Empowering your Team with Ali Adams

So, no, I'm very humbled to be here and looking forward to having a chat and hopefully sharing a few insights. And if, look, if one thing I say resonates, then that's a success for me. Hopefully there'll be a few things in there that make sense and feel like the right bit of insight at the right time for you on your journeys.

Fantastic. Well, let's have a bit of fun. So I guess a great place to start is this. So when you think of leadership, what comes to mind for you when you think of that term, leadership?

So I think.

It'S a huge word and it's a huge responsibility being a leader. And it's something that doesn't sit comfortably when you first start out. For many of us on our leadership journey, it's something you have to learn to live with. It's a bit like a coat you try on and kind of spend a bit of time with. And for me, the biggest shift in leadership was when I move from. If you think on your leadership journey, very often you're a doer. When you first start work and then your first leadership role, you might lead one or two people that do the same job as you, and it's pretty comfortable because you know what they do. And then maybe you lead a bigger team of people that do the stuff that you used to do and you're still reasonably comfortable because they're still doing the stuff that you do. The big shift as a leader for me is when you lead leaders and all of a sudden you're leading people who do things that you don't know what they do. So, and for me, that's where you really start to define what leadership is. And I would define it in its rawest sense as really clear context, really clear light on the hill, giving that vision and that goal so that everybody can see the direction that you're pulling in some really clear guardrails and then letting people go. It's all about empowering people to be the best that they can be. And actually, if I think of.

Probably the biggest superpower I think I have, I don't know if people here may have done strength finders. Many of you will have done the Clifton strength finders if you haven't. It's a great tool, bit of fun. My number one strength finder is individualization. And another way that I would explain that is it's very much about believing the highest thoughts of people and enabling them to achieve their way. Getting people to be able to deliver the best that they can be is What I think a truly great leader does, and it's not easy. You have to actually really invest a lot of time and effort in order to make that happen. It's quite draining. Being a leader is a lot of energy.

Fascinating. And I want to look at your leadership journey because someone once said to me, hey, James, do you believe that leaders are born? I'm like, well, I'm yet to meet an unborn leader. Everyone has to be born. You know what I mean? So I believe it's a skill that we can develop. Some people have a bent and inclination towards leadership and influence with others. What about your leadership? Where did you start developing those leadership traits?

Oh, that's a great question.

I look at my leadership style now versus my leadership style in my 20s and it is just chalk and cheese. I am a very different leader and you have to kind of grow into the different leadership roles that you have. I tried very hard on my leadership journey. You know, like in a career, everything has a bell curve, doesn't it? Sorry, the scientists in me can't resist it, but everything has a bell curve. When you first start a job, you're in that kind of drinking from the fire hose bit and then you get to that bit where it starts to flatten off and you can do it before you start to slip into apathy and then ultimately cynicism, which is when you should be absolutely leaving that role. I try and stay on that upward bit and then you're constantly growing. So that growth is such an important thing for me when I'm looking for a role and I look at the way that my leadership has developed, I think several things have happened during that time. To me, I think the first is it hasn't happened by accident. So what you're all doing here today is so important and it's so easy not to invest in yourself as a leader. But actually the time that I have spent on courses like this and I've been very fortunate. I've had a lot of fantastic personal development. Investment through my career has been the best time I've ever spent. Because you cannot be a good leader if you don't know yourself. Your starting point has you've got to know what your strengths and your weaknesses are. And every strength has a shadow side and you've got to understand how to dial those up and down in different situations. And that starts with self awareness and it starts with investing in yourself. So it's not happened by accident. I think the other thing that I think is really interesting is a growth in confidence. It's taken. I've said to James before, I'm 51, depressing but true. And only I would say in the last three or four years have I been comfortable issuing the phrase I am a leader. I am a good leader. I can even say that now. And it's taken me a very long time to get. I have that classic imposter syndrome that many of us have. But actually, you know what? I'm quite good at this and it's really good to have that confidence. It's not complacency but a confidence that you can do. This is a really good place to start as a leader. So that's probably been the two big insights from my journey so far.

