From Prime Minister to Opposition:Chris Hipkins Resilient Leadership Journey in New Zealand Politics

I'm asking New Zealanders to think about what type of leadership you want.

What did it mean to you to be Prime Minister of New Zealand?

It's a pretty amazing feeling. I get to do things that make me really happy. What am I doing to bring joy to other people? The goal of life is not to hoard wealth. Human beings are motivated by more than self interest. She burst into tears and said that she lost everything. Really volatile situations, I think it's really tough, get really frustrated. They don't know how to actually. Politics should be a vigorous contest. Darker moments where you're thinking, what am I doing? I don't need any more input. At this point where you're head of all the clutter, am I in the right space to have this conversation? Should I just walk away? For.

Today'S episode is a little different. Welcome to Lead On Purpose. I'm James Laughlin and recently I jumped on a plane with my 7 year old son Finn and headed up to the capital and we headed to the Beehive. And for those that are not from New Zealand, that's where parliament and government operate. So we got to sit down with former Prime Minister Chris Hipkins. He's now leader of the opposition party. And it was lovely to sit down and talk to him about what makes him tick, how he leads the lens, he sees the world through, what he thinks of the opposition. And then at the very end of this conversation, something very special is going to unfold that I've never done before. I hand the microphone to Finn, my 7 year old. He gets to ask the former Prime Minister some questions, things that he was interested in. So I hope you do enjoy it. Please sit back and enjoy the show. Chris, a huge welcome to the Lead On Purpose podcast.

Thank you. It's good to be talking to you.

Thanks for making the time, creating this space. I know you're a very busy man. I wanted to start by asking you what did it mean to you to be Prime Minister of New Zealand?

It's a pretty amazing feeling and it's not one that I was necessarily expecting either. You know, my good friend Jacinda Ardern was the Prime Minister and I'd kind of, you know, just sort of assumed that that would continue. And, you know, I was very happy supporting her as a senior government minister. I loved the job that I had. You know, I loved being Minister of Education, loved being Minister of Police. Then Jacinda stood down and I had the opportunity to become Prime Minister and I wasn't expecting that. And so that was pretty Amazing. But I'm also, you know, I've kind of gone through life with the attitude that when an opportunity pops up, unless there's a really good reason not to, you should. You should make the most of the opportunities that are in front of you. And you should never not do something because you're, you know, intimidated by it. I mean, becoming Prime Minister is a pretty big thing.

Absolutely.

But you should never not do something because you're intimidated. You know, you should always be willing to give it a go.

And you did.

Yeah.

And when you look back at it. So I believe you were head boy at your high school. So do you feel that leadership was something that was kind of in the blood, or that Mum and Dad had some kind of shaping of that for you?

Not necessarily. I mean, I didn't even back then, I wouldn't have even necessarily thought that I'd have a life in politics. Politics was something I discovered kind of as I arrived at university. You know, I discovered student politics on campus and then I actually went away from it again for a wee while and I did. I did some consulting work in the oil and gas industry, around training, you know, around training for apprentices and so on. It's still an area of passion of mine. I still think there's so much more we can do in areas like apprenticeships. But then I got an opportunity to come here and work at Parliament and that was sort of the beginning of my time in politics. Although, again, after being here for about three years, I stepped away from it for a while. I went overseas and travelled for a year, as I would encourage all young Kiwis to do, because you just get such a different view of things when you've lived and worked overseas. Makes you appreciate New Zealand that much more when you come home after that.

I agree with that. And it's interesting. Sometimes we talk about a career politician, someone who's just in it from day one, and it sounds like you're the opposite of that. You've been in and out checking what's happening in the world.

Yeah, I mean, some people would say that I'm a career politician because I've spent a lot of time in politics. But ultimately, I think you've got to have a. You've got to have a bit of a balance in this place. You need to have some people who understand how the democratic process works, how Parliament works, how the machine of government works. But then you also do need people who come in and bring some external perspective from time to time. And I think the challenge is if you only have people who are coming in from the outside, they don't know how to actually achieve the things that they're coming in here to achieve. And they get really frustrated. And in many cases, I've seen people who have had high flying careers outside of politics come into politics, be really frustrated by the place and then leave within a relatively short space. And that's just a waste. And I think the secret and all political parties need to manage this is to get the balance right. So you've got some people who have been around a while who have worked in a variety of different roles in politics and then you balance that out with people who are coming in with a fresh external perspective as well.

