How to create a cult like team with Jon Gordon

Today's special guest is John Gordon, author of the Energy Bus and many, many other New York Times best selling books. He is a leadership expert, highly sought after the world over. You're in for a treat. Enjoy the show. I got great news for you. Habits of High Performers is now available at all good bookstores in Australia and New Zealand. Even if you're passing through those airports, you can grab it there. Thanks to you today we became number one bestseller on Amazon Australia. Thank you so much and I hope you enjoy the book. Head over to thehabitbook.com if you want to grab it or head along to your favorite bookstore. John, a huge welcome to the Lead on Purpose podcast.

James, great to be with you.

I'm so glad to sit down with you. I've been reading your books for years. In fact, the Energy Bus is what kind of introduced me to your world. And I brought that into some of the teams that I work with. And it was a game changer in terms of how they show up and how they act and respond. Well, I'm actually super excited today to talk about your recent book, the seven Commitments of a Great Team. Now this to me applies to sport, business, family, politics, the lot. And the way that you are able to articulate what makes a great team is super powerful. So just to get the ball rolling, what's one word that you would use to define a great team?

Connected. The more connected you are, the more more committed you will be. You'll never have commitment without connection. So a team must be connected. That gives them greater commitment and they are now fighting for each other instead of against each other.

Beautiful. So we can try all these tactics and try and get commitments, etc. But until we've actually got authentic connection, we shouldn't even bother.

You've got to have the relationship and it's a. It's the relationship amongst the team members. And there's trust, there's care, there's respect, there's love, there's connection. Now that team becomes one. It's all about oneness, James. Am I one with my team or am I separate from my team? Is the team disconnected and divided? If they are, they'll be weak. Are they connected and united? If they are, they'll be powerful.

I want to talk about that in a minute. How we create deeper connection. But what do you think is the biggest lie teams believe about success?

They believe that a team must be talented to be successful. And talent is important. You got to have talent, but it is your culture, it is your relationships, it is Those commitments that will drive talent towards greatness. So team beats talent. When talent is in a team. Give me a team that is really committed, connected, gritty, fighting like crazy and give me a team that's talented but very disconnected and divided. That team that's really united and connected will outperform the more talented team.

You can see this even in kids sport, John. You know when you got a little kids team who really connected but they might not have the best players or whatever, they still manage to pull through.

Oh yeah. Now if you have talent and connection, look out. That's where a team that's not as talented but they're really connected goes against a team that is really connected and also talented, then that talent and that team wins. And that happens often because if you have a lot of connection, a great connection, but not a lot of talent, then you know you're going to be the best you can be, but you're just not going to be great.

Yeah, of course. And you used the word culture a second ago. I love this word. And you know, here in New Zealand we often look to the All Blacks who are, you know, world class at what they do in rugby and they tend to have a world class culture. So you've worked with some of the top sports teams in the world and military and business, you know all about culture. So when you look at the difference between good culture and great culture, what is it?

Well, let's define culture first and foremost. And by the way, the book Legacy was incredible. That's about the All Blacks obviously, and a great book, but it's all about essence. Culture is the living, breathing essence of what an organization or team values, believes, thinks, says and does. There's an essence that creates the culture and it comes from the leadership and the people on the team. That essence that you're living and sharing and believing and valuing every day, that's what permeates, that's what spreads and that's what is ingrained in everyone, in the hearts and the minds of the people. And that's how you get a culture. So what am I valuing each day? What am I believing each day? What am I saying each day? What am I doing each day? That creates your culture. Culture is not the words written on the walls. Culture is what you're living and breathing. So that's culture. And what's the most important part of culture? Well, it's the leaders that drive the culture. Your culture's essence will come from the leaders and their essence. So that's why you have to make sure that everything that you're talking about in terms of what you believe and value and say that you're actually living. And the best leaders, they have that essence that permeates that comes through, and people receive it, and they know it's real. They know it's genuine. So when I meet with the leaders, I say, what do you want your culture to be about? What is important to you? What are the characteristics that define you? And then also when you're looking for team members, what characteristics define those team members? When you look at those characteristics and the values and the qualities of those people, what you're looking for in others is usually the core values that you want for your organization and your team, which is interesting. It's a great way to look at it. I just did this exercise with an NFL team and the head coach, and it was a new coach. So we basically sat down and mapped out and created his values that are going to define his culture going forward. It's going to be so exciting to watch this culture come to life after doing this exercise with him.

I love that. And I think it's so important that the values that a head coach defines, that it truly resonates with him. He's not doing it for someone else or doing it for the brand. It's actually he believes in them.

Right? Because a lot of times, like, oh, well, this word sound. This sounds good. And I, oh, I like that word. And, well, we should be about that. No, no. What are you about? What are you gonna live and breathe every day like James, I am love, tough. I'm all about love, but I am tough. I am a challenger. I'm a fighter. I'm a gritty competitor. Most people are surprised when they think of energy bus. They would not know that I'm a guy that's a really big competitor. You get me on the pickleball court, and we are going. We're going after it because. Because I want to win. And so my thing is love tough. I'm all about love. I'm about challenging. So guess what? I need to bring people into my team and organization that knows I'm going to love them, but I am going to challenge them. And those people fit well within my culture. And I'm. I'm not saying it just to say it. It's who I am. So you've got to find people who fit you and your culture. And remember, the word culture comes from the word cult, which means your culture should feel like a cult. People should be able to look at your Team and organization say there's something different about those people.

