How to Overcome Your FEAR of Public Speaking with Michael Philpott

Are good speakers born? No. No, they're not. The average reading comprehension age in New Zealand is 12 to 14 years old. The key is simple language. I want to know the secret to what I just did at the age of five in an orphanage. You had to be brutal, you know, because you were raised in this brutality. My escape from that, to cover the pain of all of that, was to end up with a class A heroin addiction. That was my most punishing experience. Not knowing whether it would kill me or not. I was crawling on the floor half dead. My turning point was when I decided to.

Michael, a huge welcome to the Lead On Purpose podcast.

Thanks, Ben.

I'm so glad to have you here.

I'm so stoked to be here.

It's taken a wee while for us to do it because I have to say, you an in demand human.

Thanks.

New Zealand's number one speaker coach and incredible communicator professor of practice at University of Canterbury, which is very new.

So I'm still very excited. I don't think I'll even not be excited about it.

Oh, what an honour. And it really, to me, it's a credit to what you've achieved and what you've done. And, you know, for everyone that's looking on, whether they're in New Zealand or whether they're overseas, I know that you've got some gold to share with them about how to communicate more powerfully and more authentically. In fact, I'm going to take it from communicate because this is one thing I think you do well, you help people to communicate, which allows them to deeply connect. Go from communication to connection. That's your superpower.

It is one of the superpowers. Yeah. We'll be. Thank you. Thank you for the intro. And we've been having heaps of coffees leading up to this. Right. And it's been really cool. The superpower parts of it. Yes, it is that connection aspect.

I've recently been discovering that there's a little bit more to it than that as well, which is I was just talking to someone the other day and they described it as being able to look around the corner when it comes to helping people develop their content. So oftentimes, and this is a thing that I've. A distinction I made, which was, do you choose to go down the psychology path of, like, understanding people and helping people individually, or do you go down the coaching path where you help people tell amazing, incredibly powerful stories of hope? And it's like I found that my superpower is going down that road and Touching on psychology of what's prohibiting people from taking that next step.

But then we tie back to the talk always. And the seeing around the corner is seeing that deeper part within the people that just needs to be pulled out and then put on stage with their message.

Every great leader, like when I'm talking great, the Mandelas, the Obamas, they have a way of communicating and connecting with an audience that clearly someone has helped them to see around that corner so that they can communicate in such a powerful way. Would you agree with that?

100%. Obama, his speaker coach, is a very probably unknown person, which is interesting because he spends a lot of his time in the background. Michael Sheehan is the coach of presidents and they have them that. I remember reading that he was too quick with his speaking. Now you think of Obama now measured. It's like he is not quick with his speaking. He is very measured, very specific in his pause and very powerful with how he speaks. All of that was coached.

Incredible. It's interesting you bring up Michael Sheehan. So there's this idea of Sheehan's wall. And so communicators, people who are, whether they're thought leaders, they're CEOs, doesn't matter what they are, they want to speak and they want to influence others. But what happens is there's this wall. Sheehan's wall is if you try to communicate on 30 different topics, you're an expert in none of them. And what happens is you keep banging off the wall. But when you can go through Sheehan's wall, that's when you're an absolute expert leader, maybe even guru in that field or area. And once you get through the wall, you're no longer obscure. And when you're no longer obscure, you can actually talk about other topics then. But people tend to be more of everything. And I've got this and I'll sort this.

Exactly. So.

Know your why. Who is it? We know who it is because that's their key message, right? That was the message over and over and over and over again so that people understand that that is what that person is really well known for. There's a power in. There's a power that is quite unique and we get lost with it. And that is the power of rinse, repeat, refine. How do you become the greatest speaker? Rinse, repeat, refine. That's it. And what's tough is one, finding the key point of the message. What is the key that ties everything together and goes from being a talk about individuals to a global. Because that's what we're doing, right, we're going global. We include everyone in the way that we speak. And then once we've found that where we can talk to everyone now we just keep going and repeat it and refine it. But the whole. I've got 30 messages, you do them once or twice and they're average at best. You don't get to repeat and refine them, so they all kind of fall flat. We. Whereas really seriously good speakers will have probably five key subjects or talks on very. Like, all those subjects will all come back to one place.

Always through line there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they'll always tie in. But those talks, they'll just repeat and repeat and repeat. It's really funny because I was thinking about this as I grew up learning how to speak and how to present and how to facilitate from my trainer and I traveled New Zealand, Australia, Canada, the US training with him and watching him speak. And I watched him give the same talk over and over and over again. And there was a little point where I had this feeling of, like, it just feels a bit strange, you know, it's like I feel a bit robbed because it's the same talk. And then I sat back for a while and looked at it and went, Every time I've seen him speak, I had the first time, the experience of watching him speak and being in the audience, and it was just like, you know, you were there. You were just like sucked into the whole thing. The second time it was like, oh, I see what he did there. Oh, that was cool. And then the third time, oh, I see what he did. Oh, there's more. There are layers to what this person's doing. And the more and more I watched, it was like, it's just more layers that had to be pulled apart to understand the precision in which this person had, over 20 years, crafted what they did.

It's like a good movie, right?

Exactly like a good movie.

Four or five times you start to see little things like, oh, that's so cheeky. I didn't see that the first time.

The open loops and the closed loops, you don't realize how many times they've done an open and closed loop on you. And you watch it for the fourth time and you're like, I didn't see that the first time. And speaking is like that. Someone who can speak really well can deliver that same talk over and over. And even someone who's seen it many, many times will still take value from it because they're just seeing the level of depth and How I came to the actual like, okay, how do I come to terms with this? Was most people own a CD or, you know, and it's like, yes, you own a CD or you've got something you've bought on itunes or whatever, and you listen to it and you love it and you sing along to it and you know every word.

If they decided to come to your country and host a concert, would you go?

