How Naomi Ballantyne Became NZ’s First Billion Dollar Female Founder

You're about to sit down and have a masterclass with the first female founder from New Zealand to sell her startup business for more than a billion dollars. That's right. Naomi Ballantyne is going to give you all the insights, tips and tactics to build wealth, to build great relationships, to build a business. Whatever you're trying to get better at in your life, the way that Naomi thinks, I promise you, will help you in any of those areas. She's deeply humble and deeply giving of her wisdom. So please sit back and enjoy the show. The Lead On Purpose podcast is sponsored by NZ Mortgages. Learn more at nzmortgages.co nz. Naomi, a huge welcome to the Lead On Purpose podcast.

Thank you.

I'm so glad to sit down with you.

That's exciting.

Now, this is actually, I think, the first guest, I'm trying to think back, the first guest ever that shares a very common hobby that we both played. So pipe and drummers. We're both pipe and drummers.

We are. Although I have a little less claim to fame in terms of awards and world champs and stuff. And also my drum's bigger than your one.

You win. Oh, I love it. And we'll probably not get down to talking too much pipe, but, I mean, you have way more to talk about in terms of entrepreneur ism. Being an entrepreneur, growing an incredible business, being committed to that for decades. This was not a start overnight, sell it next week. This was a life commitment. So I'd love to just talk a little bit about influence. And I believe that leaders have influence over themselves and others, but it often starts from when we're kids. So when you look at someone who's sold a business for a billion dollars, you often go, well, they were born into it, they were handed it, it was gifted to them. But often that's not the case. So can you tell me a little bit about your childhood, who Mum and Dad were and what your perception of money was? A youngster.

Yeah, it's really interesting. I don't think, other than not having any money, money was ever, ever discussed. We just knew as kids that we were. Mum and dad were always broke. Dad worked, but had a major alcohol problem. So a. A lot of money went towards, you know, lime breweries. But also he was often sick, ill, you know, not a consistent worker, because when you hung over or, you know, it's. It's not great. Mom, Pacific Islander, no real education, worked as a seamstress. She was brilliant at it, but that was the job she could get when she first came up from the islands. She had a gambling problem. But I would say in mom's case, food and love came first before gambling. So we never went without, you know, good food and because she could cook like a dream and stuff. And the loving. We knew she loved us. Yeah, absolutely. Totally. Just, absolutely loved us. So we were very fortunate to, I guess, have her in that respect. And dad, you know, he was really supportive of whatever sport we wanted to play, you know, and very demanding, too demanding in a lot of ways. Really driving you and screaming from the sidelines and just abusing you. It was not great. But.

But money never, ever came into it other than to know we never had any. And so I started working at 13.

Wow.

Part time and paid my own way from 13, including paying board. So. So the value of money, you know, was I need to figure out how to get some, both to help mom and dad, but also I don't want to be like that.

Yeah. Fair. So you're almost forced into thinking like an entrepreneur from a very young age and possibly had a mindset of money, of scarcity or it doesn't grow on trees type mentality.

Yeah. I think two things. One, dad's abuse is emotionally abuse, never physical, but emotional abuse in terms of never good enough, never did well enough, no matter how well I did, never. You know, his words hurt a lot. So I guess it was a strive to prove myself, but also a learning that, you know, I learned very. I understood very early on that I'm good at a lot of things, dad, because I'm getting all these awards and prizes and acing school and stuff. So the things you're saying, that just can't be true.

That's incredible that you could sense that and be aware of that.

But also, I don't know why you're saying those things. And they hurt crazily, but they just can't be true. And as a result of that, I guess it gave me a toughness against other people saying things or trying to bring you down or stop you from trying something because they weren't brave enough to do it. But the words were never going to be as powerful.

That's so amazing. He'd given you this abuse and put you through hell at times verbally.

Yeah.

And you would see that as a real negative and a real horrific thing for a child to experience, which it is. But actually you turned that and shaped that into a very positive thing where you learned. Because walking into a male dominated world, which, you know, the patriarchy is dominated forever, it needs to change and it is Changing. You must have had faced criticism, and you can't do that, and you're female, so you can't do this. So having that awareness of I can do anything.

Yes, that. Well, I so very early on in my career, because the life insurance industry, when I started in it by accident, just. It was the job that I applied for that said manager. Yeah, yeah. And I didn't know what life insurance was. How do you know that when you've never talked about money or being taught about money? But I walked into it, and it's so boring. You got one grade, one mark each year, and you know when you start for the first two years, you can look at the ledger and try and find lost money. Right. It's so boring. And. And I don't. My mind is at 200 miles an hour. I can't do boredom. I just can't. So they introduced a new product. In my first job, I was 18, introduced a new product into the market. No one had ever seen it before. So no one knew how to calculate loadings for sick people for that new product. And they went, you did well at maths. And I went, yeah, I'll do it. So I'm 18 in a company. No one knows whether I'm doing right or not. I'm figuring it out as I go along, and I'm doing something that no one else is doing. So, hey, it's interesting. I was the only person that had to play on the computer for a dumb terminal, you know, so. So very young in my career, too, I learned that put your hand up for stuff, because then it's not as boring. And if no one knows how to do it well, you might as well like. And that happened to me a couple of times in other jobs where someone left and I got no training, and they went, you're smart, you figure it out. And the next minute, I'm not only figuring it out, but now I'm the guru, and now I'm teaching everybody.

It happens like that.

Yeah. So 1821. By the time Sovereign, my first startup company that I went to work for, came along, I now knew that you can learn anything if you want to and you try hard enough. Common sense goes a long way in terms of figuring something out. And you don't have to be bored. Put your hand up for stuff that other people are too scared to put their hand up for. So that's entrepreneurship, I think.

Yeah.

But I got the opportunity to. Yes, I was brave enough to do it or bored enough. But number two is that born into you or did I learn that? I don't know. But that's where I think it started from.

I love that. And it's a, it's like a big mindset shift that you can learn anything and it doesn't matter where you come from, what age you are, you can have a crack at it.

And, you know, the converse of that is, you know, in my early 30s, I was on the board of Sovereign and lots of very well renowned, very old cigar smoking kind of directors around the table.

Mostly male, I imagine.

Yeah, around the table. And the actuary would come in and talk about the financial report and I'd start asking questions because I didn't have a clue what he was talking about. And I kind of get the young lady, we don't have time for you to learn here, you know, if you don't know that you shouldn't be on this board, kind of attitude. Not necessarily those words, some of them are lovely.

But the body language.