Hey, James here. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about something. Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops for teams and companies all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from all armies to small businesses to large corporates, to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers, around the habits of high performers, about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please get in touch with my team. Carolinejlochlin.com will be able to help. I'll also make sure that we put that in the show notes. Yeah, I love that. It's interesting. When I go into some teams, there'll be certain, like, you know, fist pumps or rituals or certain words they use and you know that you're not part of the team because you don't know all the lingo, right. So for me it's going to go, hey, if they don't have those things, the rituals, the routines, they probably don't have a cult like team. So it's about developing those.

Yes, very much so.

Now I want to talk about the commitments of a great team. So I'd like to start with unshakable trust, which when I see a high performing team, whether they're business or sport, I always see high trust. And when I see low trust, I see low performance. So in your view, what breaks trust fastest inside a team and how do the best leaders kind of repair that in real time?

That's so good. So many things break trust. We have a trust builder, trust breaker PDF that we actually share with our teams and organizations. Like these are all the things that build trust and this is what breaks trust. What? One of the things that breaks trust is not being a person of integrity. Saying one thing and doing another, that's going to break trust. Integrity comes from the word integer, which means whole and complete. So when you have integrity, you have a wholeness and completeness. There's no gap in your character and there's no gap in what you say and what you do. So when you have the gap, that breaks trust. Also not being consistent definitely hurts trust. A lot of times people are moody, especially in sports and they got challenges, they got stuff they're dealing with in their personal life. So they come in day in, day out and they're not very consistent. They're moody. I actually spoke to a Major League Baseball team, the LA Dodgers. And right before I got there, the manager said, our guys are being very moody during, during spring training right now. So I basically challenged the guys. I'm like, guys, we cannot be moody. If you're moody, that means you're not consistent. If you're not consistent, your team doesn't know what to expect from you. If they don't know what to expect from you, they can't trust you. And so we've got to be consistent in order to build trust. Nick Saban, who's a very popular college football coach here in the United States, he's won a lot of national titles. Nick Saban is very consistent. His assistant coaches told me that he eats the same candy bar every day at the same time every day. And so he's so consistent that everyone knows what to expect from him. Even though his players often don't like him, they still trust him because they respect him and they know that he's consistent. So. So I think that's a key part of building trust as well. And then obviously gossiping and lying and not having your team's back and choosing other people before your teammates and saying things behind your team's back to the media will break trust. There's so many things that break trust. So just doing the right thing is what builds trust.

Beautiful. Yeah, we've seen that. Actually, you might remember in football, it was a World Cup, David Beckham was playing for England and he was, you know, quite a young, fiery player. He made a very silly move on the pitch, fouled someone, got a red card. England didn't go through the quarterfinal, semifinals, and the coach came out straight after to the BBC News and said, we didn't do it because of David Beckham. He's the. And right away, that coach lost respect from the entire team, the entire nation, because he took no responsibility and he broke that, that trust, that integer that you're talking about with his players, and.

You just nailed it. It's ownership. Like, if you don't own certain situations, if you don't take responsibility for them, you're going to lose trust immediately. And if you take ownership and you take responsibility, that conveys trust. If you're willing to do what's right instead of what's popular, for instance, that also will build your trust. It will break trust when you have an agenda, and your agenda is more important than your teammates and other people. So that's another thing that breaks trust. There's so many things that could break it, and there's so many Things that build it. But right there is the crux. Like, that's the key to team building. That's the key to a great team. You just said it. It's trust, communication. Can I trust you? If I can trust you, I will follow you. If I trust you, I will sacrifice for you and I will commit to you. If I don't trust you, I'm not going to do any of that. So I need to make sure that I can trust you. So. So many teams lose trust along the way. And. And that coach, it might have been right, it might have been David Beckham's responsibility and fault, but a great leader always owns it and takes responsibility and will even die in the sword so their player doesn't. Sha McVey with the LA Rams, who is a good friend of mine, I work with them. Sean will always take responsibility. Even when it's not his fault, he will take responsibility because he doesn't want the players to take the blame. He earns so much goodwill from his players and so much support and loyalty and commitment because that player knows or those players know. This coach has my back. Well, guess what? I'm going to have his back. I'm going to give even more for that coach.

I love that. I've seen that before. I've seen coaches like the current head coach of the All Blacks right now, Razor Robertson. He was the head coach of our most successful provincial super team. And his players for years would literally run through brick walls. If he asked them anything he wanted, they would do it. And it was almost like a brotherhood he'd kind of created. There was this respect rather than the. This hierarchy. It was like, we're all in this together. It's pretty powerful.

Three things. Three things. I shared this with the Washington Commanders before their playoff run last year. I got invited to speak to them right before they went to the playoffs. And out of the blue, they called. And it was. It was a fortuitous opportunity because I loved this team. When I showed up, I didn't expect to love them like I did. They were amazing. I talked about belief, brotherhood, and bu. You got to have belief, optimism and belief going in. And your belief must rise higher as the stakes and the challenges grow. You got to rise with your belief. You got to have that brotherhood. That's that connection, that's that commitment. We are a brotherhood. We're fighting for each other. And be you is that authentic power within you that is greater than your circumstances. The power within you to take on the challenge, to overcome, to persevere. The the grit to be successful. Just be you. Don't worry about what anyone thinks. Don't worry about what the world is looking at. Don't worry about the outside noise. You just be you and show up and then be your best you.