Thank you for sharing that. Not everyone can admit that imposter syndrome is something that they've experienced. But I would say the greatest leaders, when you get talking to them intimately. Yeah, I didn't think I could do that job and I struggled to think I could be the person that could step into it. What was the transition for you going? I'm not sure I can lead. I'm not sure I am a great leader too. No, no, I know who I am, I know what I stand for and I'm a good leader. What happened there?

So it probably happened I had a bit of a kind of a leadership crisis which I think many of us have. I used to work for the museum, Trade and Enterprise, central government, fantastic organization and wonderful leaders and invested very heavily in me as a leader and I made the mistake of setting my heart on a job a long way out. So New Zealand Trade and Enterprise has these cycles of jobs and I wanted to be the head of the European region. I'd set my goal on this and I kind of got over invested and it's a really dangerous thing to do. And.

It was a very traumatic interview process that I went through and I started to really doubt myself. I started to doubt that I was the right person for it. I started to doubt that I was going to get it and I stopped being my authentic self. And that process was quite transformative for me. I happened to finish that process knowing I'd got the job after a very painful, long interview process, it's kind of quite broken. And then I went on a course similar to this. So NZTE ran a course called Leaders for Impact where we went and spent four days in the wilderness, really just investing in ourselves. And that to me, all of a sudden I was like, actually, you know what, they've picked me for this job and I have got this job, and now I'm going to prove that I can do it was a bit like a switch went on. There was a confidence in me. I realized that a lot of the trauma that I'd gone through during this horrendous interview process, well, nearly all of it was of my own making. And that's quite liberating because when it's your own making, you can change it. One of my favorite leadership insights is that you are your habits. So anyone that likes sports here? I'm a big NBA fan, and there's a guy called Jeff Van Gundy. He used to coach the U.S. basketball team. And I was watching a game one day and he talked about how you are your habits. I used to bite my nails, and I'm so proud. I just have to do this. I'm still kind of ridiculously proud of my nails because I've controlled it. I remember one day being in. I was in Hamburg, having got this job in Europe, and I got in the shower one morning and classic old imposter syndrome hadn't quite gone away at this point. Still hasn't gone away. Will never go away. But I was in the shower listing the top 10 things I hated about myself. Classic way to start the day. Always good. What do I hate about myself? God, I wish I wasn't so fat. And I wish I got up earlier. And I wish I was a bit fitter. I wish I didn't bite my nails. And honestly, I got to about number six and then realized A, that this was not a great habit, which is good that I noticed it, but B, that actually they were pretty much all in my control. And that's quite a liberating thing as a leader. And all of a sudden when I realized that, I was like, actually, I think I probably can do this. So, yeah, that was probably a long answer to your question.

That's incredible.

But I managed to get my nails in.

They look beautiful.

Thank you.

I love it. And now that you're leading leaders, so you've overcome this imposter syndrome, which arguably. Ish. I think everyone will always have a level of that. You know, you look at the top five regrets of the dying. So it was Bronnie Ware who wrote this book. She's a palliative care nurse. And the number one regret of people on their deathbed is I regret living my life based upon what other people think about how I'm living my life. And imposter syndrome really ties into that. So now that you're leading leaders, you've overcome that You've learned how to compartmentalize that, manage it. How do you empower others who are in the earlier stages of their leadership careers who are almost crippled by that imposter syndrome? How do you lead them and empower them to think the way you think?

Well, I don't necessarily want them to think the way I think. I want them to think the way that they think. But I do want them to.

Do it with confidence. And I think I have. I'm an extrovert, I like to talk, I have an answer to everything, according to my husband. So he told me.

