Dr Haley Perlus Reveals the #1 Mental Skill of High Performers

Today I welcome back Dr. Haley Perlis, one of the top sports psychologists on the planet. And today we're going to really focus in on mental toughness, particularly for those high pressure situations. Sit back and enjoy the show. The Lead on Purpose podcast is sponsored by NZ Mortgages. Learn more at NZMortgages Co NZ. Dr. Hayley Perlis, a huge welcome back to the Lead on Purpose podcast.

James, so good to be here. So excited. I get to. Your enthusiasm is contagious. So now I get to be live with you again.

I'm so delighted that you're back because we probably only had two or three guests that we've invited back, but I literally said to you the last time we chatted, I think we need like 100 conversations. There's so many things I want to understand about how you do and what you do. But what happened since we last chatted in Nye is you brought a book out personal podium. And that in and of itself distilling your wisdom down into a book that's practical, that everyone globally can get their hands on that, that's a fine art. And there's so much in that book and I want to unpack some of the gold. Before we do that though, for the listener who hasn't had a chance to connect with you yet, please tell them a little bit about your work and the types of people that you do work with currently.

Sure. So my background is sport psychology and I'm one of the lucky ones that chose my career at 12 years old. And it wasn't to be a fighter pilot or a fireman, it was to be a sports psychologist. And I stayed with it. And today I am a speaker. So I do keynotes and training workshops. I'm an author and a content creator and then I'm a consultant. So I have a private practice working with athletes and executives. And then my speaking is actually mainly in the corporate world. But, but there's, you know, I also just embrace getting to work with teams too. That's more of a consulting than, than the speaking business.

I love it. Amazing. And you work with some of literally the most elite athletes on the planet, helping them to go from great to greater.

I have a passion for, I mean, I work with all levels and all sports, but I also have a passion for, like you said that 18 to 25, the college level, the Olympic level, the X Games level, where they're, you know, trying to get pro, get to the pros, and then some great, great professional players that are just, you know, they just want to keep going. They just want to keep seeing what they're made of. And so I love to help them find that.

Yeah, I can see that. The, the joy that you get from that. You ooze this joy and this passion when you talk about what you do and who you work with. And it's just incredible to see. So I'd love to dive into that a little bit and hopefully we can pull some stuff from the book as well. I will put actually a link in the show notes for those that are keen to go and get the book, and a link also to your website so they can come and check out some of the amazing masterclasses that you're currently running. But I was recently, just last week in Melbourne at the Australian Open. First week, essentially round one to four, and I was observing a lot and just being curious about what I was seeing. And curious not only on the top talent, the top one to 10, but also looking at the up and coming. There's a few incredible young athletes holding. There's a great young athlete, actually Nijesh from America, who was up against Novak and gave him a run for his money. It was outstanding. But what I did notice was some of the great players.

Were probably lacking some mental tools. And it surprised me more than anything. I was just observing and not from a critical standpoint, but from a standpoint of, wow, they're great. I think they could be greater. I think there's, there's a gap there that if they could fill that gap and heighten their self awareness and develop some tools that are bespoke to what they need, goodness knows what's possible. So over the years, I've met with lots of people who have different tools. Some conflict with others, different modalities come in. What do you believe truly works when an athlete is in the arena? The pressure's on, something goes wrong or a number of little faults happen in any sport, they start to feel angry, they're starting to express that their body language, their actual language is deteriorating. What do you know works in that situation?

I think the best lesson that these athletes and all of us need to learn is that the winner, the athlete who stands on top of the podium at the end of the day is not the perfect athlete, but the athlete that best recovers. And so Novak Djokovic, you're mentioning tennis, so I'll just bring him up. He did a fabulous interview on 60 Minutes last year and he says, what's this? Kind of rolls his eyes and all this positive thinking. We're human, we're allowed to be, like you just said, frustrated, worried, afraid, a little bit of anxiety. We're allowed to feel that. But what separates the great from just the very good.

Are the people who can acknowledge those moments, those unpleasant emotions, deal with them, and then quickly recover.

And I think that is the key. And at the professional level and in. Even in the business world, when we're growing and growing and expanding our businesses, more pressure is coming on. And there's pressure from the inside. There's pressure from the inside. You have this brand, you have this business, you have all these responsibilities, and you have to have the ability in the moment to tune that out. And in the moment, it's just you and your fundamental skills. It's just you and the game. It's you and the sport. It's you and the competition. And when things go badly, quickly acknowledge it, vent it out as best you can and as however you need to. Don't throw and break things, but you know what I mean? Do it in a. In a, you know, diplomatic way. And then you have to recover. And I honestly think that it's. The athletes who best recover are going to be at the top of the end of the day, beautiful.

I look at this, I guess this refractory period where something happens. They get angry, upset, disappointed, and they sit in this emotional state. And some of them, it will literally be the end of the game. That's it. We know they're done, it's gone. Others, It'll be like five seconds, maybe 30 seconds of anger, frustration, body language. But then all of a sudden, there's a quick switch. That's what I'm really interested in, is what are the ways that we can switch and how do we speed that up? So what are some of the tools you can think of that we can reframe? We can refocus?

Yeah, there's a. So we kind of look at it in two different categories. So there's the mind body, and then there's the body mind. So the mind body is that I'm doing something with my mind. A visualization, an affirmation, a mantra, you know, with my mind that then immediately resets my mind and my body, because our thoughts influence our physical chemistry. But then there's also things that you can do to your body. Deep breathing from your diaphragm, something that I don't call, but we call progressive muscular relaxation. It's like I tense my entire body really quickly for 10 seconds, vent all that anxiety, and. And then I intentionally recover. So I'm recovering my body and Then that plays a role in my mind. So. But it's these quick little techniques, these tools, and you have to know what works best for you. Sometimes we go to our mind, that then resets our body. Sometimes our body, then that resets our mind. But it's not about completely dismissing the emotions, because again, we're human. It's about working with them. But I will say, just like last week, I was working with an athlete and he had had an unfortunate circumstance. Sport is not fair. Life is not fair. So he had an unfortunate circumstance and he was angry. And so he wanted to be mentally tough. And we've been working together for a while, and he said, so I'm trying to use my anger. You know that the best example is, if you tell me I can't, I'll show you 100 ways how I can. Right? He was trying to use that anger, but it wasn't working. Why? Because he doesn't perform well feeling angry.