Makes sense. Totally. And if you think back to childhood, you know, I believe in values driven leadership. And when you're at a leadership position, which you are, you are driven by your values. So what kind of values do you feel like Mum and Dad are being imparted with you?

My mum always used to sort of have a saying when we were kids, it's much easier to see people who have more than you. It's a lot harder to see the people who have less than you. And so I've always, that's always stuck with me. It's kind of, it's been deeply embedded in the way that I think, you know, you can always look and see, oh, you know, the people down the road, they've got a nicer house, they've got a better car, they go to the movies more often, you know, they're going out for dinner all the time. You don't tend to notice as much that there are people who are living in much more modest accommodation at the other end of the street who maybe are renting, who don't have a flash new car. In fact, they don't have a car at all. They're walking everywhere. You don't tend to see those people as much as you see the people who have got the big flashy new stuff. And so I think that's a really important value to take through life. Because if you're in politics and you're in politics to make a difference, it's always important that you're looking at the people who are less fortunate than you. And I think one of our goals, one of my goals in politics has got to be making sure that we're looking out for those who have less. And if we're making life better for them or helping them to make life better for themselves, that's got to be a big win.

Massive Win for all of New Zealand and future generations. We've both got children similar age and we want to be setting them up with that mindset about how do we help others. I believe that you can't give what you don't have. And so it's about learning, like, okay, what value do I bring? Whether that's through education, whether that's through what you do for work or what you do for passions.

One of my mum's, dad, my grandfather, one of his sayings was, if you've got more than you need, you've got more than your share. And I think that's another thing that we should think about as well. The goal of life is not to hoard wealth.

And all the niceties of life. Actually, one of the goals in life has to be to ask yourself the question regularly. Well, what am I doing to bring joy to other people? Human beings are a very sociable species.

This way that we live now, this very autonomised.

Atomized way that human beings live at the moment, it's not always been that. There's a very recent development. Human beings are actually quite tribal people. We've always lived in large groups, we're very sociable. And yet the way we structure our lives now really doesn't, doesn't really acknowledge that. And I think that that's one of the things that when we look at more isolation, more loneliness, more, you know, the growing mental health crisis that we see not just in New Zealand but around the world, it's because we're living in unnatural ways. In many cases we're working on this basis that if everyone just looks after their own interest, everyone will be fine. That's actually not the way human beings are programmed. We're quite an empathetic people. We're very sociable people. And the way we live and work and the things that we prioritise should reflect that. I agree.

That's interesting. So Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the top aspect was self actualization, but it was written, recorded that prior to his death he said, I've got it wrong, there's another level. And it's about, not about self actualization, it's about what I'm doing for others. It's group actualization, community actualization. So what you're saying really matches up from a psychology perspective.

Yeah. And you know, there's people who do amazing things out of just sort of real altruism. And I remember meeting someone during the cyclones who had been, she was a nurse and had, was working in a makeshift health Clinic that they'd set up in a pub and was just helping all of these people following the cyclones because all these health conditions immediately materialize. And when I asked her how she was going, she burst into tears and said that she'd lost everything. Her home, everything that she had. She basically had the clothes that she was wearing and nothing else. But then she said, I don't have time to think about that because she was busy, you know, supporting other people. Now at some point she was going to have to figure out what she was going to do about that. But it just reminded me that actually human beings are motivated by more than self interest.

If that nurse had been motivated by self interest, she would not have been working around the clock to support other people in the way that she was. Was totally.

We need more people like that.

Yeah, absolutely. And we need to celebrate the people who are doing that kind of stuff. You know, I don't remember the noose's name, but I remember what she said.

What's interesting, because the TikToks, the Instagrams, the Facebooks of the world, they actually celebrate the wealth, the private jet, selfies. There's not enough of celebrating the great humans that are doing things for others.

