High Performance Teams with Phil Glasgow

Phil, a huge welcome to the Lead on Purpose podcast.

Hey, Jim. Super to be with you and really great to join you today.

Look, I'm so excited. It's the first time I've had a fellow Northern Irishman on the show.

Hey, it's good to connect with the Northern Irish diaspora and talk. Hopefully people can follow our accents. Okay. They're listening along.

I love it. Well, look, I just thought the knowledge that you have, the wisdom that you bring to the table and the level you perform at is just phenomenal. And for us to get a moment to share that space with you, I mean, we're all very fortunate. And the listener that's listening right now probably has pen in hand, ready to take some of those golden nuggets. So just to get the ball rolling, I'd love to ask you what comes to mind when you think of leadership.

Yeah, it's a good one, isn't it? Because in some sense, leadership's everywhere over the last few years, and there's loads of different things and different opinions and thoughts around what leadership is and people's views. But at a really basic level, I think when we talk about leadership, the first thing I think about is people. And it's really important because it's about taking a group of people forward towards a shared destination and enabling them and yourself to be the best you can be. And that ultimately, leadership is a function of that group, a thing that emerges as a consequence of being part of that group to help the group and yourself achieve something great. And for me, that's leadership. You can add on a lot of the other things about some of the skills or specifics around what helps you do that well, but at the fundamental place, it's about a group of people working together to do good things and someone helping to chart that course.

That's phenomenal. Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate it. And in your life, if we go to your personal life, say, as a young child or a young man growing up, where have you seen that? Have you seen that around you, whether it's at school or within the family or something that you've been a part of, where you've seen great leadership?

Yeah, I think sometimes, and I guess if I'd spoken to you 10, 20 years ago, James, I might have seen leadership as a title, a thing. Do you know that by virtue of you have a specific job or a role? But I think as I've reflected more and been involved in this space, I think then looking back at my life, you realize that leadership was in Lots of places. And really good leadership demonstrated it. I guess. First of all, in my homework, I think of my dad, a big, typical Northern Irish, quiet, big, quiet countryman who quietly led. But when he spoke, people listened. And so I think that that even remind me, and I often come back to the leadership is not in the volume of words, isn't it? It's about action and also making sure that when you say something, it's something that's worth listening to. So taking time to really listen. So I guess that was something some people say maybe I could learn from my dad more and I'd speak less. But that's something that I observed and was really quite striking and surprised me at times that whenever people would say, oh, my dad had said something that people really listened. And then you see certain people as you go through the school teach, you know, the. The ones who were really firm but fair. The guys who you didn't mess with, but you knew they were on your side, you know, that really stood out as examples. And you wanted to please. You want to do the best for who you wanted to. And actually they asked you to do stuff you followed versus the others who were command and control. And you know, let's. Let's face it, as a teenager in school, you rebelled against a little bit. So you see these examples of some of these themes through life and then working with some really great coaches over the years, even when I was playing sp born as a kid, great coaches and people you played with who. And I think as I'm talking to you, even a thing that just keeps coming out, is that.

How people led that I really respect and respond well to is their way of leadership was an embodiment of who they were. And it wasn't a performative thing or a thing that was about getting people to do what they wanted. It was actually about the good of the group. Which sort of guess brings me back to maybe how I would view leadership a little bit. Yeah, sure.

Yeah. There's a real congruence there between. Yeah. What you could see that leader, how they carried themselves, how they were inspiring others to carry themselves. And it was just so congruent the whole way.

Yeah, yeah. For.

For sure.

And then I guess then as. As you go through your life and career, as you interact with certain people, you see these traits show up time and time again. You know, with. With some great sports coaches or some great academic leaders or business leaders, there is that sense of the ability to connect with the individual but have some clarity and not be afraid to make Difficult calls, but also taking time to really understand being firm and fair. I think all of these things as I reflect, even just now as we chat, I can see that in people I'm working with right now who are good leaders and I see similar traits. But the other thing that even as we're talking that stands out on a couple of people, people who are really passionate about something was stands like they really care. You know, it matters. It's. It's not just a thing to do. And I think some of the, the best leaders that, that I've worked with and I've observed many of them are flawed like the rest of us. Like everyone is is, aren't they? So 100 this sort of like big perfect, everyone's got it thing. But, but in that it could because of their intent and the congruence and their passion for something that covers a multitude of that other stuff, doesn't it?

Of course, it really does. And in your current role. So if you don't mind, share a little bit more about where you're currently at working with and what's exciting about the leadership that you see within that.

Yeah. So I guess there's like many people in this space, a bit of a portfolio of things. But the largest component of what I do right now is working with Irish Rugby and I work across the whole system within Irish Rugby. So. So I guess as a bit of background, first of all, to place into context, I've worked in performance sport for many years and I started off working as a physio and clinically and then over 20 years worked into various leadership positions and that and also worked through some academic development. And then as I shifted away from the clinical component into how do you build a performance system to support performance really well. And so as we're working with Irish Rugby at the minute, it's about our performance support system. So I lead the performance support system performance program for Irish Rugby and it's how do we bring all of those, the team behind the team and the coaches together with the players in the service of performance. So performance sits at the middle and we're all wrapped around that. And so my job in that is I help develop the performance support program with our key pillars around that and then is to ensure that we get good alignment, good coordination of people working together, ensure we're clear what we're doing to identify good performance questions and lead that. So to build a system, a way of working that covers across all of the provinces and national teams. So that's a big chunk of What I do. And then the other side of it then is I work as an executive coach across a range of domains and do some stuff with healthcare, a lot of stuff in business, tech and support leaders and leadership development and really getting. Spending meaningful tax time with people to help them be the best they can be, you know, and, and through that whole coaching space. And the nice thing is I think those two sides of what I do massively complement each other. I'm still involved in some research and, you know, postgraduate research and sort of working with some PhD students so on as well. So I always like to have that thing around, evaluating what, why are we doing what we're doing, how can we make it better type thing in a structured way. So you'll say that's probably the combination of what I'm doing right now.