But I've really learned to coach. And coaching is if you can get one skill as a leader, learn to coach, learn to ask fabulous open ended questions and link it with this second skill, which to me is trust your instincts. Now if you can encourage people to trust their instincts and you can coach them, then that is a very powerful combination. So I would say that good leaders have good instincts nearly always. You know, we all have our spidey senses when you're recruiting someone and yeah, they've ticked every box on paper and you know, they could do the job, but actually it's just something, don't ignore that ever. So you'll be right. And you know what, if you're thinking it, someone else is thinking it. So what I always say to my team is, what's your gut telling you? What is your gut telling you? And I will always say, and what could you do about that? How have you know, tell me how that went. Tell me a little bit about that meeting. So what are your thoughts? You know, and by doing people have all got the answers within. So and the more that they come up with their own solutions, the more their confidence grows. And then you start to see that imposter syndrome start to drift away a little bit in parallel. As a leader, don't ignore the power of positive feedback. When someone does something great, let them know they've done something great. Because you know, just like parenting and there are so many, in fact, actually I would say 90% of my leadership kind of insights come either from Ted Lasso, which if you haven't watched, watch. It's great. So all from being a parent because there's a lot of parallels. And if you say something positive to one of your children, they're going to do that again. And you know what, that's true with people. We're really simple. We want to do a good job and if someone says you've done a great job, you're going to do it. Again and then you start to trust yourself and that confidence will grow.

What's the opposite of that? So as a leader, if you're not taking a coaching approach where you're really eliciting information and being curious, what does that look like and what have your experiences been of not being coached, but the opposite of that.

So one of the most difficult periods in my career was towards the end of my time. I'm going to be really honest here, by the way, please don't share anything. I will never be described as enigmatic, much to my disappointment. So what you see is what you get. So I'm going to tell you all my kind of dirty secrets here. I've just remembered on a podcast, maybe I should be a bit careful.

We can tick that bit off.

One of my most difficult times was towards the end of my time at nzte. I had my boss left and was replaced by someone who was a micromanager. Now that's, to me, that's really hard because the most important thing for me is to feel trusted. I need to feel that people trust me. I need to feel that they think I've got it. And I find it very difficult when I'm micromanaged or over questioned. And so to me that's what it looks like and that's what, you know, that, that really telling someone what they should do, that double checking.

Asking mom, all of that stuff is the total opposite. And that's just going to lead to imposter syndrome because people lose their confidence. When I started at Christchurch nz, there was a lot of people who had become quite unconfident in their decision making. And I describe a couple of them, a bit like hermit crabs. It's a bit like you can actually see that kind of like they put a claw out and kind of go, no one chop that off, maybe I'll put another one out. It's kind of actually quite exciting to watch that unfurling.

And often, you know, in your career you'll come into a role where you're taking over from a leader that's had a really different style to you. And it doesn't mean it's wrong, it's just a different style to you and that, you know, your team need to come with you on that journey.

And in terms of leadership style, so we've got all these terms, affiliative, democratic, autocratic. When you think of a style, do you have a style that you lean to or do you feel it's more.

Situational leadership in a bit of both. I love Situational leadership.

I'm trying to think of things that I can say that are okay on a podcast.

I do do quite a lot of situational leadership and I've learned this the hard way. So I'm going to. I worked with someone who was quite an. I don't know if I can use the word alpha male. The phrase, of course you can go for it. Quite an alpha male. And my leadership style tends to be quite vulnerable, open, really happy to say when I've made a mistake. Really comfortable kind of owning it. You know, I'm not, not kind of trying to prove anything. I found that with this particular person and actually often with alpha males that doesn't work. It's seen as a bit of a weakness. And so I have adapted my style. And it was funny the other day a guy came into our office for a meeting and he's classic alpha male. And one of my team sat with me and she came out of the meeting afterwards and said, who the hell were you? And I was kind of like, yeah, it was very, very deliberate that I dialed up certain aspects of my leadership style with that person because actually that's how you need to get the credibility and respect there. Or that's how I judged it. That comes back to trusting your instincts, actually. You know, like your instincts tell you what the right thing to do is. So just don't ignore them. Often think of it like a quiver of arrows. I don't know if I often have this kind of visual in my quiver of arrows and I think which one I'm going to pull out. Actually I know I'm going to pull out that one.

