A recorded interview between James Laughlin and politician David Seymour about leadership decisions needed for New Zealand's future. Seymour emphasizes seeking win–win policy outcomes across groups (e.g., environmentalists and farmers, landlords and tenants, employers and employees), the need for political courage to make long-term fiscal decisions (notably raising the retirement age for superannuation), and the value of integrity. He also describes formative personal influences—particularly his mother's overcoming disability, the role of the welfare state in genuine misfortune, and family experience in contracting—that shaped his leadership values.
So what leadership decisions and mindset do we need to be really embracing to make sure that our kids and our grandkids have a really connected, cohesive New Zealand?
I think it's really important to think about what are the possibilities of a win, win situation. So, you know, I look at most of the current government's policies, there tends to be a goodie and a baddie. So, you know, environmentalism, good. Farmers, bad. Landlords, bad. Tenants, good. Employees, good. Small business owners, bad. And then of course, they bring in laws that basically transfer rights from one to the other. But if you think about it, farmers are some of the best. Environmentalists are the only ones who depend on the natural environment for their livelihood. They're not trying to destroy their own farm so they can go broke next year. Year. You know, landlords and tenants have a symbiotic relationship. We should be trying to make it easier to be a landlord, bring more people, more competition, more choices for tenants. That's a win, win situation. And in terms of employees and employers, you know, actually, you know, it's another symbiotic relationship. So I think starting to think, win, win, how do we create the environment where people can come together, trade value for value and get stronger together? That's really important for New Zealand. We haven't had enough of that win, win thinking. And I think the other thing is being prepared to actually say things that may be unpopular initially, rather than just be terrified of the polls and the media. I mean, I'll give you a classic example. Basically every country in the west that I can think of think of, you know, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Israel, Taiwan, Britain, America, Australia, Germany, all of them are raising their age of entitlement to superannuation. And the reasons are simple. People are living longer and they're having fewer kids, so there's more retirees, less taxpayers. And the ratio doesn't work. The simplest way to shift the ratio is to shift the age. And, and it's fair and just because if people are living longer and healthier, they don't need retirement income as early as they may have in the past.
It's basic mathematics, right?
Yeah. It's just arithmetic. And, you know, ACT has never flinched from standing up as long as I've been in Parliament saying this needs to happen and it's actually going to be easier if we start earlier. So labor are now, despite having criticised national for not raising it in opposition 10 years ago, now staking their campaign on we will keep the age at 65. The Nats are now saying, no, no, no, we will raise it. But what they're not telling you is they want to start adjusting the age in 2044. In other words, in 20 years, which interestingly, their last announcement in 2017 was that they'd start in 2027. So they're always promising to do something in 20 years time. That's an example where political leaders need to stand up, have the courage of their convictions, explain the maths and say, this is why we're doing it. Ultimately it's fair and it's in your best interest because you don't want to over tax young people, have them bucker off to Australia because then you've got a really big problem with affording. Super. So, you know, that's the other thing I think, think win, win, but also be prepared to make hard calls and explain them rather than, you know, I can't say anything vaguely unpopular because I might lose a vote at the margin. Yeah, you might. But I think you get more votes in the long term if people believe that you have integrity and are truly committed to the country. And while, and I get this a lot, so I don't always agree with David Seymour, but at least, and that's, I think, more important than, you know, chasing every single polling figure.
And I love the word integrity. As you were speaking, I was thinking of integrity and congruence and clearly they're important values for you. So what shaped your values, your leadership values? Were there people in your life at a young age who really shaped how you see the world?
Yeah, I mean, you know, a lot of people start with their mom. In fact, that's a biological fact.
My mom was interesting in that she was one of the last people in the Western world to contract the polio virus. Wow. And you know, being born in 1956, totally different attitude to people with a disability then. I mean, now, of course, if somebody's living with a disability, we all, you know, do everything we can to try and, you know, treat them as people. But for that disability, which we try and help them overcome by being as courteous and helpful as possible, or at least that's what I would hope. Back in her time, I think she got the sense from a lot of people that having a disability was almost like you're letting the side down a bit. Totally different view. So she was told that she wouldn't walk, she wouldn't drive, she wouldn't have kids, she wouldn't work. And long story short, she became the chief pharmacist for the Northland dhb, which involved going to uni which they also said she wouldn't do. She, you know, did have, she did, was able to walk thanks to extraordinary surgical procedures in the late 50s and early 60s, which I won't go into the full details of right now, but amazing that she was able to walk against the odds. And she had, you know, two really upstanding kids and one politician, so she managed to do that as well. Although I always said I think the critics were half right about her driving. The reason I tell that story is it's, you know, it's the simple idea, people can make a difference. It's not like bad weather, you know, you can overcome things. But she overcame it with help with a generous welfare state that was there for you if you had true misfortune. And you know, at that time New Zealand was, I think one of the top three wealthiest countries in the world, mainly thanks to selling wool to the Korean War, but that's another story. And you know, they were able to do world leading surgery to help people in need. So that's a vision of New Zealand. People can make a difference and the state is necessary but in concentrated ways for genuine misfortune, not, you know, just handing out money to win the next election. My, her father and my grandfather and their wider family, they were electrical contractors. So they had a business where you come in at the end of the job when things are already behind time. You know, you have all sorts of things that can go wrong in contracting. You're usually doing one job to pay for the last one. And I, I grew up hearing about the effects of exchange rates. Copper price is very important when you're pulling cables. A lot of copper there and the copper price can affect that pretty quickly.
And so, you know, I grew up hearing about the trials and tribulations of business on a pretty sort of edgy end of business being electrical contracting. So that really shaped me too that I don't see business as bad. I think when people know entrepreneurs, workers, investors and customers, you know, it's four types of people voluntarily coming together to provide what can't be done by any of them alone. I think that's actually a beautiful thing. But unfortunately, oftentimes you find that business gets beaten for some reason because it's somehow sinister. I think that's wrong.