The language, yeah. And so I'd go out, track the actuary down, sit down with him and say, can you explain that to me? Because I feel like an idiot. And you know, the actuary for the first time in his life's got someone interested in what he's doing other than other actuary. So very patiently. And then I very early realized that most of the people sitting around the table didn't understand what was being talked about. And now I knew something more than most of the directors and I could understand and contribute in a way that they couldn't. And so again, it's just reinforcing that. Well, would I couldn't be an actuary, but no actually has ever been able to sort of pull the wool over my eyes since. And that's been true across all aspects of the business. I need to know enough to know that's amazing.

And what I love about it, there's a deep sense of curiosity with you. You ask questions. You've got a lovely energy in terms of you want to know and you're genuine about it. And it's interesting. I still see in boards and I'm not on a board, I haven't sat on a board, but I'm exposed to boards and sometimes I'll come in and do strategy sessions. I see still a lot of closed thinking. I still see an overabundance of males and an underabundance of diversity in gender and ethnicity. I think it's a real missed opportunity. And age. And age, yeah, it's generally like 55 plus, often even more than that. And I think having different people around the table with curious mindsets, they won't have all the answers. But if they've got the right questions, then we'll get the answers.

I, I think there's a lot of difference to the chair, you know, and so almost group think because people are, I guess a lot of people are brought onto boards just because of the basis of their name or their experience, their length of time, often legal background, accounting background, but actually no knowledge of the business or actually any business in terms of entrepreneurship. So that's build, build business and grow business, not just sit on business. And so I think that, that probably there is that fear that I don't know what I'm doing, so I'll defer to the person who does know or not ask any questions, not to expose it. And I think, I think that's a protection of brand rather than a. And it's a shame because, you know, the CEO, especially in an entrepreneurial or very fast growing business or business that wants to grow, that they need that kind of energy and support from the board and often it's not there.

Yeah, I can see it 100% and I think it's clear that you were academically talented, but you doubled down with hard work. It wasn't that you were gifted with just a massive iq, that you've got great iq. But actually you worked so hard.

Yeah.

At school. How did you know? How did you progress through school and university? Was that a big part of life is studying?

Yeah. I didn't finish university, so I left and I wanted to get married to my husband Kerry, who's in the pipe, man. So that's how I end up.

Carrie. I love Carrie.

Yeah. And I couldn't afford to stay at university and, and be married, so took the first job that came along, which was management trainee, life insurance. So I'm not a fan of. You have to have a degree unless you want to be a doctor or something that requires a, you know, a degree that, that actually learning is good, any learning is good. But a lot of people can waste a lot of time going and get a degree that has no value and, and doesn't take them anywhere or they feel stuck because they started something and then they think that's what their job, their life has to be. How do you know that? At 17, that's.

Nobody knows that.

But. So not that big a fan of degree. But in terms of school, I mean, I come from a poor background, so I work from 13. Dad was an alcoholic, so. And I'm the only girl. So Mum relied on me quite heavily for sort of emotional support through that. So that's pretty heavy to deal with. Four rambunctious brothers who are noisy and loud and, you know, and always had friends over because that was Mum's preference to them going anywhere else. I was never allowed to go anywhere else, but they, they had lots of friends. So really noisy. And it's a tiny three bedroom house with five kids and two adults in it. And I had to study.

How on earth did you do that?

Yeah, that's a good question.

Chaos.

A lot of on the bus to and from school, a lot of sort of in between hockey practices and, you know, and all of that sort of stuff. But so that sort of hard. You. It's that concept. And my mother was the same, you want something done, give it to the busiest person. Right. Because they just expand and contract. But what that taught me is life is not work and sport and school and family. Life is all of those things. Just a big muddle of those things. And I love that. I love the business and I love the challenge and I love that I couldn't be bored. You know, I did that. That's like death by a thousand cuts.

You like active, relaxing, like doing things. And I love that you say life is all of it.

Yes, it is.

Because often when I'm speaking people like James, how do we get life, like work life, balance.

Yeah.

You don't. There's no such thing. Don't stop chasing it. Like it's ridiculous. Yeah, it is all. And I love to talk about work and I love to explore ideas and I love to bounce them back and forth with my partner. I love to bring my son along where possible. And like I see work as joy.

Yeah.

And you're helping other people and you put food on the table. Why should it be so separate? And so I guess throughout your life you've always embraced that and Kerry obviously has to.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. It's not always been easy for him, you know, because he's got a wife doing this job and traveling and mixing with mainly men in an industry when I was young. And that's a challenge for him. And people would tell him, how could you deal with your wife earning more than you or being in this big job or, you know, and he used to flippantly tell him he was a very happy man and I should earn more, you know, but. But the reality is he's a beast. Not being brought up in that environment or with a mother, that, that. So it was All a big challenge for him to try to come to earth as well. And so we've had to negotiate and navigate that throughout our. Our marriage. But 42 years later, it might work yet, I think.

So you got some good ingredients there. Well done. Yeah. I'll be taking notes. And in terms of companies, so you obviously, partner's life is the massive success story that we know about. Billion dollar sale. First New Zealand female to do so. Unbelievable. Well, it's not unbelievable. It happened. It's believable. You did it. It's really incredible. And I want to talk about the mechanics of that in a minute. But that's not the only company you founded. There's two others on top of that.

Well, I was the founding employee of Sovereign, so it was founded by two gentlemen, Chris Coon and Ian Hendry. Come from.

International market. Saw an opportunity in New Zealand. Chris had a Kiwi wife, wanted to bring up his kids here, so they wanted to start a life insurance company in New Zealand. No one had done and they didn't know how to do it either. And they needed someone to operationally build the bits because Ian was a marketer and Chris was an actuary. No, neither of them had actually done the thing in the middle. And I was the only person who applied for the job at 24. So. Because I, you know, I went, I don't know how to do that, but I'm sure I could figure it out and no one else would. Would take a punt on a startup company. Wow. So they had to take me. But as a result of that, they went.

Build and. And I was able to go, well, I know that company that I've just come from does it this way, but I've always thought that was pretty rubbish. So I, I did all the legal papers right around insurance and where that's. It's not the law. So we'll change it. We'll just do it a different way. What a. What a hoot.

That's unreal.

What a pleasure. And you get some things wrong and you go, well, that was rubbish. So I'll change it. Rather than, oh, that's rubbish, it didn't work and leave it broken. I just change it. So it was, it was Sovereign is the reason why I am. I was able to do all the other things that I subsequently did because they really literally just let me go for it.