I love that, what you just said, John. I was sitting on a stage last Thursday with the current world bantamweight, world champion boxer, and she said exactly that. Oh, man, I wasn't going to say anything wrong to her. She would take me down, man. But she was like, be yourself. Like, you know, be your whole self. And you have no fear, no shame when you be your full self. So I totally resonate with what you said. You said one other thing right at the start of that, and that was around positivity. I believe in learned optimism. Be positive, choose positivity. So positivity as a competitive advantage is one of the commitments of a great team. So you've always championed optimism. In fact, Energy Bus is arguably the leading book on the planet for championing optimism. But how do you stop positivity from becoming toxic or performative?

I don't think you stop it. If it's positive, it can't be toxic. So the term toxic positivity shouldn't even exist, because if it's toxic, it's not positive. Let's call it what it really is. It's a lack of empathy, it's a lack of care. It's not meeting people where they are. It's glossing over things and just saying, oh, just be positive. I'm not listening to you, I'm not hearing you, and I'm not there through your challenge, through your circumstance. But when I meet you where you are and I understand the challenge you're going through, I can then hopefully encourage you and lift you up. But I'm not glossing over things to say, oh, just be positive. So, so we don't stop toxic positivity. We are just real and positive, loving and positive, optimistic and positive, caring and positive. People always say to me, james, it bugs me like crazy. They go, well, how do you navigate positivity and being real as if being positive is not real? No, it's about looking at the situation, looking at the challenge and the adversity, and knowing we have to find a way through this and over this, somehow we've got to overcome. We've got to navigate this. Positive leaders always find a way forward. Positive teams navigate negativity, losses, setbacks and challenges, to rebound, to have grit and perseverance and find a way forward and create more success. So it's about looking at the challenge in the situation and believing we can overcome, being optimistic that the future is going to be better than today, that this setback will not define us. That loss LO S S stands for learning opportunity. Stay strong. So I believe positivity is the way forward. It is the competitive advantage and toxic. Positivity is really just words that somehow the world has started to use to actually take down the positivity movement. It's folks who are negative out there who actually want to derail positivity because they're so negative. It's like, no, no, let's call it what it really is. Optimism, belief, resilience, grit, overcoming and all those characteristics are what we need. And I know you know this. You champion this as well, and you believe this. It's like, what's going to make you perform at a higher level? Being negative or being positive? And I'd rather. I'd rather delude myself into believing I'm going to be better than I am, and then I'll play better. Because the research from Duke University shows that optimists work harder, get paid more, and I'm more likely to succeed in business and sports.

It's way more fun to be around, John.

Yeah, more fun and more positive and more optimistic. But. But because the research shows, because you believe in a brighter and better future, you take the actions necessary to create it. But here's what the researchers said. These people deluded themselves into believing that it was going to be better. Deluded. They use the term delude belief. Is this actually diluting yourself towards a better outcome?

That's beautiful. I love that. Delusion and belief, like, there's a connection, but the two very different ways. The perception shapes the reality, right?

Yes. Yeah. Perception shapes the reality. Yeah. What is our perspective? How you see the world determines the world that you see. I mean, when I told my dad I wanted to be a writer and speaker, he was a New York City police officer, undercover narcotics, a very tough daddy.

And.

And he's like, what the heck you want to do that for? That's a load of junk that won't amount to anything. My dad had a perspective like people in my family, where we grew up, do not have dreams like that. No. We have to be practical. You're not going to be a writer and speaker. He saw it as a waste of time. I had a different perspective. My perspective fueled me. If I would have listened to him, I would have not have continued on. I called my dad an energy vampire. I love my dad. He Passed away. Passed away nine years ago. I miss him like crazy. But he had a negative view of the world. I had a more positive view of the world. Thankfully, I stepped into the positive.

Yeah, I'm glad you did. You've impacted millions of people's lives. And since my dad's a welder back in Ireland. And again, very different outlook. And the thought of speaking and authoring. Yeah, very strange.

So, yeah, he probably looks at you like, you do this with teams and they pay you. How does. How does that work? Like, that's how you make a living.

Yeah, he thinks it's wild. Absolutely. Now, I want to talk about accountability, because when I'm working with businesses or sports teams, accountability is one of the things that I see is missing. When they're not getting retention, they're not getting buy in engagement results. People are not holding each other accountable. So it's this idea of being accountable without fear. So many leaders kind of struggle with this care versus challenge tension. So what does healthy accountability actually look like in a team?

