Kieran Read on Leadership, Pressure and High Performance

This week's special guest is Kieran Reid, former captain of the All Blacks and the Crusaders, a leader of great humans, someone who's taken teams to the top heights in sport. Usually Kieran and I are in shorts and a hoodie and walking up a hill, but we actually got to sit down in studio and record something special for you all around leadership. I hope you enjoy it. Kieran, a huge welcome to the Habits of High Performers podcast.

Good to see you. Yeah, good to see you too, James. Very nice to be here.

You know, usually we're a bit overdressed. I usually wear shorts and a hoodie heading up a hill.

Yeah, it's normally a better way to kind of connect, but mate, you got to do these things, don't you? 100%. It's a nice spot here.

Yeah, sitting down in studio, it's fun. So, we're going to talk a little bit about leadership today and lots about habits. I guess where I'd like to start is you've had a couple of great leaders yourself that you've probably looked up to, learned from. So, a couple that come to mind that I've met and I respect is Razor, Scott Robertson, and Steve Hansen. Steve Hansen. So if we could start there, when you look at those as leaders, what was the one thing from each of them that you were like, oh, it's an amazing leadership trait, they did this really well, or I really was inspired by that?

Yeah, as you said, I've been very lucky to have some amazing coaches across my career, and that, yeah, pulled out two of those guys. Uh, for me, Razor, um, I caught him at the back end of my career. I'd had a long career, I was kind of captain the All Blacks. I was, you know, last few years of my Crusaders career. And just his ability to, I think, pull out the best of a whole squad, I think, is what I saw in him. And, you know, leadership's more— it's about inspiration, right? It's about painting a future for a group of people or a team to go after. And he was definitely someone who was great at that in the Crusaders. And you know, in that period of time where we'd gone a few years without winning a title, came in and, um, just was able to show a group of, group of men that, hey, look, yes, we're still that great team and, uh, something to go after. So I, you know, definitely look up to Razor in that essence of how you inspire.

Can I ask, like, before we look at Steve, how did Razor do that? How did he paint a vision so that 30-plus people could go, oh, that looks cool, that's exciting, we want to go after that.

Yeah, he used a lot of visuals, he used a lot of storytelling, I guess, which is, um, you know, visceral for people. Like, in a game like rugby, um, emotions do come into it. I think emotions, when used in the right way, an appropriate way, are very powerful, and you build a connection to something. So essentially, you build a purpose around what you're trying to achieve, and bringing a bit of emotion to that connection is great for a team and it builds motivation and builds kind of desire and drive to go after things. So, you know, his ability to just tell that story in maybe a visual way for a lot of guys was beneficial. Like, for me personally, I probably looked at it and, you know, didn't maybe need all that story, you know. Like, I'm the type of person that can find that internal drive and find ability to connect to, to who we are and what we go after. So, um, but everyone be different, right? Yeah. So it's like you got to be able to connect everyone and find the common picture. So, um, yeah, I certainly respected what he did in that space. Yeah.

And what about Steve? That was one of the things that stood out from him.

Yeah, Steve was in some ways the same but different in his approach. Yeah, his ability to say the right thing, say the thing at the right time, I think was, wasn't really his kind of greatest strength, his superpower. Very intuitive coach, not someone who's, you know, necessarily going to be watching all the footage, thousands and thousands of hours like a few other coaches I've had, but someone who knew exactly what was needed at the right time. I remember my, one of my first interactions with Steve before my first test was in Edinburgh in Scotland, uh, that week. I was pretty nervous, obviously, going into my first game. And, you know, he called me into his room for a one-on-one meeting. And, uh, you know, I didn't quite know what the personal— what personality Steve was. So look, I wrote down in my book all these things that I wanted to work on and, and wanted to go in there quite prepared around, um, you know, what I was going to bring to the team. And I walked into his room and You know, Steve just said to me, he said, shut your book here. And he's like, mate, it's, uh, like, I'm here to help you be a 100-test All Black. I'm here to help you be a great, great leader in the team. And I was like, what are you on? You know, like, I hadn't played one, one game and he's telling me this. And I guess he's finding little ways to, to connect to people's real drive. Um, and he's not saying that to everyone, you know, but I think he, he knew in me he could find a way to, you know, pull the best out of what I wanted to achieve. And I immediately walked out of that room and said, you know, what's this guy on? Yeah, you know, but that's planting the seed, right? He's just planted the seed. And that's leadership for me. It's someone who can, um, you know, inspire a future that you don't know is quite there, uh, and then genuinely giving me opportunities across my career. Like, here's my old back coach across my whole career, um, giving you chances to improve your leadership, giving you opportunities to do that, empowering you. And so I certainly felt that from Steve, his ability to do that was great.

