From Building Empires to Raising Kids: The Truth About Leadership and Life with Scott Miller

Boring.

That would drive me crazy doing the same thing every day of the week.

Franklin Covey and you helped grow that to an absolute mammoth of a business.

If you look at all the influential thought leaders that have built companies, they've all done it very similarly.

The book, arguably one of the best selling books of all time, 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, right, sold 60.

Million copies and transformed hundreds of millions of lives.

You have overcome one of human's greatest fears. How on earth did you do that?

People tell me all the time, Scott, you slur your words. Well, no shit, I have a stutter because when you go to YouTube you'll wonder how I even am alive. Because it's all about how incompetent I am.

What does parenthood mean to you?

Horror, Stress, Pain, Drama, Trauma, Nightmare fatigue. I believe that great people can love their children and still intensely dislike parenting.

Have you heard of Seven Habits of Highly Effective People? That book has sold millions of copies. Stephen Covey, or Stephen Covey as some of you might call him, was famous for helping people think differently and reach their potential. Now his company merged with the Franklin Journal Company to create Franklin Covey. It's now a publicly listed company, valuation recently at half a billion. Today I sit down with Scott Jeffrey Miller, who for over two decades has been part of Franklin Covey and has helped it to grow to the heights that it is at today. We're going to learn a lot about personal development, how he thinks. He's also a prolific author himself and a best selling author that is. We're going to learn a lot from him around how we apply those things to our lives, our businesses and even as parents, you're in for an absolute treat. Scott brings the energy today, so please sit back and enjoy the show. The Lead on Purpose podcast is sponsored by NZ Mortgages. Learn more at NZMortgages Co NZ. Scott, a huge welcome to the Lead on Purpose podcast.

James, I am honored. Thank you for the platform and the spotlight. Looking forward to this conversation.

I've been looking forward to this one for a while. I've been following you, your journey, your work, and you're such an inspiration and you do it with massive humility and humor, the two important H's in life.

Said to me by no one ever. But I'm delighted that you finally have seen the humility that exudes from my leadership style. Leave it to James to be the one person who uncovered it finally.

I love it. Now let's. Let's start with this. So anyone who is interested in personal development, self Growth, leadership. They will know of a guy called Stephen Covey, and most of us have read some of his work, I imagine, and if the person listening or watching hasn't, please go and do that. But you got very close and intimate with, with Covey, in fact, Franklin Covey, and you helped grow that to an absolute mammoth of a business. So tell me a little bit more what got you in the door and then what happened once you were in there.

So I'm originally from Florida in the US I live in Utah now, Salt Lake City. But I was working for the Walt Disney Company for four years and then they invited me to leave, which was basically, I got fired. And so I had a couple of colleagues, believe it or not, James, that had worked at Disney with me, they were mentors and took a liking to me. They actually were working then for the Covey Leadership center that became the Franklin Covey Company. They introduced me to the company, the company recruited me and I moved out to Utah, gosh, 30 years ago. I mean, I was a single Catholic boy from Orlando, Florida, moving to Provo, Utah, where there were two Catholics, the state priest and me. This is sort of Mormon territory here, right? Lovely people. And, and so it was through my network, my reputation. I was in my 20s. I joined what was now, is now the world's most trusted leadership company. Spent 25 years living in London, Chicago, Salt Lake, was the chief marketing officer for about 10 years. I left in good terms about five years ago. And I am still an ambassador for the firm. I host two podcasts for them. I counsel and coach the CEO on the thought leadership industry through my own agency. Is probably what I am most proud of, that you don't hear a lot of executive officers of global public companies that leave but stay for five years as a consultant. And I'm very proud of the relationships that are still very firm. They're big champion of Stephen Covey, of the work they do around the world. A magnet for quality people.

Thank you for sharing that. It's just, it's incredible that you are still there five years later consulting and supporting and you know, right. Most people kind of burn a bridge or at least tarnish it on the way out. And so it's incredible, it says a lot about your connection, how you obviously add value to that company. Still. Now, the book, arguably one of the best selling books of all time, seven Habits of Highly Effective People, I see that as a game changer. I see it as part of obviously a business model for Franklin Covey.

Is it the main thing is it the main course at Franklin Covey, or is it more of like the tip of the spear?

It's the main course. I mean, Franklin Covey is a large leadership firm, right. They have, I don't know, 25, 30 different personal development solutions, the speed of trust, the four disciplines of execution, the six critical practices for leading a team. But the seven habits is one of the most seminal books of our lifetime, right? Sold 60 million copies and transformed hundreds of millions of lives through professional development programs and companies and organizations. And so it is the main thing. It probably represents about 40% of the company's revenue and its experience, if you will, with clients. But I think a lot of people come in because of the Seven Habits and they've realized, oh, we want to build a high trust culture, we want to build a sales discipline, we want to build, build better time management. And so they maybe come in for the Seven Habits, but they stay for a broad surround sound of compliments.

Amazing. And being the cmo, obviously your finger be on the pulse around what drives growth, what gets people in. Yes. How does a book help people? If you have a business or a brand, how does a great book help people find your brand and come in through the door?

