Joe Smarro on Surviving Suicide, Childhood Trauma, and Why Empathy Saves Lives

Today we have special guest Joe Smarrow. Joe is an American veteran and has went through some unbelievable highs and lows in his life. Trigger warning. We do talk about depression and suicide in this episode and we're going to talk about leading with vulnerability, empathy, and absolute raw honesty. I hope you enjoy the show. The Lead on Purpose podcast is sponsored by NZ Mortgages. Learn more at nzmortgages.co nz. Joe, a huge welcome to the Lead on Purpose podcast.

Thank you, James. It's an honor to be here. I'm really looking forward to the conversation.

Me too. I mean, the work that you do is just phenomenal and you're truly global with your impact. And I just wanted to try and get a bit of time to sit down with you and learn more about where you're taking it and I guess more importantly, why you're doing what you're doing. So I think that people that are on a mission that put themselves up on stages in front of audiences and in front of global audiences on podcasts as well, I think it takes a lot of courage. And often behind that, there's a deep reason why they're so driven and so courageous to do so. Joe, what's behind why you're doing what you're doing?

Yeah, James, first of all, I just want to say that in looking into you and doing some research on you as well, I just saw your speaker sizzle reel on YouTube and it was powerful. But I remember you were walking out to the stage and you were talking about the jitters that you felt and the excitement, but you tied it to the fact that it's because it matters. And so that resonated with me when I heard that. Because, you know, as someone that's very comfortable speaking now, cause I do it almost weekly, I still get those like, pre performance jitters where I'm like, why am I nervous right now? But it's because I truly, truly care.

The mission for me, the vision of our company is to its full stop, is to eradicate suicide. Now I go deeper because, you know, in business they always talk about, like, have your niche. And. And so our thing is, I would love to see a calendar year before my death where we have zero suicides, specifically in first responders. And because, you know, as a, as a Marine Corps combat veteran and as a former police officer, the first responders are my primary target focus. But it's, it's really people. And if I had to be even more specific, I remember when I was writing the book and the publisher was like, who's your target audience and, you know, men is. Is something that I think resonates mostly with me because, you know, I think. And I'm not super familiar with how it is there in New Zealand with your culture, James, but I can tell you in the States, like the Western culture for men, and it's probably the same there, but, you know, it's not a very open, welcoming community for men to share what's coming up, for them to share their feelings, to express themselves as being anything other than either happy or angry. And as someone that really focuses on that, you know, how do we level up our emotional intelligence? It's about understanding the wide range of emotions that exist for all people and how do we explore those, how do we pursue those, instead of how do we avoid them? And as someone that. And I'm happy to get into it naturally through conversation, but, you know, I've been suicidal since really I was 15 years old. A lot of childhood trauma. And as someone that's sat there in the darkness contemplating, you know, staring at the other end of my gun, thinking that, you know, the world would be better without me, my family would be better without me, I'm not worthy of tomorrow. You know, I've realized through a lot of work, over 15 years now of consistent work, that I am worthy of tomorrow. And so is every one of your listeners, so are you. And I really think that if we could just understand how important we are, how much we matter, how much of a miracle we are that we're even born into existence, that we are worthy of tomorrow. And if we can just find that spark or that thing of hope that keeps us holding on, then it's always worth it.

On the other side, your work is so important. And here in New Zealand, we've got the highest teenage suicide rate in the oecd, and it's very heavily weighted towards males. And certainly post 65, our stats go up as well. I worked at a school, and at that school, there was probably close to 10 suicides in the time that I worked there alone. This year alone, I've lost two friends here in Christchurch to suicide. It's everywhere, and it's truly, I would say, our biggest epidemic globally. However, there doesn't seem to be anything that's slowing it down. So I think the work that you're doing is crucial. There's a gentleman I spoke to a number of years ago, Dr. Warren Farrell, who wrote the Boy Crisis. He consults to the White House on Boys and Men's Health. And he said, look, James, you've spoke with your Prime Minister and your prime Minister of New Zealand said that it was social media, bullying, drug addiction or abuse and sexual abuse in the home. Those were the key reasons that they were finding there was such a high suicide rate. He said, I disagree with your prime Minister. He said those are secondary factors. He said, number one factor, the number one outlying factor is the lack of a present male role model for a young man. And he says that's the defining factor and that shoots things through, through the roof. So would you mind you, if we talked a little bit about your childhood and about how suicide, you know, and these, these ideations have been a part of your life. What drove that?