Give you the keys.

100%.

That's amazing.

Yeah. So blessed to have those two men in my life at that time. Yeah. And Sovereign became the number one life insurance company. Not without a lot of travel. Not without a lot of moments where they thought they were, particularly about competitive behavior and regulators. Similar story to partner's life. They thought they'd lost it all. Right. And so seen them go through dark times, but never stopped me. They never stopped me even when they were worried from trying the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. So, yeah, I was lucky. Brave. They were lucky.

Yeah. And there's a lot of creating your own luck as well. And I've only ever sat down with a few billionaires in my life. And there's one thing that keeps coming up and you're showing it in, like, abundance right now, and that's this. Figureoutable. Everything's figureoutable. Leave it to me. I'll figure it out. I'll put my hand up, I'll volunteer. I don't know what the answer is, but I'll figure it out. Yeah, that's amazing. Where does that come from?

Yeah, but. Because if anyone can, everyone can, right? Like, if. If someone had been able to figure out how to get here in terms of a process or a way of doing things, then they're just a person with two arms and two legs and a brain. So why can't. Why can't I? There's an arrogance of youth because if it makes common sense and you can't see why you shouldn't do it, you just go for it. Because you're not worried about, well, what happens if it fails? What about my reputation? Or I wasn't. What about my reputation? Or whatever. Never even crossed my mind. It was just. This is so exciting. Yeah, it's so exciting. And so many of the things that we did in the early days of Sovereign became the way it was done. And some of them I invented and they're still going on today. And I just go, look at that. Like it was. Feels like 100 years ago. And they don't even know why I built it that way. And we've since gone on and done it completely differently because, you know, that worked for a time, but it's not appropriate for now. Then a lot of companies are stuck in the way it was always done because no one knows why they did it that way and therefore able to challenge a radically different way. So they tweak around the edges and it provides opportunity for competition for others that are willing to go, you know what, we'll throw it out and start again. Yeah.

Be innovative.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's so important. And I think a lot of people talk about Innovation. And we do innovation. I'm like, well, how do you do innovation?

But they're not, they put it in their mission statement. Yeah, resilience, curiosity, you know, restlessness. They use these words, but they, they don't really know what that means. A lot of people don't know what strategy means either. Even if they're in a strategic job, you know, chief strategy officer, they don't really understand what that means. Not my view of what that is anyway.

What is your view? So, because you're clearly, you've set strategy for years and decade. When you think about when someone says, I want a really robust strategy, I want something that's going to set us up and we can move towards. What does it look like?

Well, it looks like a place in the world. It doesn't look like a plan and it doesn't look like an iteration of where you are today. Like, we'll be five times better than we are today. That's like, just do more of what you're doing. Right. It is, it is. We can revolutionize this space and drag everyone else with us if we, if we successful. Right. And so for me, it's the, it's. What place do you want to play in the world? Like, so in life insurance, for me, it was always, there are things about this industry that are not good for the customer. They're good for the shareholders and they're good for the people who run the businesses, but they're ultimately not the right thing for the customer. Well, before there were any regulations. This is not fair, it's not right. And it's imbalanced in terms of the knowledge that a customer could have versus the knowledge that the insurer has. Right. So for me, our place in the world was to change that and to put the customer at the center of that conversation and to make sure that they got their money's worth right and they understood what they had and it was the right thing for them. All the things that the regulators now insist that you be able to demonstrate, which wasn't hard for us at Partners Life to be able to do that, because that's what we'd always, always done. It gives you a competitive advantage. Yes, you pay for it, you give away profit to get there. But, but no one can argue that you take a startup company and you turn it into, you know, number two company and sell it for a billion dollars. That, that didn't work. Right. But it is. It takes your willingness to say, whatever it costs, that's the cost. And whatever we make in profit that's what we make. The right thing to do is always the sustainable thing and the competitive thing to do. So strategy for me was that that's our place in the world. It's to. It's to force the industry to do the right thing.

It's revolutionary thinking.

Yeah. But that strategy, because otherwise, it's just. It's just tactics. Yeah.

Which is not strategy when you look at that. And I would say most people, when they think strategy, they think one year, two year. It's very linear and very metrical. This is. When you're describing this, I can picture what you're talking about. I can feel it. Actually. It's more of a feeling.

Yeah. Very hard to put on a piece of paper to the satisfaction of. Somebody wants to see strategy in a can. Right. Which is what everybody's asking for. And so you give them a plan.

Yeah.

Tick that box. But that's. That's where the heart and soul and then everybody you sell that to can get behind that. And how you get there is different and changes. But if everybody is wanting that and it's in them to want that and they can see what's in it for them when we get there, then. Then everybody's. Everybody's shaping the plan to. To deliver that. So that's. That's. That's just what I've always thought.

I like that. I like your clarity in terms of how you shape that and frame that. And with partners, life. So when did you start? What year did that.

We launched in 2011.

Okay.

Yeah. So we started building it 2010.

Yeah.

Yeah. Three of us. And my backyard furniture in the office that we were leasing. I love it with the three of us. So. Yeah. So it doesn't seem that long ago.

But you had a clear vision.

Absolutely. Clear vision.

And all three were on the bus.

I don't know. The other two just wanted to make sure that I was there, I was in, and then they kind of let me go for it. Yeah.

Unreal. And was this year on year. Wow. This is like we're compounding at speed or was there some tough stuff there?

No. So we thought. When I started Club Life, we did a million dollars new business premium in the first year. And I thought that was pretty good. So we thought, well, this one we know a bit more. Market's a bit different. We'll do 5 million in the first year. We did 23 million in the first year. So we were running to catch up with ourselves. So we had knew we would be successful with advisors because they were Desperate for something better. Sovereign had been fantastic. Then it got bought, and it stopped being that company. And no one else was filling that gap. So we knew that there was another sovereign in there or a place for not exactly the same, but the same heart.

Opportunity there.

Yeah, opportunity. And so we knew that there was that opportunity. And so we knew advisors would at least. And it was me. So they knew me to trust. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They knew I did what I said I was going to do and it would be fun and funny and stuff. And so we knew that come along with us. So before we even launched, we hadn't even had our roadshow to launch what the products were, the prices where we started to get all these applications in on other people's application forms, other companies. And the broker would write on it, talk to the client about you guys. They're happy to wait until you launch. No, you can't do us a quote. But if you can underwrite this the minute that you're ready to go, then I want to be your first. This client wants to be your first customer. So I was underwriting. I was. Because we had. We didn't even have underwriters on board, really. There's. While we were on the roadshow launching the products, boxloads of application forms. So we. So we just, like, we were running to hire people, get them up to speed and do all of that sort of stuff within minutes. So we hadn't even finished the computer system.