Well, it's really everything. I mean, if you look at all the influential thought leaders that have built companies, they've all done it very similarly. Ken Blanchard, Marcus Buckingham, Simon Sinek, Stephen Covey, you know, Marshall Goldsmith, I mean, Kim Scott, I mean, you can name them on and on and on. They have a very similar formula. What they do is they usually are an expert at a single thing. If you think about it, the most 50 influential authors, you say their name and, you know, brain, health, productivity, you know, introversion, whatever it is comes to mind. So a book is a calling card for a thought leader. Here's a good example. Let's just say Dr. Covey sold 60 million copies of his book, give or take, right? And say he makes, you know, $2 on each book. So the guy made $120 million on the 7 Habits book. He built a multi billion dollar company over 40 years by turning that content into an experience, into online courses, into keynotes, into work sessions, into coaching methodologies. And so it's super important that the book be both the tip of your spear, but also can become the crux of your offering. I don't know anybody that's broken into the thought leadership world and had a way to develop courses and keynotes and coaching opportunities that didn't probably start with an idea that brought some ubiquitous interest and appeal to a broad population. It's the way it's happened for 40 years. And my guess is it will be that way for the foreseeable future as well.

Mm, I agree. And it's. You said something a minute ago. And they become experts in one thing.

Yes.

So to me, they will talk a lot about a little rather than a little about a lot.

In fact, I'll tell you in a moment of sort of vulnerability is the opposite of what I've done. And it's kind of hurt me, depending upon how you measure it. I've authored eight books. Management, marketing, leadership, mentorship, parenting careers. But I really enjoy that. I'm actually a talent and literary agent as my full time job. I write and speak as a nice compliment, but I mean, a lot of people don't know what I do. Is he the coaching guy? Is he the mentorship guy? Is he the career guy? And so I own that because I enjoy that and I'm okay with it. But if you want to build a flywheel, to quote Jim Collins, you probably should pick a lane. Doesn't mean you can't take some, you know, detours. But generally speaking, you pitch me a name. Seth Godin, Dan Pink, whoever it is, they're generally known for a core expertise or topic.

Do you regret that? Would you go back to 21 and say to Scott Young, Scott, nah, man, pick your thing.

Well, that's a different topic now, right? Because that's the difference between being a specialist and being a generalist. For example, my brother is a specialist, right. He went and got an undergraduate degree in chemical engineering. He then went to mit, got a master's in chemical engineering, and so he's a specialist. I was working on political campaigns and working for Walt Disney as a project manager and then Franklin Covey as a sales leader. And then I became a chief marketing officer. Then I moved over to host a radio program, the now the world's largest weekly leadership podcast. And I authored. No, I wouldn't have changed any of it because I'm a generalist. I'm not an anesthesiologist. Thank goodness I'm not a commercial airline pilot. Thank the Lord. I am what you might call a multifaceted, multi passionate person. Known as a person with their short attention span. I love how they clean that up. No, he's multi passionate. Used to be known as adhd. No, I don't think I would change it because I don't think it bored interest. I get bored easily, James, but I like to know a little bit about A lot versus a lot. About a little. And so fortunately, my entire career isn't based on my books. But the books have done well, my speaking, like yours has done well. And so I would not trade it. I am a generalist. I just wished to quote you@ 21 that someone would have come to me and said, scott, don't compare yourself to the guy who's going to law school. Don't compare yourself to the girl who's going to be a veterinarian or an anesthesiologist. That's not you. They're going to be very successful very early on. Build your skills, spread your interest. You're going to be a CEO. Because CEO's the C suite. Other than maybe the CFO. They generally have broad experience, understand how the whole organization works. And it's worked out well for me. Maybe I was a little bit of a late bloomer, but I'm very comfortable being a generalist. My brother has been a chemical engineer his whole life.

Boring.

Variety.

I love him.

Yeah, we'll say hello to your brother as he's listening.

Good guy.

The variety piece is important. I love that.

To me, less so to others. Right. I mean, I know people that do the same thing every day. They delivered 10,000 babies as an obstetrician and they loved it. That would drive me crazy, doing the same thing every day of the week.

Thank you so much for taking the time to watch Lead on purpose here on YouTube. Look, I'll be honest. I have absolutely no idea, no clue I how the algorithm of YouTube works. But what I do know is when one real human hits the subscribe button, it helps other real humans who are interested in this type of content to find it. So please do me a massive favor. Hit that subscribe button right now. Let's get back to it. So find what makes you tick and just get after it and be curious.

Be open. Be open to some serendipity. I had a pretty, pretty deliberate career. I wanted to be in the C Suite. So I knew I needed to have some international experience. Some supply chain, some sales, some marketing. My trajectory was to go to the C Suite. I did that. Now my 50s, that title is less important to me, as are most titles other than dad. So I think it's important to recognize a couple of things. What you are good at may not be what brings you joy. And so I think a lot of people become accountants because they're good at math, but they don't love it. So there's that balance of what am I good at? What interests me and what will people pay for? Because a lot of people are good at things that people don't want to pay for. So it has to be like a three legged stool.

I love that idea. It reminds me slightly of. It's more of a four legged stool chair. Is ikigai the Japanese philosophy?

Yes. Yeah.

It's kind of a similar kind of feel to that. We don't spend enough time exploring that.