Hey, James here. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about something. Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops for teams and companies all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from armies to small businesses to large corporates to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers, around the habits of high performers, about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please get in touch with my team. Caroline@jjloughlin.com will be able to help. I'll also make sure that we put that in the show notes. It's incredible when you look at what you achieved working with them, because I look at a captain and a head coach and it's very special relationship, and it has to be positive, it has to be collaborative. There's also got to be healthy friction and be able to navigate that. But you clearly did that really well with both of those, and there's other great coaches that you work with as well. So if we go back and just look at some tactical habits for a second, and we'll go a bit deeper afterwards, but For the person that's listening right now going, you were at the top and you're with the All Blacks and they were the greatest of all time team, what were some of your habits? So what are some of the tactical things you would have done? You talked about this book and reflecting on your weaknesses and your strengths. What things were you doing to keep your leadership at its best?

Yeah, look, I think you build the habits over time, being in a role. And yeah, the habits, I don't know, habits, the structures, the routines that you create, define the type of person or player you're going to be at the end of the day, right? So I was very lucky, had some good people around me to help me build the structure. And so essentially, after a few years of playing at the top level, I had a structure that I kept for my entire career, right? Uh, which for some can seem pretty boring and you're doing the similar stuff, but, um, I think just when you do a bit more research into how your brain works and stuff and what, you know, you know, it's the habits and structure just really help it put yourself in a great frame of mind, get yourself in a great ability to, to do stuff consistently over and over again, which is what you need when you get put under pressure. So, uh, yeah, the habits became huge. Uh, one is reflection. So I think it's probably the most common thing now. Um, when I, when I look into maybe people who don't achieve their potential. It's the reflection piece is sometimes, I think, the thing that gets left behind. Uh, we're worried about the next thing or, um, doing what we're doing right now, um, but forgetting to just reflect on where we're at and looking at things that we can improve on. So I really structured that part of my career.

Um, was that a daily thing?

Not really, like, it's daily in terms of in my head, um, but writing it down on a Sunday after I've done my, uh, review of my performance. So the structure in my review was, was the same, um, every week, looking at my own personal game and then where I can move forward. And essentially what I wanted out of that review was 2 or 3 critical things that I needed that were going to help me improve before the next week. Uh, so having those down on paper, um, you can't have too many. This, you know, like For us, seasons are long, but each week's its own season in its own way. So there's certain things that you need to try and improve on within 7 days to get right before the next week. So what's going to have the biggest impact on that performance the following week, that's the critical one that I, I'm trying to nail. And then I plan that, put it into my kind of my structure of my week. As I said, I wouldn't be changing too much. I had things that I needed to be good at um, on a Saturday. And rugby is a pretty simple game, so don't go too far from those strengths of mine. So they're the key ones. And then you, you'd put in a couple extra, you know, minutes on this thing that maybe I need to focus on a bit more this week.

Um, what I hear there as well is that you mentioned Saturday. So if someone's listening right now who's an athlete, they'll get it. But for the person that's listening right now that's not an athlete, um, their Saturday could be the board meeting. Their Saturday could be the big sales pitch they've got to deliver to the customer, whatever. So what I'm hearing is you don't actually need to be your best all day Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. You need to be your best when you need to be your best. And sometimes that's a critical training and critical performance moment.

Would that be fair? It would be fair. I think, you know, what have you got? Your battery is 100%, right? You're never going to be at 100% and give 100% every time. So yes, that's the ultimate. And ideally we get to set the Saturday performance or whatever performance it is and have that battery as high as you can, but I can guarantee you're never ever going to be at 100%. Yeah. Um, okay, so, you know, how high can we get that battery to when we do have to have that performance? That's, that's great. Um, and then within that battery, 100% of whatever it is that we can give, right? Uh, so, you know, making— understanding that helps you. And I think, you You know, that's having a mindset of, you know, building. So, you know, one of Steve Hansen's famous kind of building of a week, you know, or a season or whatever you want to call it, is getting through clarity. So be really clear on what you're trying to achieve. Build intensity. So, you know, obviously when you're delivering a performance, you need to be at a level of intensity that's going to allow you to be high performing. And bring accuracy. So when you are, that performance requires a bit of accuracy. So you build through clarity, intensity, and accuracy across time, and in that order, to be able to make sure that you can nail it when it matters.