Yeah, and I just want to say that I agree with the doctor. And just to make a quick parallel, in 2019, I was in New York City at the, it was the Police Officer Suicide Prevention Symposium and there were 350 leaders from around the world, not just the states there talking about how do we fix this, how do we improve this? And one of the commissioners stood up and he said, you know, what we're finding is all of our suicides are tied to relationship issues. And I wanted to stand up and like run through a wall because just as the thing, the three things you outlined from your prime minister, we get distracted by behaviors and all human behavior is communication, right? Bullying is communication, everything, every human behavior is a communication. And too often we get distracted by these behaviors instead of being curious as to the thing driving those behaviors, which is usually coming from a place of lack. And again, a lack of community, a lack of support, a lack of a male dominant role model, which I'll tell you, James, as a 43 year old man, still something lacking in my life. My father died many years ago. He. We were not close growing up. A lot of abuse, which I'll talk about right now. But I still, as a 43 year old man am searching for that male role model that doesn't, you know, just, that's not just impressed by the business that I've created, that isn't impressed by what I can do or what I have and then doesn't want to be on the take of that, but just wants to be a steady presence in my life to guide me and to coach me and mentor me because they see the value in me as a human being and as a man, not as a, as a widget to perform something. So.

The long and short of it is my parents married very young, straight out of high school. I have a sister who's three years older than me, I still, with 15 years of treatment, have no memory or recollection prior to 7 years old. When my abuse first started and we were stationed down in Virginia, my dad was in the Navy and he was away on a six month Mediterranean float. And my mom had an affair and that male that she was having an affair with was coming to the house routinely and he started sexually abusing me. And this went on for some time. And I remember telling my mom at some point like, hey, you know, Steve's doing this and making me do this. And you know, her response was, hey, we don't say those things now. As a 7 year old kid, you can't process something like this. And you know, I genuinely have a belief that people are doing the best they can with what they have based on what they know. I've learned to forgive my mother. I truly believe she didn't want to believe that this man that she clearly cared about would do something like this to her children because he was giving her something that was missing. And so I don't think that, you know, she didn't listen to me out of malice. I don't, I don't think she wanted me to be hurt. But I think her own selfish desire kind of maybe masked my outcry.

And so the reason my work and de escalation and training on human behavior matter so much is because of what happened next. Because the abuse continued, I don't know, close to eight years old. But it was a weekend. It was during the day. My sister was in the bathtub, my mom was sleeping on the couch and she used to be a smoker. And I went into her purse, I grabbed a book of matches, I went into my bedroom, shut the door and I laid underneath my bed and I was trying to set my bed on fire and I'd light a match and it would go out. You know, I didn't know mattresses were flame retardant. And so I kept trying, kept trying and eventually the fabric caught, caught fire and I panicked and I rolled out and I went and banged on the bathroom and got my sister out. Woke up my mom. We ran outside and you know, the base fire department showed up very quickly and it wasn't catastrophic, it didn't burn the house down, but it certainly burnt my bed. It charred the floo and like part of the wall. And I'm standing outside with my mom and sister, not really realizing the severity of what I had done. But this fireman, you know, God bless him, I hope he had a great career in life, but you know, again, back to my statement. He came up to me real aggressive and, you know, gave me what we call the knife hand and was just real aggressive, saying, young man, if you ever start another fire again, you'll spend the rest of your life in prison. Do you understand me? And I was like, whoa, I don't want to go to prison. So I started crying. And I tell people when I'm doing my seminars, I say, hey, pause right here. This is where I wish that that fireman had just graduated. One of our trainings, where we talk about focus on the person, not the problem, right? People's problems are what give us permission to have our purpose. That fireman wouldn't have been doing anything if it wasn't for me creating a problem. And so instead of him being frustrated and threatening me, he could have slowed down and said, well, wait a minute. All behavior is communication. So what is this kid trying to communicate? And if he would have pulled me to the side, and I don't know that I would have made an outcry. I get now that sometimes kids will protect their abusers because they don't want to create trouble and chaos. I. I don't know, but I just, in hindsight, wish that the opportunity was given to me so that I could have maybe had the opportunity to have to have that off, that helping hand. But instead of him offering me help or hope, he threatened me. And because my mom and Steve weren't smart enough to make the correlation, the abuse continued. At some point, my sister called our grandmother up in New York. My dad's mom telling her what was going on. This is like 1989. She somehow calls my father, tells him what's happening. He's then given emergency leave, flies home, and all hell breaks loose. I remember my parents getting divorced. We moved up to New York to live with family. I didn't go to school my third grade year. I got held back because I was in therapy three days a week. I was in and out of court. My parents fought for custody. My mom had no chance, really. She ended up marrying our abuser.

