or for their party. So it's, what is your intention here? Do you want to maintain this friendship? Do you want to keep speaking to your mother? Do you want the love to continue and grow, or do you want to be right? So you check your intention. And then another part is constantly knowing where you are at. And that's— there is a lot of work on self-knowledge and knowing where your body is at, to notice early on if you are getting overflooded, if something triggers you. So I, for example, know my triggers really well. I watch myself carefully, and I know there are aspects of life, of values, that if it's touched, if somebody threatens that value, I get so overflooded that I cannot be deliberate anymore. I know them, and I disclose them upfront to people who don't know me. For example, somehow, for whatever reason, I cannot stand being told what to do. The way I grew up, and I worked with my therapist on it for a long time. I'm working on it. Like, I overflood easier than most people. I'm that, like, don't you tell me what to do. I cannot be deliberate. So if I'm driving a car and somebody's in passenger seat next to me and they do not know me, I tell them before we start the drive, look, like, I want us to be friends at the end of this drive. I love you, I respect you, and I have this thing. So please do not tell me to turn right to, if unless there is some, I love it. Unless there is danger and then just say, slow down, stop, pause, like be very concrete with what I need to do and very clean, no passive aggressive, no sarcastic, do not joke about my driving. Like, okay, so I'm very impressed and then I will be enjoying the drive and we'll have a great conversation. I'll be focused, right? So I open my cards again, like it's back to, I like this idea of a, I have a blueprint. There is like a blueprint of me.

Yes.

I give it to people. Like, if it's a new friendship, I will say, I don't like to be ignored. I'm like quite a queen. So I will say, you know, and it's honest.

I like that. I feel that then I get to know you and you get to know me. I am more interested in that type of relationship versus people wearing masks and keep their cards to themselves.

That's not fun. Well, it's not fun. It also, it takes a long time to be attached and fall in love with each other or have fun together or have collaboration because you have to learn about me for years and years and then I change because we change every day and then you have to keep learning. And I'm upfront, even if something changes, I update the software. You know, I say, oh, you know, this new thing showed up. But like, you're my friend. You wanna be my friend. I easily think that you ignore me if you don't reply to me within a few days. Of course. So let's establish, of course. Okay. I'm glad to know, but it's not of course for many people.

Absolutely, yeah.

Right? So I'm a friend. Or like, for example, I have a thing about alcohol. I, you know, the way I grew up in Soviet Union, alcohol was danger, meant danger. So I don't drink. And I will say, if I'm going out, I will tell people with me, that I will, I cannot, I don't like being around people who start to slur. If they have reached alcohol level where slurring occurs, I will leave a minute before. And I, if you want, let's talk about it now because it's not about you.

Oh my God, Zhanna, I curse without drinking. I also don't drink, but I curse.

What do you do? I know, I know. Slur, not curse.

Okay, okay.

No, cursing old boots. Slur.

Okay, okay.

You know, if somebody speaks and then they don't I don't speak clearly anymore.

Clearly, okay, all right.

That's it, because slurring, cursing is great, please. Slurring for me is something that it signals to me that the person is not clear anymore in their mind and that they are not, they might not be remembering this conversation tomorrow. They cannot be deliberate anymore. It signals danger to my system. It's nothing, it's not judgmental about them. I'm not criticizing their lifestyle. I'm just saying I need to get out. It's my boundary and I will tell them upfront. It's like that in a conflict too. Cards on the table. This is who I am.

I love that. I'll share one of my cards.

Please. I wanted to ask you.

Oh, God. You and all the women that are listening. So one of my cards is when I'm speaking with somebody about, let's say we are going on a meeting to talk about a very specific subject, and then the other person starts talking, but they start talking As if they didn't think about it before, they didn't process it. And they're what I call, they have an open brain. They are talking as they are processing it. And he feels that they are like literally vomiting all their thoughts together to me. And it takes a long time for them to get to the point that they wanted to make. That doesn't work for me. What I, what I have a rule with people is like, see where you are at. What are your non-negotiables? Check with yourself. Do you have an opinion about something? Is it like a 10 out of 10 on something? You don't have it. Um, what are the most important things that you want to accomplish? What are the details that you wanna leave out of this conversation? What you're trying to get out of it? But when I have like, we have like half an hour to have this conversation and then the person go into a rampage and jump from one subject to the other, I'm like, now I'm lost. I don't know why you're making that comment or whatever. That really doesn't work for me. And it has nothing to do with the person. It has to do with me, how I value time. And how I respect people's time. For me, I didn't, I come from Brazil, I am an immigrant. Many times I didn't get a second chance to make a point, to get a job or to sell myself or to try again on a scholarship. I had one chance and I had to come really prepared for that interview, for that opportunity. And I couldn't, waste my time. So I had to do this work to kind of like go back. And it's not about the other person. They can express how they feel. But for me, I think it's my connection with time because I don't have time to waste. And I don't think other people have it, but I look at time as single opportunities. So let's make the best out of it and come prepared. So people not coming with their thoughts straight, it feels to me that they did not put the effort into it as I am putting. Does that make sense?