So I love that that's stuck with you. So CIA is the acronym I'm hearing there. Yeah, I love that. Clarity, intensity, accuracy. And I guess that again, that applies to everything in life.

It applies everywhere, right? Kidsport, wherever, right? If you go in and just automatically try and do the thing. You know, it's hard and you're going to make mistakes and what have you, but if it's important, then it's going to hurt you, right? So, hey, you know, build that clarity exactly. Maybe the reasons why, you know, what we're trying to achieve, everything within it. You know, go through some simple kind of preparation planning. Build some intensity. It might only even be in your head, right? So, you know, go through, visualize what that boardroom is going to look like, you know, what could be that question that could put you off, you know, visualize that intensity of what maybe that tough conversation could be, and then be really, you know, accurate around what it is that you really want to achieve. And I think it helps you everywhere. So yeah, definitely use that still now. Um, yeah, all the time.

I love it. And you mentioned mindset, so I want to tie that back to something you said even earlier, was when you had your first one-to-one in Edinburgh with Steve and you got your notes and he closed your book. I'm here to help you become a 100-test All Black and a great leader. So mindset, before you'd walked into that meeting, had you thought about 100 tests? Had that been part of your thinking or not really?

No, right? No, I hadn't. Like, I You know, it was amazing, a dream to be an All Black, uh, you know, but I, I never— I wanted to be an awesome— I think I had that dream, and even at school I had this thing that I want to be a great All Black, and, you know, but I didn't go to a school that really had a pathway. It wasn't like a traditional pathway from the school that I went to, um, so I didn't know it was possible, um. So I got opportunities probably once I left school and found myself into a couple of systems. But, uh, I probably carried that mentality of being the kid from the small school who wasn't in the, you know, wasn't the cool group. And, you know, when I did make some teams, I sat back and I was quiet and I was, um, didn't offer anything because I wasn't too sure if I'd belong, you know. Um, and probably had that mentality through the start of my career and even as it came continue to progress. It was quite a nice mindset to have in the back of the mind to keep me going. But yeah, I definitely— and when I started for the All Blacks, it was like, man, get one.

Yeah.

And then, um, you get a taste for it though, and you know, I had something, I had a drive in me to, to keep pursuing, you know, whatever it was that was put in front of me. Uh, and I love progression, I loved improvement.

So for you, it's about growth and learning and continually developing. For me, that was, that was the motivation.

Yeah, like being able to— I genuinely feel like being a better player when I finished than when I started. And, you know, people would debate around exactly when you're at your peak and things like that, but I genuinely feel like, yeah, I had so much more knowledge when I finished than when I started. And I think, yeah, you keep getting better. Um, you know, your body might slow down a little bit, but your mind is so much more in tune, and you've doing things so much quicker and everything, you know, by the time you finish than when I started. And I think that's everywhere. So that mindset of just wanting to improve, I think, was there from a very young age. And in the All Blacks, it certainly drove me, like, more than, you know, probably the numbers and things like that. Certainly when you're connected in the group, the achievements and things and outcomes are great, but Mostly trying to get better and being alongside some awesome people who are doing that.

I think that's really important for a leader to be listening to right now. What I hear is there are two types of people. There are know-it-alls and learn-it-alls. And someone who's a know-it-all who walks into the All Blacks probably won't make it to 100 tests, but someone who's a learn-it-all will likely make it to 2, 3, 5, 10, 20, and beyond, possibly. So that mindset of being curious rather than being, I'm the legend, I know everything, it's really important.

Uh, huge. Yeah. So in professional sport and rugby, and most definitely in the All Blacks environment, you have to be able to learn and you have to be able to adapt and, and be quick at getting better at what you're trying to achieve. And you also have to be able to handle a bit of, um, stuff that comes your way, right? And if you're in that learn mindset, then when you do make your mistakes you look for ways that you can improve off them, right? So coaches will give you feedback. Hey, you've got to be good at handling that feedback, that criticism, or whatever's coming your way. And in fact, in a rugby environment, sometimes you've got to handle that criticism in the middle of a room with all your mates around you watching you get hammered for something, right? So, and that's tough. That's not fun. It's not fun. Uh, but the mindset of the team of wanting to learn and get better and grow allows you to be good at that. So I think that's what, um, you have to be good at, you know, as, as you progress, um, you know, through your, through your career. Um, and most definitely the great ones do that and they adapt and grow in different ways.