And she had a kid with him. So I have a half brother from my abuser, which has been very difficult as well. And I love my brother Larry, and he's a great guy, but it's been hard. So my ideas of safety and love and relationships were just totally stripped from me. And my dad learned in a very short window that his wife was cheating on him. His kid has been molested, and he got kicked out of the military with, like, 1012 years, and I don't remember exactly. And so he became a heavy, heavy drinker. He was an alcoholic, but also worked a lot. And so he was physically abusive. I never really saw him. And we had no real relationship except for violence and the same thing. He got into three more relationships after my mom. Every single one of them ended up physically abusing me. They all openly cheated on him. And so this idea that relationships or love was a real thing was just so foreign to me to where in my adult life I would sabotage anything good. And my vice became relationships, it became women. That was my heroin or alcohol or pills or opiates or. You know, I say that we all have an addiction to something, even if it's TV or screens or the gym or food, we have something. And because I didn't trust that relationships would ever last or that love could be a real thing. And truly, James, I didn't think I was worthy of it, right? Like, my self worth was so low that I was convinced that I did not deserve to be loved. And so I made sure that that was the case by disrupting every personal or intimate relationship that I had. Friends and other friends and intimate partners and otherwise, you know, just I would work really hard to make my life as hard as possible because that was just feeding the belief that confirmation bias, which is I'm not worthy of anything good. So let me continue to rock this boat of my life so that it can stay in a state of chaos, because that's where I thrive. And it wasn't until I went to the Veteran affairs over 15 years ago now and just learned that Brahma is a real thing. And the wild part of this story, James, is that you fast forward.

I'll go back to the story real quick because I want it to make sense. My junior year of high school, there was so much violence, so much just fear that I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. And so I left home. I started staying with friends, my girlfriend, 9th grade, 10th grade, and 11th grade, her parents took me in and said, hey, you can start staying here towards the end of our junior year. And I was like, oh, thank goodness. But I didn't have a job. And so I'm like, how can I thank them? And then I was like, and this is a joke, listeners of Lead on purpose. This is a joke. But I was like, oh, I know I'll get their daughter pregnant. That'll be my gift to them. And it clearly was not intentional. But my senior year, I became a father. And that's why I joined the Marine Corps. It wasn't for any other reason. I wanted to go to college and play soccer. That was my escape. But because I became a father now it was like, well, I obviously can't go to school. That doesn't make sense. So I joined the service and that was in the year 2000 pre 9 11. So I joined specifically to help raise my daughter, to make sure she had insurance. And then 911 happened. I find myself in a combat zone as a 19 year old kid and just trauma compounding on trauma. And then I get out, survive it physically, not mentally, emotionally, psychologically. And then I become a police officer and I joined the San Antonio Police Department. And that's where it just kicked into high gear of realizing that man, I am a victim of my own life. I'm a passenger in my own life. I've given complete control of everything away. And I joined a mental health unit on the police department. It was this progressive first of its kind, nationally recognized thing. And I'm on a mental health unit as a massive hypocrite, showing up every day telling people, just take your medicine, go to the doctor, follow your treatment plan and you won't have to deal with the police. And then I'd go home addicted to pornography, drinking way too much, just trying to sleep, going through a divorce. By the time I was 30, I already had three divorces and you know, just. Just a mess of a human. But it wasn't until I took ownership and realized that the common denominator in all this was me. And I had to learn to forgive my parents, I had to learn to forgive myself. I had to learn to forgive anyone that ever hurt me, including my abuser, because I learned the power of forgiveness. And that when we hold it, we're essentially voluntarily holding that poison. And so once I learned to free all that, I'm not going to say it was easy, but it started to change things in my Life. And again, 15 years later, it's still a work in progress, but I'm actively committed to healing my traumas, learning about the way my brain operates, believing that I am worthy, that I do deserve love and respect and kindness and that also that I can give it. And it doesn't have to be transactional and it doesn't have to be based in fear. And so that's the journey I'm on now because of the darkness I've been in to the light that I'm currently experiencing, the bliss that I have now with this business and getting the life that I'VE created. Now it's like, man, I want to bring other people on this journey with me and I want to help them navigate their dark moments. Because on the other side of it, I think is where it's contagious. Right? It's contagious when you can give people that experience. When they go from hopeless and despair to like joy and bliss and excitement and exuberance for life. And not just like dreading the next day, but actually looking forward to it because you get to do something that you're excited about and again, like you said in the name of your show, but to not just lead on purpose, but to live on purpose. And that was a huge shift for me.