Scott, look at you dropping your international knowledge of cultures and wisdom. Genius why your podcast is so popular.

I love it. And talking to podcasts right now, I want to let the listener know that you run an incredible leadership podcast. I'm going to put a link to it in the show notes and I'm going to encourage the listeners and viewers to go check it out.

Thanks. I just sit there and great guests come and I try to talk as little as possible, which is chemically hard for me. But I realize they're there to listen to Seth Godin. They're there to listen to Malcolm Gladwell. Right. Or Liz Wiseman or Indra Newey or Arianna Huffington or whoever it is. I try my best to ask decent questions and just let the guests do their magic. They're not all great, but most of them are smart. And if I do a good job like you have, sort of steering them, then usually the. The listener or the viewer has a good experience.

I can't wait for them to all check it out and tell me this. You know, from Stephen Covey. You've been very close. You understand the product, the services, the books really well. What's the one key lesson you've taken away from that, the one most critically important thing that you learned from coffee?

Well, I'm going to say two. One is the phrase, you can't talk yourself out of a problem that you behaved yourself into. Let that sit for a moment. You can only behave yourself out of that problem. The biggest lesson was the difference between effectiveness and efficiency. As the Chief Marketing Officer, Dr. Covey passed 10, 12 years ago, the press used to always call me and want to interview me on his seminal book, the 7 Habits of Highly Efficient People. And I would say no. The book is actually called the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, not efficient people. They sound similar, but they're very different. Efficiency and effectiveness are very different. One's not better than the other. Efficiency is productivity. It's your. It's your ability to get stuff done right. I'm a very efficient person. Sometimes too efficient with things. The dishwasher mowing the lawn but you cannot be efficient with people. You can only be effective with people.

Dr.

Covey said, with people, fast is slow and slow is fast. So the big takeaway there, James, to your audience is just know when to be efficient. And then when it comes to relationships, which is your most important contribution in life, how you develop relationships, you are in the relationship business. You're not in the business to sell it. You aren't in the business to sell tulips. You are in the business of people. So slow down. With people, you can only be efficient, only be effective, not efficient. Really, really huge learning for me because I am naturally a very efficient person. My mind is always in efficiency mode. And I'll tell you, the biggest pain I've ever had in my life professionally is because I treated someone efficient, efficiently, not effectively. I was multitasking. I was checking my watch, I was dismissing them, I was moving them along, I was interrupting them. And I'll tell you, I don't apologize for my efficiency. It's what's made all of my wealth and all of my influence and success to the greater has been any. But it's also the basis of all of my pain in my marriage with my friends, with my children, with my leaders, with my boss, with my chat, my colleagues, gets me in a lot of trouble.

Your greatest strength is often your greatest weakness.

Oh, your greatest strength, when it went overplayed is absolutely your biggest weakness.

This absolutely. How did you combat that? Where did you start to realize that in the relationship business side of your life with your family and your loved ones and your people. Where did you start? How did you get that right?

I just love the fact that you think I've made progress on it.

Assumptions are dangerous.

They are. I mean awareness is right half the battle. I'm not sure. I mean, I'm a pretty self aware person. I usually know when I'm irritating someone and I'm probably doing it on purpose because I'm bored or sinister. I've usually built enough goodwill for that person to forgive me. I don't know, James. And I've made a lot of improvement, right? I mean I am fundamentally who I am. I'm a very creative person. I'm a very impulsive person. I think I have some genius when it comes to vision and innovation. I'm fairly fearless. I'm sometimes an irresponsibly courageous person. And so I as I've matured some at the age of 56, I'm a dad now of three boys with my wife Stephanie. We'll get to that probably I'm a little more mindful of recognizing. Okay, I'm not naturally good at relationships. I'm not. I'm a fairly anxious person. I'm always living in the future. So I'm asking for the check while you're still eating your meal. I'm thinking about what's for dessert. I'm thinking about what's happening tomorrow. I recognize this about myself, so I talk about it. I warn people not to license bad behavior, but I don't want you to expect me to be someone that I'm not. And so I don't know that I have made a lot of progress on it. Then I've made awareness of it in myself. I talk about it freely with others so that when they call me out on it, I don't get defensive. I don't, I don't dispute it or deny it. I'll usually say, you're right, you're right.

I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

And then try again, try again, try again.

Really powerful. And I guess you have this visionary skill set, this inner genius, and you can't stop nurturing that because not everyone is a futurist. Not everyone can look to the future. Most people with their amygdala will look to the past and try and look for problems and blame themselves. So this visionary mindset, was that gifted to you? Was that developed? Was someone influential around you that helped you think differently?