Yeah, you would. It's like, why? You've heard it, you own it, you know the words. And it's like, because you want the atmosphere, you want the overall experience. And that's what good speaking is, is the experience that you bring and the people and the whole part of it that requires hard work to get that though, 100%.

And I want to talk in a minute just about what good speaking is.

And what it isn't.

But for the listener right now and the person watching, the question I want to ask is, are good speakers born? Were you born just with the ability to be world class speaking and has your life always been rosy and merry?

Two questions. Are good speakers born? No, no, they're not. Good speakers are made. Yes, there will be certain attributes of childhood that might help towards.

Maybe having a slight advantage over other people. And that might be your. I mean, in my humble opinion, it might be your level of empathy. Because being a great speaker is about understanding the needs of others. Yeah. Most of the not good speakers I've seen are more focused on their own need, which is the difference. Right. Has mine all been plain sailing and have I been this way? No, for sure. My ability to speak was cut off at the age of five in an orphanage. Yeah. So I think my younger years, I was probably a little bit gregarious, flamboyant, expressive. And then at 5, just got shut down.

You lost that voice.

I 100 lost it. And it took me.

I think I was 24, 25 maybe when I started getting it back. Yeah. And it was through I was studying outdoor education, outdoor recreation, outdoor. I'd found my kind of passion, which was people. Right. Like helping people overcome huge fears in the outdoors, life or death situations. Ironic.

That was my pursuit. But part of the pursuit was that we had to give three presentations as part of our training because we were going to have to speak in front of people. And that was where I really stepped into it and went, there is power here. That there was something I did that no one else who was studying did. They just didn't do what I did. And I saw the outcome of what I Did and went, wow, that is incredible. I want to know the secret to what I just did.

Where does that power, that power that you talk about, where do you think that came from?

So where it came from was.

To give the better understanding the talks, right? So the three talks I gave, all of my companions in training, when they found out they had to give these talks, they just went out and grabbed brochures on Mac packs, you know, Mac pack equipment, mountain bikes, and the inner workings of ski bindings. Riveting subjects they put no effort in. And I. I watched them stand in front of our group of people, and this was our group, we're all friends, right? And I. I watched them speak and just read, and I watched the group just shuffle and get bored and get restless. And I watched as the more they shuffled and got restless, the more the speaker began to shake and get nervous. And I watched it and just went, yeah, I don't want that to happen. Right? So I went to my lecturers and I said, do I have to speak on outdoor stuff? And they were like, no, you can speak about whatever you want. And I was like, cool. So the first presentation speech I ever gave was on the fascinating subject of spontaneous human combustion.

Wow.

Yeah. And it was a huge passion for me. Like, I really loved the subject. And when I delivered it, I was watching them and they were like, that's amazing. You know, that's an incredible subject. And I feed more off seeing them engaged. But I was already engaged. And I put a lot of preparation into it. I prepared. I was enthusiastic when I did it. And that was the difference was.

All the preparation I put in finding a subject that was very interesting to me, but also very interesting to them, and then having their engagement and how it impacted me back. I had the room, just an energy in the room that was of interest and intrigue. My second presentation I ever gave was on child pornography and pedophilia in Asian countries. Wow. So huge shift, right? So I've gone from being this to being really very respectful in the way that I'm saying it. Very, very careful in how I'm crafting what I'm talking about. And the reaction was pure focus. You know, a room full of people that are just, like, just focused. It's silent, and they're focused and they're listening and they're taking it in. And that was a very powerful moment. And then my final one was male rape statistics in Australia, where At the time, 1 in 13 reported cases were male. Again, another different response. I had focus and silence and all the men were looking at the ground, and it was just like that moment was just touching on the edge of the. The secret art and magic and power of speaking. And literally, it was like, that is incredible to see that difference. And like I say, that's. That's where the journey started to. I want to know more about how that happened, how that worked, what was it? And I discovered the answer 25 years later. Yeah. After a journey to find that answer, which I've recently found out.

And look, I think that speaks to your value of mastery. And I only get to observe your values from the outside. You know your values from the inside. But as someone who observes you and connects with you and respects you, I see mastery as being a big part of your excellence. Like, you're continually refining, continually asking questions, curiosity, learning. How important is that for you to continue to be the best speaker, coach, to be the best communicator, to be on that journey of mastery?

Mastery, for someone like me in particular, is. Is a key to my success. As in because of. So Neurodiverse, adhd. Right. My nature. Everything about my nature says, go hunt down shiny, interesting things. Right. And you become a master of none. There are lots of interest pieces that are going on, and you can get lost in them. They're very interesting, but you don't master anything. My turning point was when I decided to really dive, and it was like, I know everything. I know what I want to talk about. I can be really specific and concise with it. I feel really confident in my space. Why? Because I'm focused on mastery. And my ADHD just goes, thank you. Like, literally, it's like, thanks, you've just made my life a lot easier. I oftentimes I'll have people say to me, oh, there's a really cool book you should read on this. And I'm like, does that make me better at mastering what I do? And if the answer is yeah, yeah. It's like, if the answer is no, then it's like, I'm on an ideas diet. Like, I don't need any more ideas. My brain is perfectly able to do that on its own. My job is to rein it in and go, this is focused on what I do, my mastery.

So, Michael, for the listener that's listening right now, I want them to kind of understand what you mean by Neurodiverse. What are the stats around Neurodiverse and what does it actually mean?

Yep. So the stats are currently at a global level. We have 15 to 20% of people on the planet wow. Are diagnosed neurodiverse and neurodiverse is on a spectrum right through to autism. I'm on the spectrum as adhd, which is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. I've been through the full process of having diagnosis by a psychologist. So a psychologist will interview you, interview your friends, your family. They need all your documentation from school, everything that you can provide.