That's incredible how rewarding and great work that you're doing and such important work. And I think about that system. You talk about the performance system with Irish rugby. So obviously I'm sitting here in New Zealand, I've got a number of friends who play professional rugby and some of them for New Zealand. And there's a great admiration and there always has been, and I've been here 15, 16 years and there's a great admiration for what goes on in Ireland and the level of rugby and the level of professionalism. The depth that Ireland has really, particularly over the last five and six years, the depth is starting to show. So in terms of that, developing a performance system. So if there's somebody listening right now who runs a professional sports team or who runs an organization in a corporate setting, how would they go about approaching creating their own performance system?

Yeah. So I can share with you a little bit of the process of how we've gone about it, I think, is it. I think the first thing I'd say is that across Irish rugby, as there is in many other systems, whether they're sports teams or businesses, there's lots of really good people doing lots of really good work. And from time to time the secret sauce happens and you maybe work really well together and do something great. But the question is then, how do you make that the norm, the habitual thing? So I guess that was the same with Irish rugby. Lots of really good people wanting to be good. But how can we, you know, pull together and ensure that we're all aligned in the right way? So I pulled together a group with all of the heads of all the different areas together to really start to review and reflect on what have we done to date. Let's look at previous strategies, for example, let's look at the best examples within and outside of discipline and around the world. Can we see any key themes or key areas emerging that we think are really important? And so we identified five key pillars on that, which I can come back to. But then the key thing with this, and I think this was the really key bit around creating a program that was of the organization and that then had greater chance of success. What we did was pull together people from across the whole system, so every team, so all of the four provinces and national teams from every discipline, so whether that was a nutritionist, coach, whatever, and at every level. So, you know, a new relatively novice nutritionist, for example, and a head coach sitting. And we created subgroups and adopted a very intentionally a dialogic approach which was how can we get in and have a conversation? We had the group facilitators to facilitate good conversations and allowed the, around each of these core areas, all of that information to emerge. And then the job of facilitators was to identify where there was areas of convergence, where's their key points, can they probe with good questions to really get sort of from that, get our teeth into it. And I guess then in that what we find is that there's a real richness and what we found and if we start talking about getting that cognitive diversity in the room, so we're really getting from every area. So our five pillars were body, mind, people, place and research and innovation. And so how can you do those things really well? And then from that, I guess my job then was to synthesize all of that information back together and then create, you know, so what are some of the big themes? So there's common themes coming from everyone around how we do things. But then what would that look like then if we put flesh on the boat, you know, to try and live it and then create a, rather than a strategy or a, or a specific linear process to say, okay, we're not rather what we do, how do we do it then? Now, what does this mean when we live it out along with specific tactics? So I think that's a very long answer, James, but in that what it says, take time to understand what are some of the things that seem to be important for you in your area? You know, so for us, with body, mind, people place, research, innovation, then engage with the group with get that cognitive diversity. Don't go in with an agenda, but allow the information to come and facilitate it with good dialogue allowed to emerge. Look for trends and convergences and similarities, identify those and build a system around that. Because then when you present it, people go, yeah, I recognize that because it's ours. And so as you try to develop a system, it's the system of the group rather than one person saying, I've looked at everything, this is what I think you've got to do. Which are two very different things. So that was a very long winded answer there.

That was beautiful. And really thank you for sharing that. And I truly believe that really good self evaluation is the seed of self mastery and really evaluating on those pillars. So if we took those pillars, what does that look like in terms of going back and revisiting and measuring oneself or the organization against those pillars?

Yeah, and it's a really good point and I would agree with you. You know, it's, you know, the, the better we know ourselves and can reflect on that and learn to pay attention to what's important. So we learn what, what are the things that we got to give our attention to and the things that actually we think might be important but aren't so important, if you like. And so when in going back into that, then thinking around those pillars, what we did was identified. We asked each of the subgroups as we went through that to identify key recommendations or key tactics to start to develop. What we wanted to develop and embedded in that was, you know, for, let's take something really straightforward like the body part. Body isn't straightforward, but you know, so you know, what is a world class rugby player look like? You know, so we've got that now. How do we develop world class rugby players?

What systems required to provide? That's things like do we have a line clear performance program planning for each player with clear physical outcomes that we want them to achieve. And targets, have we got an integrated approach between national and provincial staff there? And so when we reflect back we'll say, well, let's see this person's plan. What are their targets? How are we monitoring their progress over time? And is there clear integration between national and provincial teams as a way of reflecting where we are? And if there isn't, well, why is that? Is there a very good reason for that? What's going on? So that's a really simple example, but then you just gotta expand those principles and apply it into each of the other areas too.

Fantastic. And what are some of the greatest challenges and obstacles with such a massive system?

Hey.

I think the biggest challenge is always going well. Two big challenges immediately spring to mind. But for me the biggest challenge is, is not People's intent or.