My God.

And we were inundated with that personal brand.

Do you think that's like Naomi Valentine personal brand? And I know kiwis don't like talking about themselves. And the humility is great, but it's also a massive weakness at times. But do you think, like, actually people trusted me, they followed me because they could see the results and they could see the ethics and the morals.

Yeah, 100%. 100%. I think advisors also were. You know, if it takes six weeks to get someone's. Someone's policy issued, it's hard. It's a really hard job to get someone to buy when you're an advisor, to get them to talk to you and then to get them over the line to actually. And then fill in all the application forms, and then you give it to the company and you have no idea what's happening to it. And you, you know, your client goes cold and you lose them. So all that work that you've done, you've not got paid for. And then the thing you have no control over is the thing that kills it. It's so hard for them. And that was what was happening. And so they knew that that's not the company that I ran because they'd seen two before. So they're just going, you know what? You know what? We trust that the product would be good, the price would be good, et cetera, et cetera, but at least we can get covered and we're not going to lose our customers and. And all those sorts of things. So, yeah, I think I would not have said that to you at the time, that that would have a big part to play.

But looking back.

Yeah, definitely, that's interesting.

And I see a lot of people nowadays talking about personal brand, and it's almost a bit tacky and a bit like, tactical. And I'll do this to it, boost my personal brand. It's not about that I talk to you and listen to what you're saying. It's. It's more about doing the right thing consistently over the long term. Being like a curious learner and always asking and searching for possibilities.

Yeah.

When you look back on that and you've got someone listening right now going, I want to build an I Only Valentine personal brand, what advice would you have for them?

It's interesting. So humbleness is something that comes, I guess, from always being told, you're an idiot, stupid, not good enough. You know, so, you know, you never believe that you're good. You kind of fundamentally have an intellect to go, I know I'm good at this thing, but you don't have the ability to go, so I should celebrate that, or other people should notice that or anything like that, because I'm just trying to prevent being told I'm stupid again. Yeah, I think that partly feeds that humbleness. Part of it is very Christian upbringing, Pacific island behavior, which is don't show off, don't speak up, which is not good, by the way. It's too much, but very much. Don't get a big head kind of thing. So all of those combinations of things I think have always meant. I've never been a threat to people who want to be seen for themselves or. Or who want their brand to be positioned or who want to be acknowledged. I've never been a threat to that. So I'm everyone's mum. And in fact, I talked to someone not so long ago and they said, you know, the whole market is, before I left, really scared about you leaving. And I said, yeah, that's because I've been the constant in their whole career. I've just always been there because I'VE been there since I was very young and the boss since I was very young. So they've always known they could pick up the phone and call Naomi. And whether that's because their kids got sick or their wife's leaving them or, or they've just done something wonderful and they want to tell you about it or they want you to talk to a client because they want to prove to the client that they've got a direct line to the person at the top. The only CEO in the market that's ever done that. Because I don't see myself as the CEO. I'm just Naomi. And I understand how hard their job is and I understand how much I need them to run my. So they're more important than I am. Yeah. So if I can do something that, that helps them in that circumstance. And I think that lack of that humbleness, that lack of the need for it to be about me has meant that it's been okay to be about other people all of my life. And I like that about me. I really like that about me. People used to say, don't take this the wrong way, but I really love you because you're so ordinary.

What was your response to that? I love it because it's interesting when we connected in the lobby and it's been many years since we've seen each other from pipe band, but there's an instant warmth and humor. You lead with humor and joy and cheekiness. We're talking about your foot. You've had a bit of an Achilles incident recently.

Nothing to do with age.

No, just a golfing accident. But I love that about you. And I think in a professional sense, if you can carry that natural tendency to be warm and as you say, everyone's mum, you're going to build great deep connections and trust. People trust you and you're safe to be around because you'll always be you. There's none of this behind closed doors. I'm going to be mean and sociopathic.

I think that's exactly the point. I am always me. It's easy. It's much easier to just always be yourself. And it doesn't mean that people will like you, will not like you. That's never been a thing that's driven me because I've. I've from a very early age known that there are people who don't like me. I went to an all girls school and I went to an all girl school where the rich and the pretty, you know, were fated, etc. And all girls can be Pretty. But, you know, I was really good at sport from a really poor background with Pacific island mother in a time when there was a lot of racism towards island families. And I never fit. I was a tomboy. No. None of the clothes, you know, because we didn't have any money. And so I never fit with the clique either. So I've always been on the outside observing people and figuring them out. Right. Being able to watch and see what drives them learn very early on. A lot of those girls are really miserable trying to keep up with the night. Who learns that at school? Well, I got to. Right. So as a result of that, I think that helps you to learn how to speak to every different type of person, how to be what they need you to be without compromising values. Just you don't. It doesn't have to be about you.

The master skill. It's like a superpower that you've got.

Yeah, I think so.

And I still see it. I see it. My son goes to really lovely we school to the regular public school. And there's a real diversity of parents, but I can see some. And they've clearly got a lot of wealth, but they really want to show you.

Yeah.

And, you know, it's the beautiful new Louis Vuitton handbag. Every three weeks, a new one comes up and it's the immaculate makeup and the hair done and, you know, the dads have the designer this and that and for school pickup, and I might be picking them up in my runners and my gym gear. You know, I just don't see joy in a lot of that. And what I love, you know, we were chatting again before we hit record. You're at a place in your life where you've got absolute freedom and you've earned it, but you've remained consistent with your values. How does someone do that? If someone right now is going, I'm on the way up and my business is growing and there's more money coming in. You know, we see it with young men, particularly private jets, limousines all over Instagram. I see this in New Zealand. Even.

You're like 100%. You do terrific. Yeah.

So how do they. How do they. What's the advice? To stay grounded and be humble.

Yeah. So when you. When you run a business, when you start a business, you could always lose your business. I don't think a lot of people really realize that. And so for me, I always had to be okay with if I lose it all because I have a son and I had a husband and, you know, we had my mother, who I was supporting financially, all dependent on, you know, the, on what happened with this business. And yet so many days where. And you know, this early on in building your own business, so many days, we just think, that's it, I'm done, it's nothing more. I don't know how to move on from this. Then you take a deep spot and say, well, it's just too bad because look at all the people. But you also have to go, well, what's the worst that can happen? Because otherwise it can overwhelm you and freeze you. You can't move forward because you're so overwhelmed with the fear of what's going on. And so I had to go, well, what's going to happen tomorrow? If you can't figure this out, what's going to happen?