They then give their diagnosis and then they forward it to a psychiatrist who then evaluates their evaluation and gives you an answer to whether or not you actually have adhd. And then what the remedies, potential remedies are for that. ADHD is a conversation. I have a lot with a lot more people. I'm publicly open about it. However, I've met people my age, male and female, who are scared to death of anyone ever finding out that they might have adhd. They personally see it as a fault or a lacking that they are different. Whereas we are now starting to see more and more. Someone was speaking at the university the other day when I was there, and they were saying that you can see a 20% increase in results from your business if you have just by having more neurodiverse people within your.

It makes sense. And I guess for me, a really important reason why we talk about this right now is for the listener that's listening. You know, you're communicating to people that are all different. Not everyone wants to be communicated the same way. And you say that 15 to 20%. Well, that's just what we know. It's probably sitting around that 25, 30%. So we're at a quarter of the global population is neurodiverse. And so that must then mean that we have to be conscious of how we communicate 100%.

So the easiest way to kind of to view it would be on a spectrum. So at this end you would have neurotypical, which would be a certain way of communicating that is innate to that person and. And they are very comfortable with it. It works to a certain audience. At the other end of the scale, or spectrum, you've got neurodiverse, which is where I started out. Right now, the way that I used to communicate down here would be a million thoughts all at once coming out of my brain and I'm trying to filter them as I speak. But I'm enthusiastic and very excited and the receiver is.

Kind of. They're attracted to my enthusiasm but cannot get my message. Yes, at the other end there's a concise, clear message with no enthusiasm or.

Passion or life by the pants office over there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. So you've got these two ends and the work that we're looking at that we're doing is bringing these two closer together.

So essentially I want to be dancing in the middle. They're just kind of back and forth 100.

You want to be in the middle. Right. So you want to be neurodiverse, neurotypical. Bring them both together and you have neuro inclusive. So what we're doing is we're taking the clear, concise messaging from here and the enthusiasm and energy and passion from here and just migrating them and that way you can speak to everyone. The key is simple language. Yeah. So you can have all the energy and enthusiasm, but if you have too much of the high level over your head language, it doesn't connect. So all the connection comes from the energy, enthusiasm, the concise preciseness of what you want to say, but in a way that everyone can understand. Because the average reading comprehension age in New Zealand is 12 to 14 years old. What? Yes. So, wow. You know, you think about it, it's like if that's the average, then that's our audience target.

Yeah.

You know, there, there's that, you know, standing sort of humor around, you know, speak to them as if they're five year olds. It's like actually 12 to 14 is the age that you're, you're aiming for craft your messaging for a 12 to 14 year old.

What's really fascinating about that, and this comes to mind when you say that is when I think of someone like say Greta Thunberg, Malala Obama, their messaging, when I listen to it, I say I get it, I get their message like that. Whereas when I go and listen to a data scientist or a financial analyst do a keynote, I'm going, am I absolutely like unintelligent and thick? Like I don't get this.

Exactly.

Too much data and too much info.

And that's the point though, right? Is like, how do we disengage an audience? Make them feel dumb.

Yeah.

And what's the benefit in making them feel dumb? Nothing. There's none. What's the benefit in adding one simple line to your talk?

In other words, your, your scientist, data scientists, they can give that message at that very high level. Their academic ego will be fulfilled. The part of the audience that are scientists go here, here. Right. They get that, but then they just add one line, which is in other words, and then they give this simple one.

And that's the goal.

That's the goal. That's everyone gets what they need. The Audience who are non scientists or scientific or just they need that. Basically when they get what they need, they're like, well done. Thank you. Because you respected what I need, I feel safe as an audience member. The other half of the audience go, thank you. We respect the intelligence as well, but the problem is we don't have that happening. We just have that high level. And well, those are my people. It's like, yeah, but your people already know what you're saying. You're not trying to speak to your people, you're trying to speak to the people that don't understand and don't know. And to do that, it takes something that a lot of people aren't willing to do. And that is poe. If it takes effort and empathy to be able to go, how would I say this in a way that will reach my whole audience? So an example would be Edward Lebenberger from Jade, right? So we were working on a talk, an 18 minute talk on artificial intelligence. And I'm like, cool, you just deliver your talk to me currently what you've got. And he delivers it. And I'm like, uh huh. And my brain just goes.

And it's at the point where I switch out that I go, there's a note, you know, and okay, you got me there, but zone out again, cool. And it's like, why was I zoning out? And it's like, well, because I have no concept of what the fundamentals of AI are. And you're talking to another side of the audience. And it's like you've got, you've got potential customer consumers who are judging whether or not they want to work with you based on how well you communicate to them. But if you're leaving them out because you just want to speak to the people in the room who understand AI, well, you're not reaching your target market.

We spent hours and hours and hours and hours just refining how he would add in bits. So we took a piece, right, and it was, what? How does AI actually work? And that was the question I was asking him. How does AI really work? I mean, you're the director of digital, you should know. And he's like, yeah, how does it work? And he said, well, think about it like this. My son, he's 5 years old and his face lights up, right? He's, he's Austrian too. Not a lot, you know, not much facial expression generally, but his face lights up and he's like, My five year old son comes to me and he tells me a joke, right? And how I, I might respond to the joke. Like, that's a really good joke. And what he does is he goes, good joke. And he just puts it into the good joke category over there. And then you'll come to me and he'll tell me another joke and I'll be like. And he'll go, bad joke category. And then he sometimes comes to me and he tells me a joke and I'm like, don't ever tell your mother that joke. It's a good joke, but don't ever tell your mother. And he goes, never tell.

Excellent joke.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Excellent joke. But don't even tell mom. Right? And he's like, that's how AI works. It's pattern detection, recognition.

I get that. Thank you for explaining that to me, Michael.

Exactly right.

Yeah.

That is how it works. And that is the exact story he told in his presentation and his talk. But what happened were key things, which was one, he came alive when he told the story about his son. He became real. He became. You could connect with that on that level. But it also simply explained what something complex was. And as soon as people understood what it did, now they can listen and filter all the rest of the information. Through that example, you've got everyone on board and you're now taking them on a journey.