Totally. And can I offer something more to that?

Yes.

So in tango, you know how they say it takes two to tango?

Totally, yeah.

And so usually people think it takes two to tango means it takes two people, right? We use it in that instance. Yeah. Teacher, my tango teacher, Veronika Tumanova, she said it differently. She says that takes two to tango means two connections, one with myself and another connection with the other person. For that, I need to be fully present for myself. Where is my axis? Where are my feet? How am I feeling? Where am I centered? Am I planted on the floor? How am I feeling? Am I hungry, lonely, angry, tired? How do I feel about the music, the floor, the other person? And then the connection with the other person. And I think, I'm guessing what you are experiencing in those moments when people are not fully there, they're not fully clear, it's not necessarily about their logical preparation. I bet you would enjoy talking to someone on the fly without preparation as long as they're fully— Totally. There. It's really a limbic system experience. We know when the other person is not present. We know deeply, and it's very loud, even I would say more loudly in women because we had to pay more attention to it as we were socialized and the world is dangerous. So we have to really pay attention to what is the state of the person in front of me. And so you probably feel unsafe And it's really irritating to you when somebody is not fully there present and it shows up in how they communicate. But I bet even if they were able to stay logical and prepared, but their thoughts were somewhere else or they were experiencing something different and they were not fully focused on you, you would be highly irritated.

Totally. And my business partner, Liz, and I, we have been business partners for 10 years and we really invested in ourselves and getting to know ourselves. We know each other's triggers. And an agreement that we made is that when I can tell she's triggered, or she can tell that I am triggered, we take a step outside to regulate versus to continue something. As you mentioned, I'm out of my game. So for the women that are listening, when they are in a heated argument or in recurring arguments or recurring conflicts, how do we get out of this cycle of talking about, oh, I already talked to him about it, contractors, let's say. I already, like the repetitive conflicts. How do we get to the real root cause of it and what is it teaching us if it is repeating over and over again?

Andresa, I want to first address what you said before with your business partner. First of all, it's beautiful. I love it when people work for a long time and how well they know each other. And the fact that you, if one of you gets triggered, you'll step out. I want to address that point first, if you don't mind.

Yes, absolutely.

I actually found, so I've heard this as taught by conflict people, do that, can I take a pause? And I've been teaching it also, but then in last couple of years, I've been trying to not do that and stay in because I'm really practicing staying. And all my work is about stay in the tension because usually when we're in a tension, it's because something big got triggered in us, fear, value, something that's non-negotiable. And to find that non-negotiable and to talk about it with the person in front of you is gold. Because when the other person sees us disclosing our fear or our value or our love to them, they will trust us because they will recognize us as another human being and they will stand up for us and help us out because they now love us. They now see us, they now trust us. And so those moments that we really in our culture say, you know, just step away, calm down by yourself and then come back in peace. I say no.

I agree with that. And let me clarify, because I probably didn't. So we take a pause on the subject itself and we address the trigger. So we process it together. Before, it would take a long time for us to process, but right now we have a, literally like a one page, how do we get to the root cause? But we put the subject that we were discussing aside and then we We address what we're seeing. Hey, it seems that you're triggered. Let's go there. Let's see what's coming up for you. We usually say that. What's, what's coming up for you? And then we, we kind of like put it aside. No, but we don't, we don't go away.

We, we stick with it. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Good.

Good. Because also there, because I see that I heard it taught in seminars, you know, step away, take a pause, come back, take care of yourself.

No, it wouldn't work for me, I don't think.

Okay. Okay, okay, great, great.

I would like to abandon the boat.