Can I tell you, I think it's fear based, as is everything in life. I'll tell you, I don't live in the present, I don't live in the past, I live in the future. And I think it's because. And maybe some of your listeners will resonate with this. My wife and I are raising three boys. I'm the sole income earner for our family. My wife and I made a decision that I would be responsible for all the income. And so, you know, I have a lot of responsibility on me, right? Raising three boys in college, insurance and food and gas and water and power and mobile phones and tennis bills and textbooks and tutoring and on and on and on. There's 56 lines on our budget. 56 lines. And so I'm always thinking in the future, what, what if I did this? What if I wrote that and what if I appeared here? What if I spoke there? What if I created that? What if I licensed that? What if I launched that? It gets me in some trouble because I got 70 things going on. I mean, legitimately, I got people mad at me because I've over promised. It's almost like I can't cure it in myself. I have this insatiable desire to create and to build. I think it comes from fear. Fear of not having enough fear. Irrational fear of being bankrupt someday. A fear that I won't be relevant. I don't know exactly, but I'll bet it's fear based. And it's my biggest Achilles heel. Because you invite me to a meeting and I'll tell you 15 things you could do. And my problem is I'm so charismatic, I'll sell you in all 15 of them when you should absolutely not do 14 of them. The question is, you have to figure out which 14 should you not do, because I'm equally as passionate about all 15 of them. And I'll deliver them in a compelling way that will confuse that, you know what, out of you and your executive team. So I can be dangerous in a good way and in a bad way.

I just love your honesty. Like, very few people are as upfront and honest about their flaws, about the things that are challenging. But also, when I hear you say it, it's like, yeah, it's a flaw, but actually, my God, it's such a strength. And if you start to just go, no, I need a change. These flaws are bad. All of a sudden you've lost your strength and we need people like you.

Well, that's kind of you. My wife would disagree. I have a couple things I've learned. If you were to ask me, Scott, what is the biggest strength everyone needs to build, I'd say, oh, hands down, self awareness. You need to be intimately aware of what it's like to be married to you, to live next door to you, to play pickleball with you, to sit behind you in church, to be in a meeting with you, to be in a zoom call with you, to be led by you, to collaborate on a project with you. No one fully understands that, because that's painful to really understand. You need a breath mint. You need to, you know, you need a shirt that fits you better. You talk all the time, Scott. And so the more vulnerable that we're willing to be, the more we grow, the more self aware we are. And I think I've done a pretty good job of making it safe for trusted people to share with me what it's like to be in a variety of relationships with me. I said trusted people because if I go to YouTube or Revit, I should take my life because everybody hates me and thinks I'm the worst hot podcast. Trust me, you go to YouTube. You'll wonder how I even am alive, because it's all about how incompetent I am. My oldest son and I read them about once a week, and we laugh our asses off and we say, well, that's kind of mean. Well, that's actually kind of true. And, well, gosh, that person's just jealous. But so we actually have a good laugh about it. I think. I think it's important, James, not to have thick skin. Most people get it wrong, don't have thick skin. Because when you have thick skin, nothing gets in.

But nothing gets out. Instead, have, like, transparent, translucent skin. Stuff comes in, stuff comes out, and you decide, what is it that I want to keep that's helpful for me to grow in?

That's really a really great way to think of it, because often we're taught. I grew up in Northern Ireland, and it was like, you got to have a thick skin, like, to get through life and survive. But actually, that generally compounds to the point where you feel like imploding.

That's right. Or you build up defense mechanisms. I mean, people tell me all the time, scott, you know, you. You slur your words. Well, no shit. I have a stutter. I've had a debilitating speech impediment for my entire life. Speech pathologist, speech therapist. There's 35 words I can't say in public. I've had Invisalign three times. Brain. Of course I stutter my words. I have a stutter. Like, newsflash. You think that's something you can weaponize against me? And so there's not. I listen. I will be impossibly be blackmailed. No one can blackmail me because I know all of my challenges. I try not to be like a confessional. Even though I'm Catholic, it's easy. I try not to, you know, confess all my sins in public. But if I think you can learn from it, if I think it would help you talk about challenges, that you have, home run. Newsflash, I slur my words. I have a stutter. Who has a stutter? Raise your hand. Can I tell you, like you, I give about 50 keynotes a year. Every time, when it's opportune, if I choose to talk about my stutter, if I do, every time one or two people come up to me and they're crying and they say, my son has a stutter, I'm getting emotional. Or they say, I've had a stutter for most of my life, and it's been so humiliating. It's held my career back. And I hug grown men and there's sixes. I say, it's okay. I say, talk about it. Don't hide it. Talk about it. Say I have a stutter. Some stutters are neurological. Some are physiological, some are sociological. Talk about it. Don't be embarrassed by it. Everyone knows someone who has something going on. And the more you can talk about it, the more you build power and you give power to people not to be embarrassed. I had one guy come up to me and talk about his grandson had a stutter. And they never talk about it. I said, no, no, you should talk about it. Say, hey, tell me. I noticed that your stutter is a little strong today. Was there something stressful going on? Can I have a hug?

Gosh.

Can I tell you my friend Scott Miller has a stutter. Look what he has done. I think it's so important to talk about your challenges responsibly, appropriately. Some will weaponize them against you. You never, you never play to the outliers. Right? There will always be people that try to use it against you. Shame on them. Not your people. They'll get fired. Don't worry. Eventually, play to the center and give voice to people to say, it's okay. Talk about it. Grow, build, mature.

That's so powerful. And I want to talk about fear again. So you talked about fear driving you a lot. And I believe that all humans are driven by fear. And you mentioned a few of them, but you had a stutter. I can only begin to imagine what that stutter is. You have a stutter, you still have it, right? It's there. But you stand on stages.

Yes.