I think that one of the things about social media that we always forget is it's a highlights reel from other people's lives. It's not their day to day existence. And if you're sitting at home lying in bed in your pajamas, scrolling through other people's Facebook feeds, it would be natural to think, I'm missing out on life. All my friends are out there doing all of these amazing things, and here I am at home in bed in my pajamas, and I'm missing out on life. The reality is that's because no one puts photos on Facebook of themselves sitting in bed, scrolling on Facebook. But actually everyone does it. And you're not actually missing out. You have things that are going on in your life that are just as exciting as your friends on Facebook. Focus on those, you know, celebrate those. But also recognize that we all have moments of boredom. I actually was chatting to someone the other day who was one of the lives in the States, bought one of the first iPads, you know, when iPads first came out and then actually gave it away fairly quickly. And we were talking about why that was, and he said, because it was robbing me of my moments of boredom. He's like, when you're just sitting on the bus or whatever, this kind of constant need to be looking at what other people are doing, it Robs you of your moments of boredom and your moments of boredom, that's when you think, it's when you reflect, it's when you come up with new ideas. And so I, you know, since that conversation, it's a really interesting discipline and I've tried to do this through my time in politics, is to create those moments where you just decompress or you disconnect. I love to garden. One of the reasons I like to garden is because you can't, you can't be looking at your phone, you can't be reading things. It's just, it's you. And whatever the project is that you're doing, which you have to spend a certain amount of time thinking on and just that opportunity to think and to sort of clear your head of all the clutter that fills it up on a daily basis, we need more of.

That deep work, that slow productivity. You know, we're hyper productive nowadays, but I think the deep work of getting off devices, going for the walk, doing the gardening, from a leadership point of view, we need more people doing that.

Yeah, I mean even, you know, I do audiobooks when I'm walking now, we were just talking about that before and I love doing that. But there are also times when I'm like, no, actually I'm just going to go for a walk without, without anything else. I don't need any more input at this point, you know, and now is just my time to process what I've already got. And so getting knowing when you need that is really important. One of the things that.

I did when I was the Minister of police is we launched a new training program for frontline police in terms of their crisis response, you know, their tactical response. How do police keep themselves safe when they're dealing with really volatile situations? And one of the things that they get taught, there are some self awareness skills. So when something big is happening, one of the first things they need to do is sort of stop and go, okay, how am I responding to this situation? Where's my head at right now? Am I feeling stressed? Am I feeling under pressure? Am I likely to make a spur of the moment decision that's wrong? Am I, you know, and really understanding their own emotions as they head into a really difficult situation is a huge part of determining what the outcome of that situation is going to be. Because if you go into something on edge when it's already going to be a really difficult situation, you're more likely to make a mistake. Whereas if you actually take, you know, 10 seconds to ground yourself, before doing something, whether it's before going and getting the gun out of the back of the car or whatever it is you need to do, you're actually more likely to get a safer and a better outcome. And I think that we all need to think of that from time to time.

So when we're going with our friends.

And family, yeah, when we're going into a situation, when we can feel that an argument is about to start at home, taking that 10 seconds to go, how am I responding to this situation?

Am I acting consistent with the values that I have? Am I in the right space to have this conversation? Should I just walk away for two or three minutes and gather my thoughts before I have this argument with the member of my family that I'm about to have an argument with? That kind of mindfulness is, I think, a really important part of being happy. Definitely, you know, probably more important to happiness than any material wealth that you might. Might have. Just that ability to stop now and then and just to reflect. And again, coming back to that staying that I had of my mums. It's also easy, you know, it's easy to see people who have got more than you rather than the people who've got less. It's also easy to see what you don't have rather than what you do. And now and then just stopping and saying, okay, look, I've got a massive wish list. You know, I could go shopping every weekend and buy new things that I like every now and then, just stopping and going, actually, I've got some pretty great stuff in my life. I've got some amazing people in my life who make me really happy. I'm really proud of members of my family. I get to do things that make me really happy and that give me an enormous sense of satisfaction. That's pretty lucky. I have a job that, whilst frustrating from time to time, particularly more frustrating when you're doing this job than the one that I had before. Because, you know, in opposition, you're more likely to be sort of critiquing and criticizing rather than doing things. I still have a job, which I love, you know, I still have a job where I get to interact with people. And so when you do find in opposition those kind of darker moments where you're thinking, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? Reminding yourself of the things that are important, the things that you enjoy about your work that kind of gives you the lift that you need to keep going 100%.