Recognizing saying, yeah, this is important. We got to do it, because everyone will listen to that. We talk with, yeah, let's do that. That's, that's great. The challenge is always the busyness of performance and when we get caught up in the doing of stuff day in, day out. And so inevitably, when the pressure comes on. And this applies outside of sport too, clearly, business life, generally, when you've got a game next weekend and you're busy, it's head down and do the thing that's in front of you and the ability then to lift your head up and get out of the weeds and see what we need to do and think, is there a better way of doing this? Can I connect with other people more effectively? Because most people will revert to their area or their domain or their lane and do it really well. And so actually getting people to stop, lift their heads up, connect with the wider group and say, can we do something collectively? Becomes a challenge. Not because they don't think that's important, but because of the sheer, just pressure and busyness of life. So my role is often about being really intentional, about creating those opportunities to ensure we get alignment and coordination. I think, I think for me, that's the, the first thing, and then the second thing, then that that comes in. It's just, you know, people, isn't it? You know, you know, people with different views, different opinions, different priorities, and then working with people to. To say that this, to get collective ownership and purpose around. This is what's important and this is why we want to do it. And so for me, those are the, the two things. Helping people lift their head up and see the wood for the trees and recognize that we're better when we were collectively and then is just the interpersonal component of getting everyone on the same page and getting consensus and getting alignment. Creating a safe space for people to really give their opinion and contribution.

Amazing. Seriously amazing. And I think about this performance system, and I guess one thing that springs to mind is for you, what does success actually look like? If that system of high performance was to just be in high gear, what would success look like?

Yeah, that's a great question, James. And I think it's a great question to often ask yourself at times, isn't it, you know, what success look like for me right now, or what does success look like for, say, us as a system or for any of us? For me.

This is what it looks like for me. And again, hopefully not too long winded an answer. There are three big Things that I think I would see if this is working well, I always think when we're answering questions, what would you see? What would people be doing? What would it feel like? So, which is very different to will win a World Cup. Yeah. Or we'll do that. Because if it's a reductionist thing to that you lose. The essence of what is the winning the matches is the outcome, not what, what the program is there to help develop and increase your chances of winning major tournaments. So as a bit of a preface to that. But what I would say, I would see people who are well connected, they're connected with each other. They look and say they realize that they can't be good on their own. Yeah. Number one for me, it's impossible to be great on your own. Absolutely believe that. And so it's about the collective. So people start looking at things in the sense they talk more about we than I. They say, what can we do? Rather what can I do? So we start to see this sense of identity of the collective. Number one, I think then what it is, it's that it's very action and performance oriented. So it's, it's not that we're here having a great time together as a bunch of buddies and that's all good and we stop there, but it's actually now what can we do? And then we're clear on what good looks like. We're clear on what it takes to win and how do we do that together. So our activity is driven by performance rather than my preference or the things that I enjoy doing. Yeah. And then what we do, I think the third piece that fits really nicely with that then is then how do we continue to get better and improve together? So let's reflect, learn, adapt, review. And how can I then push things forward and learn from each other so we get the good quality of conversations, which is about constantly making ourselves better. So for me, those three things is what you see. If it's working well, we're connected. We think about ourselves as a we rather than I, a collective. We're. We're then doing that and using our collective energy to achieve great things together and deliver stuff. And our activity is driven by performance on our collective goals rather than an individual one. And then we have a mutual working together to review, reflect, to get better. I think that's what it looks like when it's good.

That's fantastic. And a couple of things as you shared, that really resonated with me and the whole idea of focusing on the root, not the fruit and you talked about, hey, you know, it's not about winning the World Cup. It's, you know, that's the fruit. That's the fruit there.

That's the World Cup.

But the root is focusing on process, focusing on culture, focusing on people, focusing on behavior, skill sets, mindsets. And that came across really strong in what you just shared. And the other thing that came across is like a part of that process of focusing on the root is this continuous commitment to mastery. So I'd love to explore, if you're up for it. Let's talk about.

Yeah, you make. Anyone who knows me knows that that's when we start talking about mastery. That's something I love talking about. You know, I've always been. I've been fascinated by it all my life. I really have. Where did that start?

Actually tell you where it started. And it's. It's interesting. So you'll maybe see behind me, you probably see part of the thing written on the wall. Seamus Heaney, who. Who grew up just a handful of miles away. So Nobel laureate poet from Northern Ireland grew up a handful of miles from where I grew up. And, you know, you studied poetry at school and everything. But there's a. There's a famous poem of his called Digging, okay. And there's a line in it. You know, it talks about. You know, he describes his father digging, okay, And. And there's this line where he's, you know, of how the. His father's digging and says, by God, the old man could handle a spade. Is it one of the lines in the poem? And then it finishes with the quote that's actually on the wall behind me. It says, between my finger and thumb, the snug playing rests, I'll dig with it. Yeah. And growing up, I'm a country boy. And I can remember years ago when I was a kid growing up and my dad was out digging. So, you know, I really identified with a lot of that poetry. But my dad was digging. I can remember digging as well and really struggling, James, like, really hard. What is going on? I look at him, and it's effortless. You know, it's. It's like poetry, emotion. But I remember my dad saying, you know, hold the spade like this. You know, apply the pressure to the log of the spade in this way. And actually, as I started to put into practice, as he taught me, I went, oh, hang on. There's an easier way to do something. When you get taught to do something, there's a skill. And I see when you learn and master this Thing. This thing then goes from feeling like work to feeling like something that is easier and there's smooth and there's a beauty to it. And so I can remember that being quite impactful for me. And that, if you like, then is. Is the matter of my life. I was like, I'm not digging, but what do I have in my hand? I love this pen that sets my hand snug as a gun. I'll dig with that. And he. He dug with that, you know, and he could handle that pen. Yeah. In the sense that he became a Nobel laureate. And so that idea of taking time to really understand what you're doing, to become a student of your craft, to constantly go, I think, in a dialogue with your environment and the tools and the materials that you're using to understand and say, how can I become really good at this? Who do I need to listen to? How can I get better at that? And so that is something that just really resonates with me. And so when I see people who are good at what they do, I want to say, well, what do they do? I love to watch them. Whether that's a craftsman making something, whether it's.