Joe, thank you for sharing this. And I just think it takes a lot of courage and vulnerability to go and share everything about your upbringing, your trauma, your abuse and I'm sorry that you had to actually experience that as a kid. I've got an eight year old boy and I can't imagine him having to experience even a fraction of what you've experienced. And for you to be able to do that and to kind of shine a light, the fact that this stuff does happen and that it does have lasting impact, I mean, I really deeply appreciate that. And I was, I'm glad you explained about the military and the Marine Corps. And you know, for you it wasn't necessarily you were going there because of what happened as a child. You were going there because you felt responsible. Like I need, I'm responsible for a child, I need to go and earn. So because I often see people who've been abused, they will, particularly males, move towards gangs, crime or the military and it's like they're moving in either direction. It sounds like that wasn't the driving force for you, what happened in childhood, but more so a sense of, hey, I'm responsible for this child. So you go to, over to Afghanistan and Iraq both.

Yes sir, both.

Okay. So I can only imagine what that's like. So I imagine there's things that happened there that would inform the work that you do now around compassion and de escalation. In fact, I imagine they're probably at odds with each other to some degree. So when you think of being at war over there as a 19 year old, a kid.

Yes.

What, what's something that comes to mind that really has stuck with you, that it has inspired you to go, no, I've got to, I've got to do the right thing here. I've got to work on compassion and de escalation.

Yeah. I love this question. And.

It was the first day. So March 1903 is when President Bush gave the orders that we're going to go into Iraq from Kuwait. We have been there since January and we have been told numerous times, we're going in, all right. Nope, we're not. We're going home, but we're going in. Talk about psychological warfare from our own people, from our own leaders of, you know, just not knowing what was what. And probably six times in a 60 day window we were told, pack up, we're leaving to go back to the States. And then, oh, no, no, unpack, we're going to invade tomorrow. And I remember when they told us we were going in, we were so numb to it that we're just like, we're not going like this. There's no way we're going. They just keep saying this. And then we were loading up into these Amtrak vehicles and we were going. And I was like, whoa. And the first night into the next morning was the thing that stuck out most to me of all things. And there were a lot though. I mean, there was one of the Marines, Marines in our unit ended up taking his life over there. And you know, our sergeant actually died over there. There was a lot of things that, that was terrible. But that first push, I remember really quickly, I learned something that's kind of similar in a different sense within policing, which I think is a cultural issue in our country, is when we were, we were in these Amtrak vehicles for hours. The tops were closed, we couldn't see anything. There's like a red light in the front, like you're just chugging along, it's loud, it's just. And then we come to a stop and they tell us all to get out. And we get out and I can see, you know, a couple miles up ahead, trace arounds and there's clearly some action going on. And they told all of us that we were enlisted to get out of the Amtraks, these armored protected vehicles and they're going to put us in these like soft back Humvees that had no protection. And they were putting the officers into the Amtraks. And so I was like, oh, we're disposable like that. When you're enlisted, you're far less important. And that right away hit me, but I didn't have anything to compare it to. And I'm like, okay. So then we, we have our first engagement. Poor communication. Shocking, right? Just has had as it had been, we were told, do not do anything to the west because that's friendlies only focus on the east. And we're passing through this village and we're, we're going super slow. It's just a convoy like foot off the gas, just idling, moving at the speed of the Humvee in neutral. And I remember we had a gunner on top of our Humvee and it's just, it's you hear stuff but you don't know and you got night vision and. And then the gunner just kind of starts shooting. I'm like, I don't know. And I'm a right handed rifle. They never trained me how to shoot from the passenger seat of a vehicle of my left arm. So I'm like already this is unique. And so I'm like, I don't know what's going on. And then our convoy stops and I'm like, what is happening? Because we're in like a firefight and our convoy stopping. Now I don't know anything about military warfare at this time, right? They don't teach us this stuff. We just know, find an enemy, kill an enemy. But I'm in my mind, I'm like, why don't we just drive fast? Like let's like a drive by, let's just get through this. But they're like, nope, we have to do the takeover. But what they didn't tell us was that three one, which is another unit of marines had already started clearing to the east and now we're effectively shooting them in their backs and we had no idea. So their colonel comes out, stops our convoy like, what the hell are you doing? Who's in charge? I, from what I recall, a couple of them did get shot. I have no idea on condition, but they had to get medevacked out. So right away I'm like, what are we? No one knows what's happening. And then that morning the sun came up and we're, we're driving along and just to see the carnage.