And that's everyone who's a communicator. That's their responsibility.

Everyone, yeah.

Teachers, parents, all of us, keynote speakers, all always communicating.

It's, you know, getting on stage is just magnifying it to a bigger audience. But we are all stuck in that place where we want to communicate in the way that is most natural and normal for us. And yet we get these barriers. And the barrier is we're just not actually simplifying it for, in consideration of.

The other person, 100%. And when I look at you and what you do in the level you do it at, I'm going to say, I know you're New Zealand's number one sporting coach, but it's world class. And to be world class, I believe, like your days are your life in miniature. And so where you are right now and what you do right now is a product of all the individual days stacked up, all the habits, all the experiences, the wins, the failures, the losses. So just to go deep into the heart a little bit for you, what were some of those big and they could be really positive moments, and they could have been really rock bottom moments. What were some of those days that were tough, that have made you the speaker and the coach that you are?

The day I remember A distinct day that was tough as a speaker. So for three years I watched my boss get on stage when we were delivering a one day intensive personal development program for the American Ambassador program. People to people, right? So we've got American students flying in from all of the states and we have them for one day while they're on their trip through New Zealand and we're doing this intensive personal development program and we take them outdoors, we throw them off a 200 foot cliff. And I'm good at that stuff, right? By now I'm one of the most qualified outdoor guides probably in the world.

I'm Fick pre hospital emergency care with Halivac. I'm qualified in my actual specific abseiling and rock climbing and I'm NLP practitioner and I've been training under Dr. Rich Allen and accelerated adult brain based learning. And I'm an outdoor instructor. Right. So we're the most like, definitely the most qualified guides in the world. Part of the program was that there were presentations done throughout the day. So it was kind of like, have this presentation, do an activity, have a presentation, do an activity. And I watched my boss do them for three years and it came to a point where.

He was like, I need to offload some of this work. I was like, I'm watching and I'm watching. And I'm like, I could do that, I can do that. I know I can do that. I could probably do that a little bit better in some parts too actually.

And we're in Australia, so I, I was put across in Australia to train the other speakers and how to present.

In all facets of what they were doing. Right. But I had to speak and my boss came to me and he was like, you are speaking on Tuesday. And I'm like, okay, so I've got a 20 minute presentation. Great. And it's on the subject of above and below the line. And it's been done in a very, up until now, it's been done in a very structured but dry above and below the line kind of way. And I'm like, I want to own it, right? So I have to come up with how to design the talk. For the first time ever, no one else has ever delivered except for the boss. Ever. And I'm going to be the first person to deliver it. I'm going to deliver it in front of my boss and be evaluated on. And I'm freaking out. Like, I am. I've probably been as scared a few times in my life, but not as scared as that. That was like Sickening. Fear. Fear. And I remember, I remember the day of, like, I did all the preparation, I did all of that work on the day of. I was like, I might have a sore throat coming on. Like, literally I was finding ways to try and get out of it. It was that sickening. And in the environment that I worked in, feedback crucial, right? So the pressure cooker that I grew up in, in speaking, any presentations that we gave outdoor, whether it was a harness fitting or any, anything, this is life or death. This is life or death, right? So it's very intensive. But with our presentations we would have 100 and something in the audience, but within the audience we would have six of our peers and all six would have an identical piece of paper and on it they had a list of things you needed to be doing that were aligned to everything we knew about NLP and accelerated adult bracelets, brain based learning and all the rest that you needed to know. And they sat there and they just went through and followed you word for word. And as soon as you finish your talk, see everyone, you walked outside and all six walked outside with you and they had their bits of paper and they go, how'd it go?

You know, that's intense.

Yeah. And you were like, well, you know, I thought, da, da. So it was proper coaching, right? Top of mind coaching. How did it go?

You would say whatever you thought and you had to be brutal, you know, because you were raised in this brutality of it of like best you get what's on their list, you know, because you don't want to give them, you don't want them doing it. They'd go through and they'd just cross out, you know, whatever you mentioned that you noticed. And then anything that was left, they were like, what else? Nothing else. Okay, here you go.

Brilliant.

Yeah. That was my most punishing experience the first time I did it and the whole time freaking out. But what I did is I took a personal narrative of me and I added it to the story of above and below the line and it just brought the whole thing to life. But what it did was I was the first person to present it and it set precedent because everyone was like, how are you going to do it? We've seen him do it. He's been doing it for a long time. And it's really powerful how he does it. How are you going to do it? Because you've got to own it yourself. It's like, I don't want to do it because I can't, I can't repeat that person's message, it's not authentic to me. By me doing allowed everyone else to go, oh, there's a different way to do it. Oh, and you've done that. I can do that. But the key was the next day I had to present it, and the next day I had to present it. And every time those six people and what happened is less and less of what they had noticed because I started to rinse, repeat, and refine, I refined my messaging down my delivery. I got really comfortable with what I was doing. And once I became comfortable in the space, I became very consciously aware of what was working and what wasn't and what was happening. And then I could fine tune it.

You could fine tune your volume, your projection, your empathy, and even story nuances.

Yeah. So my worst experience, most harrowing experience, set me up for the skills I needed and the environment and the tools and the support that I needed to then take that. And that's. That's the mastery is using that exact, exact same focus. It's get up and do it again, get up and do it again, do it again, do it again, do it again. And the more you do, funnily enough, the better you get.

It's that 10,000. Our real 10,000. You gotta put the wraps in.

You've got to. Yeah.

Michael, what are you most proud of in your life?

Ah, my relationship with my wife, man. Like.

Without that.

There would be no foundation. Right. Like, I've only been able to achieve what I've been able to. To achieve in my professional life because of my personal life. And that has 14 years, right? 14 years together.

We have.

Alongside each other, coached each other to become the best versions of ourselves.

So we're mastering our relationship. We have mastery in our work and mastery in our relationship as well. We are constantly. Rinse, repeat, refine, rinse, repeat, refine.

