Women & Money: Financial Independence is Your Birthright with Farnoosh Torabi

Welcome, ladies, to The Real Estate Investor Show, providing inspiration, strategies, and insight to empower women investors to live balanced and financially free lives.

Now, here are your co-hosts, Liz and Andresa Guidelli. So, in today's episode, ladies, we have Farnoosh Tarabi. She is a personal finance expert, speaker, TV personality, Her podcast, So Money, has surpassed 18 million downloads with listeners in 160 countries. And what I loved about today's episode is not only is she incredibly authentic, real, down to earth, we get into so many different things around the, not just the money side of it, but relationships as well. Because we all know as investors, money, relationships plays a big role as we invest and take our businesses The next level, I think you're really going to enjoy today's episode.

And she talks about like the relationship that we had with our parents in relationship to the money, right? This triangle, the new relationship that women are stepping into right now. And also what I really thought was very interesting is the relationship with the partners. She talks about renegotiating the contract based on the new roles that women are playing now. I think those are skill sets that we are all learning to implement nowadays as we navigate and creating life on our own terms. This is a must-watch or listen, depending on whatever you, you prefer, episode.

Welcome back, ladies.

This is Liz and this is Andresa Guidelli.

Welcome back to the Real Estate Investor Show, where our mission is to empower women to live a financially free and balanced life, right, Andresa?

On their own terms. Yeah, and whatever that means to them, right? Because we have— we're all different and we all embrace that diversity.

We are so incredibly excited and honored to have Farooj Tarabi on our show today. So pumped to have you. You are such a breath of fresh air when it comes to money and women and just so many different pieces of the puzzle of everything that we stand for in our community, because money is a major piece to investing. So just so honored and happy to have you here. So thank you for sharing your your wisdom, your time. Uh, we're just so pumped to get into women and money and all the, all the things that go around that. So thank you for being here, uh, today.

I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for this honor, Liz, Andresa. You know I'm big fans. Um, Andresa was on So Money not too long ago, so I'm honored to, uh, to be here. And I'm, again, I admire so much of what you guys and you gals are up to.

Well, thank you, likewise. And, uh, before we get into, to all the fun stuff we're going to get to today, we like to get connected to all of you listening. We are so grateful and honored to have our audience and the women and men who follow us along our show, right? We'd like to get a quick story, quick something to get into your consciousness. Something that's coming up for us usually is coming up for the women and men in our community. So I wanna share something, Andresa. I'm on the doc and I have to look at my notes 'cause if I don't look at my notes, I'll forget things half the time. But, you know, As we're releasing this episode and as we're recording it, we're early in 2023. So my husband and I are doing this. Mindvalley is an organization out there. I know Andresa and I love it, love what they do. And it's a course on the Silva Method, which is a type of meditation. So anyway, our first day was today, right? And the first session, I had my little notepad out. My husband's like, what are you taking notes for? I'm like, I really want to take this seriously. Listen, I wanna take notes. He's like laughing at me. So I had my little notepad out and, and basically the first session was kind of prepping you and then he took you through a meditation and it's all about a dynamic meditation, not like a, like a breathing meditation. It's much more like dynamic and getting to your alpha state. And I have to, and I can't fully explain what alpha state means just yet. I'm new into the course. Regardless though, the meditation was about getting you calmed, but also very like there, like you're not supposed to go anywhere else. You're supposed to get really calmed and also just not like you kind of get connected to your deeper meaning and your deeper who you are. And again, totally new in this course, but that was the point of the meditation. So he's bringing me through this meditation. So as soon as he starts, he, his voice is very calming. It's 10 minutes. I hear this. It's in the recording and I don't know if that's making—

No, but what is it? Wait, I, I didn't hear it.

What is it? You didn't hear it? Okay. It's like a, um, like a woodpecker. Was in the recording with him. And I'm like, is there— so we stop and we're like, oh, there must be some weird thing going on. This is a big thing. Why is there a tsk, tsk, tsk, tsk, literally in the back of this gentleman kind of getting you through this meditation? I'm like, there's two things happening. Number one, this is meant to be here as a throw-off. Or number two, there's something technically going wrong. And here we are, like, ready to go with our little meditation in our 30-day course.

So I want my money back.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was thinking.

I want my money back. I'm going to email customer service.

Can I get a discount?

So I go to my phone. I'm like, it must be my iPad. You know, I have an older iPad. So I put the iPad aside. And then so I start my phone again. He starts the meditation, get into your— I'm like, oh my God. So I'm like, this is an opportunity. Yeah. Matt goes, I can't do this. I'm like, no, this is an opportunity. This is our first day. Of our 30-day course to reset. And it's annoying, but isn't that the whole point? We wanna like get into a deeper state and this is—

Do you know if that was on purpose or not?

Still don't know. Still don't know. But does it even matter? So my point to everyone listening, my point to everyone listening is it, you know, in life, if you say, you know, I want this the year to be, I wanna be clear this year, I wanna be goal, I wanna buy my next 5 properties, the universe is going to put so many things in your way because you've asked for what you wanted. And one of my intentions is to be, you know, more present, more, um, you know, and just present to what I'm doing. So the ticking mark was a test for us to say, are we going to continue? Are we going to stop and make this an excuse as to why I can't listen to the meditation? So I just, I just thought that was a great, a great example of, right, sticking to what we want. But the universe is going to bring things. If you want more calm and peace, you're going to get opportunities of a lot of lack of that because it's testing you. So, so stay the course and I'll, I'll, I'll come back with an update whether the ticking noise was, was meant to be or not.