Yeah. And the seven commitments of a great team. One of the commitments that I wrote about is the commitment to getting better. And in order to get better, you do have to challenge each other. Yes, you encourage each other, you support each other, but you have to challenge each other. And you have to set a standard. This is the key. Set a standard of what it looks like for greatness on your team. What does it look like to be your best? What does it look like to get better? What does it look like to grow? What does it look like to keep improving? What does that high performance look like? That's your standard. Then you can show how you're not meeting that standard. As we always say, you know, the tape doesn't lie. You watch the tape. Well, the practice doesn't lie. The person's behavior doesn't lie. Whether they're going out too much, they're putting their personal life and having fun more important than. Than the team success, whatever it may be. You show what the standard looks like and show what their behavior and their attitude and their performance looks like. Show the gap and then say, all right, we have to challenge you to. To reach the standard. We're going to encourage you and support you, but we got to challenge you and push you or you won't be on the team or you're going to not be a starter on the team, or whatever it may be. We need you to meet and reach the standard. So once you lead to the standard, everything is so much easier. When you're Pointing out what the standard is, what the expectations are. This is what we expect from you, and this is what you can expect from me. It's really simple. There's an agreement there. As a leader, the leader says, hey, as a leader, I'm going to do X, Y and Z. And this is what you can expect from me as a leader, to be a great leader. And. And then this is what I expect from you as my team. And this is what you should expect from each other. And then when the team is. Is going through their season peer to peer, accountability is key. And you have to make sure that you're a family that loves each other, but then a team that makes each other better. You need both. Because if you're just all about love and support, but you never challenge each other, you're going to have good performance, you're going to have some growth, but you won't have great growth. So I always ask teams, do you want growth or great growth? For growth, encouragement, support and love will help you grow. For great growth, we gotta challenge you. We gotta make you uncomfortable, and we gotta push you. We gotta show you when you're not living up to the standard and your potential. And if you really love someone, if you truly love someone, you're not going to let them settle for anything but their best. And if that person truly loves the team and loves their teammates, they're going to give everything they have to the team. This is why it's one of the commitments. We've got to commit to getting better together. And we have to make that commitment. And if we do, we will go to greater heights as a team.

See, these are the kind of discussions that need to be happening right in preseason, like when we're first getting together, what are we committed to and developing that connection first, as you say. But then, like, what are we actually committed to? And then the conversation is, how do we hold ourselves accountable to those commitments?

Boom. And it's such a simple conversation, but I'm amazed how many teams don't have it. And it's one of the reasons why I wrote the book, the Seven Commitments of a Great Team. You will go in with your team, you read the book, you talk about the commitments, and you up front say, this is how we're going to commit to staying positive. It's one of the commitments. When challenges come our way, how will we stay positive and handle the adversity? You make the commitment up front. This is how we're going to commit to getting better and growing. Okay, great. We're Going to do this. This is how we're going to commit to having difficult conversations that we didn't have in order to grow. Everyone agrees to those you're agreeing up front. So now when stuff happens, all of a sudden, the team doesn't fall apart, which is what happens too often. Now, when stuff happens, you've already made a plan on how you're going to deal with it.

No, I love it. I'm going to commit to something right now, John. I'm going to take the seven commitments and I'm going to take them into a provincial sports team that I work with in preseason, and we're going to double down and work on it, carry it right through the season, give you.

An update at the end. That's exciting. I want to hear how it goes. I want to hear how it goes.

I'll give you a little update for sure. Now, this idea that teams, great teams, excellent teams, commit to giving their best. I mean, I firmly believe in that. And standards are important in this because the standard they walk past is the one that they accept. So we got to uphold the standards. You mentioned, I think, a best effort equation. Am I right? Tell me more about that.

Yeah. The best effort equation is it's actually your. You're being your best formula. And we often talk about being your best. And what's part of that? Well, there's Consistency is important. Discipline is important. Your effort is important. Your.

Purpose is important. But what's the greatest part of this formula? It's definitely devotion. When I'm devoted, then discipline is so much easier. It's hard to be disciplined when you don't have devotion. It's like you're swimming upstream, climbing uphill. No one had to make Tom Brady throw the football. No one has to make the best soccer player. Who's the best soccer player right now in the world?

You know, you go, ronaldo, a messiah.

Yeah. No one had to make Messi practice, right. He's devoted to his craft. He's devoted to his sport. He loves it. And in that devotion comes discipline to be great, discipline to get better, discipline to practice. And so often, coaches are yelling at their team, saying, you got to be disciplined. You're not disciplined. You're not disciplined. No. Let's go to the heart. Let's go to the person's driving force. Let's go to their essence. That devotion, if they're truly devoted, will drive their discipline. So to be your best, you've got to have the devotion. You gotta have the effort. You gotta have consistency. You gotta Discipline, but you got, oh, you gotta have care too, that caring more is key. Like great teams, great leaders, great performers, they care more than everyone else because they care more. They do more. So devotion and the caring part is what will drive the other factors of being your best.

That's so powerful. It's interesting, as you were sharing, that connected me with just a past memory. So as a kid, all I wanted to do was become the World Solo Drumming Champion. And so I was like, I got to do it, I got. So I was devoted, ridiculously, obsessively to winning this World Championship. So I get to win the world championship at 13, again at 14. Then I get to come to New Zealand, 12,000 miles away from home. I arrive here as a teenager to try and help a school become the first ever World Champions from New Zealand to go to Scotland and win the World Championships. And I thought it's all about skills. Like, they've got to be disciplined. I did exactly what you said. So I'm 18, 19, I'm like, you got to be disciplined, give them the skills. They go to the World Championships and they come third. I'm like, okay, that's close, but it's not a World Championship. We come back and I go, what was missing? They got nervous, okay, it was all a mindset thing was all in the mind. So we worked on mindset, developed those skills, went back, came fifth. Wow, we're going backwards. What's going on? And I started asking them what's, what went on? What were you thinking, what were you feeling? Says James. We're too scared. Like, we can't beat the world's best. They've been winning it for 95 years. How can us Kiwis go to Scotland and beat the best at their own game? It was this heart set thing that was missing. So what I did is exactly what you mentioned. Get them out of their heads, into their hearts. I started sharing stories and what drives them. Following year they go and they win the World Championship and they're still first and only. It was a good time, but not my secret sauce. Just the fact that they were able to like uncover those three things. You got to have skills, good mindset, but heart set, you got to unlock that. So that's what you're masterful at. You can help military units, corporates, small teams, large teams, families, sports teams do that. If there was one thing you could do, show someone right now who's a leader of a team or a coach, what's the one thing they can do to help get people from head to heart.