Will never leave me. It looked like Hollywood fake just to see decapitated bodies burnt, people on to vehicles, people just shredded in half. And the one thing that sticks out more than anything and something I did a lot of work on with therapy was this young boy, I can see him. You know, it's, I talk about this in the documentary that I'm in called Ernie and Joe Crisis Cops. But I see this boy and he's in the street and we're, we're moving along very slowly, but I, I see him face down and I assume he's dead. But then right as we pass he Kind of like, props himself up and he just looks and we just peer right into each other's eyes, but he's missing half his head. And now, obviously, I'm not a doctor. I'm a kid. I don't know anything about anything. But the fact that he was moving. I'm like, well, we can help this kid. So I'm like, hey, hey, Corman. Corpsman Corman calling for a doctor. Like, we can help this kid. Let's get him. And the response destroyed me. The response of like, f that kid. He's gonna grow up and be one of them. We're not stopping. This is part of it. And I'm like, where am I? And I do not want to be here. I don't belong here. Like, this is not what I signed up for. I don't want to do this. And so I tell people I'll never be the combat veteran that, like, claims to be a hero. I did what I had to do to survive it, and that's been most of my life. But it wasn't fun for me. It wasn't enjoyable. It didn't feel patriotic, even. Like, we're invading another person's country. And to see the death to women, to children, like. And the reason that, that, that haunted me for almost a decade and through my work in therapy, I think the, the. The thing that caused that situation to stick out more than anything my therapist revealed to me was because I was that kid. I was that kid asking for help. And when I was asking my mom for help, for example, and she just kind of was like, no, that's not going to happen. I was trying to be a lifeline for this kid and no one cared. And so I was reliving something subconsciously that I wasn't even aware of. And to me, this is why, like, yes, when we teach de escalation to first responders about how to deal with a mental health crisis, I tell them, hey, don't get distracted by the fact that, like, oh, that's just a mental health call. No. If you're a parent, as you share, James, that you are of an eight year old, right? If you're a parent, this applies to you understanding that when your kids do something egregious or they're angry, just remember that anger is the mask of depression. When your kids act out and they're stomping and slamming doors and throwing things, it's probably because they're not in an environment where they feel okay to say that they're sad. So instead they become frustrated because their emotions are bottling up and now they're going to implode. But people react to that and they punish it. And they're like, you're grounded. Or they make it worse by yelling at them instead of just slowing down, taking a breath. And we have our model of de escalation, I call it the ccrtc, which is curiosity leads to connection, which develops rapport, builds trust, and ultimately gains compliance. And I break this down into like, what is curiosity? Curiosity is focusing on the person, not the problem. Curiosity is asking yourself what else could be true. It forces you to slow down so you don't react impulsively. Connection is about relationship, it's about reciprocity. Right? I gave a TEDx talk titled I see you. I would encourage your listeners to watch it on YouTube. But it wasn't about one way, right? It's not like, hey, hey, James, I'm here with you and I see you, you're a podcast host, you're a seven time world champion leader, you're all this stuff. But it's like, hey, also I want you to see me in return. It's about relationship and then that's the connection. And then rapport is about dialogue. And there's a science, like I'm a trained, certified hostage negotiator. So it's using the science of effective communication and active listening, leveraging Dr. Morabian's theory, the 8020 rule, like the science of how to effectively engage and talk appropriately. And then with trust, it's about testing. And so I talk about like, how malleable is this person? Can I get them to stand up? Can I get them to sit down? Can I get them to hand me something? Can I get them to do anything before I go for my big ask? And this is even with our children, right? We just think like, no, I tell my kids to do something, they should do it because I'm the authority figure. But to me it's the same with policing. I tell them there's two options. You can be authority and aggression, or you can be compassionate connection. And even as a cop, I was the compassion connection guy. And as a father, as a husband, as a friend, as a person. Now that's everything that leads my life is through empathy. I focus on the person. It's always about that connection, to develop that relationship because it matters to me. And again, when I say I see you, it's about seeing beyond your mask, your representative self, right? Beyond your clothes, your brands, your hair, your facial hair, what you drive, where you live. What you do, your job, your hobbies, all those things to me are distractions. But like, if the only thing in life that matters is how you feel about yourself when you're by yourself, that's where I want to go. Like, how do you really feel when you're all alone in your head, what's going on up there? And that's where I want to connect with people on, because I think that's the stuff that really will move the needle and we don't have to pretend anymore with each other. Right. We can truly trust that. If you tell me something or if you share something with me, which is why I share my story so openly, James, is because, you know, they say facts tell and story sell, but when you can connect with me through my story, when you can see yourself in my story, when you can connect with that, that's going to move more than me. Just like citing research and, you know, not academics is great, but some people just have academics without personal experience and people have a hard time connecting with that. And so I think that's the, that's the gap that I kind of bridge with our, with our company, with our trainings, with my speaking is like, yeah, I might not be a PhD that's done all this neuropsychological research, but this has been my life and this has been the hard part. This has been the fruits. This is what I've done, this is what I've seen in other people because I've worked in these specialty units, because I've done these things. And again, people really resonate with that and connect with that and it's why we've had the success we've had.