Close the doors. You've got reserves for all of the claims. You've got to have them. The business, the customers are fine. Shareholders might lose some money, you lose everything. Start again. You're smart enough, you can figure it out, start again. And it just getting to that point, we're going, that's okay, it's all okay.

Has helped. But I think the fact that you do go to. But you could lose it or stops you from going. So therefore I'll get a private jet and, you know, and add to that debt. It's never been so. I've always had a reasonably comfortable life, but we don't live in a massive mansion and we, well, we, you know, we didn't own a big boat. We own a runabout until we sold the business and the first thing we bought was a big boat. Well, I'm trying not to show off, but we love our boat and, you know, hey, you know, it's a culmination of a career, a lifetime of career, so why not? But I guess what I'm saying is.

I never needed other people to think I was successful. I needed other people to still have a job. The people who work for me, for advisors to know their customers were safe or, you know, the company's brand and reputation to be good. I needed those things. I didn't need anyone to think anything about me. Yeah. And I think that my advice would be there's freedom in not caring what other people think about you and you needing to think about you. Your staff needing to think something about you. Your customers wanting to come with you. They're the only people that count. And other people at school or other business people are in a different kind of business that their opinion and their Approval is not necessary. And if you can get there, then. Then there's a freedom in that. Because obviously, a lot of those people that have those flash things, they leverage.

To the hilt, they don't own most of them.

And the stress of that is, like you said, there's no joy in a handbag if it's on tickets. There's just stress. Right.

That's the same with, you know, if you've got your fourth car there, that's, again, being paid at the max. There's no joy to that at all. It's interesting. You know, I look at. When you look at it like that and go, hey, it all could all end tomorrow. And I'm okay with that.

Yeah.

If it all falls apart, I've still got Carrie, I still got Chris.

That's right.

My life is here.

That's right.

And I think we can get caught up in Bible. People perceive it.

Yeah.

You know, what will the media think if, you know, if you're in a business that has media exposure.

Yeah.

And Bronnie Ware was a palliative care nurse, and she asked the questions of her patients on their deathbed. What do you regret? When you look back in life, what do you regret? Number one regret. And her books called the Top Five Regrets of Dying sounds pretty morbid, but I think it's a masterful book. We should all read. It was number one regret. I regret living my life making decisions based upon what I thought other people thought of me.

Yeah.

That was it. And you've just summarized that like, if you can get rid of that today.

Yeah.

Everything changes.

Well, the reality is other people's thoughts about you have got nothing to do with you. I mean, a lot of people say it. I say it. That their thoughts about you are driven by their own insecurities or that you've done things that they would never do, either because they're not brave enough to do, or they don't value it or whatever. And most people want to want everyone else to do what they do to validate them or, you know, and which is why they're all seeking to be seen to be what other people seem to be doing. Right.

Like tribal, kind of.

Yeah. It's such a weird thing. So. So the people who count, their opinion matters to me and no one else's does. It's not got anything to do with me. I just happen to be the target.

Good on you.

Of them getting something out of their system that makes them feel better. And if that makes them feel better, good on them, because it's not at my expense. Yeah. Because I don't let it be. And I wish more people could take that view because the huge harm that comes from.

Charlotte. I can't remember her name. Who killed a South Australian. So sad. She was gorgeous and funny and talented, and the thing that ate her was what other. Other people, people who never met her, didn't know her, wouldn't have a clue about her. And unfortunately, she couldn't. She couldn't let it go because, you know, you'd go, well, don't read it then. But. So I don't know. I. I just wish more people could free themselves of. Of worrying about what people who don't know you have decided they think about you.

That's so empowering to hear that. And it's a great reminder because I think it's very easy to get caught up in this social media world. We chatted before, you know, you don't do social media. I love it. That's so smart. And I think the more I look at social media and the landscape, you can get caught up in it. Some of the professional athletes I've worked with, and they're great people, amazing performers, they've been in it for years. They'll come to me during a season and go, not in a good place. What's up? You see what somebody wrote on Instagram? I went, what do you mean? Did you see that comment on that post? I was like, these posts. And, well, someone said, you know, you suck and you're a terrible player and you're a. Has been. And okay, so why is that meaning so much to you right now? It's clearly impacting. You said, well, it's got me thinking maybe. Maybe I am a. Has been like, do you know who commented? Do you know who they are? You went, no idea. So you don't know? No clue. I said, they're keyboard warrior, man. Like, the best thing you can do is delete it for the season. Delete that app. Don't go there.

Yeah.

And so you're saying the same thing. Don't go there. Don't engage with other people's opinions unless those people kind. They matter to you. The close loved ones, the mentors.

Yeah.

Amazing.

Yeah. And I wish. And if adults think that, then maybe they can teach their kids that too. Yeah.

Yeah. Worry about. As a dad, you know, I think a lot about Finn, and I'm sure other parents of kids in his class think the same. Like, how does he navigate when people comment on how he looks or moves or his interests or. And you worry about that. What advice would you have? Because you've got many more years of parenting experience than me. I'm a rookie. What would you say in terms of empowering your kid to just be themselves?

You just talk to them about it. The fascinating thing for me is parents don't seem to understand parenting anymore. And they seem to think that learning happens at school and you can't, you know, the stuff that happens on Facebook or Instagram, you can't protect them against it. And the government should do something. And I go, but. But parenting, nothing's changed. You parent. And it's the joy of being a parent, even as simple as reading book. Like they should be able to read when they go to school because you've been reading with them since they were tiny, because it's fun for you and they absorb it from you and they get a love of it from you and all of that sort of stuff. But. But it just seems to me that people like when Chris was young, he wanted to buy something really expensive. And we said, well, we'll advance you your pocket money, but you need to understand it's going to be this many weeks before you get any pockets. There's interest on that. And he's like, no, I have to have that. He's going to hate me for telling you this story, but I'm going to have to have that thing. I have to have it now. We went, okay, gave it to him, and after about two weeks, the thing is no longer. And he's like, I need mocker money. You've only got another eight weeks to go.

And did you stick to it?

We stuck to it. It was so hard. We have one kid and by the time he's eight, you know, we. We're okay. We could have easily. And we just didn't. We just did it. It was the hardest thing ever. And I am so proud of. He's so much more financially savvy than me. And it started then it started, then it hurt him so much.

That's brilliant.