It's so simple. And as you were saying it, I'm thinking, you know, it's my favorite strategy. It's the greatest strategy of all. And what your. What your team needed. You know what, what those drummers needed was love. To focus on love instead of fear. They were nervous about the outcome. Their identity was being attacked. We're not enough. That's a place of fear. What will people think? We can't meet these expectations. We can't live up to it, or we're not good enough. But here's the key, and I share this with all my top athletes. Love casts out fear. The minute you focus on love, fear actually dissipates. So to get to that higher state of mind, it's part of the one truth that I told you about to read that once you start focusing on love, fear divides, love unites and connects. So the minute you focus on love, you're a connected whole individual, more powerful, stronger, higher state of mind. And you're operating from a place of inside out instead of outside in. You're not worried about what the outside world thinks or what anyone thinks. You're worried about inside. Well, you're not even worried about it. You're living from the inside. There's the power, there's the strength, there's the love, there's the joy. And you're just doing what you're here to do, displaying your talent and your gift. The minute I focus on the outside and I'm fearful of what people think, worried about the expectation, worried about messing up, worried about failure, literally that fear is consuming me. I'm not going to perform at a high level, but the minute I focus on love, so I tell athletes or any high performer, love competing. Don't worry about the outcome. You just love competing in that moment. Love. Love performing love. Love what you do and what you're here to do. Love that opportunity. Love the people you're doing it with. And if you do that, man, that love will cast out the fear. You'll be in a higher state of mind and you will perform at a higher level. As you saw with, with your drummers, they were. They were devoted to it. They loved it. They didn't feel the fear. Maybe initially they did, but the fear dissipates. And now they're operating in love and they're performing at a higher level.

Yeah, beautifully put. And it's interesting, when I look back at that win, I remember the moment they were announced and, you know, there's maybe, I don't know, 30,000 people in the arena and they get announced as world champions. That meant more to me and that had more of an emotional impact than all the world championships I'd won myself. They were great and fun, but seeing these kids do that like that was. There was a connection, there was a love there. And still, you know, they're grown adults now. Still, the connection I've got with them is pretty phenomenal.

I'm blown away that you were a world champion too. I mean, that's so cool that you had this obsession to do this and you made that happen. That's where you obviously came up with your mental constructs for yourself to be able to accomplish this. And now you've helped others with it. That's pretty incredible what you've been able to do and have that, have that performance mindset to, to draw back on. Some have, some in sports psychology have been golfers, others extreme sports people like you were the drummer. That's really cool.

Ah, thank you. Yeah. And I've been inspired by some of those, you know, the Timothy Galway's the Inner Game of Golf, Inner Game of Music. And it's been incredible. Just their insights, they certainly shaped me. Tony Robbins, when I was a kid, I was kind of geeking out in his cassette tips, as you do when you're a kid.

You know, I've never been a Tony guy. Isn't that funny? I've never been a Tony guy, but I know a lot of my friends love Tony, but I've never been. He's. He, he wasn't the one who moved me into doing this or inspired me, but I know he's inspired a lot of people.

Who was the person that moved you?

You know.

Ken Blanchard, who wrote the One Minute Manager and Raving Fans and so many other Best Selling books. He was the one who inspired me to want to be a writer and speaker and do this kind of work. But to be like the, on the positive side of things and, and this encourager, I would just say that was just something that I just started receiving downloads on and ideas were just coming to me. And then the wild thing is, as I started doing this work, I got asked to write for Norman Vincent Peale's magazine, Guide Post and Positive Thinking Magazine. And I never read Norman Vincent Peale stuff, but then as I did, I read it to prepare for writing these articles for the magazine. I'm like, wow, he was talking about these things 50 years ago, 60 years ago. And I had the same thoughts and the same ideas that would come to me not Having read his stuff. So I thought, well, I know I'm here to do this. The Energy Bus was something I was meant to share with the world and I didn't chose it, it chose me and I'm thankful it did. And it's wild that it shows a very negative, naturally negative person like me to do this work because I'm actually naturally negative and had to work to be positive. But that's what made me a good teacher because I know what it's like to be negative and I know how to overcome it, just like you. So then we can help other people overcome it.

Thank you for sharing that. It's cool to know who informed your thinking and the Energy Bus. I'm going to say, I guess two things to the listener or the viewer right now. One, just go into the show notes right now and in those show notes you're going to see two links. One is to buy the Energy Bus. You've got one of the Think, Think and Grow Rich is one of the all time, you know, big books. Energy Bus is the other one. You've got to have the book next. The link in there is to buy the seven commitments of a great team. It's just going to transform your ability to lead your teams. So, John, I just want to say it's awesome actually kind of going into the thick of what it means to lead now when it comes to sport and things aren't going well and it's got to turn things around quickly. What's the one commitment that's most important, the one that they've got to remember.