Exactly.

I would leave you, right? Let's process it and get to the, you know?

Exactly, so that's important. Let's stay together in connection and hold my hands through this, right? And also another thing that's very important, I think, with people who've been together for a long time is not to become like a friend therapist to the other person. Oh, yes. It's always do I, because you've just said, and I'm sorry, I'm just, I'm not— No, I want you to judge me. I'm just, I'm sure you're amazing. You've done great things. With your partner.

Oh no, a work in progress.

It's just, I do not think it's about, oh, you seem to be triggered. It's always, I think I'm over flooding here. I think what you just said, I, I, I, because we, especially nowadays with AI, with so many, there's so much content about psychology and therapy. People love being therapists to each other. And they're like, oh, you know, I watch this Shorts and I think you are doing this. And they're talking about each other's attachment styles and love languages and all, you know, and traumas and childhood traumas. And I'm always like, ah, okay, not a therapist, a friend. And yes, friends are there for processing. I think that as long as we are not playing the role that we would like to maybe do in life, but this is what's happening to me, right? And then your next, another question was occurring conflict, like with a contractor, for example.

Yeah.

All right, a long time ago, I learned that if I have an occurring conflict with someone, there is something for me to learn there. Something is up. It's a lesson that the universe or whatever you want to call, whatever you believe exists, or just it's a chance. It's coming to me to learn a lesson because this conflict keeps happening in my life while all the other issues are resolved. So even more so, a chance to invite that person for lunch. It's not about, not when they're in front of their people, right? It needs to be calm, tea, coffee, beer, whatever your cup of tea is. And do I again, hey, I've noticed, It's so strange. I love everything that's going on between us. However, there is one thing I keep getting triggered. There's something about me. Would you be willing to sit with me and look into me? It's not looking to you. And then another trick, again, trick, hack, whatever you want to say. So, for example, if I have a conversation with my husband, with whom I have the most difficult conversations, I think that the highest stakes, the more difficult conversations, right?

Right.

I do this, if we're in a restaurant, he's French and so he really loves like nice restaurant wine and blah, blah, blah, and I don't even drink, so okay, water and wine for him. And like, you know, sit like this in front of each other. While I respect that ritual, and in France, you know, people are very serious about their ritual of how they eat. When I have a hard conversation to have with my husband, I will put a chair next to him. And I will say, you and me have this problem. So we together here are a team. And for us, there is this problem. It's never you and me have a problem. It's very difficult for bodies to understand if I'm looking at you, pointing at you, imagining the third problem. But if we're together next to each other, so if it's a contractor, can you bring a lunch and sit on a curb? Next to each other, and then you show even with your hands, this is a problem. Can we discuss together? Because you and me, we are a team. We can only succeed if we continue being a team.

Oh my gosh, I love this so much because it's, it's, it's us against the problem, whatever that problem, but I like that you are materializing it. Is it a chair? Is it a house? Is it whatever that is? So then every time that I look at that chair, then we're talking about the problem. Versus against each other. We didn't get a chance to go deeper, but I didn't wanna miss the opportunity to talk about culture, right? Many times we, we work with people from different countries, even within the US, right? Diverse immigrants from, I am an immigrant and I work with so many diff, different people. And many times I, okay, I'm using now I every time, I don't, I think that culture is not taken into consideration as one of the issues or root causes of conflict. Many times there is an alignment, but there is a difference in culture itself that people are like, oh, I forgot you're Brazilian now, and that's why you do this, and that's why you talk with your hands also, and et cetera. And I think many times you have a cultural difference and not necessarily a misalignment issue. So how does it play? How have you seen this culture playing into conflict?