I love it.

I love it.

I think that those are opportunities, right? But if we are not aware that that's happening, we get into minutia of, of going to this rabbit hole and we forget our purpose, why you even started. So really like getting present to the moment and saying, I'm doing this. Rain, shine, freaking snow, 5 inches, whatever that is.

Woodpecker noises. Woodpecker noises.

Or not.

Kid vomiting, child doing whatever, you know, you name it, because that's our life. Yeah. Now the lines won't align in order for us to have this perfect scenario. I love it. Keep us posted. Doesn't really matter, but keep us posted because now we're curious.

So for Anoush, the first question we like to kick things off is, what is the lesson that has taken you the longest to learn in your professional life, in your life in general?

My gosh. Well, the longest lesson is probably what my next book is about. And it's taken me 42 years to get to this point. It's the book I think I was always supposed to write, but I wasn't ready for it yet. I still had a lot to learn, and it It was that, you know, I grew up a very frightened child. I think a lot of us can relate to growing up in the '80s. I'm a cross-Gen X millennial, and I'm the daughter of immigrants, Iranian immigrants. We moved here. I was born here, but my parents moved here in the late '70s, fled a revolution in their country. So they arrived here after taking a lot of risk. And when they arrived here, they were like, no more risk, we're going to play it safe. And to protect me— my mother was 19, she didn't speak the language, my father was at work all day— she intentionally made me afraid of everything. And looking back, it led to a comedy of errors as a kid, you know, that you can imagine. Like, I had a distrust of everybody, of— I was a very skeptical kid. I wasn't very optimistic. I was frightened. I was always you know, on edge. Um, and it was like I got actually nicknamed Tarsu, which in Farsi means scaredy-cat. Like, I was that poster child for fear. I would run out of such situations almost to my detriment. I mean, it was like— you'll have to read the book to learn about those, uh, comedy of errors. But I think what I learned, what I had to do, was essentially re-parent myself, you know, since then. And not to say that I abandoned fear and that I have become fearless. And instead, it's rather that I've learned how to have a really mature relationship with fear, which is not something we learn. It's not something that society encourages us to do. If anything, it says be fearless, abandon your fears, don't listen to these negative emotions, they will hold you back. But I'm here to say that I have achieved a great deal in my life, not because I've been fearless, but actually because I have learned how to dance with my fears and how to be more in control of this emotion, to leverage from it the tools that I need to make the healthy decisions that have afforded me what I think is, for me, a personally fulfilling life. And I want to teach this to others. It's the sort of thing where I got into my 20s still taking with me some of those you know, bad ways of reacting to fear. And it got me into a lot of conundrums in my 20s. And it was like derailing me. And I had to sort of stop and recognize what was going on. Because the truth is, you know, we all are scared. The world is a scary place. To say someone stop being afraid is disingenuous to the human condition. And so, you know me, I'm all about like, let's just lean into what's easy and what is authentic and what is natural. You know, fear is a real— it is a natural— it is a stimulus that predates us. Like, it exists for a reason. It is a protective stimulus. It is a protective hormone in our bodies. And, you know, back in the day, it was more to protect us from primitive dangers. Now more like societal. We've evolved. So societal dangers. And I think it's important to, like, be patient with our fears and befriend them because otherwise it will run us over. It will. It has a tendency to want to take over. It's a very powerful emotion. But I think that when you stop to recognize, hey, I'm afraid it's here, it is again, here we are again. But like, how can I have a really thoughtful conversation with this fear, which is really at the end of the day, having a thoughtful conversation with yourself tapping back into your values, what is important to you. Because when you are afraid, in many cases, when you're afraid of things like loneliness or rejection or failure or money, it is really about— why is it— the reason it's showing up is because you— I think, and this is something that I've ruminated over for like a long time, you asked like, this is like the longest lesson I've learned— is I think it's because it's teaching you what your values are. It's pointing you back to what's important to you, the thing that you want to protect. And so I'm excited to have sort of like arrived on the other side of this. I've written a book about this. It's coming out later this year. It's called A Healthy State of Panic.

Oh, I love it.

Like, we're all going to panic, but could we please have an emotional intelligence about this and stop telling people to abandon your fears? Because I don't think that is humanly possible. It is not a truth that we can live by. Instead, I think what we've all been really doing, those of us who believe we have been fearless, we've actually been doing the thing scared. And maybe we have been leveraging the power of fear without really recognizing and appreciating it.

Totally agree. I want to piggyback on what you say about parenting ourselves, right? As adults, like I am a daughter of, of, I am an immigrant, my parents did not migrate here. So I couldn't rely on them for any financial advice or for any type of business advice or anything like that in my life. So from a long time, I parent myself. I'm not— just want to dismiss wonderful parents. I had wonderful parents. They are the base, my foundation. Cannot deny that, right? But from a business perspective, from a money perspective, right, I had to parent myself and label that parenting more recently than, than, than before. I did not have awareness of, of, of that. And I think that for, for women, the relationship that they, they have with, with money and the values. Many are carrying their values from the parents that don't longer, you know, adjust, and they need to be evaluated and see, does that fit my— where I am right now? Does that fit? Does that serve the purpose? And I'm curious about your relationship with money. How did that evolve from you inheriting the, your parents' values in relationship to risk and money and, and how you were able to create something that worked for you and your family and also for the next generation.