Now we. We had a piece of research that we were looking at recently. The vast majority of humans in this piece of research said they would rather be inflicted with physical pain than to face public humiliation, as in standing on stage and being laughed at or saying something stupid. You have overcome one of the humans greatest fears high on earth. Did you do that?

A lot of hard work, a lot of speech therapy, A lot of sessions with speech coaches renting out 5,000 seat theaters where the night before it was Dancing with the Stars and the next night it's YouTube. And the night it was down, it was me with a. With a speech Coach in seat 800 in a megaphone saying, no, wrong. Stand back. Start over for four and five hours. Tearing me down, building me back up. I can't hear you. Why are you slurring? Why is your hand going this way? Because that's backwards for the audience. The Audience sees it backwards, Right? And reverse your gestures, just over and over. Being kind of humiliated in private with someone I trust, building me down and building me back up. So one. So first and foremost, it was reps. It was reps. A lot of reps. A lot of reading. Because, as you know, stutterers have to have a big vocabulary. So I don't watch movies or TV ever. I read books, as you can see behind me if you're on camera, because There are about 35 words I cannot say in public. And when that word is coming up in three or four sentences, I have to have eight or 10 options. Almost like taking your car off the highway, picking up a word in a rest stop, and bringing it back on. So I've done a lot of work to cover, if you will, my stutter. I talk about it freely, but I will tell you. I was in high school, working at a bakery once in central Florida, and a tourist came in and asked me for directions on how to go somewhere. There's a long backstory to this. I worked my way up from mopping the floors, washing the dishes, driving the van, to becoming a customer service person, running the cash register with a stutter that was Herculean. Having interaction. I might cry. This is a little PTSD for me. Having interaction. This woman come in and asked me for directions to go, I think it was, like, to a beauty salon. She ordered a cup of tea and a chocolate croissant. This was 40 years ago. I remember like it was yesterday. And when I packaged it up to her, she says to me as she walks out, you are a powerful communicator. You have a great command of the English language. This will take you far in life. You are a powerful communicator. You have great command of the English language. This will take you far in life. I was not a powerful communicator, but she validated something she saw in me that I did not see in myself. And I've never forgotten what she ordered. And I can repeat it word for word 40 years later, later, someone validated to me something at the age of, like, 17 that they saw. And so it's just stuck with me. My point in sharing that, James, is, as parents, as leaders, as friends, don't hesitate to think judiciously, contemplatively, authentically about a superpower, a genius you see in someone, and then when the time is right, tell them, use very specific words that they will remember for the rest of their life. This is a powerful skill you have as a leader. Don't Walk around and say, oh, James, you were on time. That's your superpower, James. You take good notes and no, think of something really genuine and authentic that you see in them, that differentiates them. And then say, hey, James, can I call you aside a second? I want to pay you a compliment. I don't want you to defute it. I don't want you to go all shocks. No, I just want you to listen and own it. And then use specific words to call out what you see in James. Cite an example or a couple of examples. Don't do it for 10 minutes, do it for one minute and say, I just want you to own this. And can I tell you, when someone is kicking James ass two years ago and he has to take that quiver or that arrow out of his quiver because he needs a little bit of self esteem, James will never forget it. Do not underestimate the power of authentic validation.

That's so powerful. Yeah, and I get that. I know in companies where it's like, hey, there's 40 of us in a room on a Monday morning. And I'm just going to say, you know what, your team, you guys are just awesome. That was great work. That's important. But however, it's so general that it doesn't land with anyone. But picking out Johnny or Susie for something specific and acknowledging and recognizing that, to me, that's the difference that makes the difference. I agree.

Well said. I've almost cried twice in your podcast. Your superpower is bringing the emotions out of your guests. Nicely done, James.

I'll take that, Scott. Thank you. We're just getting started. Now, let's talk about something that I believe we are both very passionate about. And from what I know so far, I believe we both feel like we are rookies in this area of our lives and that is in the area of being a parent. So I've got an eight year old and I love him dearly and he teaches me so much. And all I want is when I die, hopefully in many, many years, for him to be able to feel and think and say he was a good dad, that would be success.

What does parenthood mean to you?

Oh, here's the word association. Horror, stress, pain, drama, trauma, nightmare, fatigue. I mean, financial ruin. I mean, should I keep going? Let me be clear, people. I don't love parenting, but I actually intensely dislike parenting.

I'm a reluctant parent. I was married when I was 41. My wife and I, technically her, had three boys in five years at the age of 42, 46. And like 48. I believe that great people can love their children and still intensely dislike parenting. I do not like parenting. I probably discuss that too much with my kids that are 10, 12, and 13, all boys. But I give them the backstory. They understand. But, you know, I don't think everybody's meant to be a parent. I was not. It's not my calling in life. Honestly, I don't enjoy it 95% of the time. I think I'm actually a really great parent, but it does not come naturally to me. I do not enjoy it. Most nights, I don't want to parent. I want to read. I want to take a shower. I want to play tennis. I want to go a glass of champagne. I want to go on vacation. I want to play.

Do anything for myself.

Kiss that goodbye.

So I. I have an interesting point of view about parenting, which we can talk more about. I like you want my children to think I did a great job on the important things. I've, you know, I've phoned it in on other things.