And it's kind of great. You know, actually it's really helpful with the imposter syndrome thing.

I love that. And often we can be boxed in in terms of, oh, you're a democratic leader, you're affiliative. It's nice to know that actually successful leadership can be situational and we can move as required. Yeah, I think Covid of anything has taught us that we need to be flexible.

Yeah.

Now Christchurch nz, let's chat a little bit about that. So I guess first you know, what is Christchurch nz? And then we'll unpack. When you walked in as a new leader to an existing company, what were your greatest challenges? So what is Christchurch nz?

So Christchurch NZ is fully council owned. So we're a council controlled entity and we are the economic development agency for Christchurch. So in short, we attract people to Christchurch to make it a more prosperous place for people that live here. We bring wealth into the city and that might be by attracting visitors, it might be by attracting businesses, investors, immigrants and workers. Major events, business events. We do a whole heap of stuff, but essentially we're attracting wealth to the city for the benefit of all.

What were my biggest challenges?

Quite a few. One was, so Christchurch NZ is one of those organizations, a bit like nzte, where it's very purpose driven, it's cause driven. So our salaries are disappointingly not enormous because we're a ratepayer funded organization. And so most people that come there come there for other reasons. They come there because they care about giving back, they care about the cause. Now that's a fantastic thing as a leader, because you've got the opposite of apathy. There's nothing worse as a leader than coming into an organization where people really don't care. What's that horrible word that I heard where people turn off at work? I can't remember. It's a new buzzword anyway, where people literally. Yeah, that's right, yeah.

So I had this amazing group of people who really cared. The downside of that is they say yes to everything. And so we were an inch thick and a mile wide and we still do say yes to too many things. And we'd become that agency at council where. Oh, they'll do that, they'll do that. Yeah. So we would really not delivering as well as I would like. So I was very keen to, I called it tidying up our blurry edges. So being really clear about what we do and what we don't do and about empowering the people in my team to say no and making it safe for them to say no. So because we have some really strong stakeholders and one of the things I've learned in my transition from central government to local government is central government is actually quite unified. So you get really one voice in local government, that kind of parochialism. And you go to present to the councils and people are very. Each councillor is very passionate about what's going on in their ward. And so, you know, for example, if we're talking about doing some urban development, you know, why aren't you doing something in Phillipstown? Why aren't you doing something in Rickerton? Why aren't you doing. It's like, actually we've got $18 million, it's a lot for urban development. So you've actually got to manage those nos and you've got to enable your team to say no in a way that is acceptable to your stakeholders without losing them along the way. So that was probably the biggest challenge. I think the second challenge I had was my leadership team needed to focus on the right things. My leadership team was very much in the weeds.

Very focused on dealing with operational things. And.

It'S quite important that we stepped up a level to create that space for the people below to be able to feel like they're experts and also for us to think about the direction of travel of the organization. It very much felt like a leadership team where people came in with their functional hat on and so very much getting people to take that hat off and think about actually what's the best. They were probably the two biggest challenges we faced.

That's huge. So boundaries, like enforcing those boundaries, but also being able to sit and detach from everything in the weeds, as you said. So I know there's so many other leaders in the room right now that are busy being busy and keeping things moving. There's been so much challenge during COVID Now post Covid, the economy doing what it's doing. So how does one, while there's busyness happening, actually take a team and go, hey, let's breathe, let's sit up here and let's look at it whilst things are still being maintained here, how did you manage to achieve that?