And it's interesting, in opposition, your role is to look for, hey, how can I hold people to account and make sure that the people of New Zealand are cared for and looked after? But if we were to look at the positive, you looked at your opposition leader right now and said, you know what? The one thing I really admire about him, what would that be?

It's always a struggle. You do tend to look less objectively upon your opponent, because in politics, fundamentally, it's a contest not just of ideas, it's a contest for position as well. And so when he was sitting in this office, this time a year ago, he was sort of thinking, how can I replace Chris Hipkins as Prime Minister? And now I'm sitting here thinking the reverse, you know, how could I replace him? And so you're probably not looking for each other's strengths. And.

I think accepting that that's a legitimate part of the political process is actually quite important, because politics should be a vigorous contest. It's not a democracy if it isn't. And so when you're sitting here thinking.

You know, why am I, Why am I doing this? It's quite negative. It is an important part of, you know, democracy is for the government of the day to be challenged. And I never took it personally when I was on the other end of that, you know, during the COVID 19 response period, some of the stuff that came directed my way from, you know, people was pretty, I can only imagine, pretty aggressive, but I never took it personally. People were lashing out at my position rather than me personally. Although they don't always express it that way. Sometimes they'll express it very personally, but I always sort of made an effort to compartmentalize that and say, actually, that's Chris Ipkins the politician that they're talking to, not Chris Ipkins the person or the dad or the private individual. Because I think that, again, that helps you to get through what you're doing in politics. So, yeah, we have an interesting relationship, the Prime Minister and I, but I've also kind of taken the view. I don't think. I think the job of the opposition is to critique what the government are doing. I don't think it's deliberately to sabotage what they're doing. And, you know, I was on the receiving end of some of that during the time that we were in government and I found that really frustrating. So where the government are doing something which you think, if I was them, I'd be doing the same thing. I'm not going to go out and critique that or criticise that. Yesterday they made a really difficult decision around naming China as being involved in a cyber security hack of New Zealand at New Zealand's parliament. I would have done the same thing, you know, had I still been the Prime Minister. And so I'm not going to go out and criticise them for it or try and pick holes in it. I'm actually going to endorse what they've done. I'm going to support them, because actually, I think that's better for democracy than us just fighting for the sake of it 100%.

And I want to talk about a person I look up to a lot, Nelson Mandela. I've read lots about him. I've sat down with some of his family members to try and understand who was Nelson the man. And he had something he was willing to die for and fought his entire life, went to prison for it. That was justice and racial equality for you. What's the thing that you're like? In my life in politics here in New Zealand, this is the one thing that I'm willing to fight for.

Yeah. Economic inequality is the thing that really kind of motivates me to be involved in politics. And it's not just about wealth, it's about opportunity and about the ability to make the most of those opportunities. So there's so much more that goes into the debate about inequality than someone earning more than someone else or someone having more assets than someone else. It's actually more than that. It's about is life a level playing field? To what extent do you chances in life get determined before you're even born? And what we're seeing now in the modern economy is increasingly, people's chances in life are more and more predetermined by the circumstances into which they are born. And to me, that's not what life should be about. Life should give you choices and options, and sometimes you'll be successful, sometimes you won't. But the idea that that's predetermined before you're even born, I think is really tough. And there is overwhelming evidence and it's growing by the day, that increasingly that's the way society is going. So that is the thing that kind of motivates me, is we have to change that. We have to make it so that if you do sort of fulfill that great cliche, you know, you work hard to get ahead, you should actually be able to get ahead from your hard work. And there's a lot of people who feel that they can't. So I guess that's kind of the thing that really motivates me. But you mentioned Nelson Mandela and, you know, I've drawn a lot of inspiration from reading about him and reading things that he's written in the past. I think he would. I would definitely describe him as a stoic. And I think stoicism is something that is really undervalued in the modern way that we live and work and play. You know, that idea that sometimes life's tough and actually the secret there is to keep going. And again, you focus on the things that you can change rather than the things that might be overwhelming you. So when you are feeling overwhelmed, you know, make a list and do the stuff that you can do. Do the things that are actually within your control. If you look at Nelson Mandela's life, for a huge amount of his life, he couldn't make a difference, but he never gave up. And he focused on the things that he could change and that those little. They might just be minuscule things. You know, all that time that he was in prison, the things that he could change were tiny. But in the grand scheme of things, he made a major change. If he'd just given up and said, this is all too hard, never would have happened, 100%.