But it's. I hope to give voice in my next book to the people who are like me. Maybe not like you, but people like me that actually don't enjoy parenting. And I don't think it makes me a bad person. I know it doesn't, as a matter of fact.

Makes me a parent with struggle. Makes me a parent who's honest. And so I try to find what are my strengths and run with those hard. And I don't try to be all things to all three of my sons. It's impossible.

I love it. Again, this, like, radical honesty.

True, true.

It's interesting. I would say there's a large percentage of my parenting role that I love, and then there's also a significant percentage where I actually really am uncomfortable. I dislike it. It's frustrating. I'm with you on that 100%. But it's not part of parenting that I like to shine the light on. And that's. That's a shame. Like, I should be able to shine the light on that and go, hey, it's bloody difficult. It is a mess. It is chaotic. It is stressful. It is inconvenient. But I think there's so much public shame of being able to say that. And it's all just my own perception, right?

No, I think if you get on Instagram and Facebook, if I see one more, my friends say, my children completely. My children bring so much joy to me. Like, what.

What.

What are you talking about? Did I like, did I miss that? Course I mean, what I mean, again, great people can love their children and not like parenting. I use the word hate. It's a little strong of a word. I got to find the right word there. But, you know, I'm actually really good at having the tech, the talk around sex. I'm really good about teaching my kids great eye contact and handshaking and not using the words and. And no hoodies and how to use their napkin and how to sophisticate themselves at a dinner party. I'm really good at putting them in tennis lessons and great education. I'm actually a fun parent. We dance and we joke and we are right is I'm not good at playing Legos. I don't play Legos. I'm not good at puzzles and games. I don't play puzzles and games. I don't get on the floor with my kids. Never did. Not going to. And I know I should. So I have to figure out, what am I great at? Hopefully my wife can fill in some of the blanks. You know, I'm not sure I've actually ever been on a bike ride with my kids. We live in the city, we don't live in the. There's no bike riding here. Right. We've been to Italy, we've been to France, we've been to Switzerland, we've been to Austria, we've been snow skiing, we've played tennis tournaments, we've been to the US Open, we've been to the theater. But honest to God, I'm not sure we've ever ridden a bike together. Now, I rode a bike, not with my dad, interestingly, but so it haunts me, those things. Like, I seriously had never ridden a bike with my sons. What the heck? Snow skied, played tennis, climb on hikes. So I have to forgive myself for the things that haunt me that I feel like I should be doing at my deathbed. Is my son going to say, dad, but we never played Legos? I'm going to say, you're right because I stepped on one once and dropped an F bomb and vowed never to do it ever again.

I hit those damn things, too.

I love it. It's interesting.

Can I give you a confession real quick? Of course. A good friend of mine is a very famous neuroscientist from the U.S. his name is Dr. Daniel Amen. Written dozens of books, sold millions of copies. He's actually renowned as a neuroscientist and as a clinical psychiatrist. He's an md. He specializes in child psychiatry, adhd, things like that. And I asked him once for his best parenting tip. I've written about it in the book. And he said the best tip I can give you is get down on the floor with your children and play at eye contact. And it's something I never did because I'm actually a very thin person. I'm about 6 1, 170, 172 after a pot roast. Right. I'm a very lean person. And can I tell you, I'm not enormously muscular, but for me, it's actually quite uncomfortable sitting on a tile floor. It's not comfortable for me and I don't talk about this a lot, but it's rare to be underweight. Most people are overweight, but it's actually really uncomfortable for me to sit on a wood floor or on a cement patio or a tile floor. And so as a result of that, I don't do it. Could I go to the gym and get 30 pounds of muscle? Probably. But instead, I'll take my kids to Barnes and Noble and we'll read books and we'll do other things and we'll go snow skiing and we'll go to, you know, the south of France and, you know, to a vineyard.

They're clearly not missing out. You know what I mean?

Well, we'll see. We'll see. I'm sure they'll weaponize the non bike riding thing after they watch your podcast episode.

What I love is that you have a passion for books, for the written word.

I do.

And you're exposing them to your passion. And I think as a parent, that's a great thing to do. You're going one step further, and this is really inspiring me because you have written a book. In fact, I'm not going to say you have written it. You've co authored a book that's sitting right behind you called Parenting Mess to launch Success. Yes. Now, we all know you, but tell us about your co author. For the person that doesn't know who that is, who's your co author?

Would you mind if I shared the backstory to the book?

Please do.

So, as I mentioned, my wife and I have three sons. Our youngest is 10. His name is Wentworth Miller. Our middle child is 12. His name is Smith Miller, and our oldest is 14. His name is Thatcher Miller, after one of my heroes, Margaret Thatcher. I know people were gonna unfriend me, whatever. And so they're all tennis players, like very serious tennis players. Smith, my middle son, is number one in his age group in our state.

Wow.