100%. And it's interesting you said, you know, I went to a school that didn't necessarily have a direct pathway to the All Blacks. So a lot of people that are, say, not athletes listening to that would be like, yeah, I've got some form of imposter syndrome, or I've got a story of I wasn't given this, so I can't do that. But you said a very important word. You said, I didn't know if it was possible or not. And everything in life is all about possibilities. Can you embrace possibilities? What allowed you to go to that school that probably the chances of you making an All Black were slim? What allowed you to think this is possible? Is there anybody or anything that happened that helped that?

Yeah. Trace it— well, I trace, I guess, the ability to see improvement and want to learn and grow to my parents, I think, and especially my dad. Um, he said that pretty early on around being outside and, and chucking a ball around and making sure I, I could tangibly see my improvement through being out there and doing things. And that was just early, and it was just fun when I was a kid. I didn't You know, I didn't know at the time it was making me learn to love working hard and things, but it certainly helped. Uh, so when I, I had an opportunity to go to a big school, um, a school that's created a lot of All Blacks, and in my kind of— when I was 14 and I did that, and, uh, I turned it down after some time, after a year, and I went back to my school in Papakura in South Auckland. And so if you, you know, if you're trying to become an All Black, you stay at the school, you stay in the system, and you keep going. Um, and I said no to it because I wasn't comfortable. I wasn't— I had a real sense of wanting to belong, and I wanted to go back to the school that I was— I felt comfortable, and I had mates there. I, um, it was close to home and things like that. So I had a value that in some ways for a 14-year-old kid to have and stick to them, like be really authentically you, uh, you know, I don't know where it came from, but I can sense that I had something in me that, um, you know, knew who they were and didn't want to deviate too far from that. Um, so that's something I guess within me that helped me, I think, as I progressed into into rugby later on. And then at Rosehill College, my school there, um, there was a PE teacher, James Fraser, and he was probably the guy who, um, you know, as a leader, um, gave me the confidence to believe in myself a little bit.

What did he do to give you that confidence?

Uh, so he invested time. Um, you know, we were training our first 15 you know, twice a week for an hour after school, you know, like parents were coaching the team, uh, you know, giving their all. Um, we're scraping together a team, you know, like, and this is a big school, but we just, you know, um, James said to me at kind of the start of the season, he's like, mate, I think you can give this thing a crack this year, you know. Um, and I was open to, to do that. So yeah, um He helped me out with some nutrition, so allowed me to go to the tuck shop and get a filled roll and a chocolate milk every day. So on top of my lunch, I was boosting my nutrition. Um, you know, he kind of wrote out a gym program. I hadn't been in the gym before in my life, and, you know, started doing that. Not that I was— um, and then also the last thing, he kind of said, I'll meet you on the school field twice a week at 7 AM. And we can do some extra training. Unreal. Yeah, he drove in from Auckland, I kind of came in from home, you know, and just me and him on, on the field in the middle of winter, cold mornings, and, uh, just running lengths. I was tackling him, uh, getting over the ball, doing all these skills, all these things that I guess, um, everyone else is doing. But, uh, you know, I just— and it was just me and him. And, uh, so I reinforced, hey, I've got some confidence, he's got confidence in me. Uh, which I was like, okay. But then also the whole ability to not wait for things to come your way. Like, you can't just wait to be selected, right? You can control how hard you're working, you can control those little things that you can get better at. So, uh, he put that in into my mind that, yeah, I can come here, I can work on these little things, these extra things that are going to help me in the long run, and you know, that little spark. And I just— and I was never— still didn't know where it could take me. But suddenly I went from Rosehill to Counties, Manukau Secondary Schools, to Northern Regions, to making the New Zealand Secondary Schools team, um, you know, that year.

So yeah, in a very short space of time.

Yeah, 6 months. Yeah, wild.

Yeah. But he's like, um, the ultimate leader when you think about it. If someone's listening right now through a— like, I'm a manager or I'm a leader, like James Fraser's kind of got it all there.

Well, I think that's it. Like, I think if you're actually trying to— if you're the leader, you are helping people, right? And, and so you're pouring into them.

Exactly.

And the other ones you look up to, everyone's got that probably person maybe in their childhood or someone that they're looking up to that without them you don't— you aren't where you are today.

Yeah.

And they are 100% leaders in what they've, what they've done, right? And essentially it's just going, okay, this is the person in front of me, how do I best, get the most out of them. And, um, yeah, yeah, it's amazing to have, you know, someone who's just a teacher at the school putting all this extra time in, um, and effort into not just— and there was other, other kids in the school, sports kids as well, that he helped out. So, uh, it's pretty, pretty special, pretty epic.