Yeah, it's my biggest success. Without it, there wouldn't be the others.

And in that relationship, because we're talking about communication, do you have any advice for people who are in a relationship, who want that relationship to continue to grow?

What advice do you have for them to communicate better?

Couple of foundations. Right? So.

It'S a big subject, so just tiptoe around the edges of it.

For the first three years of us being together, we focused on unpacking our baggage, right? So imagine that you've got a big bag that you carry around, and inside that big bag is another bag, and inside that is another and another and another and another. And right at the very bottom end of all those bags, is a little bag. And it's full of all the things that you've experienced that crafted your personal story about the world around you. And until you feel find that each of you is carrying these big bags and you just kind of like keep bumping into each other. So our first three years was each unpacking our bags to find our little story. What was our story that was governing the direction of our lives.

And then identify and then start to work towards building a life where that story starts to change. That has been a long force, 14 years. Because those stories have been governing all aspects of our life. You know, that's your filter.

This story filters everything you see and do and how you interpret it.

100%. 100%. So the problem with that story is that it will be in all places in your life. So you're like, I just fixed it over here.

Bang, it's somewhere else. Yeah. Because it's everywhere. It's all across your life. And it takes time, it takes mastery to go weed it out and then figure out the impact, but then figure out how you're changing it as well. And that story, that narrative, that baggage is around self belief. Right. One of the key phrases that my wife and I have had since day one, those stories that we have will bring out parts of ourselves that are not great, they're not the best part of ourselves. And those parts of ourselves are to protect the little person inside us, the little fragile person inside us.

The key is not to allow the other person to be that. Right.

So I'm hearing accountability here and support.

Accountability for each other. But there is a level of accountability which is a statement that both of us have had and we carry all the way through. And it's always been our go back to, which is in all situations. I would rather be myself standing alone than become someone else standing next to you.

Which is like what.

What that means is, is that if you, because of your fears, because of your doubts, because of your narrative, if it comes back too strong, and even though we have all of this, I'm not willing to change and become less than my full self to be with you, to do it, to let you do that. And it's like that has always been our most powerful thing in our relationship is we will bounce out of our. Kind of like our core of who we are, the real deep who we are. We'll bounce out of it because something will happen. But it's the other person's desire is to go come back. I can't go there with you. I'M not going to go there with you because if we both end up there, there is nothing here for us.

That would be a tough piece of how to make it work, the advice around it. But that's always been the core. It's like. And it's not. First thing you have to do is figure out, unpack the baggage. Because in a relationship, if you.

Mark out, stake out the ground of what you think you are right now, then you're already limiting.

Of course.

Yeah. Because you're just the bigger bag.

Yeah.

Yeah. Michael.

See as you talk, I think it reminds me actually of a conversation I had with an amazing navy seat. And his whole ethos is around the overcome mindset and people who are masters at whatever they do, whether it's Golf speaking, sport, CEOs at great companies, founders, they have an overcome mindset. And you've mentioned a couple of times already in a conversation about get the reps and just keep on going, get back up. So for the listener, I mean, I know parts of your story and intimately parts of it and it's mind blowing, inspiring. Can you just share one of your toughest moments, your rock bottom moments that you had to overcome to be where you are today?

Sure. So.

What people don't see and what we, I mean, go out of our way to keep hidden from the world are for me it would be what was my story, my bags, what was inside there. Mine was when we unpacked it, a lack of self belief, a lack of self worth and a lack of self control. Those are my three tied in with some healthy abandonment issues from being in an orphanage.

I let that story roll and manifest to a point where my escape from that to cover the pain of all of that was to end up with a.

Class A heroin addiction which saw me.

In very compromising positions over a 10 year period. But it saw me at my worst in a little apartment in Sumner, you know, out by the beach. And it was Christmas Day and I had a room full of opium poppies that I'd gone out and grabbed and I was had bled them and made them into heroin that you can't measure the strength of. You can't measure it. Right. You have no idea. And I took it, not knowing whether it would kill me or not. And at the time I was in no way concerned about that.

To top it off, my ceiling fell down, which was a. It was like a concrete stipple ceiling. So it's the kind of ceiling that if I was in the actual kitchen at the time, it probably would have Killed me.

I was crawling on the floor, half dead. Anyway, that was my moment of my worst and overcome. I always knew this is the thing, right? I always knew that there was a better way. I always felt that personally, I wasn't aligned to my personal values, what I was doing. I knew that it was bad for me. I knew all of those things. But that story and those three key things were the rabbit wheel in the background that was driving everything else. So no matter what was happening at a cognitive high level in my brain, my brain knew the answer. Bearing in mind nlp, you know, all the stuff.

Smart, actually.

Very smart. Smart enough to know better, but governed by that story.

That was my worst. And then it was a long, slow climb out of hell, essentially.

See, that's really what inspires me. And of course, we know this is the lead on purpose show. And to me, that is leading yourself on purpose. And you can't begin to lead others until you lead yourself.

And you're still truly, you know, not.

If you want to feel like a fraud, have that going on in the background. You know, you can show up, you can dazzle, you can do all this stuff. But you go home feeling empty. Yeah. And you've changed people's lives, you've shared messages that have been amazing. But you go home feeling empty because you know in the background of your own mind that you are not living up to your own potential. And I think that that drives the mastery is like, it keeps me focused. I love it.

It's my passion and it's a healthy dose of what I missed, what I lost as a child, which is self expression. I think to a degree, we lose so much of our ability to express in a deep, connected emotional level. And that's because of people's own narratives and their own barriers that they put in place.

The BS that I talk about, the belief systems that we have that have been written from a very young age, and we actually believe that stuff up there.

Oh, yeah.