Someone making cocktails and throwing things around, you know, that you. You see, whether it's a sports person or a leader, when you see people who've taken time to really master their craft, we'll walk us in down. How do you. How do you begin? And for me, how do you begin to understand that? And then you realize, I guess, coming full circle back to, you know, that idea of the day, and you realize that the spade became an extension of the person. And so the thing that you do becomes an extension of who you are, but it doesn't define what you are.

I love that. I seriously think that's so powerful, what you just shared. And a couple of things came to mind as you shared. That one was, you know, a musician. Sometimes you'll see a musician play, and you'll be like, whoa, that instrument is part of their body. And when they're playing, it's like they are one with the instrument. It's an extension. Same with a great athlete. You know, Serena Williams, she's like, that tennis racket belongs in her arm.

Absolutely. Yeah. That's a really. That's a really great thing to sort of spotlight there, James. I think, you know, the musician and Serena Williams, you think. Think of those as a good example. Then what that does, it gives them an ability to express something of who they are and to interact with the world in a Different way that they wouldn't have been able to do before the other thing. And I'm doing a project at the moment with Professor Seamus Kelly from University College in Dublin, and then also Professor Sean Dorrance Kelly. There are no relations who's Dana Philosophy at Harvard. And we're looking at the phenomenology of high performance environments and that idea of what it means to be really good at things. And these guys have looked a lot around Heidegger and mastery and craft and so on. But there's one thing that. That, you know, Sean would. Would often say is that when. When you become a master in something said, the world reveals itself to you in a different way. So what I'm saying is Serena Williams sees stuff on a court, on a tennis, when she's playing, she sees that whole experience in a different way than I will. She feels different things from the head of her racket than I ever could. Because become more attuned to your environment and are able to pick up on the little subtleties. And then that enables you to interact and express yourself in a very different way.

That's incredible. And I mean, I can relate to that from a musical standpoint. You know, being a young drummer in Northern Ireland and learning what that was about and playing with bagpipers and figuring out all these basics, then to a point where you're doing it for years, you're mastering skills to the point where you're thinking of the smallest of dynamic articulations and how that feels and how that comes across. It's very, very much a journey of mastery.

One of my favorite quotes, I really like this. There was an Austrian pianist in the last century called Arthur Schnabel, and he was famed for his performances.

And it was asked about, you know, what was at the heart of his ability to perform in that way. And it's great. His response was, the notes I handle like anyone else, he said, but the spaces between the notes, that's where the magic lies. Wow.

That's.

How good is that?

And so for me, it's learning to pay attention to the spaces between the notes because everybody's got the same notes. But he. How do you put them together in a way that then creates something in the whole that is more than just the sum of the notes?

100%. And that's what. When you share that with me, Phil, I know I've listened to you speak. And for the listener that's listening right now, I know they'll be really loving what they're hearing. But I would Urge them also to go and check out your website. I will put a link in the show notes and check out some of your public speaking performances. You're a real orator and the space that you put in between your notes, in between the words that you use, it's so powerful. And I feel like as a person listening to what you have to say, you make such an impression not only because of the words you use, but because of the space. So it's interesting that you bring that quote to the conversation today.

You're very kind to say that firstly, but I appreciate that. And I guess.

It'S like anyone who's good, if you think of great sports people, great rugby players or, or musicians, artists, you know, they, they, they learn to pay attention. There was a, there was a great article last year in the Sunday Times, you know, the UK Sunday Times magazine and.

You had Hockney, you know, the, the artist who's in his 80s, lives in, in France. And the, the title of, you know, that was on the. In the magazine and it was a dry Copenhagen. And you notice more with each year. I thought, isn't that great? And as he described it, why he was continuing to paint in his 80s and producing some great work. He said as he continues to paint, he notices new things and little things, noticing more with each year. And I think that then the way to become really good at anything, I believe in terms of, to master is learning to pay attention to the things that are important to the really good things. And, and as, as we reflect and we think well, what's important here? And, and we learn that sometimes I think wisdom is the ability to know what to overlook, you know, what's not important. And if you indulge me kind of, I'll tell a story about a research we did a few. So a few years ago in Ulster University, Visiting professor, there was some research we did at Ulster looking at golf coaches. So we've got some good golfers from our part of the world. That's right, yeah. So, but we. There was some research looking not so much at the golfers but at the golf coaches. And we looked at expert golf coaches and novice golf coaches and use some eye tracker software to look at what the coaches were looking at and recorded at what the coaches were, the feedback that they were giving to the golfers. So what we saw with the novice coaches is they looked at lots of different things, their eyes looked at lots of points and they gave lots of feedback and lots of instruction. We took the expert coaches and they looked at fewer things and they looked at them for longer so they knew what to pay attention to. And in their feedback they gave very simple, very short, clear advice around one thing. And so the expert coaches looked a fewer things, you knew what to pay attention to and their instruction was clearer and less sort of dispersed. Whereas the novice guys were looking at lots of things and giving lots of information. And you know, that resonates with me and my own journey and what you observe often. You know, we think we've got to, we gotta win an overcoach. We've got to change everything, We've got to look at everything. And for me it's learning what to pay attention to and then saying, how can I change the important things?