When you have to turn around things quickly.

It's definitely the commitment to stay positive through challenges one in your short term, like in that moment, the choice between negative and positive. But then I would add the commitment to the vision and mission. The minute you face adversity and challenge, it's about looking forward. Why am I doing this and where am I going? I'm not going to let this obstacle get in the way. When you know your why, you'll know the way. And you're not going to let that obstacle to keep you from going where you want to go. So it's just knowing that and that vision and mission is like a reminder. It's a refresher. I call it telescope, microscope. Telescope's the big picture. Vision microscope's the zoom, focus, action. So each day I'm focusing in the short term, but I got to keep my eye also on the big picture when things don't go well. And I have that initial Setback. So staying positive and commit to the vision and mission of where you're going and why you're going there.

Beautiful. And I get a sense from the work that you've done. So you've got, I don't know, maybe 15 books or more. Bestselling.

Total books. 32 total books now.

My God. Okay, that just doubles my thinking.

This is incredible, right? Yeah.

So to me, you're not a short game player, you're a long game player. How important is it to think long game and just to stay in the game?

Oh, it's everything. I mean, a great example of that is I just had an event called training camp. It was John Gordon's training camp. And I had Sean McVeigh come, the LA Rams head coach who won a Super Bowl. I had Mack Brown, the legendary football coach at University of Texas and also North Carolina. This is American football. Then Buzz Williams, basketball coach. College basketball coach. Billy Donovan, who is going to be inducted into the Naismith hall of Fame. Coming up, Dabo Sweeney, the coach of Clemson football, two national championships. Kevin o', Connell, who just won coach of the year for the Minnesota Vikings. Came Trent Dilfer, who's been on ESPN and also a head coach and a Super bowl champion. Corey Close, the UCLA women's basketball coach. All these people came. Jim Rome, the famous broadcaster, came as well. Jay Glazer, the broadcaster. So it was event called training camp and they all came and shared. People could not believe that I brought together all these incredible iconic leaders into one event. Like how it happened. Like it was years and years of pouring into them, years and years of investing in them, helping them with their leadership, helping their teams get better. And after all those years, you develop the kind of relationships where when I decided to have this event, I said, hey, will you come speak? Yeah, love it, John. I'll be there. Yeah, I'll be there. They all said yes. They all said yes. It would have cost a million dollars to have them all in one room like that. And I was able to have them all there together. And they loved hanging out with each other, they loved speaking. And I realized that's been my journey of life. It hasn't been a short term success. It's been a long game, as you just said, a long game of doing the right thing. Showing up, making a difference, living. Three words that I wrote about in the Carpenter. Love, serving care. You love people, you love what you do. You look to serve people. You show you care. You do that, your business is going to exponentially grow over time. Love Serve care is not the immediate success strategy, it's the long term success strategy. It's also how you leave a legacy. So that's how I lived my life. That's how I've done it. And this event was the culmination and it brought. When it first started at Matthew west, the famous musician started playing. He came and played music. I cried, I teared up because I'm like my whole life came to this one moment with all these amazing people who I love. The best coaches in the world, the best leaders all hanging out together. Boom. Now we gotta, we gotta do another one. James, we gotta do one like maybe in your part of the world and do a training camp and bring all of those folks together on that part. I'd come for that. If we can create something like that, that'd be pretty cool.

Consider it done. Let's make it a bit.

Let's go.

Hell yeah. I love that. That's, that's so inspiring and just bringing that kind of energy into the room that is the insights, the wisdom. And you're right, they're not gonna just be sharing, they're going to be learning from other great minds as well. So everyone wins in that setting.

Billy Donovan came and spoke again. He remember he just got inducted into the hall of Fame and he spoke and he goes, I'm going to stay. I want to take notes. Amazing Dabo Sweeney's like, hey, I want to hear Sean speak. I can't wait to hear him speak. They were all taking notes on each other and the other members of the audience were business leaders. So I brought all these top coaches together and then the rest of the audience were top business leaders from around the United States and Canada and some other countries. And people are all there to learn and grow from the sports leaders, from the business leaders, plus they're all hanging out together. It was a really cool kind of event.

We're going to replicate that in Australia, New Zealand. 100%. Let's do it.

I'll be there.

Can I ask you, how do you do all of what you've done? 30 odd books impacting millions of people, and still balance your health and your relationships with your family?