So we needed to help him understand that, yes, you have this anger, but we need to figure out how to set it aside for the moment. Right. Using some of the techniques that I just showed you, and then transfer in what is his optimal emotional state, which is one of challenge and passion and excitement.

So he. It's not just about, okay, how do I feel? And then best use those emotions. And it's also understanding what is my best emotional state and then doing what you asked. You know, those little triggers to work through the motions that aren't hurt, that aren't helping me, and bring upon the emotions that will.

I love that. So what I'm hearing, I guess from my own point of view, is that the emotions are not good or bad. They're actually maybe more so useful or unuseful in terms of me performing at my best.

Absolutely. So if we look at our emotions, I like to categorize them into four. So one would be our survival emotions, our anger, fear, worry, frustration, anxiety. Now, long term, if we're chronically living in those emotions, well, that's a bad sign. I mean, that can have a huge detriment to your mind and your body. And illnesses come from that. Burnout comes from that. But I know for me, sometimes I need a little swift kick in the rear end to get going. You know, sometimes I consider myself to be a procrastinator. Cause I get a little bit of that worry and that fear. So that can be. It's an igniter for some. But if we live there, that's when the unpleasant emotions can turn negative. But initially they May actually be beneficial for some. Then we have our optimal emotions. Challenge, excitement, passion. And I know that's where I thrive. And those emotions can turn on that switch and allow me to persist. Then we have our sadness and our burnout and feeling deflated, feeling hopeless. Those emotions, which, again, can be good at the beginning because they create self awareness, self discovery, A little bit of. We need a little bit of polarization. This doesn't feel good. So how do I get back over there? So there's learning. But if we live in those too long, mental illness can take shape. And then we have our calm and our peace and our reflection, and that's where we renew energy. And so those are. But if we live there, we become complacent. So every emotion has a purpose and every emotion has a consequence. And we have to learn which ones best serve ourselves for certain situations.

Brilliant. And have you ever seen an athlete perform optimally in that anger zone? That's what they need to be. Is that a thing.

They'Ll tell you it is.

I do think it's good for some, for that ignition to ignite that fire. So one of the greatest examples is Michael Jordan. You know, Michael Jordan always says that he loves rivalries. He'll create a rival. He used to create a rivalry if even if there wasn't one. So love it. And I think I, I, when I researched him, he'd have his entourage. This was back before social media, but that he had his entourage. Entourage bring newspaper clippings of all the negative things people were saying about him, and they use that to fire him up. But then when he stepped onto the basketball court, it was all about strategy and challenge tactics. And so I believe maybe he used that.

Anger to ignite. But I do believe he transferred from anger to challenge when it was time to make things happen.

That's brilliant. I love that movement. Like you're saying, the highest performers understand how to move through those emotions and actually move to them when they need to.

You get in the driver's seat. We're emotional creatures. Emotion trumps logic most of the time. But part of mental toughness, part of performance psychology, is understanding the emotions, Understanding how you thrive with every emotion and then getting yourself back in the driver's seat and making the most of your emotions for high performance.

I love that. And let's talk about this idea of mind body to start with. So I'm frustrated. Things aren't going well. I might be losing the game, and I want to take charge. I want to go mind body. So what are some of the things I might say or do mentally that could shift things.

Sure. So every thought that we have has an emotional reaction. Now vice versa. But let's just focus on our thoughts impact our emotions. Our emotions then alter our heart rate, our muscle tension, our neuro, you know, all the chemicals and hormones which then influences our behavior. So when it comes to our mindset, I like to do two techniques and one is called reframing, which a lot of us have heard about. And the other one is called countering. And so I'll go through both with an example if I can, I'll share a story. I have an athlete who is was intimidated by opponents. So in practice he was performing really well in competition he was intimidated and so his thought was all about what are they going to do to beat me? And then self fulfilling prophecy, they would beat him. So we went through a reframing technique and from a. Because you asked the mind body, why did they beat him? Because he was stiff. Right. That anxiety from the intimidation created a stiff body and you just can't be fluid. You lack coordination. You either speed up or slow down. You make mistakes physically. So he had to go from oh no, what are they going to do to beat me? To thank you opponents for showing up today. I want to win when I know I'm competing against my greatest opponents. And that's who you are. And I'm going to use your motive, your energy to motivate me to bring my best performance and kick your butt.

I love that.

So he redid the reframing technique and in three months after visualizing it and journaling it and talking about it, he not only beat his three opponents, he actually became the junior world champion in his sport.

Yes, he did. Well done.

Yeah. And then you have something called countering. And there are times when it's really hard to completely reframe and see the sunshine and rainbows. Right. Sometimes things just simply. It's really just hard. I'm not feeling good. I want you then to counter your thought. And what that means is look at your thought and let's just have an example. I actually just recorded a mental toughness moment video this morning about it. Let's just use the example I'm slow. Maybe it's a runner and you're slow. How do you counter that thought? You have to look for ways that you can poke holes in that statement. I may have been slow today, but I wasn't slow last week. I may be slow because I haven't run in three months because I'm Just recovering from an injury. I may be slow because I just started training for this upcoming 10k race and I don't have the skills yet skill set. So it's not that I'm slow, period, can't do anything about it. It's poking holes at it. And I'm not giving you an out, but I'm giving you an opportunity to look for where you can take responsibility and improve. And now you have a challenge instead of a threat. And now you can go and embrace that challenge and develop your leg strength and develop your running technique and give yourself more recovery time, because now you know better and you know, go make things happen. So reframing, encountering, really powerful.