Yeah, thank you. And I too, I mean, our parents are our heroes, you know, at the end of the day they laid the groundwork. And I think any good parent, and I have 2 kids, recognizes that, you know, your job is not to dictate, you know, your kids lives, their futures, but rather to create hopefully a foundation for them to build on, to recognize their strengths and celebrate that so that they can also recognize that in themselves and to do more of what brings them joy. And, you know, and like they're not going to agree with you all the time. And that, and that was a struggle for me growing up because my parents, I think, and I think that was a generational parenting thing where they, they really did want to feel like they were driving you to the finish line. And again, as a daughter of immigrants, I think they came here and they really wanted to play it safe. They really just wanted to stay the course. They— my parents changed their names to American names. Um, my second— my brother who was born 10 years later, I'm Farnoosh, he's Todd. Okay, does that tell you like where they were 10 years later? You know, like they, they were really hell-bent on assimilating. And, uh, to, you know, just like the American dream was to basically get an education, work hard, finish the job after 35 years, retire. And compared to where they were, that was like bliss. That was heaven compared to the lack of opportunities.

And my dad—

the reason they were here is because my father actually couldn't study what he wanted to pursue in Iran. They had shut down the universities in particular disciplines. You couldn't study things like, you know, physics and engineering, things that were my dad's passion. So he came here and then ended up staying. So he literally, literally could not do some of the basic things that they were given the opportunities to do here in the States. So I get it, you know, that they did the best they could with what they knew, with the tools that they had. I think for me, again, it was a great foundation. I grew up while I did have this fear inside of me all of the time. At the same time, my parents modeled for me the rewards that come with hard work and discipline and good money. I mean, we talked about money. I think this is the biggest gift that my parents gave me around money. And we weren't rich by any stretch. We were— like, my father moved here making, you know, a graduate student stipend. My mother didn't work. We were living in projects in Worcester, Massachusetts. And so, you know, their climb— I credit so much of their success to the fact that they just really— they bit the bullet and they just worked hard. Um, but the best gift, I think, was that we talked about money, which I grew up not realizing was unique. I thought that everybody talked about money like they did sports, and We talked about the weather. We talked about the good and the bad. And I heard my parents argue about money, which I don't know whether you think that's a good parenting thing or not, but I experienced all of it. And I think that's probably— it was what it was, and it helped me because it gave me this fluency around money, this comfort to talk about money, to see it in my own life, how it was unfolding. To ask questions, to not be afraid actually of money. The one thing I wasn't afraid of was probably money, you know, growing up, um, because I saw there was a lot of transparency around it in my household. My parents fought about money a lot. There was a lot of power struggle dynamic around money. I saw that how money could really be this, this pain point in relationships, and it taught me to, to work on that very consciously as I grew up and entered relationships and all of that. And I also saw how, as women too, not just with my mom, but my mom's friends and our neighbors, women who didn't work or made less or allowed their partners to completely defer everything to their partners, how that was a— that spelled disaster for them, you know, eventually. and I didn't want that, you know. So I learned— I, I was, I was aware enough to know, like, okay, I appreciate the exposure, but I don't want that. This is not to mean that this is what it has to be for me. If anything, I'm going to rewrite this for myself. And I was very conscious about that. I mean, in my 20s, I was very hesitant to, um, you know, which was a pro and con. I didn't put myself out there a lot. I was worried that my ambitions, my financial ambitions might turn off men. And so I kept myself back a little bit. I played small in the dating, in the dating arena. You know, I didn't want to like— I didn't date. Let's be honest. You know, I was afraid of rejection because I hadn't seen that modeled for me. I hadn't seen like a woman who was in charge financially, professionally, and in a happy marriage. you know, where there was this mutual appreciation of each person's paths. And so I, um, you know, I struggled with that in my 20s, and, um, I, I've written a book about it. You know, it's called, uh, When She Makes More, the female, you know, being a female breadwinner and how that manifests in heterosexual relationships. Um, a lot of people were so happy when that book came out because I felt like I had just kind of like popped off a lid, you know, like I had opened Pandora's box. On the other end, you know, some said, a smaller subset thought it was not very feminist of me to be writing about this, like just even calling out the fact that there might be some issues when the woman makes more is sort of anti-feminist. But I thought like, this is happening, you know, can we please talk about it? You know, I don't want to be talking about it, but we, I think we should because I don't, think it's right to— and I grew up like this, you know, my parents said I could do anything. I'm sure your parents said the same thing. You could be anyone, you can do anything. We are very targeted with our daughters in telling them this message, but it is a false message if we don't also arm them with the realities, the tools to face the realities of when they go and do all of the things, when they go to college, go to grad school, start the business, make the money, get the raise. Become CEO, get it, you know what I mean? Like, we want that for them.

Yeah.

Can we also show them how to be that person in the context of a relationship? Because it does impact a relationship, you know, your— how you spend your time, how you make your money, your relationship with money, your relationship with your career. It flows into your relationship with your partner. And it doesn't mean that it can't work. It just means that maybe there are some things to be aware of. There are nuances, there's different communications that have to happen. And that's where the book kind of shows up for these couples and gives them something to hold on to as they're navigating the course of their relationship. Because it's new. As I said, this wasn't modeled for me, as I, you know, and I think I speak for many people.

Yeah.

So anyway, that was a long answer to your question. What was the question? I don't know.

Don't worry about that.

My parents, like, what I want to do is get started on my parents. That's the point of that answer.