Oh, that's gold. And it's interesting, as you explained the novice coach and the expert coach, I almost in my mind caught the novice coach. I started thinking of them as a consultant, like, I'm here to solve it. I've got all the answers. Like, just listen to me. So true versus the coach, the expert.

Asking one question rather than giving you the feedback, maybe just asking you one question that really gets you to think about one specific aspect.

Yeah. And that's. If we think then, you know, of coaching in its broadest sense, whether that is in a sports coaching or whether, whether it's executive or personal coaching, actually what you find is that it's the same there, isn't it? It's people who pay attention, they listen to what you're saying then and they start to say, oh, I think this is the important space. Let's probe there a little bit more. Here's where the changes are. And actually listening more and saying less, I think is the hallmark of many great coaches.

Yeah, yeah, I'm with you on that. And you know, Sir Steve Hanson, formerly with the All Blacks, great example, wouldn't say much, but when he did, you know, he was focused on some really key metric. Marty, who's running the Canterbury Rugby here in Christchurch at the minute same thing where it won't say lots and lots and lots of things, but we'll focus on some real key metrics. And when he does speak, you know, there's real power to it. So, yeah, I absolutely am resonating with that 100%.

Yeah, it's. And you know, that's a, it's not a bad approach to life generally, isn't it? You know, to take time, really pay attention. There's, there's another quote I, I can't remember who said. I think it was William James. I'm not sure. In a book in the late 19th century. Who, who said. No, this is 19th. Late 19th century, which is amazing. You know, he said our experience of the world is what we agree to give our attention to.

And so.

We live in a. More than ever. Do you know, I don't want to sound like the old guy here, you know, but more than ever, there's so many things vying for our attention, you know, our phones and people and so on. And so what I choose to give my attention to will determine my experience of life, and it'll also determine my ability to get really good at anything and how I react and interact with the world or how I am in the world. And so that's thing about to think about where we're giving our attention to what's important here and taking a little bit of time and then what's, what's our, you know, so as I reflect, what's my experience, my life been in the last year? What's experience, my growth been? Well, where have I been addressed putting my attention? And I think it's a nice way to reflect in terms of keeping our attention focused when we need to and then opening wide to maybe get new exposures in the right things at the right time. I think that thing around how we give our attention.

Is really key.

Yeah. And I really feel like your actions always reflect your priorities. No matter what you say, it's what you do and where you're placing your attention and your focus and your time, that's really where your priorities are, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that's the, that's the import of that statement. That's, it's, it's a really good way to put it is that, you know, because I'm giving my attention there, that's the thing that I prioritize, and that's how I'll be in the world, if you like. And, and so, you know, to me, then if we want to change how we are in the world, the place to start is we change what we give our attention to.

Yeah, that's so powerful. And in terms of the concept of mastery, so for the person that's listening right now, they could be applying that to. If they're an athlete, they could be applying it there. If they're a leader in a business, that could be applying it there. But where else can mastery show up in your life?

Yeah, I'm very much of, of the thought that mastery is almost a way of being rather than that. So for me, it shows up in every and everything, whether that is parenting, whether it's in some projects that you're trying to do around the home, you know, that you're trying to master, to do that well. But also then in, you know, in our, in our work, in how we interact perhaps with people that you're managing or coaching, you know, really pay attention. How can I get. Get good at this and reflect. And I think some of the things that we see. So there's. There's a few different models that talk about mastery. One that I like to, to look at and use and that Sean Dorrance Kelly had mentioned it from, from Harvard that we work with. His mentor was Hubert Dreyfus and who had written sort of famously the Dreyfus model of skill acquisition or mastery expertise. And so influenced by that. And the Dreyfus model is really quite nice. I like it. I wouldn't say it's the only model there, but it's, it's really nice. But some of the things that they describe looking at people like chess grandmasters or jazz musicians or, or chefs or artists and so on, people who master things and there's they. They describe the traits of people as they move through. There's five stages to get to. To mastery. So they really recommend. It's a model for people if they want to follow up and read. You know, as you go through the different sort of novice to, you know, to beginner through to developing expert right into sort of expert or master level. But what we see in people that I'm at a mastery level is they're able. Sorry, if we started this beginning. People tend to start when they're beginning obvious and obviously they follow rules and checklists. And if I see this, I do that. Yeah. And you can think by the time you get to mastery, people will just look at it and they'll, they'll go, yeah, I can see and I recognize and I can feel it. And I know this is what I need to do and how I need to respond. And so it's. They see the big picture beyond the big picture, if you like. They see the broader context and they're able to. And this is really key. They're able to reflect in, on and for action. So before they do it, they're reflecting on what have I seen before? What am I seeing now? And when they're doing it. And actually in the act of doing what they're doing, they're able to say is how's this working for me? Do I need to change it? So they can reflect in the moment of actually doing it? And then afterwards there's a constant cycle of reflection. How did that work for me? What, what can I change? How can I use that information to help get better? And then it becomes something that they care deeply is the other big thing around experts. They care deeply about wanting to be good. So for me, it's impossible to be good at something you don't care about.

And, and so that's how that shows up in life. So something you care about and something then that you really want to think about getting better. And that, that adds to, to your, to your life and becomes a positive thing. And you're not following sort of this checklist or rules all the time, but you're seeing the bigger context. I think that's the source and the seed of mastery. And that can be applied in any context.