And he just didn't want to borrow money. You know, I'm going to try this on Finn. So. But that's. That's what parenting is. That's what parenting is. And I think so many people have forgotten that actually. 99 school is a thing legally you have to do and it helps you to go to work, right, that they've got a place to go to learn. But it's. It's not the be all and end all of learning for a start. What do teachers know about Stuff outside of the curriculum. You're relying on someone you don't know. You don't know what they know to what teach them everything. Like, I don't know. So it's just my view, just having seen a lot of Yang and also talk to a few people about, well, why don't you do it? Like, it just seems bizarre to me that that's not just what you do when you're a parent. But then, you know, I didn't really have parents. Mum. Mum was engaged with us, but dad was. And I don't know why I learned that or where I learned that from, but it helped our son. Yeah. And, yeah, I think he's magnificent.

So I would agree. Yeah. Well done. High five on that. We can check in in 30 years and compare notes. You know, I've got a long way to go.

Yeah.

But I love it. It's. Parenting's a joy and it's a challenge. And I just. I think my goal, first couple of years is like, I don't want him to grow up. I want it just to press pause.

Yeah.

Now my goal is, like, I want to get to the point where he can independently live without me and thrive without me and be happy without me and be him.

Because that's the other thing. You know, a lot of parents get very frustrated that their kid is not them. And I've actually heard people talk about, you know, the rogue child. It's not fair. I parent them the same. And I go, well, what? There's no parenting book. You can't follow a parenting book for both kids and expect them to both come out. You parent for the kid to the kid, for them to become the best them that they can be, not the same or the same as you. And that is also really scary to me that.

When you're born, you're you. It can be beaten out of you a bit or encouraged. Right. And it can be tweaked and changed. But the essence of you is there. You are a whole person the minute you're born. And all parents are there to do is to nurture and guide and support and keep you safe until you become fully you. Right. And so you don't. They're not yours, they're yours to keep the. Yours to shape. And I think that's such a privilege and such a blessing and like I said, such a joy. It's the best part of my life by a long shot. And people say it's challenging. It was never as challenging as it was joyful. So that's my view.

I love that. And I'm in the thick of it. And I would agree.

Yeah.

The joy that I get from being a dad is just the best. Oh my God, I can't beat it.

And it carries on. My son's 34, he's, he's married to the most gorgeous daughter in law. And they are, they are still my, just my favorite people to be around.

I love that. Yeah, I really do. That's interesting, the whole idea of parenting in this modern age. A guy recently, Jonathan Haidt, wrote a book called the Anxious Generation. And he said, we under, in the real world we are overprotecting our kids and in the online world, we're under protecting them. I said, let them get out into the world, let them go to the local corner shop, let them run and scrape their knees. But we're stopping all of that behavior because we're so protective.

Yeah.

And I've been at a few events recently. I was at one in Auckland and someone in the Q and A said, so what about this new generation that's coming into the workforce? You know, how do we get them to, you know, step up and how do we get them to be great? And well, there are humans like the rest of us and actually, do they have a voice in your organization? Are you learning from them as much as they're learning from you? What's your experience? Because you've been through, say a generation or two of people coming through and there would have been different mentalities and different values that people brought. What was your approach to getting the best out of these people?

Yeah, and I think I would start by saying I've never seen people as a group of people. I've always seen them as individuals because everybody's a combination of a whole lot of things. So they're young, but they might also be from a different ethnic background. They might have been, you know, private school, they might have been public school. They might have been really good at sports, really good at music, not very good at anything. The backgrounds are so diverse that you can't say all young people are like this and all old people are like that. They're not, they're, they're one person. And, and from a leadership point of view, if you embrace all of who they are and you understand it, you take the time to find out a little bit about them, then what works for them will be slightly different. When one works from someone else, but doesn't matter, does it? It's what works to get them to, to want to deliver their best in the Workplace and to tell you what they think, actually. So you're. Your point is exactly right. People new coming into your organization, young or otherwise, are the ones that go, why do we do this this way? I don't understand that. That doesn't make any sense. And just do it that way, because I told you to, is the quickest way to. To shut that off. And you lose it. You lose the value of someone new coming to your organization going, this sucks. Why can't we change it? And then you go, you're right, it does. Why don't we. So I actually think.

If you want to get the best out of your people, you need to figure out what's going to work for them. And that's them as an individual, not as a group of people. And lots of things are common. So you do lots of things that work for everybody, but for different individuals, like parenting. You can't have one thing that works for everybody and you'll all make this work. And if you don't, it's your fault. That's a management fault. That's someone who's too lazy to lead. Yeah, they want to manage.

Good advice.

I love that. That.

I really love that. And it's interesting. We talk about our kids setting expectations. People have often said to me, I don't know what it's been like for Carrie, but I said, james, Ben's going to be a drummer. Right. I don't know, maybe you've made him drum, right? I was like, well, no, there's drum pad and sticks there. And he knows. He's seen me drum in his younger years, but I'm not going to force him. And I remember in the pipe band world, a few of my friends who literally said that they're a kid, you're playing the pipes or you're playing the drums. I don't think it ends well. And I'm keen to just to let Finn find his way from your end. As a parent with Chris, did he kind of dictate his journey?

Yeah, he did. He wanted to play the drum since he was about 2, even though his dad is one of the best pipers. Right. And to carry his credit, he never tried to force. He was just happy, you know, there'd be little Chris at two at the back of the band with his little paint, plastic paint that we'd put on his, you know, a little belt around his neck so he could wander down with the Tina drumsticks and. And bang behind the bed. Just a little kilt and stuff like that. Yeah. So he Kind of. But he's, he's very musical and he just wanted to play everything from when he could. We let him play every sport that he wanted to play, do any music. But he had to do it. Yeah. Had to commit to it. And then if he didn't want to do that, then you stop that and then you do the next thing and, and he found music. We thought he was actually going to go into music professionally, but then he learned that that's his brain is. He needs the sort of. The business that. The challenge of that and music is his release. So he goes home. He set up a whole music studio at home which he records some stuff but most of the time he just goes there if he's had a frustrating day and place the shit out of his guitar.

Oh, good.

Drama is whatever and, and, and lets it go. And it's from a mental health perspective. Been fantastic for him because often people with brains that never stop, have challenges with, with your brain never stops. Right. You never get the respite from that. So I go trail running. I hate it in terms of the breathing because I'm a sprinter, but I, it. I can't think of anything else. And it's beautiful. You're in nature and you know, you're out. You feel so good afterwards and everything clears out of your mind. And for him, it's music. For Kira, it's music.