And it's amazing how common sense the tools are, but how often common sense isn't common practice. We just don't do it. We push it back. I don't need that. It's fantastic. And this idea of visualization.

Obviously that's been around for a long time in terms of visualization, can help us focus on what we want to become or how we want to perform. Are there any tips that you would suggest that we need to make sure we understand when it comes to visualization so that we're not just wasting time in our minds, we're actually being very structured with it.

I think most of us think of visualization as either rehearsing, like mentally going over a past performance and doing it better or right this time, or recreating an upcoming experience and being perfect at it. And do that. Hold on to that. In addition, remember what I said, the person, the winner, whatever winning means to you, the winner is not the perfect performer. It's the one that best recovers. So you have to visualize yourself having the best recovery. And we know, we know what kind of mistakes we make. We know what can happen. So you play the what if game, what if this happens? And then you visualize yourself being your best recoverer. What if this happens? You visualize yourself being the best recoverer you can be. We need to put that into our imagery sessions.

Wow, I love that you said that. The fighter, Georges St. Pierre, shared that. Hey, I literally spent hours picturing being in a lock or a hold, and I looked at 56 ways I could get out of that lock or hold. He said, I went through every lock or hold I could think of, and I visualized that. And that's amazing because as a drummer, when I competed as a drummer, as a youngster, all I would do.

World champion, right?

Very fortunate.

Yeah, you earned.

Took a bit of Time and there was a lot of non world championship wins. A lot of times when I didn't win multiple more so than I won. Right. I should definitely highlight that. You know, 30 time world champion loser, you know, that's a real thing too. But the times that I was focusing on the visual side of was how can it be perfect? It's a seven minute performance. Visually, I'm going through it three minutes in, I get distracted or I make a mistake, I go back to the start and start again. And I didn't focus on how could I recover from my stick slipping, how could I recover from. At one point, it was in the world championship semifinal, it was in a room, it was way too hot and my glasses started slipping like this and they literally ended like there. It was horrific. So yeah, the judges were kind of laughing. I was not very comfortable and I didn't qualify for the final. Clearly I didn't visualize that as something and you know, I should have focused on what might go wrong and how might I recover. The fact that you've brought that up is just so important. And I imagine you urge your athletes to make that a part of their daily or their regular visualization practice.

Yeah, absolutely. For many reasons. One, it's real. So you want to prepare for the reality. But it also helps us take a remove ourselves or separate ourselves from this idea of needing it to be perfect. I'm a big believer in striving for perfection. I want to be perfect. I don't know anyone who I've ever worked with that didn't want to be perfect. But demanding it of yourself. And maybe that's also what happens with the athletes at the very top who can be even better. They have so much demands on themselves to win every time or, you know, to always achieve what everyone expects them to achieve. That's unnecessary negative anxiety, negative pressure. We have enough pressure as it is, let's not add to it. And I think this preparation of recovery prepares us for what's to come, but it also allows us to understand the realities of this world. And it's not about demanding perfection.

That's really important. And the self talk side of it, the journaling side of it. I'm a big journaler. I love it. It's a place where I get out of my head onto page. I can distill my thinking. It's helpful emotionally, but it's also helpful from a tactical standpoint. As a dad, as a partner, as a business owner, it's brilliant. But for an athlete, getting into the journal and Writing, let's say affirmations that really empower them. Is it about what they want to become or is it writing down in the past tense like I'm already that that's what I am or I have achieved the, the world championship or the Olympic gold. Do you have any advice around what be doing around that self talk?

I think it goes person by person. It really does because some people just know that they're going to achieve it. I saw one of your podcast episodes with Finn who won the Olympic slalom in New. And you asked him straight up, did you think he could do it? And he said yes.

So in that moment, for someone like that who just, who just knows it, absolutely. Go and write it. Draw pictures of yourself, of yourself getting the gold medal. Write it down. Champion, champion, champion. There are others who may not have, who believe in their ability, but they may not be so have such conviction. Maybe I'd get them to journal something else because I want them, whatever they're journaling, I want them to really buy into it. And then that trust grows and grows to where they get to as place where they can then say I'm going to be the champion. For other athletes it's almost like, and I hate to make this parallel because it won't sound fun but you know, not anymore probably. But when we were young or our parents were young and they had detention at school, the movies where they make you write the same word a million times on the chalkboard, I did that.

If there's a new technique or a new tactic that an athlete's working on and they have, some are visual, some are, you know, words and they have a cue word. Write it like that's all you journal, just, just. It's almost like doodling. You're just writing that word over and over and over and over again, getting it solidified in here.

Beautiful. I love it. And then this opposite way of the body to mind. What's the difference? What are some of the tools we can use body wise? Are there certain movements, as you say, breath work, maybe anchors, any like neuro linguistic kind of anchors or anything like that?

Yes. So there's, I mean there's so many, there's tapping, there's deep breathing, there's. I really like progressive muscular relaxation that I mentioned before and I'll explain why. When we're feeling anxious, as I mentioned, our bodies become very tense. We call it bracing. It's like all of your muscles just stress at the same time, which we don't want to happen. Like we have a bicep that flexes while it's stressing our bicep, our triceps relaxing. And then when we want to work our tricep, we have to relax our biceps so they work in relationship with each other. But when we're bracing, everything just goes so you can't move. And I've heard coaches, I've heard leaders say, just relax. I can't. I hear you. I want to. My body won't work, but what we can do is tense even more. So we can go for a tense. From a tense place to an even more tense place for 10 seconds. And now we have somewhere to go in the recovery and the relaxation. And then when you do that.

When I deliver my workshops in person, I get everyone up and we do this exercise, tense, tense, tense. And then we recover and we do it a few times. And you'll feel tingling in your upper body. That's energy. And that energy is there to now help you to perform. And when you feel that energy in your body, it automatically changes your mindset and your emotions.