We need more leaders like that. Look, I want to be mindful of your time. And of course, this is Finn, my son's first time here interviewing anyone. So he's going to jump in very shortly. But just one last question before we do that. I'd love to. In your mind, fast forward many, many years into the future. You're highly aware it's your last day here on Earth, and someone very young walks into the room that you care deeply about, and they say, chris, how do I lead my life on purpose? What advice would you give them?

Know your own values. Know the things that are important to you and live true to those, because life will throw all sorts of things at you. You can't control what life throws at you. I mean, you can control the situations that you put yourself into sometimes, and sometimes you can't, actually.

But if you know what your values are, then actually that'll determine how you respond to all of these things that happen to you. It's amazing how many people don't, you know, they don't take that time to reflect and think, what's important to me? What are the things that. What are the no go zones for me? What are the things that I just wouldn't ever do? What are the things that I just find wrong and why do I find those things wrong? I think if everybody takes, you know, bit of time out to think about those, and then they live their life in accordance with those values, then actually they'll be happier because they'll know that, you know, underneath everything that's happening in their life, they have a driving sense of underlying purpose. And I think if people have a sense of purpose, it's coming back to that Nelson Mandela thing. Look at what he had to go through. But he knew what his purpose was, you know, he knew what was important to him, and so therefore kept going.

I think the people who lose their way often are people who don't have that sense of this is my purpose. I think if you do, you can get through an awful lot.

Great advice. Well, Chris, thank you so much for the time, and thanks for what you do for our country. I really appreciate it.

Thank you.

Cheers.

Very good.

Thank you.

What was the funniest thing about being Prime Minister? Oh, goodness me. The funniest thing about being Prime Minister? It didn't feel like there was a lot of time for a lot of funny things. Day to day, you get little funny things, but, I mean, I guess it's fun as opposed to funny. You know, I got to do some very fun things during the time that I was Prime Minister, so, you know, I got to go and watch the King's coronation up close, for example. So that was a lot of fun. And I think the other thing about being Prime Minister, and it probably falls into the funny category, is life's full of absurd situations. And as Prime Minister, you sometimes find yourself in those and you just have to laugh about them. Yeah.

What's the best part about being a dad? Best part about being a dad? You get to look at life through the eyes of someone new to the world. And so you get to see things with a whole different perspective than if you were just looking at them as an adult. I think we do sometimes become more cynical as we get older. Whereas when you become a dad and you're looking at the world through the eyes of a baby and you're thinking, what are they thinking? What are they seeing? How are they interpreting this? It just gives you a really refreshing view on life.

What was the first favorite subject at school?

I loved English. At school, I loved. I've always loved books, as you can tell by my bookcase over there. I love reading books. And my other favorite subject was history, because I love to understand why things are the way they are. And if you read history, so you read what's happened in the past, it helps you to understand the world that we live in now.

Yeah, that's cool. Eh?

Yeah.

What does a kid need to do to become the Prime Minister? Work hard. Make sure that you are.

Being a good person. So figure out what you think is important in the world. What are the things that really excite you? What's the change that you want to see in the world? And you know, anyone can become Prime Minister, but only a few people ever do. But if you know what the change is that you want to make in the world, if you get to be Prime Minister, you'll be very lucky. If you don't, you can still make a huge difference, though, if you know what it is that you want to see changed. Great advice.

What do you do for fun? What do I do for fun? I love to get outside. I love being outside. I like going for nice long bike rides. Not so much when it's raining. I like to garden and I like to do things like landscape gardening. So I like to do projects that I can look at at the end of it and go, I did that. I created that. Because then it just gives you a big sense of satisfaction.

Do you think we need Chris's help at home to landscape our back garden?

Yeah.

Last question. Is it? Yeah.

If you could have one super, what would it be? Oh, goodness me. One superpower. A photographic memory. I reckon that's a. And some people do have that. That's a superpower, but it's also a real superpower.

I have a photographic memory. Pretty good. You can remember everything. Yeah, that's. You're very lucky.

What do you say?

Thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you.

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