We've got to find our thing is what you're saying.

You've got to give yourself permission to find a thing that just clears your head. Yeah. And if it's praying, for example, or it's whatever it is.

What, meditating? Reading?

Yes.

Hill walking. We live in the hills. I just love it. Yeah. It's interesting. You and I, I feel both have minds that think a lot and are active.

Yeah.

Me thought of me sitting still for too long and being on a beach holiday for like, it's hell. And so I think it's an active life in terms of the mind. And a lot of people say, James. One person in particular said, james, you're obsessed. What do you mean? You're obsessed with like, you know, going deep and you're obsessed with growing this and doing this and. Because I love it.

Yeah.

It's not obsession. I love it. And I've got lots of time with my family and they're part of it and I've got diverse things that I do, but I could do a 60, 70 hour week and it wouldn't be weird or like I wouldn't feel exhausted because it's not work, it's passion.

No, it's who you are. That's like saying who you are is broken.

Yeah.

Because they're not like that. That's. I think an obsession is something that is bad for you. Right. That is. That's taking you down a path that is damaging you or the people around you. Right. Otherwise it's just. It's like you said, what you love, that's a passion, not an obsession.

Thank you for like putting it like that. That makes sense to me. Like that language. And clearly you weren't doing 37 and a half hours a week. When you're building partners life, what did a week in the life look like as you were building it?

Well, by then Chris was already grown up, so that, you know, I didn't have. When he was younger, I would literally.

Go hell for leather and do 10 times as much as anyone during the day so I could go home at night at five o' clock every night, give him his bath, feed him and then do work when he went to bed so he wasn't compromised. Right. So that was really important to me and I didn't own the business. Right. So I took the risk that by that stage, you know, there were a lot of people working at Sovereign who would. A lot of men who would stay late, go to the bar afterwards, all to be seen to be staying. And I would never do it. I would never do it. And I made the decision that if that means my career is held back, that's just too bad because this is the thing I most want to do in my life, which is be his mum. And it didn't hold me back. Thank God for Chris and Ian, who. Who didn't judge me on that basis. But, yeah.

So, yeah, I'm really glad that you prioritized your priorities. And it's. I hear a lot of people talking about being busy nowadays.

Yeah.

So busy. How's the week looking? Busy. And when I hear that, I'm like, okay, this person clearly lacks priorities. Because if you've got priorities, you might be putting a lot of hours in, but you're not busy.

Yeah.

Busy is a thing where you're just running from A to B. Yeah. To me it seems like you're very focused.

Yeah.

And you know what the vision is and the strategy, like we talked about the feeling of that moving towards it. So as you're building partners life, you know, what are those building blocks look like? How do you build a team and what are some of the risks you have to take?

Well, one of the things I would say I get all the time is people say to me, oh, I've always wished, I've always wanted to be an entrepreneur. And I go, really? So have you got a, you know, have you got a vision and a strategy? What is it that you're going to deliver to the world? Why does the world need it? Who's going to buy it? How much are they going to pay for it? What's your competition like? Why you, not them? How much money do you need to get it to the point where, how much money you're going to make? And they go, and what did you think I did? What do you think? You have to think these things through because life insurance, you need a lot of other people's money, right?

A ton.

So, so why would they, why would a reinsurer put huge amounts of money with you? Why would an investor give you any kind of money if they don't see that there's an outcome for them that you don't. You can't demonstrate all those. Also, it's not a business if you don't know that anyone's going to buy it from you. You know, why would a customer ever buy it from you if you haven't even thought about those sorts of things? And they just go white. And I go, did you think it was easy? I woke up one morning and went, I've got a dream. Yeah. So I think.

It'S like a chess game to me because I've thought about all these things. You start moving the pieces and then you realize that that piece doesn't make any sense or the thing that I thought was going to happen over here or actually someone else has done something amazing over here. And if we did that instead of this, we'd get a bit. It's like chess to me. And also the idea that, yes, there's building blocks to get there, but in life insurance, to become, you know, the number one best company for the customer and hopefully that gives you the number one size and scale and all of those sorts of things is a long term prospect. But what you can't do is go, what I did at day one is still going to be relevant by the time I get there. I've done that and move on. So you're constantly going, I know we're doing it that way, but I don't like that. Let's do it this way.

All the time it's quite uncomfortable, it's uneasy almost all the time.

You never, ever, ever think you've got this. So we've won Heaps of awards and lots of people tell you how wonderful you are and all that sort of stuff. And investors invest huge amounts of money. And all of those should be moments when you go, I've arrived. And they never have been for me. They've just been, next, next, next, next. Which. Which I guess means that it's always. It's always difficult. It's never easy, it's never relaxed. I never go into work. Going, next few weeks, next few months is all pretty cruisy. But I don't think I could ever live if that. I think even if it was, I'd be going, no, I don't want to be bored. What are we going to do differently next? So. But for people who want to get on that bandwagon, they've got to understand you've got to do the work, you've got to do the mahi before you get there. Doesn't matter what the scale is, the mahi is still the same. And then you. And then you've got to follow that path, but be open to changing it as you go. And you've got to be able to deal with those hurdles you never saw coming that mean at any given time, you're staring into the thing that I said before. I don't know what to do. We might be losing it all right now, and I don't know what to do. And then you go, nope, you might not know what to do, but there's one little tiny step that you can take because momentum is everything, and you learn that quickly.

Yeah.

And once you start moving, it's funny how the world moves. And guess what? We always found an answer.

I love it. And it's interesting. People will see the success, right? They'll see Billion Dollar Sale. Whoa. But were there moments leading up to that where you're like, this could topple.

Over all the time?

Yeah.

Actually, you know, when we raised the money from Blackstone, there's the world's largest private equity firm on one side of the table and me and our team on the other side of the table. And. And it's. You're talking about huge amounts of money, and their process is long, and you are sitting there going, they have got you to a point where you're about to go into an exclusive agreement with them that you won't talk to anyone else about raising this capital, and they could walk away tomorrow and you've got to get them there. Or they could play a game and then wait till you desperately needed the money and then go, it's 20 cents a share. Yeah, we'll come in at 20 cents a share. So you've got to. You've got to understand where your strengths lie, what it is that they want and that they won't get it from anywhere else. And that's the price they're going to pay. And you've got a. You've got to believe it. You've also got to have a plan. If this doesn't work, what next? What. What else do we do? When do we call. Pull the plug? When do we call them on it? Because we can't go any further than that. And they didn't do any of those things. But that's the risk that you have. And the same thing, you know, in Daichi, Life approached the same thing. You can see the. You can see the finish line in terms of it becoming a forever company, because with a. With a. A company that owns it 100%, you don't have shareholders you have to exit for anymore. So now it's a forever company. Right. You're that close to where you dreamed you'd get this business to, but you're not there yet. And you've got all the shareholders and everybody ready to celebrate, and you're not there yet.