Incredible. I can totally understand that. And there's times, even from a personal point of view, where I'm about to perform and there'll be a bathroom on the way to the performance, and I'll go in there, run my hands under cold water, because sweaty palms as a drummer is not very helpful.

No.

And also, I literally do this and hold my fist super tight, forearms and upper arms super tight. And I don't know why I did it, but then afterwards, I shake my hands out and I feel good. And I'm mentally clear that the nerves have kind of moved forward. In tennis, for example, I guess in between sets they get to go and sit down. That's maybe an opportunity for them to.

Do this kind of practice, even in between points. Actually, one of my mentors and idols, Dr. Jim Lehrer, who's a sports psychologist too, and worked with many tennis players, he developed something called the 16 second reset.

Okay.

And then he brought it into the corporate world with my other mentor, Dr. Jack Groppel. They created the 16 second recovery for people who, if you're. If you have just 16 seconds between phone calls, and if you're a tennis player, 16 second between points, and you come up with this series. And the first one is set your body right. So take your shoulders up, back, and down. And I like to add in the smile, you know, and then do something that's a deep breath. Maybe it's a progressive relaxation. Maybe if you are a tennis player or a golfer or something. Where you're a rugby player and you've got the ball, like, you know, you squeeze that ball or you squeeze that club and then, and then you relax because you don't want to. That's how you want to perform. And then you take that breath and then you set your mind. So sometimes moving your body, in fact, I will tell you that moving your body doesn't have to be exercise. Moving your body for just a minute. And if you attach, if you attach it to being outside, scientifically proven to be the best way to change your.

Emotional state, to get out into nature.

Natural light, and get that energy flowing through your body and it automatically changes your mind and your emotions.

Incredible. And how simple. We can all do that. Oh yeah, that's powerful. And the other thing, I guess I notice a lot. So I work with a lot of rugby players, professional athletes who don't have a lot of time, but they do have microseconds. And often, you know, one of the greatest would be it just blow along his fingers. And I'd often say, why are you doing that? Like, what's going on there? Tell me more. And he's like, oh, most people never notice. Nobody's ever really asked me. And he's like, it just grounds me. Like I've just been touching the ball, touching the grass. My fingers smell of like grass and soil. And I grew up on a farm and it really grounds me. I just blow on them, breathe in, blow on them, breathe in. And I've seen other players, like tennis players, just they're literally wiping and it looks like, oh, they're wiping the sweat off. But I think it's more, I think it's more so tapping.

Because that's one of the areas, I guess, with eft. So the tapping side of things, for people who are a bit skeptical or that's woo woo. What's your beliefs around tapping?

Because that's one of the areas, I guess, with eft. So the tapping side of things, for people who are a bit skeptical or that's woo, woo. What's your beliefs around tapping and how that can actually support high performance?

So I like to keep things simple. I believe it's energy, I believe that you're tapping and, and I mean there's, there's choreography to it, there's patterns to it, there's instruction. But then I like everything like you just said, you know, the blowing of your fingers and the like, that's a personal, that's a personal invention of maybe a formal, scientifically proven technique. Right? That's the thing I love about performance psychology, it's both the science and art. We learn the fundamentals and then like Frank Sinatra, we do it our way. And so tapping to me is, is eliciting energy. It's telling your body to, to connect back in, to get back centered. And I really like the, the energy. I mean, I personally will add some jumping to it and then, you know, like this. I actually, I didn't, I didn't create it. I found it on Instagram, funny enough. And I was like, I'm gonna do this in my little 16 second resets when I'm giving a presentation. So we all jump and I'm not gonna get up and jump right now, but we shake our hands and then it's like this moving this way and then it's getting focused in the center, like you said, you know, tapping here, tapping here, tapping here, and also our shoulders. Just creating energy, I think is the simplest way to start. So for those people who are skeptical, even with meditation, it's very similar. You don't always have to think that it's going to be this 15 minute centered, you know, with a, with one word that you're going to repeat for 15 seconds or a whole big tapping choreography. Let's just get simple with it and let's just start it out stage by stage and see what, and see what happens.

Laxity kills execution. I love that idea of, like, how simple can we make it? Because when there's multiple steps or it's very scientific, most of us are not going to engage in it. Certainly I won't. It has to be super simple and quick and something I can pick up on and connect with. So I like that you say, hey, how can we simplify that?

Yeah. And then here's the kicker, though. People don't always love when I say this because people say, well, sometimes it's too simple that I just forget about it. And then my response is, well, that's on you.

At first it was too complicated. Now we've simplified it.

Now it's on you. Take some responsibility and make things happen for yourself.

I love that. Participate in your own rescue. I love it. And you know, performers who get to the point where they're saying, you know, I'm crap. This is, you know, f'd f this. You can see it. You're watching them, you're like, wow, they're just swearing at themselves and they're angry. What's the best pattern interrupt in terms of shifting that language? Because I imagine telling yourself you're crap and Swearing. There may be some kind of venting that's positive, but there's possibly going to be a point where actually this is really negative.

Yeah. So I like to. Obviously, hopefully I will have worked with someone, you know, off the. Off the performance, out of the performance arena, and I think we have to get really real. And in my humble opinion, being that down on yourself is pretty weak.

I think it. I think it's. I don't think it's mentally tough at all.

Yeah.

And when I can look at someone face to face and once they know how much I care, which I do, and how passionate and, you know, how, you know, I don't say that to be mean. I say that to be helpful, and then that actually sticks with them, that's kind of like an aha for a lot of people. And I've had athletes tell me since you told me that I'm weak, when I get down on myself so much, whenever I get down on myself, I remind myself that's being weak, and I don't want to be weak. I need to turn that around. And immediately, when you're feeling that, I happen to like the reset of going right back to your fundamentals. So in sport, a lot of the best athletes will always say that it comes down to your fundamentals. It always comes down to the fundamental skills. Well, as a performer, you have your own unique fundamental strengths. Those strengths are there with you all the time. You get to choose whether you're going to leave them or use them. And when you're feeling strength that badly, you first have to remember that, hey, this is not. This is not me being tough. This is actually me being weak, and I don't want that. So then you go back to your fundamental strengths, and you start from an area of strength, get that momentum back, get that real confidence back, get that focus back, and then go do what you need to do.