One thing that you kind of like triggered to me, and I was like, when was the time that I knew there was a lack of diversity or not diversity, but inequality? And it was after I moved here. Not, not that this is a country matter, right? I think my parents, their relationship. And I've always been a leader. I always high achiever. And in my past relationships with, with boyfriends, I never held back anything or never. And looking back, I was the most successful one, even. But I didn't realize none of that. I didn't realize what overachiever women, the prices of being in this era, the penalties, right? Exactly. As I navigate my marriage and my divorce, I start becoming more aware of it. And after my divorce, much more. In terms of relationships and how I am viewed right now, how I am approached from different types of people, women and men, doesn't really matter. But the penalties and the assumptions that come. But I was like, I've been always like this in my, in my entire life. But I don't think we talked about it. And one thing that you mentioned about the the relationship with, with money, I've watched this Netflix series called Live to Lead, and one of the women was saying that women have not been citizens for the whole time. So not quite long ago, our dependency in terms of our voice being heard, our relationship with money. We don't have a long history dealing with, with money. So, right, women right now are having this awakening in terms of owning who they are and really being in charge of their money, their insecurities about their confidence, about investing. Is this the right, the wrong movement? We haven't had histories. We haven't had mothers and grandmothers in, in a lot of history of being seen it. So for you, what is your vision in terms of the relationship that women have with money? Many feel that it is like a dirty thing, or this is just for obnoxious people or people that are not rich. Instead of rich and/or wealthy, and happy, I prefer be happy, or is this very unease relationship with money? I'm curious to see in your career and in your community, what have you seen in terms of the evolution of how women are dealing with money?

We have certainly evolved, but not as far as I'd like to see. I think I've been in this personal finance space writing and reporting and speaking with women and men since the early 2000s. I had my first internship at Money Magazine. I was 20 years old, and our audience there was mostly white, mostly men, mostly about to retire. And then ironically, I'm the one writing the stories for this audience. And that's when I had my first awakening where I thought, what a missed opportunity, right, for a major national publisher to only be writing to these folks who kind of already are figured out. They've got their nest egg. We're writing about Millionaires Next Door. What about the millionaire next door next? Like me. And why should I be excluded from these conversations? I get it. Maybe I can't afford the subscription, but I thought, okay, this is a huge blind spot, and I want to make sure that if I'm going to continue doing this, that I want to speak to myself and people like me and people who are underrepresented, you know, and that's a large population. There's so many people who are not white, not male, not about to retire, whether it's, you know, a woman, a woman of color, a member of the LGBTQ community, someone who's disabled, someone who is an immigrant, someone who is a single mother. And I think what I've seen, which is like so incredible, is in that span of 2 decades. We are now in a moment where wherever you are in your life, whatever your financial narrative is, however you got here— and we all get somewhere because of where we came from, and that's based on like, you know, how we were raised, the experiences that we had, the color of our skin, our gender— that all informs, uh, our experience in life, and particularly our financial lives. Wherever you are today, you are— I am confident you can find a financial expert, a book, a podcast, a Twitter feed that you can personally identify with and connect with that feels inclusive to you. That was not the case 20 years ago. So it— not just for women, I think for our entire population, depending— no matter who you are, how you got where you are today, there is, there is some— there's an outlet for you. And that's really an incredible triumph. And I credit the internet for that, that, that, you know, once the internet became more democratized, we, and we had more tools at our disposal to break those barriers to communicate to people. It wasn't just like you had to subscribe to a magazine that came to your house once a month. You could go online and read a blog post, watch a video, see something on social media and be inspired and be educated within a minutes. And I think that has completely revolutionized not just financial information and education, but really real estate and relationships and health. I mean, so we can credit the internet for so much of that. I think for women, what I really want to see us, like the next chapter is to really, to your point, feel and know truly that Financial independence is your birthright. It is your birthright. You may not feel that way. Your community may not encourage it because, to your point, Andresa Guidelli, you know, women have not been citizens as fully and for as long as men. And when it comes to our finances, you know, it was only until, I think, the '70s when a woman could have her own credit card without having a man to— needing a man to co-sign. And so money is new to everybody, to women, and it's new to everybody else, um, in the sense of like understanding that women have a right to this. So whatever is sometimes is new can feel unsettling and threatening, and that is something that we just have to hope that over time it dissipates. But it is something that you also need to consciously remind yourself that I am worthy of being rich. I deserve to be wealthy and to be financially educated. There is no dumb question. Unfortunately, like, this is sort of like the narrative we have to repeat, um, because you become what you believe. If you believe that being rich or richer than your parents or richer than your husband or richer than your friends is rude or, uh, unladylike or there's— you have your priorities messed up. People think this, you know, like, if I focus too much on my career, my money, and I'm a woman, like, I'm not— I'm not a good mom, I'm not a good wife, I'm not a good sister, I'm not a good daughter. Similarly, men have these scripts, not with money, but with everything else. Like, if I don't— it's like, for them, it's the opposite. Like, if I don't prioritize my career, my money, I'm not a good dad, I'm not a good father, I'm not a good husband, provider. I'm not a good provider. They think providing means exclusively financially providing. So they also have some work to do, and, you know, we need to meet in the middle. Um, but I think for women, there's no, um, no such thing as over-insisting upon the fact that being financially independent is your birthright.