And as you say, it directs our influence, it directs our decisions. It's very, very strong impact on who we are as humans. Now, why I love what you do is because, you know, there are speaker coaches who've went to speaker coach school, they've had a great upbringing, went to private school, they've read all the books. Why I love you is because you've actually walked the walk. You've been in the real world, you've hit absolute rock bottom. And then the most exciting thing is you figured out how to get back up and you share that in how you coach and you bring that rawness and you bring that experience. Now I know there's a listener going right now, going. I also want to hear the gems about how to be a great speaker. So are there two or three things that people do that are not good from a speaking point of view before we get to what is good?

Cool. Five. Five things. Five simple things. Procrastinate. Right. So you get told that you've got something coming up. Great. If you don't like the idea of it doesn't inspire you. So the first thing you do is you just put it off. And you put it off and put it off and put it off. Which then leads to. You don't write a script, of course, because you don't have time. You just jot down some bullet points and hopefully wing your way through it. Speaking in circles and never really getting to your point.

You don't time your talk, which is great because you're going to stuff up everyone else's conferences because you just waffle over your time. Yep. Everyone's going to be shifted and pushed out because of you. You have terrible PowerPoints. The worst. And the reason being is, well, if you don't prepare, you've got to have your notes somewhere. So why not throw them up there? Just read it. Love it. Problem there is that we speak at around 170 words per minute on average. Anthony Robbins is about 210. He's pretty quick. People read at 400. Whoa.

So while you're speaking about it, they've already read it and it's like, okay, on to the next thing.

We're bored. Boo. They're gone.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Don't practice the delivery. Yeah. So.

So if I want to have a. If I want to be a crap speaker, I'll just do exactly what you told me to do.

Just do the first one. Just do the first one. That'll guaranteed to get you the rest. The outcome of the rest. Just put it off. Don't put in the time. Don't dedicate anything to it. Time frames wise for a good talk. One minute dedicated to every hour of content.

So if I'm doing an hour keynote, which is standard keynote length, I got to be on a 60 hour prep for that.

Right. Just for the script development and design of any slide content. 45 minutes for every minute of presentation.

Wow.

So I can't do the quick math on that, but you're looking at 60 hours just for the design development and then half, you know, just over half that amount of hours again in the actual how do I stand?

How do I move?

How do I lean in and emphasize the point? What gesture will I use? How's my face going to respond when I say that? I don't know. How will it respond? What's going to have the biggest impact? Because my body is going to help push my message out even more to another group of the audience. My visuals help with this. My voice helps with this. My physical body helps with this part. And my words help with this part.

To all the modalities you're touching with them all. So that everyone in the audience who are different. And there'll be some neurodiverse people in the audience. You're going to be able to connect with every single person.

That's brilliant because you bring all of it, right? And if I want to make. If I want to make that even harder, I'm going to. Not I'm going to procrastinate, but then I'm going to stand in front of a lectern.

And so that essentially blocks you between you and your audience. So it's a physical energy disconnect.

A physical energy disconnect. It can be done, and it can be done well. And this is the thing I often say. If you're going to use notes, use notes by all means. If your memory is going to have you worried and self conscious about getting your message across in a really clear, concise way, use notes. But prepare with notes. Practice with notes. Dedicate to notes. Space your notes, 16 point font halfway down the page. So that when you're at the lectern, you don't tilt your head down, which cuts your esophagus and stops your voice from being powerful.

The 1 percenter is there, Michael. Yeah, I know, right?

It also disconnects eye contact because you have to look down. So you only fill out half your page in your notes. So you can glance down with your eyes. And they need to be big enough to be seen. And you don't want a crumbly piece of paper. You want it in a really good hard copy with thick plastic so it jumps out at you. But you need to practice what this part of the body is going to do. Because now you're limiting to your hands and your face and your voice.

And that takes a lot more practice.

100%. And you've got it down to this art, the art of epic communication.

And it's an art. It's an art in a science.

There's exactly. You beat me to it. There's where I want to go. I Believe that art is often informed by science. So is there any science behind what you do?

Up until recently, no. Right, so recently, up until recently we had this, we had Socrates, we had ethos, don't know what that means. Pathos, don't know what that means. Logos, don't know. And then let's add in kairos, which no one knows about.

So we had that and it was just like, okay, we just, we have to have authority. It's like, oh, I can do authority. It's like authority is not what you're going for in the way you think it is. Authority is actually respect.

Right?

And respect comes from understanding your audience and speaking to their needs. That's respect. The science wasn't there until recently. There was a study and there's a whole bunch of cool studies being done around storytelling and speaking. But the one that really got my attention was charismatic leadership tactics. So the University of Lausanne did a study. They took 43 MBA students, they asked them to record a three to four minute video presentation of a talk. That was it. They then took six weeks and they taught them 12 key charismatic leadership tactics. Just 12. They studied and learned between 80 to 90 hours within that six weeks. So it was a very pressurized environment. They then got them to rerecord the same talk, but with as many of the 12 put into their talk as they could. They then took those talks, they gave them to 135 independent assessors who evaluated the talks against their originals. But the assessors didn't get to see both. Right? The assessors would never see the before and after. They had enough assessors that the assessors would evaluate this and then another whole set would evaluate this. So you had a comparison, but not a comparison against from the same people because that wouldn't work as well.

The average overall outcome for the entire group, everyone who went through the process, was an increase in 60% in their leadership capabilities. 60, 60% percent.

Imagine if a CEO was able to do that. Imagine if a school principal was able to do that. Imagine if someone was trying to pitch to raise some funding for their company. Like this is a game changer. 60%. And that comes down to your influencing people. You're inspiring them, you're educating them.

Whoa. It's super impressive. Right? But it's measurable. So what it gave us, and this is us as a company as well. Because bear in mind that I've been doing this stuff for a long time and I'm like, I'm good at what I do. Like, I know that Because I see the results. You know, I see Lilia, 12 and a half million views, YouTube, you know, I see Emily Blythe win, best pitch of the night in front of 900 people. And now 2023, innovator of the year. And I'm still coaching it, right. So I'm, I see the results, but it's like how am I getting them? And that's what this showed me. It's like when I went through these 12 things, it's like this is what I'm doing.