Great way to describe. As you were describing, I was hearing the word mojo. Like, you're just bringing it back. The energy comes back. You're back into the swing of it.

Yeah. But you don't want to keep beating, like, what it was, the comment, beating a dead horse. Like, if you're. You know, I was just. Today I was speaking with an athlete who's. It's just not clicking. It's just not clicking. And the frustration, because I. It clicked two weeks ago, and now I've lost it. And just the frustration. Whoa, wait a second. Let's just. And I can't. The words I can't. So I called him out on it. I'm like, that word can't. That's weak. Because that's not the truth. That we countered that. How do we know that's not the truth?

Well.

Well, I just did it last week. So now we know that it's not the truth. And then it was, okay, let's just forget about what I'm trying to improve upon, and let's just get back into my momentum. How do what you need to do.

Great way to describe it. As you were describing. I was hearing the word mojo. Like, you're just bringing it back. The energy comes back. You're back into the swing of it.

Yeah. But you don't want to keep beating. Like, what's the comment? Beating a dead horse. Like, if you're. You know, I was just. Today I was speaking with an athlete who's. It's just not clicking. It's just not clicking. And the frustration because I. It clicked two weeks ago, and now I've lost that. Be the reset and then go back after that thing that I'm looking at working on. And from there it'll be, maybe I have to change the tactic. Maybe I have to change the strategy. Maybe I just embracing it with a little bit more of an effort. And that's what he had. He. That's what he's going to work on. He says, I think I was, like, demanding it. I was getting frustrated. Now I'm just gonna go chase it again.

Yeah.

Because two weeks ago he was chasing it, and then he got it. Now I have to keep it. So I need him to go back to the chasing.

That's beautiful. The pursuit. And I think when we're in pursuit. I was reading some Arthur C. Brooks work around happiness and being at our best. And he says the research shows we're at our best when we're in the pursuit of enjoyment, satisfaction.

Austin. And just the frustration. Whoa, wait a second. Let's just. And I can't. The words. I can't. So I called him on it. I'm like, that word can't. That's weak. Because that's not the truth. That we countered that. How do we know that's not the truth? Well, I just did it last week. So now we know that it's not the truth.

And then. Or meaning, maybe even purpose. And that idea of the satisfaction one. I like that. He said satisfying things come from overcoming adversity, from doing really hard things, difficult things, uncomfortable things. But when you're pursuing those difficult things, that's when we actually feel happy, content, fulfilled.

It was, okay, let's just forget about what I'm trying to improve upon and let's just get back into my momentum.

And even if there's discomfort, it's part of the journey. So I love how you look at that. And let's say the performer or the parent or the CEO is at the anger stage of a spectrum. And let's pretend on the other end of the spectrum is elation. Joy. Is it reasonable to think they can have a technique that can take them from anger to elation in seconds? Or is it more practical to think actually, what's the next best emotion we can move towards? And tools to help us do that, move across the spectrum towards that, be.

The reset and then go back after that thing that I'm looking at working on.

And.

And from there it'll be, maybe I have to change the tactic, maybe I have to change the strategy. Maybe I just embracing it with a little bit more of an effort. And that's what he.

High performance, happiness, joy, whatever it might be. What do you think? Is there a way we can just skip it and go straight from anger to joy?

I think it depends on the person, and I do think it depends on the situation he had. He. That's what he's going to work on. He says, I think I was, like, demanding it. I was getting frustrated. Now I'm just gonna. And you have to look at both. For me, there are certain situations that I can like, the anger is real, the frustration is real. But all I need to do is put on my theme song and I'm good. Or watch a little video. If I have a video of my nephew who just makes me laugh every time and I'm good. Or go look at my partner, and every time I walk into a room, he looks and smiles at me and I'm good. So there are, you know, but you have to know what works for chase it again.

Yeah.

Because two weeks ago he was chasing it, and then he got it. Now I have to keep it. So I need him to go back to the chasing.

That's beautiful. The pursuit. And I think when we're in pursuit, I was reading some Arthur C. Brooks work around happiness and being at our best for you.

And then there are moments when maybe the situation is a little bit more severe.

And then it takes a little bit more effort, you know, and then I think you're right. It's not going from anger, it's not going from fear to challenge. It's going from fear.

And he says, the research shows we're at our best, when we're in the pursuit of enjoyment, satisfaction, or to a.

Little less fear, to a little less fear, to a little challenge, to more challenged and more challenged, to more challenge. But I do think the same tools apply.

You just may have to use them a little bit longer. You may have to acknowledge the fact that you're not going to go from A to Z.

You may go from A to B and just understand, okay, wait, that's still progress. It's still getting better. So give yourself some grace or meaning, maybe even purpose.

And that idea of the satisfaction one, I like that. He said, satisfying things come from overcoming adversity, from doing really hard things, difficult things, uncomfortable things. But when you're pursuing those difficult things, that's when we actually feel happy, content, fulfilled.

Never let yourself off the hook. Anger doesn't serve you. Do not let yourself sit in anger. Make the move.

That's powerful. I remember our first conversation and I started it with mental toughness is your focus, but what's mental weakness? What's the opposite? And even if there's discomfort, it's part of the journey. So I love, I love how you look at that and sort of that. And you answered it so beautifully. And you said, pretty much it's letting yourself off the hook. Like, keep yourself accountable, do the work, don't chicken out. Like, move into it. Like, face it. I love that you brought that up.