So I think the first thing was leading by example. I say I don't need to see that. Why are you showing me that? Stop. I don't need to see every media release that goes out. I don't need to see every walled paper. Why is that wallpaper from you rather than the subject matter expert? So actually just leading by example was a very big part of it. And then leaning into a couple of quick wins. So we had an event that we had for a long time. It was a major event that someone had said they wanted to host here in Christchurch. And.

Because we're cause driven and we're nice, we'd said, oh, we'll try, we'll try, we'll try. And we'd done a bit of a feasibility study that had showed us that this thing was going to cost us a fortune, it was going to be really an enormous amount of money and was clearly never going to happen. But we hadn't really said no. And so we managed all our stakeholders, we told everyone we're going to say no and why before we did it. And we checked everyone that had kind of been brought on this journey with us and then we wrote our letter saying no and it went down fine. And all of a sudden everyone kind of went, oh, oh, that's okay. We said no, and that worked and that started to lift it. I think the other thing that we did was.

I think leadership teams are often seen as a bit of an ivory tower and people don't know what you're discussing and doing in there. And that can kind of cause some sort of cultural challenges. So we were very transparent. So we invited. Every quarter, I invite someone from the team to come and sit on our leadership team and they just become a full member of our leadership team every quarter. And it rotates and we choose people that are. We have. I've introduced a talent matrix so that we can start to look at our talent from within. We can start to make sure that our performance development is really tailored to where individual people are. And that kind of started to remove some of the.

The gossip about what we were and weren't discussing, some of that frustration. And when the culture starts to shift, I mean, it's such a cliche that culture eats strategy for breakfast, but it really, really is true. You've got to get that culture shifting. You've got to get people to really believe that they are valued and that the work they do is heading in the right direction. And then you can start to really shift it. But leading by example probably is the biggest thing that we do.

It's amazing. And I hear it's a shift from me to we and it's us versus them to it's us. We're in this together. So in terms of a sense of belonging, so I really think any team, whether it's a sports team or a company organization, their success or their winning or achieving results is directly in correlation to everyone's personal meaning that's attached to being a part of that team. Their sense of belonging to. At Christchurch NZ or even in another area that you've worked and led. How do you create that sense of belonging for your people?

We spend a lot of time at work, right? This guy called Wayne Norrie, good guy, he drew a really terrifying graph a few years ago. And as I said, I'm 51, so I'm at the wrong end of this. He drew a graph where it was like 24 hours and 90 years. And then he drew a line. Well, that's all gone. And then he drew the amount that you're asleep and then the bits that you're retired and potentially not able to move much. And there's this tiny little box in the middle that's left of your life, and most of it you're at work. And it was quite a moment for me. I was like, actually you've got to love what you do. You have got to enjoy work. Nobody, you know, you've got to enjoy it. And so you've got to have a bit of fun. I think that's really important. And people are human, people do business with people. So when I first joined Christchurch nz, I wanted to know who I work with. And we have about 95 employees. I've had a one on one with every single person and it's really funny, they all turn up with a book to make notes. So. And I'm just like, I'm just going to ask you whether you've got any chickens and what you like to do on a Saturday. And so it's like, and it's great, you know, because I actually care, I want to know who they are. And I've finished those one on ones now and I'm just starting again because they're so energizing for me as an extrovert. They're gold. So I'm just going to, we're just going to go round and round and round and people really feel heard. And the moment you've got that, people actually, they're like, actually she cares about me. You know, it takes me 25 minutes to get a coffee because I stop at every desk on the way to the office. And I'm sure Hannah works in our office. She'll probably. I'm very loud, you know, when I'm in the office. Now I'm not saying that's the only type of leadership style, but actually being a visible leader and being human is so important in getting people to love what they do and enjoy coming to work. You know, I know that my team are proud of me and I know that they're proud to work for Christchurch nz. And part of that is because I'm one of them, you know, I represent them and that's really important. I think you can't underestimate the power of being a visible human leader.