And I knew for several years that the middle son was going to eclipse the oldest son's skill in tennis. The oldest son is. Oldest son is quite good, but he's not as good as his younger middle brother. And I saw this coming three years ago. And so I started thinking, you know what this is? This is a train wreck. Fighting, self esteem, all kinds of things. So I invited the oldest son, who's a really great student, very affable, well articulated. I said, why don't you and I host. Co host. Co author, if you will. The third book in the Mess to Success series. The first book was called Management Mess to Leadership Success. The second book was called Marketing Mess to Brand Success. The third book was actually going to be Communication Mess to influence success. I've moved that to the fourth book because I needed something to give my middle son that he could have outside of tennis. Because as much as he's passionate about it, his middle brother, sorry, the oldest son, the middle brother is blowing past him. It's been very damaging to his self esteem, to lots of things. It is what it is, right? I try to normalize it and anyway, so I invited him to be the author for lots of reasons. First and foremost was an identity outside of tennis. Second was what a great book to write with your dad to confess all your dad's parenting problems.

Right?

So he's loving that. And he's on TV right now, he's on the radio. He, he's being invited to keynote around the World. Was on a private jet last week going to a client's home. He's a 14 year old, right. So he's loving it. It's going to be great for his college admissions. It's going to be great for a tennis team, you know, roundabout when he's going to college and whether or not he becomes an author, I don't care. Keynote speaker, I don't care. But I'm telling you, those are skills that will reward him no matter what he does in life. Being able to, you know, convert his thoughts to writing, being able to express them in a fluent verbal way. And so he's very excited about it.

He's got a little bit of a chip on his shoulder.

So I have to kind of, you know, I got to bring him down to earth a couple times. He asked me every day, dad, how much money did I earn today? $6. Son, you sold six books and you earned half of it.

I love it. I think that's amazing. I salute you because bringing our kids along the journey with us, making it about them and really imparting life lessons, I mean, that's not easy to do. And there's challenges in that. There's time required, there's risks. You've taken it all, you've done it all. Now, parenting mess. What are we going to learn about ourselves in there as we open that up and explore it? What's the key takeaway?

Yeah. Should come out in mid January. Available now on Amazon and all the other book retailers for pre order. All my books follow a formula. It's usually 30 of this or 15 of that or something like that. This is 30 challenges that all parents face if they want to have lifelong relationships and influence with their children. I get it. Having a 10, 12 and 14 year old isn't launched yet, so parenting Mess to launch success is a little premature, I understand. But you're going to learn a lot of riotous things that I did. Oh, my gosh. Living vicariously through my children. We talk about how to have the talk. I use the exact words that I used when all three boys got the talk from me. So it's a pretty, you know, pretty outrageous chapter. I talk about technology and iPad use. We talk about having a religious identity or some identity that's bigger than yourself. And so some are very practical. All of them are riotous and blushworthy of things that I did that were insane. Like buy every Ralph Lauren shirt there ever was because I never had them as a kid and I was destined to show my children how successful I was by being able to afford every Ralph Lauren color there was in the store. Crazy stupid stuff like that. But can I tell you the joy in this is? The joy is the boys are reading it and of course Thatcher is co writing. So they're seeing the backstory, like, oh, that's why you did that. I always wondered why you did that. Or that's why I did this is because you did it. And it's part of my epigenetics. Thanks a lot, dad. So there's a lot of great conversations going on. I got no secrets left with these boys. What I hope it's doing is it's kind of, you know, taking the veil away, taking the mystique. Parents are people. Parents are jealous. Parents are insecure. Parents are fear driven. We're trying to do our best on the most important job in the world. With no training, we're going to screw it up. We need to apologize, we need to explain, we need to try to rewind.

Those are the things you're going to see in the book.

I can't wait for this Book.

It's funny.

It's amazing. It's just like, to me, again, it's just such courage and vulnerability.

People are going to call child protective services on me, but I actually put the phone number in the email in the book to save people time from researching. I'm like, yeah, column, whatever.

You're so good. I love it. I need to read the chapter about having the. The talk, because. Oh, yeah, Finn's eight, you know, and. Yeah, that's going to be in the next couple of years. Like, I don't know.

That's now. That's now.

Okay.

That's now second grade. I know it seems horrifying. Can you send me the chapter? I will, I will. Their friends are already telling them, and they're telling them things that are not true. So just so you know. What is your son's name?

Finn.

Finn. Yeah. Finn already has more knowledge than you think he does, and he's getting it from his friends in second grade or finding. Yeah. What grade is he in?

He's in year three.

Oh, yeah. Oh, they're talking about it. Let me tell you. And so I did it in second grade, which seems insanely early, but the clinicians will tell you, you know, age appropriate. Right. Each child's a little bit different. But, I mean, I used the right words. I used the medical words. I used the term ejaculation. I used the term erection. I used the term vagina. I also used the term love. Love relationship. I put it in the terms of how our family views marriage and sex and procreation. So I used the right terms so that they use the right terms. Because I heard them talking about things, I thought, where did you learn that? Not from me. I want Finn teaching Thatcher how to do this. I don't want Thatcher. I actually, I do want Thatcher to do Finn. But my point is, I didn't get it perfectly right. But you know what? My parents never had to talk with me.

My parents have never told me about this. And so I got it from everybody at school, and I had no idea. At least my boys got it accurate from their dad, even though it was horrifying over a cup of hot chocolate one night at a bakery. I always do it at a bakery.

I'm gonna take. I'm just gonna copy you on this one. I'm gonna get the chapter. I'm gonna read it, I'm gonna go and do it, and I'm gonna let you know when it's done.