It's funny, I, I went back and I, even though I actually have clips from that, but I watched that particular scene and I was just curious to know if I had the same answer as I the first time we got together. And I do, yes, I believe in letting yourself, giving yourself some grace, never letting yourself off the hook.

Powerful. Let's say the performer or the parent or the CEO is at the anger stage of a spectrum. And let's pretend on the other end of the spectrum is elation, joy. Is it reasonable to think they can have a technique that can take them from anger to elation? And you brought up something earlier about breath. And it's interesting. I'm fascinated around this concept of breath work. Been doing a lot of study on it. We had James Nestor on the show who wrote the book Breath, and it was just fantastic. His insights. I've had a few other stress mitigation experts on the show who focus on breath in seconds. Or is it more practical to think actually, what's the, what's your experience from, you know, from a sports psychology standpoint, around breathing, helping us manage our emotions.

In my line of Work. Breath does two things. Depending on how you're using it, it can calm you down. It could also get you excited, get you more, you know, to use the word aroused. It could increase your heart rate. It could increase, you know, the. The energy. And sometimes we need both. As a ski racer, I remember on the hot days, you know, every next.

Best emotion we can move towards and tools to help us do that move across the spectrum towards high performance, happiness, joy, whatever it might be. What do you think? Is there a way we can just skip it and go straight from anger to joy?

I think it depends on the person, and I do think it depends on the situation. Once you're sitting out there in the sun waiting, and it's just getting hot. And our coaches would teach us how to start breathing and then increase that rate. They'd also put ice down our backs, but increase. But to get the energy going. So I believe in using your breath. And I think sometimes we think of it only as a calming technique, a resetting technique, and you have to look at both. For me, there are certain situations.

You know, when you're feeling anxious, go ahead and just take a deep breath. And I know, I know top performers know this in sports, but we have to remind ourselves. So wait a second. The breath is also to get us excited and to get us in our game and to get us physically in a state of optimal performance. I also ask people to really focus on, like, the diaphragm that I can. Like, the anger is real, the frustration is real. But all I need to do is put on my theme song and I'm good. Or watch a little video. If I have a video of my nephew who just. Just makes me laugh every time and I'm good, or go look at my partner and every time I walk, you know, so we. We know that it's just not shallow breathing. There's real purpose. And the last thing I'll say about breathing is it's amazing when I. I've mentioned it before, when coaches tell their athletes to just relax and they can't because they're tense. Another thing that goes with that is, you know, just walk into a room, he looks and smiles at me, and I'm good. So there are, you know, but you have to know what works for breathe. Just breathe. Well, we're all breathing. You're alive. You're. You may be not happy, but you're breathing. So what do you mean? Breathe? Breathe intentionally. And I know, James, you always talk about doing things intentionally, and so is it going to be nostril breathing, Is it going to be belly breathing? Is it Wim Hof breathing? Is it, you know, any, any type of breath? If you're not doing any type of deep breathing, any breath is going to help you, you know, an intentional for you. And then there are moments when maybe the situation is a little bit more severe.

And then it takes a little bit more effort, you know, and then I think you're right. It's not going from anger, it's not going from fear to challenge. It's going from fear graph, deep breath. And from a mental perspective, it's a pattern interrupt when I can assign choreography. That's why I like nostril breathing or I like putting my hand on my belly and feeling my stomach expand. I like counting, I like having some type of body awareness. Because if I'm engaging my mind in that type of thinking, not thinking about my past stressor, to a little less fear, to a little less fear, to a little challenge, to more challenge, to more challenge, to more challenge. But I my current stressor or my future stressor. So it's a fabulous body regulator, physiological regulator, but it also does wonders to the mind.

Powerful. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. So just it got me thinking about nsdr, the non sleep deep rest. And I've just been kind of playing with that.

I do think the same tools apply.

You just may have to use them a little bit longer. You may have to acknowledge the fact that you're not going to go from A to Z.

You may go from A to B and just understand, okay, wait, that's still progress this last year.

And it's been fascinating actually just how much it can reset the nervous system. And it's deeply breath focused, but also it's very much about focusing on parts of the body and essentially counting as well. So I love that you described that. Have you tried any NSDR with yourself or clients?

I have learned about it often. I think I listened to Andrew Huberman. He always talks about none, non rest, deep sleep. I'm still getting better, so give yourself some grace. I've not used it with my athletes yet. I'm still learning about it. But again, to me, you know, if we're all concerned about not getting enough deep sleep, you know, this is a way that we can do things. Never let yourself off the hook. Anger doesn't serve you. Do not let yourself sit in anger. Make the move.

That's powerful. I remember our first conversation and I started it with mental toughness is your focus, but what's mental weakness? What's the opposite.

Can't really always. We can control our sleep by the preparation of the sleep, but once we're sleeping, we don't really get to control our deep sleep. I, you know, it's, it's, it's not a. I can't command myself once I'm sleeping to get into deep sleep. But while I'm a lot, while I'm awake, I can intentionally put myself into, you know, the best, the best opportunity to achieve that non rest deep sleep. So I love the idea and I like how it's, I think it's helping people get their heads around the concept.

Definitely 100%. And one thing I was going to ask you just of that and you answered it so beautifully and you said pretty much it's letting yourself off the hook, like keep yourself accountable, do it. Before we move towards wrapping up was act. So acceptance and commitment therapy, Is that something that shows up in your practice at all?

Yes, but in a different way.

The work. Don't chicken out, like move into it, like face it. I love that you brought that up.

It's funny, I went back and I, even though I actually have clips from that, but I watched that particular scene and I was just curious to know if I had the same answer as I did the first time we got together. And I do. Yeah. Acceptance and commitment in sports and performance, it's an interesting thing. The level of commitment must be high. I mean the sacrifices and the commitment to the goal. And in the moment, that goal means absolutely everything and nothing else matters. And in the big scheme of things, we need to also be detached from it and we need to accept that, you know, it's not the most important thing, even though you're supposed to address it as if it is.