Oh, thank you so much for asking. I love this conversation. It's so rare that people want to talk about it. And you know, I'm a triple immigrant. I immigrated from Soviet Ukraine to China. I speak Mandarin fluently and I live in Shanghai. Then to United States, so I'm an American, and now to France. So like 3 different countries, totally different. Totally different. And so I needed to adapt and learn and build businesses. I built several businesses across these countries. And so there are two things. First of all, yes, remembering that this is a person from different culture and mostly remembering you are from different culture. So putting back your card on the table upfront. So I will say I'm a Ukrainian or, you know, or I've lived so many years in China and so this affected me. This is how it affected me. You might notice. That I behave this way, it's because of my background and I would like to keep it in our relationship. Is that okay for you? How do you feel about that? So it means, and then translating that when we communicate, I will use my hands or for Asian people, so many people, Chinese people who work in the States, they do not translate. They do not talk about how eye contact is not obvious for them. And it doesn't mean that they don't trust you. It's just that they've been taught that it's not polite to look people in the eye. In the eyes and it's just not something that they've been taught. While somebody from Latin America, if you don't look them in the eye for a long time, like, are you hiding something? Exactly. Right? Like, how do we, we don't even know, right? You don't know how to connect, connect with the other person if you don't see their eyes. And so remembering that, learning, because so many different cultures, so learning about them and respecting, and yet at the same time, not stereotyping. You know, because I also see a lot in business world, I see the other side of this pendulum going to, oh, you are French, that means, let me, like, I, for example, get a lot of, oh, I have an Eastern European girlfriend. I know how you all are.

What does that even mean?

Oh, well, first of all, congratulations, Eastern European girlfriend. Awesome, I'm sure. And maybe I'm a human being that has, right, like I've been affected by the whole life, not just by the place where I was born, right? And to your point, in the United States, we have different cultures on the same street. People are moving so much from the south of United States to the north, right? Or like coast to mid of the country, you already will have also those differences. So Also not saying, oh, you are from South Carolina. I've had, I like, I had a neighbor from South Carolina. It means you are like that. So also being sensitive on the other side to not over-stereotype and over-bias people because they have an accent or because they look similar to your girlfriend means that they also want the flowers, you know, which is possible, but also checking on that, you know? So again, putting that card on the table. Totally. I like it when people tell me that they had an Eastern European girlfriend. They do, it means that I know their stereotype about me. You see, so I like that disclosure and then I know what to tell them because for example, there I will say, well, I've been independent. I've left when I was 17 years old and I'm actually overcorrecting on independence. So just so they know that like, don't tell me what to do. What are the stereotypes about your culture, your accent, and disclosing it and opening those cards in the conversation so that you don't step on it on the other side of, you know, overcorrecting.

I love this. I think we can continue talking about it so much, especially amongst everything that is going on in the world right now. I think we are more alike than what we are different. And I think what you're saying, keep the connection as the goal of a conversation. Am I connected with you? Are we both present? I'm going to double-check every single connection that I have now. People are screwed. Uh, I'm going to double-check. Are we, are we here? Mind and Soul, are we here? Are we here? Are you here? Am I here?

We're all here.

Because I think that's a fair request to make because I want to connect with people and I think they want to connect with me. They also don't want to see my walls go up and everybody goes up. I want to connect with real people. I usually say that I don't like a lot of people and that is the truth. And I think that my disclaimer is that I don't like when there is a mask, when there's people are not comfortable being themselves unapologetically, because then I cannot know them. And I think it's miss opportunity. I might like your real version versus this version that you're putting up. And I think with social media, people put a lot of versions out there, um, and then create an image that we might not know who the real person actually is. For, so Ana, Andresa, you shared that you're coming up with a new book that is launching very soon. Tell me more about it.

Yes, it's actually just arrived. Thank you for giving me the opportunity. I just unboxed it before this. So the book is called Love in Conflict. It's going to be available on March 31st. It's only softcover because I wanted to write a book that people carry with them. And open it on the plane, on the train, you know, just very easy. It's half memoir, half my framework of how to love conflict and fight kinder. And my goal is if you are conflict avoidant, if you hate it, if you are not, if you stopped loving someone or stopped being in a communication with somebody you love because you have a difference of opinion, political beliefs, lifestyle, I hope that you read this and then you know what to do, how to call them. And how to invite them for that curbside lunch. And so, and I tell about my travels and how I adapted in China and in San Francisco and now in Paris. And it's hard and it's hard to have those conversations. I know that this is not a happy, a very happy subject. So I try to make it as fun and engaging as possible so that people relaxed and dance with me. Awesome.

I will keep, Now I have a different perspective about takes two to tango. I do, and I won't change based on what you said. So Ana, thank you so much for spending the time and having those conversations. I think the women in our community appreciate going there and talk about it because that's what they feel on a daily basis. So thanks so much for your time and sharing your story with us.

Thank you so much for inviting me.

Thank you for listening. I hope you found today's conversation valuable. And don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes and share this with the women in your life that needs to hear it. I'll see you next week.