Yeah, I mean, I really admire, you know, clinical psychologists and researchers and I have them on the show as well, but there's something special about talking to people in the arena who've been there, who've, you know, fought in whatever arena it is. And you've certainly done that. And for the listener and the viewer, I'm going to pop in the show notes, the link to the documentary, and also the link to your TEDx talk. And let's not forget you have a best selling book called Unarmed. So I want to make sure that there's a link to that so people can go and buy your book. And I just want to say that that experience you had when you invaded Iraq with a young boy.

What you had to look around and experience was disgusting behavior from others and leaders and essentially representatives of leadership within the US military. And it's not good enough. And it's not acceptable. And clearly in many different places around the world, not just the US army, but there's clearly lots of that that still goes on. And what's interesting, I was thinking about it recently. So I interview leaders of countries and leaders of, you know, different military units. They're often male. And I go, who starts the war? Often male. I'm like, God, okay, so males are the problem. But then potentially males are also the solution. So if we can, like, heal these hurt traumatized young men before they become adults, then great, we might be able to reverse some things here. So the work that you do, I see is it goes deep into how do we actually stop things before they become a problem. And that being, you know, suicide. Like, when we get to that point and it happens, that's the problem. It's irreversible. How do we bring it back to, well, what does prevention look like? So.

When was the last time you wanted to take your own life?

The last time I.

Was in a dark space where I thought so. Honestly, James, it's so hard. And I'll be super candid with you, that's the first time that question's been asked to me probably in seven years. Aside from my therapist.

I was in Canada doing a speaking gig probably three months ago. It must have been maybe August.

Maybe August. And I was. And it was the morning of I was driving to go do this speaking gig for the Ontario Provincial Police. And it was a beautiful morning. A song came on, and I don't remember what song it was, but I remember just driving and I was dazed out and I was like.

I don't know if I want to do this anymore. And the thought lives with me. And something that I'm very honest with my therapist about is.

This idea that I love the life that I'm creating that I have. I love my relationship now with my children. I love the place that I'm in in my life, holistically, mostly. And.

What. The thing that shakes me the most, that feels so certain to me is that I don't know when it's going to happen, but I feel like when I do leave this world, it will be by suicide. And it feels certain. And I hate that so much. And again, I'm actively working through it because I don't want that to be the case. But the amount of normalcy that I think that I've created in my head and the amount that I've seen it right, that I've become so desensitized to it, because both in the military. And as a police officer, I've seen it so much that the mystery of it no longer intrigues me. The. The idea or the notion about, like, how would I. Or what would I like, all of that is just solid. So now it's just a matter of, like, the choice. And I have to actively work towards, like, when I get in those moments, I have to really reflect. And my therapist is phenomenal and I've been with her for over six years now. And I just share with. Shared this with her a couple of weeks ago again of, you know.