So that's how I look at. I believe in letting yourself, giving yourself some grace, never letting yourself off the hook.

Powerful.

You know, when it comes to acceptance and commitment, it's, I too think that when we can, when we can, we can figure out how to grasp that concept. And I think, you know, Roger Federer.

And you brought up something earlier about breath. And it's interesting. I'm fascinated around this concept of breath work. Been doing a lot of study on it. We had James Nestor on the show who wrote the book Breath and it was just fantastic. His insights. I've had a few other stress mitigation experts on the show who focus on breath.

We started with tennis, maybe, maybe we continue with tennis. But in his commencement speech this year or in 2024, he talked about this in the moment that point is the only thing that matters and then win or lose, the point no longer matters. And it's accepting that and moving on to the next point because now that point is the only thing that matters. And then win or lose, you know, there's, there's an acceptance piece too.

What's your experience from, you know, from a sports psychology standpoint around breath helping.

To that and a detachment, a healthy detachment that's powerful.

And is there anything you think people should avoid in terms of.

Not dangerous practices but things that are just unhelpful from a mental standpoint when they're performing us manage our emotions.

In my line of work, breath does two things. Depending on how you're using it, it can calm you down. It could also get you excited, get you more, you know, you, to use the word aroused. It could increase your heart rate, it could increase, you know, the energy.

We talked about this a little bit too. But I think it's okay to have some self doubt.

One of the greatest lessons I learned from my mentor and coach, I was not feeling good about myself and she looked at me straight in the face and she said, so you don't think you're good enough? Join the club. Like so what?

And sometimes we need both. As a ski racer, I remember on the hot days, you know, every. I think there are all moments when we can have a little bit of self doubt. We can wonder if we've got what it takes. We wonder if today's the day, it's normal, it's just your thinking. And coming from a, you know, sport and performance psychology gal, I can tell you that we are not our thoughts. Sometimes we don't have to believe everything we think. It's just once you're sitting out there in the sun waiting and it's just getting hot and, and our coaches would teach us how to start breathing and then increase that rate. They'd also put ice down our backs but you know, increase, but like to get the energy going. So I believe in using your breath and your thinking and there's some like relief to that.

Yeah, there's like actually a bit of a liberation that comes from hearing that frees us. Just before we wrap up, I've got the fast five. So five questions, quick fire questions, bit of fun. First one. Are you a morning person or a night owl?

I'm a morning person. I think sometimes we think of it only as a calming technique, a resetting technique, not 5am Er, you know, 6.

And when you get up is that exercise, meditation, coffee, What Is it you do when you get up is two.

Glasses of water and lemon and a walk with my significant other every single morning. Non negotiable.

Beautiful.

Whether it's work or if I.

You know, when you're feeling anxious, go ahead and just take a deep breath. And I know, I know top performers know this in sports, but we have to remind ourselves. So wait a second. The breath is also to get us excited and, and to get us in our game and to get us physically in a state of optimal performance. Something after that. But those two things.

I love it. Love it. What one word to describe yourself.

I care. I really care.

Yeah. I can sense it. I can feel it every time I talk to you. And the way I see you carry yourself, how you treat others. You really care.

I love it. Biggest fear.

I also ask people to really focus on like the diaphragm, you know, so we, we know that it's just not shallow breathing. There's real purpose. And the last thing else.

Well, I have my biggest fear in sport that I'm engaging right now. And, and you know, if I think about that, it's mountain biking, actually. I'll tell you what my biggest fear is, which is why I started mountain biking. My biggest fear is being left behind. My biggest fear is saying no because I can't do something and not because I just don't want to do it. Say about breathing is it's amazing when I. I've mentioned it before when coaches tell their athletes to just relax and they can't because they're tense. Another thing that goes with that is, you know, just, I don't want to feel that I. That I'm going to be left behind because I can't do something.

And for somebody else that shares that, what's a piece of advice you would give them?

Don't be left behind. That's why I went mountain biking. It's a new sport that I picked up four years ago when I met my boyfriend. Breathe. Just breathe. Well, we're all breathing. You're alive. You're. You may be the first weekend he was going biking with my best girlfriend and her boyfriend, Javi. But you're breathing, so what do you mean? Breathe? Breathe intentionally. And I know James friend and I was left behind and never again. So I bought a bike and I figured out how to do it.

That's amazing. I love it. Get after it. Next one. Are you an introvert or an extrovert?

I mean, you always talk about doing things intentionally and so is it going to be nostril breathing? Is it going to be belly breathing? Is it Wim Hof breathing? Is it, you know, any, any type of breath?

If you're introvert and as I guess a subset of that question, like how do you take your introversion and get on a stage? Because you speak, you're an amazing keynote speaker. How do you use your introversion? Or is there a way that you can bring extroversion to the stage?

My mother always used to say I grew up as a dancer and a ski racer and I always was the star in the dance performances. But as soon as I get off the stage, I hide behind everybody. So I think I just. You're not doing any type of deep breathing. Any breath is going to help you. You know, an intentional choreographed deep breath from a mental perspective, it's a pattern interrupt. I think it's a performance and I love performing. That's my area of expertise when I can assign choreography. That's why I like nostril breathing or I like putting my hand on my belly and feeling my stomach expand. I like counting. I like having some type of body awareness performance. So I'm an introvert. But then when I get up on stage, I'm ready to have the performance of my life.

I love that. I can really relate. I love it. And last of the Fast 5, what would be your life motto?

Right, left, Right left. Right left. Sometimes I have dreams, sometimes I don't. But whether I have a long term dream or not in the moment, I need to always just keep moving. Right, left, right left. Right left, forward.

That's incredible. Such great advice. And Hilly, is there a book that you read in fairness?

Because if I'm engaging my mind in that type of thinking, not thinking about my past stressor, my current stressor or my future stressor. So it's a fabulous body regulator, physiological regulator, but it also does wonders to the mind.