It's only that my hero is my headmaster, and, you know, he poured into me as well. But something I spent a bit of time with, uh, Barack Obama's most senior advisor And he said that there was 3 things that Barack would always try to instill in his leaders when they were thinking about other people. So he said to his leaders, you need to appreciate that everyone that you're leading will be asking 3 questions subconsciously. First one, do you care about me? Second one, do you value me? And third one, will you help me grow and succeed? And those 3 questions, as you would tell me the James Fraser story, I was like, he did all of that really really well.

Yeah, he did, um, 100%. And I, I think I carried that with me too, I guess, as I became a leader in certain sides. Um, like I mentioned, I didn't feel like a leader, uh, because I was from the school and I was a shy kid. I was pretty quiet. Um, and all the leaders you saw around the world and things were, you know, we're loud, we're good at speaking, we're all those things, kind of extroverted and things like that, whereas I didn't feel that way. Um, so, but I loved to— I could connect with people, um, and I could make people trust me. I could, you know, make them feel like I valued them. And so definitely, as it— as I grew my leadership, I— that was the cornerstone of, um, you know, how I based my style, I guess, was off that. Um, and I built all the other skills around that and grew them, which you need to do as a leader.

And what I like about it, Kieran, is you're saying that you're not given a manual or an MBA on, hey, here's how to be a leader, just go and do the thing and you'll be great. It's, you've got to be in the field, you've got to be trying, you've got to be learning, making mistakes, get the external learning as well as you're going, and coaching perhaps. But actually, it's a journey of building a skill set as opposed to, hey, one and done?

Yeah, 100%. I think it's that whole journey across time, right? I'm a better leader now than I was when I was captain in the All Blacks, and I was better leader then than I was when I left school, right? So that's just how it is, you know. There's constantly things that you can do to improve, and through that, you know, watching, listening, learning, um, to other people was probably, you know, really important. But then also you know, trying things and going, okay, this is something that I can improve on. Hey, what can I do to get better at it? So, you know, I, you know, when I think about growing leaders, um, you, uh, give them confidence. So first of all, you've got to show that you believe in them, um, and then help them believe in themselves that they're good enough. And then, but that's, that's just words, right? Yeah. And so it's like, okay, you actually genuinely have to give them opportunities to lead. You've got to hand over the keys and say, okay, I trust you, you know, take the risk, go for it. And I'm not going to be, you know, yes, I'm there to help you, but you don't hover over them. You don't try and, um, you know, make sure you're, you're always there. Just let them, let them do it so they can make mistakes and, and learn and things like that.

And Um, if we took leadership out of it for a second, that could be parenting. What you just said, yeah, is equally applicable to parenting, you know, like get out of their way, give them a shot, you know, believe in them, let them believe in themselves, and then hand them the keys essentially.

Yes, 100%. And, uh, within that there's certain ways you can do that, right? Like make it fun and give them opportunities to learn, uh, and that's, you know, I Probably as a parent myself, I think, um, that is crucial. And it's sometimes so hard, right, when you see your kids out there and you want— you just want to give them the answer. Or, you know, especially my kids are all into sport and I coach all of them in different sports, um, and you just want to, after the game, tell them exactly, you know, what they could do to be better. But it's like, they did some amazing things. And it's, you know, I just, I know I need to shut my mouth and just kind of like just let them sit in what they've learned from the game. And hey, if they ask for a little bit of advice, I might give them something, but maybe do it through asking questions, um, you know, and, and things. Um, so, but you know, it's, it's pretty special, right? Like if you can find a bond and find a way to progress someone else, I think that's one of the best feelings in the world.

Yeah, it's really empowering as a leader to be able to do that. Yeah. We go back to the— you're in the All Blacks, you're not quite captain yet. Yeah. What was it like when you were named captain? Can you remember any of the details of that moment?