I don't know what it is, but I just get in this headspace where I'm like, man, things are going well in my life. Like, financially, I'm better than I've ever been. My relationship with my kids, I'm better than I've ever been. And yet it feels like no matter what I do or how much I achieve or what I accomplish, for me to be the truest, most authentic, real version of myself, it cannot happen without it bringing pain to someone else. And I think that's an old story that I'm holding onto. And that's been the thing that I'm still trying to work through and heal because that's a terrible thought to have. But that feels so true to me is like, I have to always have some bit of armor up or I have to do some level of like, posturing or pretending or placating or people pleasing or do something that neglects my truest self. Because if people really knew or saw who I truly was, they would be hurt by that. And I don't want to hurt people. Like, I. I think I'm a good person. And yet it's like, it doesn't come at a cost. And I know that's a weird answer, but that's. It lives with me frequently. And the last time I really sat probably with contemplation of, like, what if I just do this gig and then head to my hotel and just call. It was probably three, four months ago up in Canada. And it was just this idea of like, something about like, hey, I'm in this other country, I'm here by myself. I'm here for work, I'm going to do my thing. And then. And then it's the curiosity of it all of, like, how long would it be before someone knew? Like, would anyone care? And that's just the old stuff that's coming up. Because of course, like, right now, with my lucid mind and have this conversation, like, I can name all kinds of people that would care. Right? Like, I know for a fact my kids would care, my wife would care, my friends would care, but if it doesn't mean that, that's. Those things are not present when you're in those dark moments. And again, as someone that's been there for 20, 25 years of struggling with those thoughts, it's. It's hard to, you know, it's hard to like, fully kick them. I. I long for a. I long for a life where I can wake up and not just have that kind of sitting on the back shelf.

Joe, thank you for sharing that. Thank you for going there. And I think it's important that we do go there and as humans, we do talk about that stuff because the people that are left behind are hurt and do care. And often they're asking themselves, shit, what could I have done? What should I have asked? As I said, I have two friends, one 50 years old and one 18, both male, died this year through suicide. I'm like, what was I missing? Like, what? I was in LA at the time, just flying home actually from LA when I got news of Stu. And like, God, I just seen him a couple of weeks ago. We were texting just a few days ago, like, I'm an idiot. Like, I didn't ask him about how his thoughts are and what I can do to help. And so I think it's really amazing and courageous and it's very much a service mindset of you going, hey, I'm going to give and I'm going to talk and it can't be easy.

What can we do? You know, people who are around, say, yourself and you are in a dark space. Is there anything that helps or anything in the past where someone has said something, done something or not said something and it's actually helped you and you went, oh, shit, no, life's worth living.

Yeah.

I think for me it's, you know, the smallest things matter most. You know, we tend to think. And I appreciate what you shared there, James, is that anytime there is a suicide, I think anyone that cared about that person immediately goes to a little bit of blame with reflection of, like, trying to find, was this a thing that I missed? This, is this my fault?

Right?

And to me, like, I don't want to ever be that burden to someone.