Yeah, I love that. It's interesting, I go back to, say a performance as a musician when I was younger, and sometimes you'd have seven and a half thousand notes that you'd play in about a four or five minute period and various dynamic articulations, various tempos, time, space, crescendo, diminuendo, time signature, tempo change. So as I got better at that and developed the technical skills, I was then able to detach a little bit from the performance. And as you mentioned, I didn't know, I didn't know the details of this, but relating it to my experience, I was able to play a Swiss rough, which is like four notes very quickly, but it's very detailed. And as I'm planning it, I'm like, oh, there's a bit of tightness in my right hand there. Okay, I've got to. I can just micro adjust before that fourth note. And it's happening in a millisecond. But I'm first learning the Swiss rough. You know, it's, it's very monotonous. It takes time, it's so laborious. And then after, right after the performance, there's this hot debrief like, like, oh, that's what's rough in the fourth part of that tune. And yeah, so all the things that you said, I was like, yep, that makes sense.

Yeah, no, that's brilliant. That is such a great example there of, for me, that articulates it really perfectly. And it is, it's amazing to think that you can almost have that perspective in the doing of something that for the novice doing, it's like, know, how do I even make sure I'm holding that stick in the right way? But when you get to that stage, you're feeling things that somebody else just can't feel, you know, and you're. You're able to attend to stuff and respond in a way that other people can't. And when, when you, if you try to describe what you're doing, it almost is impossible to really describe it because then you break it down to constituent parts. And one of the quotes or things that I like and is. Is probably perhaps often misquoted or maybe it's a slightly different quote. I don't know if it's a misquote or they're just two separate things. Is. You know, a lot of coaching use a lot of gestalt type of approach to, with, with coaching. But the, the famous sort of gestalt statement where, you know, it's. And we often hear, you know, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Yeah. But actually if we go to gestalt, what. What. What they say is the whole is something altogether different to the sum of the parts. Because when we put it all together, we create this thing that is completely different to that because if we just put all the parts together, it's not that it gives us something more, it gives us something altogether different. So the example I like to use in that is, you know, if I take some milk, some flour and some eggs, you know, I can make a pancake. Yeah. The pancake is not more than the sum of the parts. It's something completely different too. Yeah. And I can't extract the parts from it. It's punk. Yeah.

Such a great way to look at it, you know.

And so when we put it all together, that performance of what you do is not just the sticking together of a lot of notes. It's. It becomes a thing in all of itself. I would actually argue that leadership is. That leadership is not all of these skills just where you, you know, communication skills, which are important, like, so all the skills are important. Let, let's be clear or. And you know, persuasion skills, coaching skills, thinking skills, strategic thinking. All of you, inventory of leadership skills that we see over and over again. But being a good leader is not just putting those all together. It's something altogether different where you draw on those things in the moment to create something that's different. And if you try to reduce it to that, it ceases to be what it is. And your performance would cease to be a performance if you just reduced it to those things. So it's not more than. It's something altogether different.

But that's so powerful. The whole idea of the pancake Is when you look at the key constituent ingredients, you like, like they look nothing like what the end product looks like.

There's no.

Yeah, for sure. And, and so, you know, and so human beings, you know, we're pancakes, you know, if you like to really hammer the metaphor of it. But, but you can, you can see that we're not all of those constituent parts. We're something altogether different, you know, and you can't, you can't separate them out. And this, the minute you start separating out the parts, it ceases to be that. Yeah, you can't, you can't take it out of its. The context and the moment and in the world, in the time. And that's what that reductionist linear approach to a lot of research and I think a lot of skill development often does that. Now at the beginning you've got to make sure you got all those parts really. You've got good quality ingredients, for sure. And you think of the sports person, they can have lots of individual skills. They can pass a ball well, they can, they can tackle well, whatever that might be. But what makes them a good player is their ability to put all that together in the moment, on the pitch.

In the game, isn't it 100% every single time. And something I wanted to touch on as well a little bit was just around the whole role that mindset plays in performance and just what you take on the level of importance working on mindset at the high performance level. Where does that sit with you?

Yeah, I think, you know, everybody, I say, I've said everybody there, but a lot, most people, and a lot of people be very familiar with, you know, Carl Dweck's book, the Mind's Famous Mindset Book of, you know, a growth mindset versus, you know, that sort of fixed mindset. And I think that's, that's a, it's a super book. People haven't read it. It's a, it's a really superbook to that that she then takes examples from a really wide range of things in life. But she uses a lot of sport examples and she is that the idea is I'm not good at this. I'm someone who hasn't got the ability to get better at stuff or I'm just not that good at tackling, therefore I'm going to get stuck and be fixed in this space. Whereas we think, well, here's an area that I'm maybe not as good at, so here's an opportunity for growth for me to get better. And so what do I need to how do I respond to this challenge? And so I think she synthesized a lot of really good research and articulated really nicely that then I think it's slightly different to a performance mindset, but is a really important constituent part of a performance mindset is that. And I think the first thing is that everything is an opportunity to get better. Everything you do. I think performance mindset for me is, okay, how can I be better today? How can we be better collectively? And I think the decision, and it almost goes back to what we were chatting earlier on, is when you're really clear what is performance? What does good look like? We've got to shared understanding of that and that then all of my actions and everything I give my attention to is about making that better. And so performance mindset for me then is one that we're constantly looking to improve all the time, not simply just to go out and perform, but in order to achieve that purpose that we're there for collectively. And so that then if, if that's a starting point that percolates down to everything we do. And I think a performance mindset then is how can we make our environment better? How can we improve our changing rooms? How can we, you know, how can we structure our day in a better way? What about our own interactions with my teammates? What about me then? How can I be better at the specific skills and the role I play within the team? How can I help other people get better? You know, so you, you start to see a performance mindset infiltrates everything. Whereas I think some people at times, I've heard this idea that a performance mindset is about being super focused just on yourself. And it's about working really hard and, and doing extra, extra hours in the, in the gym or on the park or whatever. That, that can absolutely be part of it. But for me, a proper performance method is seeing performance what it is, which is of the collective of an awful group. And then if we do that, we recognize that, you know, we're all. Or I touched on this earlier, that means the whole team, we're all there in service of performance.