Uh, so yeah, my very first time was 2012. So, uh, it was in Italy. Uh, Richie got, um, rested I think that week. And so was, you know, told, um, I was gonna be captain, which was pretty surreal. Uh, like, probably one of the weeks where I got the most messages from friends and family. Um, kind of took me back to like the debut week. So suddenly you got all these nerves again around— suddenly all these people that, you know, for a long time stopped texting you before a Test match, um, text you again and So you realize the significance of what it meant, and it was very special, a huge honor, uh, you know. But it was just a one-off, um, and I did that about 12 times before I was named the official captain. Um, and I guess over that period when I was, you know, kind of the vice captain and captain when Richie was, was, was out, um yeah, I kind of started to find my groove, and I started in my head saying, I want this, and I wanted to have an impact on this team. And, uh, so yeah, I was 100% ready for it, uh, for 2016 when, when it came my way. And, you know, like, it wasn't the— yeah, at that time, because I'd done it a number of times before, it wasn't the big, okay, you know, massive honor. It was just like, okay, I want to make sure I do this to the best of my ability, and I want us, um, I want to have a huge impact on the team as, um, real positively. So yeah, that's where I was, I guess, when I was named officially captain.

And what I hear there is it's about the team. And what I like about that is that leadership shouldn't be about you, it should be about others. And when people make it about them, we tend to see ego come into play. I mean, if we look at global politics, and we don't need to name names, but We see some international country leaders who are really about themselves and not about the people, and it's catastrophic at a global level. And I imagine in business and sport, it's also catastrophic in a results level, in a culture level, retention, all of that. Have you seen that where people are more self-focused?

Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so it sets a standard, right? So in everything, the leaders set the standard of where the team's gonna head and what they value is what the team's gonna eventually value, right? So, you know, if the leader's self-obsessed and all about them, then they're the type of people within the team that are gonna, um, end up coming to the top, right? So, so you can't sustainably build culture and build, um, something great with that. Uh, you know, people have different ways of doing things, um, but I 100% think it's Leadership's around the people, and it's around how you best get the most out of them. Um, and it comes from making sure that you value who they are, um, get a good understanding of who they are, and then build connections and build, um, connections with them one-on-one, but also into a purpose and into what you're trying to achieve. You know, then that builds a team that's, you know, in terms of cultures is balanced and is willing to kind of see through tough times, push itself to new boundaries. And so, you know, the All Blacks, when I was there, was in that, um, a great culture. And what I saw when I first came in was it was led by those leaders, the players, and, um, the other guys who, as a young guy, you come and you look up to and you see their behaviors, you see their actions. And you see what they do, and that's how you learn.

I like that. It's not the— essentially, the CEO is not saying, this is how we behave. It's like actually all of the management, all of the people that have been there a while can say, hey, you're new around here, this is how we do things. So it's actually embraced by everyone.

Yeah, I think it's— yeah, it's very easy to say what you, you want, um, but yeah, until you actually see it, see the actions and see the behaviors of, of people, that's where the— that's where it really comes out, right? And, and you kind of that's the essence of what the team is. Yeah. So yeah, how you actually behave when you get put under pressure, how you interact with not only teammates or not only, you know, work colleagues, it's, it's how you interact with maybe clients or customers. Uh, that's the true example of kind of how the team actually operates. So, um, yeah, those actions have to reflect those, the values and the standards that you have within an organization.

Yeah, 100% agree. And pressure's an interesting word that you bring up. We can all perform really quite well when there's no pressure. We can perform well when nothing's happening, there's nobody around. But as soon as the pressure goes on, the cameras are there, the deal's got to get done, we start to perform differently. So can you think back, say in the All Blacks, to a moment where the pressure was at its absolute highest? What comes to mind when you think of a high-pressure moment?