This science you discovered had been done actually backs up the art part of what you do. Yeah, yeah, that's so cool.

And it also, it gave me something else which was this whole thing around how much time do you need? It's actually accurate. 80 to 90 hours over six, over six weeks for a three to four minute to be able to implement them. But that was all part of the learning. So if I had an organization and I wanted to see real change.

Or you can do a one day workshop.

Amazing.

But what's going to happen, they're going to let it go real quick. What you need is a pre assessment evaluation. Because what we've found is that leaders have a tendency to overthink their capability. They believe they're better than they are because they're not being assessed against anything. So what we need is an assessment at the start. Great. We then need a workshop to find out where they're at, teach them some skills and then get some videos. And then we need a lot of time in the background where we're actually following up, following up, following up. So you'd be looking to match the research. You'd be looking at about 20 weeks and you'd be having engagements an hour every week with the group. And then the group individuals would need an hour each doing self directed learning through online learning, video referencing from great speakers and not great speakers. We have the map for how to run actual training that has impact.

See, that's mind blowing. I think the word that comes to mind is transformational. This is not, hey, I'm going along to tick a box to learn how to speak a bit better. You are literally transforming your ability to communicate and connect with humans all over the world. And that's when I guess when I look at great speakers and I'm like, oh my God, that was special what they just did. I can now look at that and go, oh, there's the science behind that and the art behind that which has.

Which has been missing. It's all, it's all Been hit and miss. You know, it's based off.

A person who has, you know, a lot of the training will come from a person who.

Has been asked to deliver something, did a little bit of quick research on what are a couple of things that will be helpful. However, there's no, there's a lack of depth here. Right. The mastery is not there.

Which is unfortunate because we hear about storytelling, for example, like, you need to include storytelling and what you do. And it's like, yeah, great. How, what story? What part of the story? Where does the story go?

And why that story? Not that story.

Exactly. And it's like, otherwise people are just telling a story and it's like, good story.

And the thing, I guess, good storytelling, good speaking, there's a value to it. And I want to think, you know, if there's a listener listening right now going, oh, we get keynote speakers in, you know, every year for our company and for our summit or conference. You know, some people go, hey, you know, we've got 350 bucks there put aside for speakers and we'll get 10. And I like your reaction because you get what you pay for. Okay, and what kind of value do you think? And I know New Zealand is different than America and the uk, but what kind of value do you think the ROI is on getting a really powerful speaker? And to speak for your team or your organization.

Two answers to that question. One, as a speaker, I need to use the 1 hour and 45 minute for every minute rule for when I craft my talk. Right. If you ask me to do a 45 minute talk, and I'm doing that talk just for you, and I'm making it for you, that means that I'm gonna invest $28,000 of my time that I could be coaching someone else to craft your talk. Am I going to charge you $28,000 for it? You're probably not going to pay that in New Zealand, but I then need to go, should I be doing that talk, considering I'm not going to get my return on investment? So I'm going to craft talks that I can rinse and repeat because I know it's cost me 28 grand to make your 45 minutes walk. Yeah. So that's a value you're asking for.

If you get someone who hasn't done that work, you will get that value from that speaker. Your audience will get that value from your speaker. They'll get whatever value they put into the content creation for it and what you pay them to reflect that.

So picking great speakers, then Must be really, really important skill set.

Like how does the speaker prove to you that they've put in the work? You know, oftentimes this is the downside. If you bring in a speaker at a low cost, well, it would be awful to ask them to do a run through of what their talk's going to be. You don't have, you don't have the right to do that because, well, they're doing it as a favor, you know, they're doing it for exposure. Well, that's the worst speaker you want. You want a good speaker, especially if you're charging tickets to bring people in to see the speaker.

You want a brief before and go deep on what it is you want. You want to hear from their experience testimonials, see videos of them speaking.

You want to see it and hear it. TED tedx CHRISTCHURCH we didn't let people just jump on the stage and like, good luck. It's like months of preparation leading in and the amount of times, like word for word scripting and the amount of times we saw it live and made tweaks the same as the, what I grew up with is what I'm doing to them as speakers because the audience is expecting it and I'm not going to set them up to fail. So the cost around it, you pay low, you get low.

Yeah.

And you don't know what you're going to get. And your, your name and reputation to host an event is based off your speakers. You're doing yourself a disservice by not actually doing the work and paying properly. What's it worth to be a good speaker? Well, lots of different numbers around it. In New Zealand, anywhere from a cup of tea and it's gone 500 an hour, up to 7 to 8,000 for a keynote. But the thing being is the days of hour long keynotes are dying. Right. An hour is too long. Ted talks are 18 minutes tops. Anthony Robbins got extra two minutes because he's Anthony Robbins. Right. And they were like, keep going, you're amazing. But average is 18. Because one key idea around the body of information is enough for people to be able to lock that key message in. Essentially if you're at 30 something minutes, you've got two tea talks, which means you've got two ideas. That's it. A keynote is a lot more than that. So people want now short, you know, a keynote for a friend of mine in Perth is 30 minutes. He has, he's 10,000 for a 30 minute keynote. My friend in Canada, he's 15 and if he takes that exact same talk and goes to the US 25 makes sense. And then you get to the real top end. There is a former astronaut who is in the US who might be coming out to New Zealand for an event to speak at. He's 85,000 an hour for a keynote because he does the longer keynotes. That does not include first class flights, accommodation and all that jazz.

Can I go one up on that? Barack Obama, one hour in U.S. dollars, $600,000. But you know the audience is going to come away deeply impacted from that. So if you have 600 people in that audience, you're trying to tell me they're not going to get a thousand dollars worth of value each.

That's right. Right, exactly right. And it's like in New Zealand, we get lost in the, in we're a little bit detached. Right. And it's like.

Audiences control their value.