And so hopefully I'm not going off and too far ahead. Stop me if this is great.

So I, I can. I worked through the UK Olympic sport system for.

14 years. And you know, I was involved in the leadership group through Rio 2016 with Team GB there. And, and we, you know, that group we set up, I started working on like 2002. Long time, 20 years, my goodness, 20 years ago on that. And we were trying to set up systems which didn't exist before and in, in those days and I still, I think still happen and, and I understand why. And this could easily be taken out of context. So hopefully it won't be. Is that it was okay, we're all here. You put the at in the center. Yeah. And then we're all around the athlete in order to help the athlete perform. I actually think it is, it's different than that. I think performance is in the center. And then we work with the athlete, supporting them collectively as a group, as a team in service of performance. And the athletes want to execute that performance at the moment. But it's not that we're doing stuff to or for the athlete, we're doing something with the athlete. They're part of the team, they're side by side working together for this thing which is performance. And then so that changes every interaction. Does that make sense?

Oh, that's mind blowing for me. So I think that all too often we put people on a pedestal and how dangerous that can be for the individuals. But how about we put performance on the pedestal that's just so healthy, that's so measurable. We can all collectively, as you say, hand in hand, work together to create the best possible optimal performance rather than put the person on the pedestal.

Yeah, that's so good, such a good point. Because at times then you know, that's a tough place to be when people are on that pedestal, isn't it?

I remember a few years ago and I'll say, well, good deal. But you know, Bono Mewtwo is obviously Irish and he, we were, I was in camp with the Irish rugby team and Bono was in camp, you know, to talk to the team and do stuff. Really cool, really great to listen to and very wise guy, really reflective, really super. But there was one thing that he said, but there's loads of things that he said that really stuck with me. But one of the things that he said is that he said that no, it's not that we are great. First thing he said was I can't be great on my own, you know, because we need, it's the, it's the band and he'd be all the guys, you know, there in order for us to be really. And he said it's not that we're great. But he said but from time to time we access greatness. I thought, oh that that's good. And actually when you look at that, that's it. That's almost like an ancient Greek idea. It wasn't that there are these people who were great, but you had this opportunity to access greatness. So for me, a performance mindset is not about this thing where you put this person unnecessarily so they're great on a pedestal, but collectively, we, as a group. Group. Enable that person to access greatness. That's really powerful. Really different, isn't it?

Yeah, I love it. I'm great that. But you can tie Bono into that as a bit of a conduit, a bit of inspiration there.

Yeah. And. And so for him then he said, well, then, you know, when we perform.

At a concert, from time to time, you get those moments where we. In that moment, we do great things, but it doesn't mean, like, the next day, whenever we're going around our normal business, that we're great. Yeah. You know, which I think is good because it's healthy. We're not putting these guys on pedestals so that whenever they're not great all the time, or they don't have to carry that burden, or none of us have to carry that burden, I don't feel the pressure to have to be great. But I can say, can we together do great things? Sometimes that's very different. Very.

And very achievable. And very much a collective focus rather than an individualistic approach.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And. And then, you know, that's the. It comes back to the old Ubuntu saying. Yeah, isn't it? You know, I am is who we are. A person is a person through other persons. As Desmond Tutu said, that idea is. It's off the collective. And. And I can only be great in the context of who we are. Then. Now that starts to change. That's much healthier, I think.

Enable. Recognize that at times it'll. It'll. It'll ebb and flow. And, hey, that's the joy of sport. And, you know, anybody. I'm not a good golfer, but, you know, sometimes with some of the things that can be so frustrating, but, you know, if you hit a really sweet shot, it's great, but the next shot can be, if you're with me, really terrible, you know?

Yeah.

Oh, I know that you do it for the really great shot, don't you? 100 time I go, oh, oh, that was great. Now I don't. All of a sudden, everything changes because my next shot's terrible. That's the point. We're in pursuit of. We getting more great shots each time. And that's. That's. To me, the performance mindset is about. I'm in pursuit of doing more Great shots every time.

Yeah, I love that. I love that you're bringing Ubuntu into it as well. So I'm a big fan of Nelson Mandela and obviously that became a big part of what him and Desmond Tutu were worked towards. And, and it's interesting. A former all black player of Pacific island descent was asked, hey, what's your purpose? And he went, oh, that feels weird to me.

What feels weird? What's your purpose? He says, I don't have a purpose. For me, I've never thought about my purpose in the world. It's about what's right for my family, my tribe, my team, me. He's like, I just. I fear that I've got something to contribute. My. My passion and my purpose is to just contribute to the greater good. He's like, this is not about me. And I thought that was really cool that the idea of personal purpose, which there's so many books written on. What is your purpose on this planet?

Yeah, you remind me as you talk and hopefully not going to left field here. So. So if we think of. Of a. Broader concepts of things, as.

I'm hesitating because hopefully it's. It. Yeah. Hell be candid and open. So if we think of areas like that, broader sense, what it, what it means to be human and live well in the world, you know, is. And because that's. I think that's all wrapped up in this too, about the whole idea of purpose and passion and why we're here and what we do is then what I like to think is there's, there's my story, there's our story, and there's the story.