Ah, there's a few, but I'm pretty sure 2011 Rugby World Cup was probably one of the highest pressure moments. Um, what made it high pressure for you? Well, look, uh, the All Blacks hadn't won a World Cup for 24 years. So 1987, we won the World Cup. Every 4 years since that period, uh, you know, we'd been one of the better teams in the world, right? Either number one in the world or close to it, and perform really well. And then when you got to the World Cups, we, you know, hadn't quite nailed it, so— or failed in the eyes of New Zealanders. So it'd been 24 years, 2011 was coming, we're back at home in New Zealand. And in New Zealand, the fans and everyone expects the All Blacks to win every game, so the expectation's always there. But you put a World Cup and you put it at home, then it just, just ramps up even more, right? So, uh, it was hard to— like, we talked about what it was going to be like, um, you know, but until you're in it, you don't know, right? And it's special. It was really special, um, to be in a World Cup at home and have the fans, you know, do things that they don't normally do for an All Blacks test and things. Be out around the town waiting outside our hotel rooms and stuff, which doesn't normally happen. And so it culminated, I guess, in the final Eden Park, October in 2011, playing France, a bogey team for the All Blacks in World Cups. And yeah, like, I think I just remember thinking that we had to win. And you know, you never want to be thinking outcomes. You want to be thinking process and, and nailing it. Um, so we've done a lot of work around what pressure actually does to you physically, what it does to you mentally, and how you can bring yourself back. So a lot of reframing of those thoughts of, um, you know, getting away from, you know, what happens if we lose, to, you know, how cool will it be if we win, you know. So that type of stuff, that self-talk was a big self-talk, became quite a big thing. It actually became a big thing in my in my career. Um, but yeah, the bus ride to the game, you know, the, the— it's 5K or so from CBD Auckland to Eden Park, or probably more. And it was just lined with people the whole way. Yeah, they're clapping you and just like, you know, how did that feel? That just ramped up nerves and the pressure even more, right? I felt it was amazing to see, but you're going, oh, we cannot let down these people, in my own mind, you know. So that reframing of the thoughts was important. Um, and crazy thing was, like, I had those nerves and everything right up till, you know, I ran out on the field, and then it kind of disappeared. And I was like, man, this is where I should be, you know, this is, uh, my natural habitat is out between the white lines. And, um, felt really calm on the field, and then off it was, you know, even halftime, you kind of suddenly very hard to calm that mind because you start thinking about future, what could happen. Um, so yeah, finding ways to get yourself back into the moment became really crucial. And so yeah, we did a lot of work around bringing your attention back to now. And so if you look at any great, you know, whether it's a sports person or someone who's, you know, a business leader or anyone Um, they're great because they're in the moment and they're nailing their attention to where it needs to be. Uh, it allows them to make great decisions, allows them to be present with whoever's in front of them. Uh, so yeah, that's the key. That's beautiful. Um, and so there's certain techniques and things you can do to, to make sure you, you stay in that moment. Um, because yeah, we— you don't want to get stuck in the past or the future. So That's awesome.

So it brings me to a friend of mine, Scott, Scott O'Neill. So he's currently running Live Golf, but he was running the 76ers and Madison Square Garden, and he wrote a book called Be Where Your Feet Are. Yeah, amazing book. And it's a very simple concept, like, look down at your feet. Where am I right now? Just be there mentally. Yeah. Don't be somewhere else. And then like NLP, so the neuro-linguistic programming, a lot of anchoring tools to go Okay, I'm nervous, I'm thinking about what if we win, what if we lose. Like, just being able to touch, just do something physically with your fist or your toe, or— and that brings you back in. Did you get exposed to some of those things?

Yeah, so like, we were pretty lucky, like Gilbert Inoka, um, in that space, and Kerry Evans, um, who— Kerry Evans, under pressure. Under pressure, yeah. So it's the redhead, blue head. So around how you, you know, under pressure or under threat, you can go to redhead, which essentially is your monkey brain, like that brain that, you know, now we get put under pressure, we go there and we suddenly can't think and can't, um, you know, make great decisions. So, um, yeah, I had a— you know, what I do now, what I learned across my career, it's like you got to make sure you recognize when you're there. It's probably the hardest thing, you know, because when you do get put under pressure and you go to that red head or monkey brain, your conscious brain switches off. So you, in that moment, you don't know what you're doing. Yes, it's as if you've been knocked out or something, you know. So that's maybe the hardest thing. And so recognizing that you're there, so you can plan for maybe some things that would put you into that situation. So maybe a conversation that you're potentially, you're going to have come leading up, uh, what are some things that they could say that could make you feel a little bit, um you know, anxious or under pressure, uh, like on a game. Like, I realized that early on my career, like, if I missed a tackle, I kind of, you know, got a bit flustered because I was thinking about making up for it, trying to do something for the team without actually being in the moment. So it kind of put me off my game for a little bit. Uh, so I knew that was a trigger. So I knew that when I missed a tackle, I had to find a way to reset myself back to the— into the moment. So recognizing it's important, and then essentially it's like focusing back. So that, that whole looking at your feet, uh, you know, slapping your leg, or some guys and out spray water on their face. I think it was Brad Thorn. And, uh, you know, for me, I had self-talk that I used in that area there. So just essentially using my name, so Kieran, in my own head, I'm telling myself, here, next task. And as simple as that. So, um, so that talk helped me, um, you know, just bring myself back to this, this next moment. So after you've connected back to, to here, then just focus on the next thing.

So, so simple. And I guess the thing I would say, it's common sense, but it's not common practice.