And I think when you talk to leaders and they talk about this lonely at the top thing, so a lot of leaders will come and say, James, actually quite lonely at the top. Well, the more I've thought about that is if you're feeling lonely, then jump off that big high chair you're sitting on, get out of your corner office, get amongst your people, rub shoulders, get to know them. And so it sounds like that's exactly really what you're doing, is you're getting amongst your people.

Exactly. And it's energizing for you as a leader. Honestly, I get such a kick of whack. I don't even know who we're doing that. We have a staff meeting every couple of weeks and it runs itself, the staff. I don't drive that agenda. Things come up at that meeting and I just sit there going, whoa, that's so cool. We've got such cool people. And that's the. You don't need to know what's going on, you just need to enable it to happen.

And that to me is it's a win win.

Yeah, absolutely. And I would say one of the biggest topics that comes up at the minute is this whole great resignation. Why are people leaving? Why can we not keep talent? There's such churn people are leaving for money. What do you believe about culture and retaining good staff? How do we keep great staff?

Well, I think the first answer is you can't always. And that's okay.

I have come to terms with that the hard way. It's hard. You can't always keep everyone you want to and you can't always get everyone that you want to when you're recruiting. And that's okay.

How can you keep them? I think you can make people feel really valued and really heard and really invested in. So at nzt, Pete Crisp was my ce. NZT is a great guy, fantastic leader, and he always used to say, look, we can't pay you the big bucks, but we can guarantee that you'll leave this organization with a better CV than you came into it with. And I have that in my mind. That's a gift that I can give to everyone that works for me or for us at Christchurch nz.

And it's a question of trying to make sure that you really tailor that personal development to what they need. So if I come back to the talent, the talent management, if you haven't got one of these, to me it's the best tool. I have a little nine box matrix, the old nine box matrix, which basically has potential on one side and performance along the other. So you can google them, there's plenty of them. You star and you're ready for promotion in here and you've got your underperformers, you don't want anyone in there, or if you do, you need to move them up or out, but then you've got people elsewhere. Now if you're down in the bottom right, where you are a very high performer, but you're not ready for, you don't want to move. We've all got these in our organization. They're really important, they're people that have been there 25 years doing the same job and they love it and they do a really great job. It doesn't mean they don't want to grab. It doesn't mean they don't deserve to be invested in. It's just different. So what can you do to invest in people like that, to make sure that you retain them and that they feel valued and that they feel like you care? And so these models are really, for me, really useful because they give you really practical ways of being able to think about. Maybe it's a secondment, maybe it's actually what are the things that that person might be looking. They're going to mentor someone within the organization or learn a language or whatever it might be that floats their boat because that's actually what really what. We all just want to feel like we're contributing and that we're valued again.

When you look at the human needs psychology, you want to feel valued, you want to feel connected.

Yeah.

Some degree of certainty around your place in whether it's an organization or in your family. And I guess because you spend so much time with your staff, one to one, you actually do know their needs, more so than imagining what they want. You're in amongst the asking them those questions, questions about their aspirations, professionally and personally.

Yeah. And I think, here's another for me, I think something that I've learned about myself, something I did quite naturally, but I had a wonderful coach when I was in the UK.

And she unlocked this insight for me, which is about the power of alchemy as a leader. So I'm a chemist by background and it's very typical in England that you do a degree in something that's got nothing to do with business and then end up in business. So I did a degree in inorganic chemistry and there's a little bit of me that's still a bit of a tragic scientist.

And I honestly think, very deliberately as a leader, about the alchemy of putting people together. So when I was in Europe, I had a particular leader in Southern Europe who was not particularly getting on with one of my leaders in Northern Europe. It was just they were always clashing at leadership meetings. There was a bit of tension, bit of conflict there. Now conflict excites me because conflict is innovation. Right. We're all agreeing with each other, nothing's changing. So I'm like, oh, that's interesting. There's something interesting there. What would happen if I put them on a project together? So I very deliberately gave them a project together, knowing that it would probably blow up, which it did, obviously, and then that you pick the pieces up and help them manage through that conflict. And honestly, the magic that happens when you do that is incredible. So that kind of very deliberate alchemy as a leader, I think, is quite a powerful tool. So if you always be looking and watching and noticing and think a little bit of them, with a little bit of them on a little bit of that project, what would happen there? And it won't always work, but it's quite fun to be experimental, I think sounds a bit like Machiavellian. And Dylan's like.