I walk every day and I get up in the morning. So I walk in the morning and I pray. I practice gratitude. I pray. So doing that every day has kept me healthy. I eat right, which is important, so really eat healthy. After a lot of digestive and gut health issues years ago, it forced me to eat right. So I had to learn how to eat really good. Healthy foods and have a proper nutrition. So that's been key. I think that was a blessing, even though at the time, it. It was not fun, that I couldn't eat pizza, couldn't eat all the foods that I wanted to eat hamburgers, could eat. Now I could eat steak. Now I can eat meat. Now I can eat pizza. Now I can eat pretty much whatever I want. But for years, I couldn't. So I think that actually helped me stay healthy. And it's. It's a. A devotion to what I'm here to do and a calling. So I wake up every day knowing what I'm doing, and there's no separation between my work life and my personal life. People say that you should have that, but I don't. There's no. This is who I am. This is what I do. When we get done, I'll probably call someone in 10, 20 minutes, and it'll be a conversation just like this, because that's my life. And my wife is part of the business, and she speaks. And we wrote a book, Relationship Grit. My daughter is now a speaker. She's incredible. She worked with Auburn Golf to help help him win the SEC championship. She did a great connection exercise with them that was the key to their success. So she does this now. She speaks. Bring my daughter overseas. She loves to travel, by the way. She's 26, 26 dynamic, really great speaker. Never thought she would be. By the way, was. The girl was terrified to speak. Never thought she would do this work. Hated positivity. Was like, come on, dad, that's annoying. And this is what she's doing now, and it's great to watch. And my son works with me in our business of cert. We sell certifications, and we help develop positive leaders who go out and train other leaders around the world. And so my son's been doing that. So now I have my whole family, which shows like, this is not a business. This is our way of life. So I think that's the key. There's a devotion to it. There's a purpose to it. And every day I get up ever since, you know, 20 something years ago, knowing what I'm here to do and then just doing it and building it over time, and then honestly, by the grace of God, the creator of the universe. I am not the creator of the universe. And I'm not here by accident. I know that you're not here by accident. So the creator of the universe, I believe, has been a huge part of my life, and keeping me healthy, keeping me strong. There's a lot of faith there as well.

Beautiful. Thanks for sharing that. It's so interesting about a nine year old boy. And he watches what I do and I bring him often along when I'm speaking or. And he gets to. So about six months ago he interviewed our prime minister after I'd interviewed him. And these opportunities, I want to like, make him realize this. Work and play, same thing, work and life, it's like it's all interchangeable. So I love what you're saying and you're demonstrating. You're many years down the track from me. It's really inspiring to see how you do that.

And James, they're watching. This is a great lesson for anybody listening. Your kids are watching you. Because I never thought my kids would want to get into this. I never thought my daughter would speak. So they were watching me all these years and I wasn't realizing they were even watching me. So the fact that they were and they saw that it was real and that there was an integration of who I was and this work that made them want to do it. So it's wild to think that they never told me they want to do it, but somehow they just started helping us and working with us and. And doing it. My daughter would call me up that one day and said, I want to speak. I'm like, really? I go, don't do this because you think I want you to do this. Like, I only want you to do this if you feel called to do this. And she's like, no, that I feel called. She met a woman at the restaurant while she was a hostess. My daughter was a hostess. And the woman told her to stop living in fear. She's meant to do something greater and there's a plan and a purpose for her life. And told my daughter, I see you speaking all over the world and. And had no idea that my daughter was, was, you know, had me as a dad. And my daughter called me up and said, dad, I want to do this. I'm like, really? She goes, yeah, I feel like it's my calling. And she stepped into it. Boom.

That's beautiful.

Yeah. So you just, your kids are watching and you just never know. People say, you must be so proud. No, I'm not proud. I'm amazed at what God can do because I never thought she would do this and now she stepped into it and she's dynamic. And to why I watched her the other day speak because she spoke right before I did. And I'm like, wow, she's gonna be taking over my job in a couple of short years. And I. And I thought, like. And I thought I saw the way the crowd interacted with her and her presence, and I was like, wow, she's just meant to do this. It blew me away.

That's beautiful. I can't wait to see her speak. It's gonna be awesome.

Yeah, she's great. She's good.

Now, just a couple of final questions before we wrap up. So, what's the best team you've ever worked with? And why?

I can't say, like, the best team. Like, that'd be like picking one of your favorite kids.

But, like, my team I've worked with the most over the years is Clemson football, who won two national championships, University of Clemson and Dabo Sweeney. Thirteen straight years. I've worked with them every year, speaking during training camp. So I would say that's the one I have the closest bond and the greatest connection to.

That's beautiful. Then you go check them out. And what does John Gordon do when he's lost his spark?

And by the way, Dabo Sweeney, one of the greatest leaders I've ever met in the world. I'm sure you have some great leaders over there. Dabo Sweeney, one of the greatest leaders you'll ever meet. Everyone who meets him is blown away of the kind of leader he is. Dabo Sweeney. If you could spend time with him and learn from him. Every leader in every sport will get so much from Dabo Sweeney. And people in America know the kind of leader he is. Off the charts. So incredible. I feel very fortunate to call him a friend and someone I've worked with all these years. What do I do when I lose my spark? I only lose my spark for maybe a day or two. And it might be just something bad happening. Might be waking up in a bad mood, not getting enough sleep. I played a lot of pickleball the last two days. I woke up today just a little ornery, just tired. And I. What do I do? I remind myself this. That this, too shall pass. I'm a pessimistic optimist. So I may be down in the moment, but then there's a moment an hour later, two hours later, three hours later, where I go. You know what it's going to be? It's going to be great. Like, great things are coming. So I'm always believing that the best is yet to come, no matter what I'm going through. And I remember my purpose. We don't get burned out because of what we do. We get burned out because we forget why we do it. So remember that purpose, and I think that's key. So I just remind myself of my purpose. And if all else fails, I go to sleep that night knowing that tomorrow's a new day. And usually by the next day, you're fine. I think too often we're on that roller coaster, and when we're going down the roller coaster, we think we're gonna crash, so we jump off. And a lot of people escape, and they escape with drugs and drinking and all sorts of addictions to escape that low state of mind they're in. That feeling they have. When I'm in that low state, I don't escape. I just stay on the roller coaster and I just keep riding it. And eventually what happens is you ride it right back up to a higher state of mind. Don't jump off, don't try to fix things. Nothing's broken. Just stay in the roller coaster. And more often than not, the next day, you're fine.