Yeah, yeah, there, there's so much there. And I, I think we see that so much with the women in our community, right? Because they're, they're the ones that are taking steps towards investing, buying the property, doing the flip, putting their property on Airbnb. And what's fascinating from a couple's perspective, which is a topic near and dear to my heart, I've been investing with my husband for 17 years and we're writing a book about investing as a couple and how to navigate that with all the different pieces of the puzzle because it could get a little overwhelming and working together. But With a lot of the women in our community, it's the opposite. So, they're the ones sitting there saying, I've invested the time and energy into my family. I'm at a point in my life I want to really grow. I want to grow my financial independence. It could be in their 20s, 30s, 40s. It's more common, right? 30s, 40s, and 50s in a lot of ways, right? Where it's like this new awakening of like, hold on, I don't want to be doing that anymore. I want to be in charge of my own schedule. And I know I can do that. What we're experiencing with a lot of women in our community is they have this— they're in that, okay, I got this, I know I can do this, but there's a little bit of trepidation, right? A little cautiousness. And then you bring into the— to especially for those who are married or in a couple, what that looks like because their role in the family is now different. They're not in that, you know, in the same role they've been for the last decade. Now they're like, hold on, I'm, I'm traveling, I'm, I'm doing this, I'm looking at these deals, I'm taking our money and now investing it, right? So it's really interesting. And not more— it's not just interesting, it's a lot to unpack because it isn't just money, it's, it's, um, it really balances it all out. I don't know what your thoughts are around that, but there's— it's roles, it's 100, you know what? Yeah.

So, yeah, whenever, whenever there is a shift in your relationship, whether it's one person's now working when they weren't, or one person's making a lot more than the other partner, or now you have more kids, or now one person is just like, you know what, I want to take a beat and I want— I don't want to work. Um, everyone should have permission to exercise what they want, right? That is— that ultimately is like a healthy decision for themselves. And, and— but I have a— I remember doing it, I don't know if it's an article or a podcast, a wise person once told me that couples, you have to anticipate you know, different seasons in your relationship, and your relationship is going to evolve. That's normal. Um, how you kind of stay on track is you need to almost rewrite the contract every 5 to 10 years, really. I mean, if you really are anticipating you're from the precipice of a major change, a life shift for you together, whatever, that constitutes a sit-down and a remapping of how the two of you will continue to contribute to your values, to your goals. That may mean outsourcing some help. That may mean shifting your hours during the day if you have children to accommodate for childcare. That may mean saving a ton of money for a year so that in the following year, the partner who wants to take a step back can do so with financial ease. And so I think nothing is— a goal without a plan is just a dream. I read that today on, on Instagram. Okay, a goal without a plan is just a dream. Couples, you're entitled to your goals, individual and together, but they don't really work unless you have a plan. And whether you're one of those couples that likes to just dictate and write things down and sign on the bottom line and notarize it, like, do you, but you have to be in concert. And I think, you know, this is true for couples where there is an economic flip in the relationship, there's a providing— financial providing flip in the relationship, or there's, you know, um, I'll give you an example. When we had our first child, I, you know, was a full-time entrepreneur. My husband was a full-time worker in a company, and we had child care, fortunately, but our our, our childcare, our childcare provider would leave every day at 4 PM because those were the hours that we had negotiated with her. Well, from 4 to 6, those are still working hours, right? And so, um, in the beginning it was really difficult because we would sort of both get home, although I worked from home, and we would try to negotiate in that moment who was going to do what. Well, that's really stressful, especially if you have a hungry child or a child who just you know, is screaming in the background. And so we had to kind of take a step back and go, how can we— what, what else can we do here? What kind of mechanism can we deploy so that we can eliminate that 4 to 6 PM stress, which is going to spill over into other realms of our relationship? Um, it doesn't— like, you don't go to— you don't stop working after 6 either. You don't start parenting, you know. And none of this is like— this is all fluid. So So what we negotiated was that my husband would shift his hours and he would start working earlier in the day. And because my work was sort of— it got more intense after 3 PM. He's more of a morning person anyway. So we're like, okay, let's just leverage our— but like what's already working for us. So he would get up earlier and do an earlier, like 7 to 4, and come home and be the full-time caregiver until 6. Or sometimes, you know, but then at least we have a plan, we have a fallback plan. Sometimes it was like I would do it, but it was at least like a default that worked for us and it, and it continued to work for us until we felt like we could, um, give our childcare provider more hours, you know, and, and it worked for us. So like sometimes you just need to like stop and go, this isn't working and it's not our fault, but we haven't really thought this through. What are some other resources at our disposal, things that we can invest in, help we can bring in, a rearrangement of our, of our workflow so that we can accommodate for what is really the most important thing right now, which is taking care of our kid and making sure that our kid— like, that's the most important thing. You know, my job is important, your job's important, but our child's life is, is most important. And anchoring it in that what is the most important thing Sometimes it resolves. You quickly can identify the solutions when you are clear on the most important thing that the two of you need to accomplish together.

I, I love that, that you're saying that, uh, identify that first because then both of you are standing for that, right? Right. From that perspective, it's not like me against you, it's like we standing for this common purpose. I love what you're saying about the contract, because I think for real estate investors, that, that works well in our brains.

Yeah.

And I always keep thinking about, okay, property management company and raising the rent, there's an expiration. Yeah, right. So then it's time for us to sit down. So I also encourage, you know, to plan that ahead. Well, when things happen, of course, let's sit down and rewrite the contract. But like, okay, in the midst of all the minutiae, we might forget to do that and make assumptions. And then the conflict and the turbulence and the chaos comes. That's a kind of a sign that we might have to sit down and rewrite the terms. And I really appreciate the fact that this is on the table to be discussed instead of saying, well, but when we got married, You said, or he said, she said, whatever that might be. I don't think that that's the, the, the goal here, but creating the habit to renegotiate the contract. I think that's huge for a lot of, a lot of couples that are working together or for the couples that are dating right now. You have the opportunity. Please talk about this before you, you, you get married.