And this guy, Richard Rohr, who's read a lot of stuff, he talks about, it's like, you know, an egg or I think more of like a Russian babushka doll, you know, so. So my story's here, but it's always. It's always going to be encapsulated in our story. Yeah. Because it's never independent, but actually that then it sits within the story, the big story. And so there is no my story without our story, or there's no our story without the story. And so if I just focus on this one little thing in the center, I lose sight of the big picture stuff, if that makes sense. And so as I. I can only fully express who I am in the context of how I relate to our story and the story. And I think that's what, as you said, the, the player that you described from, you know, Pacific island heritage was describing is that his story was so caught up in the story and our story that it was indistinguishable from. And I think that's a much healthier way to be in the world because we, if we. I don't have the gravity to support the orbit of the world around me.

It's like it's, it's not about me, but it can be about us. It can't be about the big picture stuff. And so how do I contribute to them? What's my role? What my little part of my story, how does that contribute to the bigger, bigger story? Yeah, we can do that.

Phil, where you just took that I just think is a beautiful place. And I think there's so much for the listener to take from that really simple way that the babushka doll is the perfect way to explain that. And I can see that playing out at home in the family setting where sometimes as a 15 or 16 year old, it is literally all about me. Right. Other places on the sports field, other places in the corporate setting. I mean that to me is just so powerful. The thought of there's the, there's the me, the us, the story that's, that's really, I really appreciate that.

That's a great share. Yeah. And, and one of the things then I say often I would do, particularly around some of my coaching practice or supporting some companies on and around how we make decisions. I'll say, you know, so therefore, you know what's a good decision to hear A good decision is one that's good for me, for you, you and for the project or the company. Not all, not, not one of these things. So, so if we think so, then that isn't that good. Because then if it's, it's. Sometimes people are forced to make decisions that are just good for the company and then I'm, I'm not a. I'm coming out the wrong side of it or it's good for the other person. But actually if we can use real wisdom, if you like, around what's good for me, what's good for you and what's good for us or the company or the project or both, then I think we start to make better decisions. And it's what. This has been a really wide ranging conversation, but it's what Aristotle used the term phronesis and it's common term in ancient Greek in terms of phronesis. And it's that ability to deliberate well and have practical wisdom and to make decisions for ethamonia is like was the Greek word about the human flourishing of all of us having to live a good life. He said sometimes though, that meant you have to do things that were challenging and difficult. But the phronesis resulted in things that were good for the greater good. That Ethelmania, the Greek word is really big. So that idea is how can I deliberate? Well, how can I make good decisions? How can I then ground it in the real world? And then it becomes more about me and more about. The Greek term is human flourishing, which is warned up with my flourishing.

That's really powerful. I love that you're bringing all that into it and you're very well read and the way that you're able to articulate it means someone who hasn't read up on this, I can really deeply understand it. I'm sure the listeners feeling the same way. So Phil, that's honestly a real talent to be able to take the wisdom that you have and to really apply it to our modern, chaotic, full on world.

It's a bit random. Brilliant.

I think us humans are random. So it's, it's perfect. It's amazing.

No, it's. It's been good.

I'm just so grateful that we've had this opportunity. I don't feel like this is the last time we're going to speak. I feel like there's lots more conversations to come in the future.

Yeah, no, I enjoy it. Listen, I really enjoy chatting and I guess like all good conversations, they take paths that you don't always.

Anticipate, but absolutely enjoy.

No, I've thoroughly enjoyed it. And I've got one. Just one last question if you don't mind, before we wrap up for sure. If we were to fast forward to the end of your life and we're hoping that's many years in the future and it's your last day, in fact, it's your last five minutes. And a very young person in your life comes up to you, who's very dear to you, it could be a grandchild or a great grandchild and says, hey Phil, or hey Granddad, how can I lead my life with purpose? What advice would you have for them?

A great question. It's nothing putting someone on the spot.

I guess for me, when you were speaking, there are two big things immediately just come into mind. So I'll go with what came to me as, as you said though I think firstly, life is first and foremost about people. Make it about people.

Rather than about a thing. Because, you know, it's in, in the collective people, we do things and then in that space, then to say.

As you encounter your life and in every day or in everything you do say, how can I be useful in this space? And if we can finish our life, if you like, in that sense of going, it's been about people and enriched other people and I've been useful, then you'll have lived a good life. I absolutely believe that.

That's just beautiful advice. That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that.

Really.

I really appreciate opening up and sharing that with us.

No, pleasure. Pleasure and no, it's been great. Really enjoy it. Super question. I'll probably reflect and have a much better question about our time, you know.

Well, I look forward to reconnecting again and if we don't, I don't get to connect before the big shindig there in October of the World cup next year, you know, best of luck. And obviously I live in New Zealand, I'm a Kiwi now. But the other half of my heart's in Northern Ireland and Ireland. So I'll just be shouting for both teams to play to their absolute best.

Yeah, let's leave it. Hopefully we don't meet in the quarter final again. We can leave it for later on would be the best thing for sure. Yeah, definitely.

Hey, Phil, thank you so much and I look forward to connecting again with you soon.

Pleasure. Talk to you soon. Thanks, James.

Hey, guys, if you enjoyed the content today, please smash that subscribe button below. And if you want to become part of my community, I've got an amazing free Facebook group, please come and join us. The link is in the description below. And also if you've got any questions about today's session, I'd love to know. Just comment below and I'll be sure to get back to you guys. Have the most amazing day.