I think there's a lot of people that could relate to that. And you talked a little bit about micromanaging. None of us like to be micromanaged, let's face it. So if you're new and you're walking into an organization and you're not the leader and you don't want to be micromanaged, what has to happen for you to have that level of trust from your leader? So you're not micromanaged. What are the ingredients that have got to be put together before you can work independently and autonomously?

I will have a crack at answering them. My instinct is to say, what do you all think? So, because actually, that is exactly the kind of question I would say to my team. If you want that trust, how are you going to get there? What have you tried? What's worked? What hasn't? So, actually, you will all have the answer to that question within. What I would do, absolutely, is I would prove by being able to deliver. And then if I felt that the boundaries were being crossed, I would very openly and honestly share how I was feeling. There's a man called Edgar Papke. I don't read business books ever, but I have kind of skimmed this one. It's called the Elephant in the Boardroom. And Edgar Papke is a wonderful man, and he talks about conflict quite a lot. And he talks about conflict being basically just where there's a difference of opinion or a miscommunication. And this is a really great tool, particularly when you're talking up. So if you're going to your boss to raise something that's not quite working for you, and what he talks about is the power of actually just saying what your intention is. So you start by saying, hey, look, my intention is for us to work really well together and for me to be able to deliver so well that you don't feel that you need to get involved, whatever it might be, you make it Very safe for that person to have the conversation. And then you share your truth. And this is the key. You use language. So I'm probably teaching you all to suck heads, but you use language like, I feel when you do this, I feel when you do that, it makes me think. Or, you know, you don't pass it. You don't say you're really a micromanager or, you know, you're really. You attack me when you do that. It just makes me feel a bit like you don't trust me or a bit, you know, use your truth because it's actually something they can't argue with. If you're feeling that, then it's true. And then this is the hard bit. You then say, what's the truth for you? And that's where you actually hear some things you might not. Like your manager might say to you. Actually, it's because you had 25 spelling mistakes, or you always do this or you always do that. And you might hear some things that actually start to help you understand why they're not trusting you to do this. But that's when the magic happens, because then, you know, then you could start to move forward. So that's what I would do. But everyone will have their own answer to that.

Thank you for sharing it. And I absolutely agree in that when someone says, I feel we have no right to challenge how someone feels, but what we can do is behind the feeling is a thought. And we can challenge people's thoughts and we can engage and converse around what thinking is driving that feeling.

That's right. Yeah. And be curious to do that. I think, to me, it's a very liberating tool, the Edgar Papke model. And it's really simple, but it just, it diffuses tension into a conversation because 99.9% of the time it's just a miscommunication.

100%. And for you personally, what has been your greatest leadership challenge over the last few years?

Oh, look, there's lots of them. And I love that. I love that there's lots. So I'm not going to say Covid. Actually, I think probably my most difficult challenge was I closed an office and I closed. So when I went to Europe, I was based in Hamburg, in the consulate there, and we had a team of 12. And it was an underperforming team and I knew it was an underperforming team and I knew that people had avoided looking at the fact that this team wasn't delivering and it wasn't that the people hadn't Been great because they probably had been. They just kind of, perhaps the organization had moved forward at a pace that this team hadn't. And so I decided that the best thing was to close that office and to move a smaller team up to Berlin. And it had a big impact on a lot of people's lives. It's very challenging if you're a people driven, heart driven kind of leader. And I remember very clearly a moment where after we'd done it, so we planned it very carefully, there was an awful lot of background went into it and I'm very, very proud of it. It actually is something that went very well. But I do remember that moment where you talked about the loneliness of being a leader. It was the Wednesday, the week after. We'd had the conversation the week before and it was the week after. And I was in the office and I was in the office a bit late and people kept coming past my desk saying, oh, you know, I'm going home now, I'm off to have dinner with a friend. Then someone else had come, I'm off to the supermarket. And they must have all been going, is she ever going to leave? And I didn't know that. So they were all kind of fine. Mostly they've all gone. I jump in the car, my husband picks me up, we drive around the corner and there's my entire team at the pub.