Powerful think the last 10 years, 20 years around the mind. That was inspiring. That was engaged you. Thank you for sharing that. So just it got me thinking about nsdr, the non sleep, Deep breast. And I've just been kind of playing with Gene that you would recommend people lift. Of course I'm going to be recommending they buy your book right now. But if there was another book that inspired you, what would it be?

Love is Letting Go of Fear.

I really hope I got the title right.

I'll do a bit of research and we'll make sure the team puts the right link in there.

I love it. And Personal Podium is available globally. Amazon. Everyone can get their copy. I'm going to encourage them to come and visit you at your site. I'll put that in the show notes so they can check out your incredible masterclass at this last year and it's been fascinating actually just how much it can reset the nervous system. Last time I asked you the final question, I'm going to ask it again because we're a few years on now, life has changed and maybe your perspective on this question might have changed as well. So it's deeply breath focused but also it's very much about focusing on parts of the body and essentially counting as well. So I love that you describe that. Have you tried any NSDR with yourself or clients?

I have learned about it often. I think I listen to Andrew Huberman. He always talks about non rest deep sleep.

If we were to fast forward many years into the future and at this point you're highly aware it was your last day here on Earth, someone very young that you cared about deeply came into the room, said Hayley, how do I go about leading my life on purpose? What would you say to them?

Stay true to yourself.

It is a lesson that I continue to learn, being pulled in every direction, people having wonderful suggestions for you which are all great and I like to stay open minded, stay true to you. I've not used it with my athletes yet. I'm still learning about it. But again to me, yourself, so powerful.

Dr. Haley Perlis, thank you so much for joining me again today and I look forward to crossing paths again soon.

Thanks James.

The Lead on Purpose podcast is sponsored by NZ Mortgages. Learn more at nzmortgages.co uk nz.

You know, if we're all concerned about not getting enough deep sleep, you know, this is a way that we can do things can't really always we can control our sleep by the preparation of the sleep, but once we're sleeping we don't really get to control our deep sleep. I, you know, it's, it's, it's not a, I can't command myself once I'm sleeping to get into deep sleep. But while I am a lot while I'm awake I can intentionally put myself into, you know, the best, the best opportunity to achieve that non rest deep sleep. So I love the idea and I like how it's, I think it's helping people get their heads around the concept definitely 100%.

And one thing I was going to ask you just before we move towards wrapping up was act so acceptance and commitment therapy. Is that something that shows up in your practice at all.

Yes, but in a different way.

Acceptance and commitment in sports and performance, it's an interesting thing. The level of commitment must be high. I mean, the sacrifices and the commitment to the goal. And in the moment that goal means absolutely everything and nothing else matters. And in the big scheme of things, we need to also be detached from it and we need to accept that it's not the most important thing, even though you're supposed to address it as if it is.

So that's how I look at when it comes to acceptance and commitment.

I too think that when we can figure out how to grasp that concept. And I think Roger Federer, we started with tennis, maybe we continue with tennis. But in his commencement speech this year or into in 2024, he talked about this. In the moment, that point is the only thing that matters. And then win or lose, the point no longer matters. And it's accepting that and moving on to the next point. Because now that point is the only thing that matters. And then win or lose, you know, there's, there's an acceptance piece to, to that and a detachment, a healthy detachment that's powerful.

And is there anything you think people should avoid in terms of not dangerous practices, but things that are just unhelpful from a mental standpoint when they're performing?

We talked about this a little bit too, but I think it's okay to have some self doubt.

One of the greatest lessons I learned from my mentor and coach. I was not feeling good about myself and she looked at me straight in the face and she said, so you don't think you're good enough? Join the club, like, so what?

And I think there are all moments when we can have a little bit of self doubt. We can wonder if we've got what it takes. We wonder if today's the day, it's normal, it's just your thinking. And coming from a sport and performance psychology galaxy, I can tell you that we are not our thoughts. Sometimes we don't have to believe everything we think. It's just your thinking.

And there's some relief to that.

Yeah, there's actually a bit of liberation that comes from hearing that frees us. Just before we wrap up, I've got the fast five. So five questions, quick fire questions, bit of fun. First one. Are you a morning person or a night owl?

I'm a morning person, not a 5am Er, you know, 6.

And when you get up, is that exercise, meditation, coffee? What is it you do when you get up?

It's two glasses of water and lemon and a walk. With my significant other every single morning. Non negotiable.

Beautiful. That's grinding.

Whether it's work or if I something after that. But those two things.

Love it. Love it. One word to describe yourself.

I care. I really care.

Yeah, I can sense it. I can feel it every time I talk to you. And the way I see you carry yourself, how you treat others. You really care. I love it. Biggest fear. Biggest.

Well, I have my biggest fear in sport that I'm engaging right now. And. And you know, if I think about that, it's mountain biking. Actually. I'll tell you what my biggest fear is, which is why I started mountain biking. My biggest fear is being left behind. My biggest fear is saying no because I can't do something and not because I just don't want to do it. I don't want to feel that I. That I'm going to be left behind because I can't do something.

And for somebody else that shares that, what's a piece of advice you would give them?

Don't be left behind. That's why I went mountain biking. It's a new sport that I picked up four years ago when I met my boyfriend. And the first weekend he was going biking with my best girlfriend and her boyfriend and I was left behind and never again. So I bought a bike and I figured out how to do it.

That's amazing. I love it. Get after it. Next one. Are you an introvert or an extrovert? I'm an introvert and I guess a subset of that question. How do you take your introversion and get on a stage? Because you speak. You're an amazing keynote speaker. How do you use your introversion? Or is there a way that you can bring extroversion to the stage?

My mother always used to say, I grew up as a dancer and a ski racer and I always was the star in the dance performances. But as soon as I get off the stage, I hide behind everybody. So I think, I just think it's a performance and I love performing. That's my area of expertise, performance. So I'm an introvert. But then when I get up on stage, I'm ready to have the performance of.