And marriage is a contract.

Okay.

You're right.

If you wanna believe that, agree to that or not, I, I am on the same page. It is a contract. I think that we as women, we are, um, we get roles that we didn't sign up for because of assumptions or, or we are not even conscious about it is the default. And I think we need to start having those conversations to say, okay, I, Andresa, horrible cook. I should not be in charge of cooking. So what are— what is the plan over here instead of, you know, putting myself in that position? But in terms of habits, I think that creating these healthy habits with, with a spouse and healthy habits about— we are evolving here, our family is evolving, and our family habits financial habits. We can look at other models, but we can create our, our own. And I love what you, you're creating. So for you, uh, I'm curious about like what were the, the— besides having that negotiation of contract, what other healthy habits, uh, that you created for yourself or for Nourish in relationship to, to money, how you evolved?

Well, I like to leverage a lot of technology and tools. You know, I am the daughter of a scientist, and I think I, um, I don't— I'm not hesitant to work with the trusted technologies that, whether that's an app or just, you know, checking in with the various websites that, that house my money. I think it's important to be in the know. That is something that I think is foundational. A lot of us don't want to look at our money, we don't want to think about it, we don't want to look at our portfolios. And I get it. I mean, don't do it if you think it's going to create, um, panic and, and then you might do something you'll regret. Like you look at your 401k right now or your IRA and you're going to panic because it's let down from last year. That's almost all of us. So, uh, it's important to have that context and, and hopefully that won't discourage you and you'll just stay the course. But I love looking at the numbers. It gives me comfort to see where I stand. You know, there's nothing like the truth. And, you know, it's, it's very easy to try to be in denial of your finances, but, you know, the numbers keep you honest. And so I do that, whether it's— I use, you know, a person— I use the app Personal Capital. They don't pay me. I just like them. They're the first step level of it is free. You just get— my husband and I actually like it because we can tie all of our accounts to it. And I actually just bugged him this morning, just, can you update some of your account passwords because they're not showing up on the Personal Capital and I want to see our net worth. And it's just like, you know, a daily check-in. You have to know yourself. If you're going to panic, I wouldn't do it every day, but certainly, you know, periodically checking in with the— with your finances. I used to just look at the ATM receipt in college, and that was my bookkeeper. That got me into trouble because those aren't up to date or up to the minute. I also, when I work, basically I have a business, and so I pay quarterly taxes. It's very easy to get a paycheck and go, oh, I'm rich, this is all my money. But you got to just be really disciplined about putting aside 30 to 40% of that for tax purposes. And so creating an account separately for that so that I don't fool myself into thinking that I have more money than I do. That's happened. And I've faced big tax bills at the end of the year that I begrudgingly paid, but I'm happy to pay my taxes. And I think I'll give you a tip with my husband and I, with our finances. In the beginning of our relationship, it was very helpful to work with a financial financial advisor coming from different financial backgrounds, different financial makeups, accounts, accounts, all that stuff. Having someone who could connect us and be sort of a source of wisdom and direction and kind of take that stress off of me and him was incredibly helpful. I recommend this. You don't need a financial advisor for your entire relationship, But for us in the beginning, it was really helpful to identify some of the holes that we had where she's like, you know, you might wanna get more life insurance. You might wanna set up, you know, you can start a 529 plan for your child before he's even born. I didn't know that. And that's a college savings account, making sure that we were connected to the, the best tax people, the best estate planning folks. So your financial advisor is not just someone who's gonna like move the money in your portfolio. I actually recommend to not get a financial advisor for that. But instead somebody who can look at your holistic life together, your plan together, and say, here's what you're doing great, here's where you have areas for improvement, here are the people in my Rolodex that I know that I think can help you with things that I can't but are related, like taxes, estate planning, life insurance, disability insurance. I didn't know I needed that. I got that. So after a few years of working together, she got us off into a great kind of path where things were working hummingly. And I said, you know, at this point our fee is really just going towards your management of our portfolios, which again, like I said earlier, I love the technology, I love the human touch, but the technology can take care of this. So we moved out of that and now we mostly use robo-advisors. Not all of our money is— it's managed by robo-advisors. Um, which are these automated platforms that are run by the major financial powerhouses like Schwab and Prudential and Fidelity, but also some of the newer companies like SoFi and Ellevest have them too. Essentially the same idea where you put your money, you allow the data robots to sort of design a balanced portfolio for you, it rebalances, and you can automatically contribute. And so We know by now the science has proven that a human being going in and trading your stocks all the time furiously, it actually underperforms just sort of staying the course, buying low-fee index funds, and rebalancing periodically to make sure your allocation is right for you, for your risk tolerance and all of that. Not to get too deep into the whole of investing here, but All this to say that leveraging a little bit of the human touch, but also technology has been helpful to us. And communication. We talk about money not just once a quarter or once a month, but whenever it damn pleases us or feels like it. We text about it. We talk about it. I had to make sure that my husband was getting CC'd on the accountant emails. Very important because sometimes spouses are left out of conversations with third parties. Yeah, whoever initiates a conversation, that financial advisor, that CPA, that lawyer thinks like you're the only person that cares. So you need to like sometimes be an advocate for your spouse and be like, please CC my husband, please include him on all communication because frankly, I don't want to be the messenger of bad news. We should all read this together if we owe something to the IRS that we weren't planning. No, but I think, you know, just being really, uh, insistent on that, on that, on that communication piece is also very foundational to our success as individuals and as, as a couple.