How do you deal with that? Like the emotions of that. There's a psychological and emotional toll that must take.

It does no harder, though, than starting a business in the first place. So just another one of those moments where you've got to pull yourself up and go, no, they want you. They want this business. There isn't another business like this out in the world. They want you. So, you know, you are in good hands. You will get them there because they want you, and if they don't, someone else will. Right. So. And as it turned out, it was the perfect outcome for the business and for me. So. But, you know, when we started the business, I. I didn't know that I'd be able to walk away at 60. Could have been 70 for all I knew.

That's a very different story, right?

100. It's a very different story. So, yeah, life is, you know, it's nice to sit back now and look at how it did turn out. Yeah.

You're a very unique person, and I think your uniqueness is very appealing. And I think with a partner's life, there is a uniqueness there. And I think that people pay a premium and pay a price and want proximity to uniqueness. And so if something I'm taking on board going, okay, like, how do we all discover our uniqueness and then how do we double down on it? And part of it, from what you said earlier, was give a lot less attention to what other people think. Just keep focusing on what you do and do it well and get really good at it.

Yeah. And I've always been fortunate to have, you know, I came from that sort of Christian background and I've been fortunate to have a mother kind of sitting on my shoulder. She passed a while ago, but, you know, and whether she would have used these words or not, I can hear her, you know, she. You're a good girl now, me or you're not. Right. So. And so for me, there's always been that guiding light about where. How far I will go. But that principle of do right by people, do ant others drives me. It's as simple as that. So if it's not. If it's not something I would want someone to do to me, I'm not going to do it to anyone else. Um. And life is simple when you boil it down to a principle like that. That's how I live my life. Whether it works or it doesn't work, it doesn't matter. That's how I'm going to live my life, because I want me to sit on my son's shoulder and to be, you know, his moral guidance long after I'm gone as well.

It's beautiful. And for a bit of advice for others, for the alpha male leader kind of knows it all and makes all the tough decisions and everyone else does the easy stuff. What advice do you have for them?

Well, I think that.

Legacy that you leave needs to be enough on your deathbed to say, I achieved something in this world. I left a mark. And if you really think about it, the answer is going to be no, you haven't. You've just damaged other people along the way. You haven't achieved anything other than hurting other people to make yourself feel better. And if that's the legacy you want to leave, then you don't need to change. But if it's not.

Stop.

And this is a changing world and I can see a changing tide. And we've got more people coming to the table, those leadership tables, and you've clearly done that and you've surpassed that. Forbes 50 over 50.

Yeah.

That's epic.

Yeah.

Seriously epic. Congrats. And also, you think about, you know, people who are in minorities, people who are underdogs, often they don't take a swing because they're like, no, I'm. I don't belong there.

Yeah.

What advice do you have for them.

Yeah, well, everybody is uniquely as important as everybody else. And I used to say that too, to my staff. I, you know, we, we, yes, I have a different title in a different job, but we're the same people. Right. I'm not a different, I'm not a better person. I just have a different job. Right. But, and, and I think that that is true of everybody and I think so. You are just as important as anyone else, and you are just as least important as anyone else, you know, if that makes sense to you. You take what you have and you do the best that you can with it. And for me, that was do the best buy other people with it. So lucky to being born in New Zealand. Lucky that I didn't have parents that physically abused me. Yeah. Lucky to have an int.

To get to a point. Lucky to have married the right person, you know, so you take the luck that you're delivered and you do as much as you can with it and you'd be satisfied that you were who you should be through your life. Then you've had a good life.

It's incredible. And now that you have retired partner's life has been sold. What is, what's your vision now? Is it long term? You think I'm going to do this? Or is it week to week, year to year? What's on the radar?

Yeah, I don't, I don't think I've, I've landed on that yet. So I know I have some currency. I'm doing some consulting. I'm on a couple of boards. And so brain's still ticking over, but I haven't yet decided do I need to have any relevance to anyone other than my immediate family anymore. And if I don't, how do I deal with that? How do I deal with the silence? The biggest challenge I have is I've been used to being surrounded by tons of smart people the whole of my life because I gather around people that are smarter than me. That's how you learn. Right. And, and, and, you know, been in awe of them. Yeah. And sucking in as much as I can from them. And now it's silent because they're all working in their work. So I don't get to see them every day, be surrounded by them every day. That silence is really difficult. And I don't know how to fill it yet. I don't know how I replace that yet or whether I even need to. But. And I'm finding that hard, really hard. But I'm smart enough to figure it out and I have to keep telling myself that, like, I've figured so many other things out in my life. I can do this, too. And my son's really good. He's. He's like my cheerleader. You should do this, Mum. You should meet that person, Mom. Don't forget to catch up with that person. Yeah. I am very lucky. Yeah.

Chris is a legend.

He is.

I love it.

Yeah.

And look, I want to be respectful of your time. I just want to say, before I ask you the last question, I just want to say a huge thank you. Thanks for your time. Thanks for what you've done for our country. Thanks for also, you know, keeping your family involved in what you do and not saying they have to be excluded. Like, this is a team effort and you really take the time to honor people that have served alongside you. And there's none of this me over we. You know, you're not that kind of masculine alpha. It's all about me. It's a beautiful, holistic, strong leader.

Thank you.

Thank you. It's amazing. One last question for a moment. I'd love you to just pretend we fast forward many years into the future and you're highly aware that it's your last day here on Earth. A really young person comes into the room and you love them dearly. They say, naomi, how do I go about leading my life on purpose? What would you say to them?

I think I would say to them.

How you touch other people, the impact that you make on other people. That's purpose. Right. And provided that you understand that and you're striving for that, you will just get there. You don't have to have it at the top of your mind all of the time, but you do have to have.

What you think your purpose is for other people. Because in the end, it's other people that count. Right?

Love that passions for us in terms of hobbies and purposes for others. I love that. Naomi, thank you so much. And I wish you nothing but the best as you explore this freedom that you've now got.

Thank you.

My pleasure. The Lead On Purpose podcast is sponsored by NZ Mortgages. Learn more at NZMortgages Co NZ.