And the reality is, is that as I look at my rearview mirror of life, it's like, man, all I've been is a burden. Like, to, you know, I've my four kids from three different women. Like, you know, I love all of my children. They know that I have these conversations with them. But, like, nothing about it was traditional. None of them planned, right? None of them, like, oh, I'm in a committed relationship, like, would you like to have a baby? It was always out of just a moment of crisis or an affair or like. And so it's made it very difficult on myself. But that's 100% my responsibility, right? And I'm not blaming my mother, my father. I'm not blaming any. I truly live life right now by, like, everything is my fault, meaning, I have to take full ownership of everything that's happening in my life now. I also learned something that I just want to share with you and your listeners, James, in case no one has heard this, but. And this has been true for me, but it's that I've learned to become grateful for the things I wish never happened. And when I shared my story and you apologized for it, and I genuinely appreciate that because I can just feel your empathy and your sincerity. But I am in a place of gratitude now because it's those moments, it's those stories, it's those trials, it's those. It's those dark moments that create this opportunity for me now to, like, help other people and to love on other people and to. And to see the darkness in them, maybe even before they see it in themselves. Because I've been in that place for so long. But to answer your question specifically for me, it's like anything that goes beyond the surface level, right? Like, we all have. We have our friends, we have our group text, we have our, you know, our Instagram DMs, we have like all these clicks and these things that it's like, it's kind of rooted in humor or it's very surface level stuff. But if you really think about it, and this is kind of an invitation and a challenge to everyone listening to this or watching this. But when was the last time, like, you genuinely reached out to someone to just say, like, hey, no motive. I'm not asking for anything of you, but I'm just. I'm just checking in, like, how are things in your life? And I just, you know what? Because I think. And I'm guilty of this, too. I think of a lot of people a lot of times. But I'm like, I hate talking on the phone. Oh, I speak for a living. All I do is talk. I'm talking all the time, right? I'm talking. I'm on podcast. I don't want to get on the phone. And so I'll just text it. But, like, we know that there's a drop off in that, right? So, like, are you prioritizing the people in your life when you have a thought about them? Are you allowing that to not just be good enough of, like, oh, I just had this thought and that. That feels nice, but they have no idea you had that thought. And then even if it is a text, that's better than nothing, but maybe don't. Especially as men, I think men are very guilty of this. But because we're so uncomfortable expressing our feelings, we. We resort to humor too often, and we'll play with each other and just be like, inappropriate and playful and joke around and, you know, like, kind of like the locker room and bar talk stuff. But that's. That. That, to me is you're missing a huge opportunity and there's a time and place for that. I'm. I'm a champion of doing that. And I think if you were to isolate somebody, call them up on the side, just say, hey, I was just thinking about you. I just. I really wanted to check in and just see how are things going at home? Right? Like, that question right there. It was a question that I would ask every time I got dispatched to a school as a police officer. You know, you mentioned you were a teacher, James. Every time I got called to a school for a child acting out, every time I would introduce myself, I'd say, hey, you're not in any trouble with me. I'm here to help you out. But I would say before we go right to the hospital or whatever's got to happen, I just want to talk to you a little bit. And I would always ask them, like, what does home look like for you? Because I want them to know that, like, listen, I believe that the reason you're acting out in school right now is because you don't have a stable, safe place. You're probably hungry, you're afraid you're being abused. Something is not going well at home. And so this is your place to come and escape and have fun and, like, do all the things trying to distract and avoid. But the truth is you're hurting. And I genuinely want to know. And so, like, I'm giving you this opportunity, but please tell me, because I care. But, like, what does home look like? And to see them just break, whereas the school is just quick to punish, quick to sanction, right? Like, oh, they're acting out. They're a problem child. And I'm like, well, yeah, but can you even imagine what's happening in Their home. Because this was me, right? My nickname was Smiley. In high school, I was the class clown. Every year in high school, it's in the yearbooks. And I was suicidal at 15 years old. And because I got really good at pretending everything's great, everything's a joke.

Hahaha.

We use sense of humor. It's funny. But I was suffering miserably anytime I was alone. And so I could see that in children too. And I was like, hey, I don't want to add to this. And again, I try to practice what I preach, even to my children. If a teacher calls home or I get an email home, like, hey, your son was talking in class or being disruptive right away I have a human reaction of like, oh my God, they know better. How dare they? I pause, I breathe, I remember like, hey, what do we teach? And then when I talk to them, I say, hey, listen. Both can be true. I can be disappointed, and I still love you. But I also want to know why, like, what. What's happening in your life that it was more important for you to get in trouble than it was to do the right thing? Because I know you know the right thing. You just chose not to do it. So that tells me something bigger is going on. And the conversations I have with my kids now, it's unbelievable because they're willing to see, like, man, dad has come a long way. And I feel bad for my daughter, who's 25, because she's like, you've never talked to me like this. And I was like, hey, once you know better, you do better, right? And so I apologize to her weekly, but she sees a very different version of me with my. With my boys, because I've been so engaged in learning myself, healing myself, helping myself. And I think that's just a lesson that everyone could take is the more you do for yourself, the more you can learn to love yourself and heal yourself and process who you are. That's when you can better show up for other people. But showing up for other people and doing for other people and being others centered at the cost of neglecting yourself is never sustainable.

100% agree. And, you know, I want to think for a little bit about something you said a minute ago around, like, placating and placating others and, you know, kind of putting on this mask. And that often brings you a lot of darkness, you know. What's your greatest fear of being truly yourself?

Yeah, that. That it doesn't come without a cost of creating pain in someone else. That.

That.

And it's so funny. It's what's the name? Monday, Saturday, I was in I was in therapy on Saturday having this conversation. This has been my my, my most recent, but it's been.

10, 12 years. But my hurdle has been faith, religion, spirituality. And I want to make this point because I think it relates to what you said earlier of, like, when you have sexual abuse or physical abuse of trauma, you either get into gangs or may say cults or the military. And to me, yes, I joined the military because it was just like, it was the natural thing as soon as we found out we were pregnant. My best friend in high school was in the delayed entry program. And so he was a senior, but he was already, like, doing Marine Corps stuff on the weekends. So he knew. So he told the recruiter, the recruiter.