I love it. I love mission accomplished. Because, listen, I. I'm A little cuckoo, right? I lack. I lack a couple of genes and embarrassment is an emotion I am not familiar with. So I can just like launch into the talk with no trepidation. It's an odd thing for me. It's one of my strengths and one of my weaknesses. I do not experience embarrassment.

Good. You're lucky. I love it. Scott, I want to be mindful of your time, and I know that this is the first of many conversations. We could go deep for a long time, but a couple of things. So I want to ask you a question that's to me, critically important for the listener.

I realized I'm the first guest who's ever used those words on your podcast.

Yes, you are.

I hope I did that with some grace and relevance. Keep going, please.

It was absolutely spot on. I love it. So I think a lot about purpose. Obviously, lead on purpose is about bringing on leaders, whether they're leading countries, companies, small teams, themselves. I want to know what people believe about people purpose, because I believe if we've got purpose, we are going to live our lives intentionally. We're going to make some form of difference to the people around us and be proud. But many people lack it. Many people lack meaning and purpose, and it causes a lot of pain and suffering. So for a minute, let's pretend you've fast forwarded many years into the future. You're highly aware that it's your very last day here on earth and someone very young, maybe a grandchild, comes into the room and says, scott, how do I go about leading my life on purpose? What would you say to them?

Well, I will answer it through the lens.

That only I can, which is I was raised in a religious family. My mother was a Methodist. Still is. My father was a Catholic. He's passed. And so I have carried that faith tradition forward. In our home, we are raising our boys in a religious family. It's a component of our life, not all consuming. And so I believe that my creator has a purpose for my life. I think my job is to uncover it and discover it. I think the vast majority of us don't in our lives, and I think that's okay. I don't know what my purpose is. I think it's now to raise three boys. Strangely, I think that's my purpose. I created that purpose because she was good looking. We fell in love. Still is and still are. Although those boys try to try to destroy that quite frequently.

I would say, you know.

Bring happy, bring joy, be kind. You know, we're here to make life easier. For others, I think that's everyone's purpose a little bit, is to make life a little better and easier for other people. I would say don't, don't. Don't fixate on, like. Like, naming your purpose. Don't obsess over that. I'm 56 years old. If I was going to die an hour from now, my purpose wouldn't even be on my mind. It would be, have I apologized where I needed to? Have I generally done my best? Have I set my family up for stability in the future?

Have I forgiven myself from being hard on myself? I'm trying to answer your question. I'm aware of it. I don't know that I have a great answer.

I am less consumed with naming and finding my purpose and more focused on being kinder, which I'm not naturally. Being more patient, which I'm not naturally. Being more forgiving of myself, which I'm not naturally.

Scott, that's so powerful.

I was a speaker at an event in the US Called the Purpose Summit, two years in a row. And they stopped inviting me because I kept saying, I. I don't know what my purpose is. And the fact of the matter is no one in the room did either. No one did either. And so I think you're asking the right question.

I think you do have to uncover it, you discover it, and maybe your purpose changes with your roles.

Right?

I mean, you know, my purpose wasn't parenting 15 years ago. It very clearly is now. My primary responsibility is as husband and wife. I do one better than the other.

And I think, you know, 10 years from when the boys are launched, my purpose will probably change, hopefully will be, you know, maintaining my marriage and being a little calmer and being a more civil and being less intense and less anxious. Maybe my answer is, is to understand what role you are in life, what your roles are, and be very deliberate and intentional about your activities, your time, your energy. And when your roles change, that changes. Your purposes may change. Your purpose may change over time.

That's so freeing to hear.

I did my best.

Sorry. You did brilliant. I love it. I think a listener needed to hear that because we are, like, almost forced to decide upon what our purpose is and name it and write it down and tell the world. I love what you just said. That's so freeing.

I just love how you said the word world with an Irish accent. Do that again.

World.

World. I love it.

I love.

I'm telling you, it's the Kiwis, the Irish, and the Australians that, oh, it's South Africans. There's four of you that, like, dominate the accents. You're like. You're like, second in the accent hierarchy of the world. I'll take that one.

My partner's South African. She'll be delighted to hear that.

South Africans, number one. Absolutely number one. Irish number two. Probably Kiwi. Three. Sorry. Ozzy is your number four. Americans like 48.

That's outstanding. Well, Scott, I'm going to make sure and put a link to pre order your amazing new book that your son co authored. It's going to be incredible. And also a link to all your socials because people need to follow you, they need to buy your books. And please keep doing what you're doing. And you call it intensity. I call it passion. You're so passionate for life and communicating. Please never give up on that.

I don't know how to. So you're in safe hands because it's natural. Thank you, man. Thanks for the spotlight, James. You're a class act. I appreciate you letting me riff extemporaneously. Thanks for letting me talk about my son Thatcher and the new book Parenting Mess. It's very kind of you also to be promoting my podcast. I think people should focus on yours and they happen to discover mine accidentally. Great. But let's focus on the Lead on Purpose podcast.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate you, Scott.

Healing is mutual.

The Lead on Purpose podcast is sponsored by NZ Mortgages. Learn more at nzmortgages.co nz.