Wonderful.

Before we wrap up, I— in terms of your children, you know, it— a lot that comes up a lot for the women in our community of just, you know, talking about money and talking about investing, and we want our kids to We want our kids to be set up for a different level of life than maybe we, we had, right? And we don't want them to be, uh, ungrateful, not be able to work hard for it, not be able to like know what the value of working, you know, your ass off and just being. So there's a balancing act of all of that, especially as entrepreneurs. Um, I know I struggled with that with our kids and just being mindful of that. So I'm curious, not just from an entrepreneur's perspective, but from a money perspective, what are kind of like, if our kids get nothing else— I mean, you're like, you know, personal finance expert. What are those things that you're just like, if nothing else, they're going to get this about money?

That's such a good question. And no one's ever framed it like that to me. But I think, oh gosh, if nothing else, I hope that they learn to delay gratification. and that 100% shows up in your financial life. You know, the marshmallow experiment from, I think it was like 1980 or whenever. Um, well, they followed up with those kids who were, you know, back. Yeah. So this is just for those of us who aren't familiar. This was a very famous study. Scientists wanted to know if given the option, would kids, um, want to eat a marshmallow today, now, in like this minute, or wait 5 minutes and eat 2 marshmallows? I'm getting the study wrong, but you get the point. Like, like, get an immediate gratification now or double the gratification later, which, I mean, it's proven to be like one of the most important life skills to be able to play that long game, to be patient, to not be discouraged, to be able to know what it's like to build up, build up for something, and enjoy the the ride, anticipating whether it's like building that business or improving your finances, getting out of debt, saving more. I think, um, you know, money is not a short game, it's a long game, mastering your money. And, and I think that if they have at the end of the day that core tendency to say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna wait for it, I'm gonna— I know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, I know that This too shall pass, you know, because when we manage our money irrationally with our emotions and our knee-jerk reactions to external factors that are out of our control— how many times have I seen people take money out of their retirement accounts as soon as the market takes a dip, or quit that entrepreneurial pursuit the first failure they encounter? I think that all of this then goes back to, you know, your ability to be financially successful But what that sort of skill set that was lacking was probably the ability to like stick that stick-through-it-ness. So it's to be able to delay gratification, stick-through-it-ness. I mean, look, I also want them to say, see that, you know, sometimes money is a struggle. I don't want them to just see that like mom and dad have this great, perfect career life. They make money, we— they buy us things, we go on trips, and there's never— sometimes if we're struggling, I want to let them know they're too young right now. But if like if my son was like 13 and I just was facing a huge IRS bill or I did have a failure in my business, I would let him know. Because I think that another thing that I've read is that it's not about hiding the failures from your kids or hiding the arguments between your spouse from your kids about money. They need to see the other side of it. So if you're going to invite them into your financial life to show them the mess or to show them what's your work, what you're working on, the improvements that you need to make. Also show them how you get to that finish line. They need to see the results so that they can learn that, like, there is again this too shall pass, that mom and dad worked hard and then they got the thing that they wanted. And, and that's how you get things, is that you stick to it, you work hard, you don't give up, you access your resources, you become creative, you become resourceful. Taking your kid through that journey. So they're too young now to sort of be exposed to some of that, but that is what I, I'm intentionally anticipating and, and waiting to do because, um, I don't want them to just see the straight line. I didn't, and I know that benefited me.

It's great. That's awesome. I love that because it's— I have a 9-year-old and a 5-year-old, right? And it's— and, and Showing or even talking about what isn't working in the businesses that we have, or, and how we're going to move through it, is so valuable. It's almost like, start, start talking a little more about that at dinner, the dinner table. Or yeah, we have, we have a monthly family meeting where we talk about our goals and incorporating that, like, what challenge did you have to overcome? I think that's great. Um, because yeah, you tend to sometimes go on the positive, like what's working, you know.

So I love that.

Great.

You think they don't get it, you think they won't get it, you think they won't understand, you think that might traumatize them. But, um, I think there is such a gift in seeing your parents, um, like, overcome, you know. Like, my parents as immigrants, they overcame so much, and I don't forget that. And it's why I work hard, because I think I read the other day, um, it was an immigrant's narrative. He was like I can't be lazy because my parents who immigrated here, you know, with, um, very little and so much to risk— what? You know, like, I am supposed to be— I'm supposed to carry the torch. I'm the legacy. And I grew up in a world where I had freedoms, where I had more access than they ever did, where I had things provided for me that they didn't. So what is my excuse? Because, oh, things didn't go my way that one time, I'm going to give up. No, no, no. That's not how this works. This is part of the journey. And you know that, that there's, there's more for you waiting. I had—

when I— today I didn't take— I took my son to school. Usually he takes the bus, but I took him to school today. And on the way there, I was asked— I asked him to scale his likability of the school. He's like, 9 out of 10, I really like the school. I was like, great, because, uh, Mommy works very hard, uh, to, to pay for this school. And then we got into the minutia about how much does it cost, and he, he goes to a private school. And then he's like, wow, um, why did you choose this school for me? I was like, well, Mommy did a lot of research And this is the best school that I have found, the system and where it is, how safe it is, the teachers, they're well prepared. He's like, oh, thank you. And I was like, you're, you're, you're welcome, honey. Enjoy the school. Take it, everything that you can out of it, because we are, we're every day, right? We work. To give you the best of it, but I don't want you to think that this is a given. This is not a given. This is not everybody. It's not all the kids that have the privilege that you have. And so we're going to be grateful for it. We'll continue doing it. It was great for him to— he's 7. He already start understanding what is a dollar, $100, $1,000, or what is it for him? It's a lot, right? So it's great to start having those money conversations with him and saying, this is not just easy to just say, yeah, just go there. No, no, we, we, it's intentional. It is, is work. It's, it's, it's work. So it's great to start having those.