Through their feedback. Yeah. If you don't show up because it's bad, the people who host it need to make some changes. But what we see in New Zealand is this culture where. How was the speaker? Although, yeah, they were good. No, they weren't. They were terrible. Terrifying. Horrible. But we're like, well, you know, it wasn't me. I'm too scared to get up there. So I'm just going, it wasn't me. That's great. But there's no developmental feedback. So that person gives this talk and it's even worse for the speakers because they're like, everyone claps and they're like, wow, I must be good. And then they just continue and they live in a world where they think they're good, but we have such a low bar and our audiences govern that and our people who contract speakers govern it as well. It's like, well, you know, we don't have much money for you. It's like you've got hundreds of thousands of dollars for events.

And when people pay, they pay attention. You know, when you're paying a couple hundred dollars to a great speaker, like you're just, you're not going to pay as much attention. You're paying 10 grand for that 45 minutes. You know, up in Auckland or here in Christchurch, you're going to pay attention to what they have to say.

It's value return. Right. Like, we value what the price we put on things. And if there's no price on it, there's no value. But it also guarantees that the person is less inclined to put effort in.

Definitely. And look, I want to be super mindful of your Time. So I've got two last questions. Love to ask you. So one, if I, or the listener that's listening in this case want to work with you, how can I work with you?

Easily.

Easily.

It's easy. It's easy. So we've kind of, we've really structured down our business into, into that mastery. Right. So essentially at a, at an entry level for people if you're anywhere in the world. I created a online learning platform which was based off exactly what I would do if I was to take a TED speaker, TEDx speaker from zero to stage. And I crafted the content that it's a five part model within it that will help a person go from zero to TED stage. So that's online and it's accessible easily through our website. I'll put that in the show. Excellent. From there we get into the real detailed stuff. Right. So I do one on one investment pitch coaching, generally around 5 to 50 million. So people who are looking to investment pitch raise capital within that 7 to 10 minute mark, I help guarantee that they get the outcomes they want. So that's private coaching. But I also do private speaker coaching for generally around the C suite level with people who are speaking at national or international conferences. And again so that's private. Over and above that we have a group workshops which are in house where people learn essentially those 12 charismatic leadership tactics. We've got a full day where we just hammer out like there are seven videos within the day and there's just learn, do, learn, do, learn, do, learn do. And we can stretch that out to that whole 20 week. Let's get your people really good at this so that you actually create subject matter experts. And then over and above that there's this cool new piece which I love, which is, you know, you started off with the professor of practice which works really well because the results we've been getting from this in house workshop have been phenomenal. Amazing. But it's like I want to get this out to the public but for me, the, you know, you know, all the background staff of events, it's like it is, it's hard work. Right. And what's been really great with the university is they've with me being a professor of practice, twice a year we offer that workshop for the public. Amazing. Yeah. So if, you know there are, if there are organizations out there who are like, oh, we'd love to test that to bring you in to actually do some of the bigger stuff. It's like, well, how do we try before we buy. It's like go to the university.

I'm going to put a link in the show notes for that as well.

It's incredible. And then for all those other people, because I've had a whole bunch of people who have contacted me over time going, let us know when you get to run a workshop. And I'm like, I'm so sorry, it's, it's in here, it's private, I don't run it publicly. It's like now you can come on my thing.

Yeah, I know we're better than University of Canterbury.

Yeah, University of Canterbury, you know, executive education.

Incredible.

Perfect.

Yeah, thank you.

My pleasure, my pleasure.

Sorry, go ahead.

Yep. For four people.

There are a whole bunch of resources that I've created, right, to help people on that journey. So they are on my website and it's under Free resources, right. There'll be video content there, there's written content there around little things that you can do to start improving. And the first things are overcome that procrastination, like start doing something about it today.

You don't start today, start right away.

Start today, start now. Start. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the truth of it, right, is we can all improve and we all need to improve because the world we all work and speak in is changing. We are becoming a more neuro inclusive environment and people are wanting to work in places where they feel that they are able to show up as their whole selves and the more they can do that, the better it is for everyone. And the way we communicate that through our, just our. How we talk about the job descriptions, how we enter, like get people's attention to come and want to work for us. If we're not actually being neuro inclusive, right, from that point, then we're missing out on a lot and we will be left behind because that's the direction the world's moving in.

I can see it. Definitely. And look, one last question. I want us to fast forward way into the future, many, many years. Your last day here on earth, you know, it's your last day.

Yep.

And a very young person who you just love, they're maybe seven, eight years old and they come into the room and they say, michael, I really want to know how to lead my life on purpose. Oh, what would you have to say to them? Or ask them?

Make a plan. Life by design doesn't happen by accident. Yeah, yeah, that's it. Make a plan. And that plan would include the research from Gallup, right. So the recent book that came out from Gallup and it is, what are those five key things. What are the five key things? So it's not to have a good life, to have a great life. What are the five things?

Those are your list and your plan should include those five things to be balanced. Yeah.

From my experience, there will be bumps along the way, you know, but it's that story that 7 year olds telling themselves and that how the the plan they can reattach to whatever the bumps are. That's okay because you got a plan. Without a plan.

You lost 100%.

Well, Michael, thank you so much for taking the time to connect and creating this space. Thank you for the incredible work you do for not only just our local region here, but the whole country and I know globally now with your online platform. It's incredible. And I do believe we will have more conversations in the future.

I'm sure we will.

Great.

My pleasure. So much. Thank you. And thank you for being a good friend. I love our conversations and where we go and where we can go in the world of helping lead people.

Me too. I really, truly value our friendship. Thank you.

Thanks, brother.

Hey guys. If you enjoyed the content today, please smash that subscribe button below. And if you want to become part of my community, I've got an amazing free Facebook group, please come and join us. The link is in the description below. And also so if you've got any questions about today's session, I'd love to know. Just comment below and I'll be sure to get back to you guys. Have the most amazing day.