And it's a very confronting thing as a leader. My kids said, oh, mum, that's your team. And I was like, yep, yep. And you gotta keep going, right? That's a big grown up moment. That's your big girl's pants are on that day. Cause you know that they're all going, what a bitch. Because you are to them. And that's okay. We've all had those people in our lives. But actually that was probably pivotal but very important. And you know, you asked me what the toughest leadership challenge is. They're the best. No pressure, no diamonds. So you think about job interviews that you go for. You don't talk about all the stuff that went easily. You talk about the great stuff that went wrong. And even if it's going wrong, you kind of go, oh, this is going to be a good dinner party story. You know, gobble them up, they're great. Collect them. They're the things that are going to make you the leader that you are. You know, if it all goes really well, then you're not growing.

I love that. And let's just take a moment before we pass it over to Q and A. I'M going to pass it over for a little bit. If anybody wants to ask any questions, we'll bring a mic out. But to be such a high performing leader and to have the ups and downs and the roller coaster that is working as a leader, how have you managed to balance the family side of things?

You should probably ask my husband that and he would probably say I haven't.

I know myself quite well and I think that's quite important. I know my triggers, I know when I am burning out and I'm quite good at stopping and taking the time I need to recover. I don't manage my hours, I manage my energy and I'm very, you know that for me that works. So I do work long hours and that's difficult, but I try and gobble little bits wherever I can. Have my nails done at three in the afternoon and not feel guilty about it, you know, because I know that I'll work till 10 o', clock, three days that week. What else do I do?

I'm very fortunate. I have an amazing husband who runs the family for us as a team and that's amazing. I'm very lucky to have that. I don't think I could have done that without him to be able to do that. And I try and make the most of the downtime. I've. I know what is my good mindful downtime. I have some terrible guilty pleasures. I love Love Island.

Great.

So I love true crime podcasts. I like to walk a lot and garden and I kind of just try and, you know, give my, my brain is either on or off. That's me. Everyone's different but for me it's either fully on or I'm lying on the couch like a cabbage.

I love it. That's great. And look, before we do hand it over. Q and A. If we were to fast forward to the end of your life many, many years into the future. I hope we all hope. And a loved one in your family or a close friend who's very young, they could be five or six years old and they come up to you and they say, ali, how can I lead my life on purpose? What would your wisdom or insights be for them?

It's a really good question. And when we did the NZTE the four days away, we were asked to visualize our 80th birthday and do the same. It's a very, very, very powerful exercise. What would I say? I would say.

Be kind to yourself. Don't.

Accept what you're great at, but know that it has a shadow side.

So it's that scale. I'm explaining this very poorly, but there's something about learning to love yourself and the things that you're great. I don't try and change them. You know, I am a loud, noisy pain in the ass. That's okay. You know, it's like, I'm okay with that. For lots of people it works, and lots of the time it's fine, and other times it doesn't. And that's good for me to be aware of, and I want to be aware of it, and I want to be able to tone it down at times that I need to, but I don't want to change that. And there's an acceptance of who you are and the fact that your style is your style. Don't try and change it. Try and leverage your strengths and minimize those weaknesses. That would be probably my biggest piece of advice. Love yourself a bit.

I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that. Let's put our hands together for Ali Adams. Thank you.

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