And on the flip side, it's like, you know, what do you want, right? So it's good to want things and to say, hey, I have a goal here to, to do this, you know, or to, to buy this. Okay, so let's talk about, talk about that because it's like, I want to spend all my Christmas money right now. Like, right, okay, let's talk about that.

Um, one of my dear friends, Susan Beacham, she runs a company called Money Savvy Generation. It's for kids and literacy, and she's been doing it for 25 years. One of the first stories I ever covered as a journalist. I found Susan and I was like, I need to write about you. And it was just, um, a great, uh, encounter. And she's been a mentor to me as an older woman who's run a business and also as a mom. And one of her best tips on how to raise money-savvy kids— this is her business, she's got two grown daughters— is when your child comes to you and says, I want, you don't say no. You say, let's write it down, make a list. And if they're too young to write, they draw. But the point of the exercise is to demonstrate to your children that what they want is potentially possible, but maybe they have to prioritize. Maybe they have a too long of a list and there's only one birthday coming up and they're going to have to prioritize. Or, you know, if they're a little bit older, it's like, well, this is the budget. So if this is like, you know, sometimes just pen to paper. I don't know about you, but I'm a writer. Like, I just— yeah, it like translates differently for me and it makes things more concrete.

Nice.

And that's— it's an old school tip, but it has benefited for generations.

I like that.

Pernice, this has been an amazing episode. Thank you so much for sharing all your wisdom and way of being with us in the audience. Where can the ladies listening learn more about you and follow you along your amazing journey?

Thank you so much for having me. I've loved so much of this conversation. Listen, I have a podcast 3 days a week. I'd love for you to come hang out with me there. It's called So Money, and it's in its 8th year, which is like 106.

Congrats.

Congrats.

Thank you. Thank you. It's been truly, at this point, the longest thing I've ever done that I've stuck with. And so that has to count for something. And like I mentioned, stay tuned for the book, which is out in October. It's called A Healthy State of Panic. I will be sending you both personally signed copies. Oh, I'm excited for it and appreciate you again having me on. And congrats on all of your successes.

Awesome. All this information and the links will be on our show notes. Now we're going to transition to our fabulous 3 questions. And the first one for Nush is what's the most transformational book book you ever read?

The most transformational book. Um, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. I don't know if it was transformational, but I, I think it was my favorite book growing up, and it was The Bridge to Terabithia. Did any of you ever read The Bridge to Terabithia? Your children might be reading it next in their classrooms. It's a classic, and it's about a friendship between a young girl and a young boy, and And there's a tragic— there's a tragedy in it, but it really for me was like, oh, it just, it, it just moved me. And I think it taught me about how to be close to someone, how to really be in a relationship with a friend or a partner, anybody, like how to be your— how to be yourself. I was a kid who felt a lot of rejection and loneliness growing up, and I think that book made me feel seen. And I mean, I would reread it as an adult, and I would— I gift it to, to kids now. I just think— and actually, they based a movie off of it called My Girl with, um, uh, Anna Chlumsky. Oh yeah, Macaulay Culkin, I think. Oh yeah, yeah, it's, it's similar. I don't know if it was a derivative of that or if it was just inspired, but it was about, again, a young, a young childhood friendship that, um, just, yeah, was, was very powerful and, and stayed with them as they grew up and with me.

Awesome.

Second question is, what's the most powerful routine that you do to create a financially free and balanced life, whatever balance means to you?

Oh, I don't do it all myself. I can't balance it all myself. I invite the help of others, whether that's my bookkeeper, my financial, um, my accountant, um, you know, and, and also I lean on other experts. I'm not the only expert in the room. There's so much inspiration, there's so much inspiration out there. So I make sure that whoever I'm following, um, feeds me that.

Last question: which woman, famous or not, has inspired you the most?

Oh my gosh. Well, I will say, because she just passed, Barbara Walters. Uh, I didn't realize just how influential she has been in my career path and in my desire to pursue storytelling. Without Barbara, as we know, there wouldn't be so many newstellers, journalists of women, and at least not in the celebratory way that we have them now and in the honor that we have them now. I think that we're only now starting to learn just how fierce she was and how good, good she was at her job, how deserving she was to be in that anchor chair. And to be on the front lines reporting and to have the success that she had. And I'm very grateful for— I never met her, but, you know, again, it's like you don't need to meet your heroes, you don't need to meet your mentors. Simply just observing their actions and their words is, is fuel.

Yeah. Thank you so much for being on our show. Appreciate your time and sharing of your wisdom and just sharing of yourself. So thank you. Thank you for taking all the time you did today to be with us.

Thank you.

Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast and want to receive updates on our next interviews, go to our website, therealestateinvestor.com. There you can subscribe to our show, become part of our investor community, and get updates on upcoming episodes.

If you like our show, please share with other women who would benefit. And don't forget to leave us a rating on iTunes. We'd really appreciate it. And as always, we encourage you to take one action as a result of today's show and put it into motion so you can live both a financially free and balanced life. Thanks for spending time with us.

Ciao.