That's beautiful. Such good advice. And it's interesting. I used to use alcohol a lot of in my younger years to kind of manage my emotions and stresses and celebrations. Bought a. Five years ago, just over five years ago, I decided, let's give it a crack with no alcohol. My God. It's been a different level of clarity, energy, fun. It's been awesome.

I don't drink. I don't drink. I mean, I'll have a glass of wine once in a while, maybe a couple times a year. Tequila, maybe a couple times a year. And that's it, you know, a couple times with my good friend Ed Mylett, we'll drink a little tequila together occasionally, very occasionally, but hardly ever drink. And I don't. I don't rely on it. And I never do anything to make my mood better. Like, my wife will even say, you'll suffer in the feeling you have. And I will. But I think there's value to that. Like, I'm not escaping it. I'm moving through it. I think we try to fix things, we try to escape. That's what hurts us because we're actually giving power to the circumstance. The key is to know that you are more powerful than your circumstance and that we're in a high state of mind. The circumstance actually has no power over you. And when you're in a low state, it has no power over you, but you just think it does. And so you're giving that circumstance power, and that's why you're reaching for that. That substance. So you stopping drinking, me not drinking. We know that our true power, where it comes from, and every time you turn into something else. Here's the key, James. It gives you relief, but it doesn't give you restoration. And we want restoration. And so stop seeking relief. Focus on restoration.

Long game again, right? It's not these short wins. Yeah, I love that. Now, one final question. I want you to imagine you and I going to fast forward many years into the future. You're highly aware it's your very last day here on Earth, and someone very young that you love dearly walks into the room and says, john, how do I go about leading my life on purpose? What would you say to them?

Wow. I would say, first and foremost, I'm eating pizza right now because it's my last day on Earth, so I want to have some really good pizza. What would be the best food that I would have in your country, by the way? What would be something that I would look to eat there?

I would say, you know, pizza is a pretty big deal here, but lamb is a very big export from New Zealand. So, like, a roast lamb would be pretty.

I love lamb. All right, give me some lamb and, like, basmati rice, maybe.

There you go.

Okay. So. So I would have some of that, and then I would say to that person.

Read my book, the Carpenter. It's. It's the greatest success principles of all. Like, it's everything I wrote. Like to. To create your life, like, to build your masterpiece. I would say, read the Carpenter. And I would. I would say.

Life is magical. Life is a gift, not an obligation. Life is what you make it. Your beliefs determine your reality. What you tune into every day determines ultimately what you will achieve, what you think you become as a person thinks they become. I would say the brain is an antenna. You're either tuning into the negative or the positive. There are two main frequencies in this world, positive frequency and negative frequency. So tune into that positive frequency on a daily basis, and that will change the trajectory of your life. As you tune into that positive, it uplifts you, it encourages you. It takes you to that higher state of mind, and you. You operate at a higher frequency when you do that. My voice is definitely losing. I'm losing my voice. But I would say that. That that's what you ultimately do to get to that higher state, higher frequency. And I would say, Romans 8, 5, 6. This sums up our entire existence. A mind governed by the flesh leads to death. A mind governed by the spirit leads to life and peace. What is governing your mind? The things of this world. The tribulations the challenges, the adversity, the fame, the greed, the money. Is that's what's driving you? Or is the spirit, the love, the spirit, the life, the joy, the spiritual nature, a higher calling, a higher purpose, a devotion, a God? If that's what's driving you, that's going to bring you peace and power. If the flesh drives you, that's going to lead to destruction and despair. So that really is the ultimate choice we have every single day. So choose life, choose peace, choose power, choose spirit. That's why my prayer walks are so important every morning. When I'm walking every morning, I'm literally connecting to a greater spirit, a greater power. And as I'm doing that, there is so much wisdom and strength that comes through me, that flows through me. It brings me to a higher state. I am now ready to take on the day versus focusing on today's worries and the paper and the news and all the negativity that's going to bring you down. So think about it. Paper or God? I'm going to. I'm going to. I'm going to focus on the God who actually writes the best stories. Not the paper. That's right, negative stories.

Such good advice. John. What you've just said is so powerful and I feel like you've changed the trajectory of so many listeners and viewers lives just in this last hour. So if people have enjoyed that, I'm going to get them to follow you. I'll put all your socials in our show notes. Follow you. They've got to buy. I wrote down here the carpenter, the one truth, the commitments of a great team and energy bus, which is originally what brought me to you. These will be the best investments. It'll cost you the price of a meal and a bottle of wine to get all those books, so please get them. But John, a huge thanks for what you do for all of us. Sincerely appreciate you.

Hey, thank you, James. This was a lot of fun. Thanks for sharing. Thanks for the work that you do. It's great to meet a kindred spirit across the. We call it the pond across, across the water. Making the difference you're making. Can't wait to visit. I've never been there. I want to come. So let's do a training camp event.

It's gonna happen. Thanks, John.