No, and it's actually hard. It's a hard thing to get good at. So Yeah, we did a lot of practice on that through trainings and in games. And, you know, I'd say it's, you know, from early in my career where maybe a mistake or something, or, or the games getting away from us would derail me for a good chunk of time, to when I finished, like, I could like that, like, 2 seconds, like, yeah, that's amazing, get myself back into a great state or, or mindset.

A learned skill, right?

It's a learned skill. And so you've got to practice, and it doesn't just happen. So that's the hardest thing, right? Like, just think you can just make this decision, I'm going to be better at it, and then the next week you've got it. But it's years, and you actually have to find time to practice it, reflect on it, and potentially the reflection. So when you reflect on whatever it is, the meeting or whatever situation you're in, don't just look about execution, look about that kind of deeper, that why. Look at your mindset around pressure? You know, was there times that put you into a red head or whatever it was?

Yeah, the red to blues, that was Kerry Evans and Renzi Hannam that kind of— yes, but that— it's an amazing— we had Renzi on the show, I'll put a link in the show notes. So just talking about red to blue, yes, and what it means. And it's again, simple concept but very, very tricky to master.

Yeah, it is. And, and it is— it was the difference between us as All Blacks from going from a team that couldn't quite nail those pressure moments, I guess, in some ways, um, it had a huge impact on our team, eh, um, to go to 2011 and win that under the probably the most pressure and all the team's been in, uh, and then continue to progress and, and push us to, uh, yeah, new heights, you know, as a team. And, you know, I think every team now recognizes the importance of, of mental, um, skills and the ability to keep yourself in the moment. And as I said, it's, you know, there's a difference between the great and the, and the, and the good.

I agree. It's something I think about often with clients in the corporate or business sphere is that the mindset— they often go, James, we're not athletes. I'm like, yeah, but you're dealing with pressure. And so you talked about state, like getting yourself back into that state really quickly. So I think of 3 things: physiology, so what your body's doing, your breathing's doing, your posture, your face, if it's smiling or not. Focus, which is where's my brain focusing on, what are my thoughts doing? And then language, like what am I saying? Yeah, is it positive, negative? No, am I swearing at myself? Am I big upping myself? And you've just nailed all three of those, like you mastered those.

Yeah, like that's spot on, I think. And even if you're talking about leadership-wise, how you project as a leader, yeah, what gets put onto your team. Yeah, and so suddenly you're saying things that you'd never said before during the week, and in the game you're having a crack at the team, or you're behaving in a way that's so foreign to the team, they're looking at you going, all right, this guy's lost it. And she's suddenly— they're going to start feeling, feeling that pressure. So, uh, building common language across it, across time, that connects, uh, the team to obviously strategy, but also connects to who you are is really important.

Can I ask some— for someone that's listening right now, say from a leadership point of view, they're going, oh, I want to develop some common language.

Yeah.

If you think back to the All Blacks, what were a couple of the wee words or common language pieces that came up for you guys?

Um, like, I, I— for me, it's just going, okay, what is it that we're focusing on? Yep. What you focus on, you generally get. Yep. Um, in terms of your performance, uh, so you know, discipline something, you know, within that, within a game of making sure that, you know, you don't miss the, the clean out, or, you know, if you've got to be here, you've got to be here. So discipline to be nailing that and also not giving away penalties on a field. So that's, that's one. But more like around probably going, okay, where's our mindset at? And Yeah, what's going to be the difference this week? And every week was different. So I don't think you need to have these other things that we need to do. We had a pretty clear identity of who we were as All Blacks, um, you know, around, you know, making sure that we're inspiring, we're, you know, really fierce, courageous people, um, driven and things like that. So those words we wanted to come bring to life, I guess. And so as a leader, they were part of your, your language, um, constantly, you know. So maybe one week you wanted, you know, you needed more of one thing than the other, so you'd maybe focus on that. And so if I was talking to a leader and saying, okay, how can you, you know, maybe bring your team in and inspire them more, um, find always within even a short conversation, you can always connect them back to the purpose of what you're trying to— you are, and also connect them to where you're trying to head. So never be afraid to constantly use, you know, we've— we have come from and where you want to go within a context of any conversation. It's beautiful because that brings, you know, pure connection to to the team and what they are actually trying to nail.

Yeah, you guys did it so well. And now, if I think back 4 or 5 years, I don't know how many years, but you and I started chatting about what's next. I mean, you've done everything there is to do, arguably, in the rugby world in terms of captaincy and winning and World Cups, and the list goes on. It's amazing. And then I said, well, that has to come to an end at some point. People stop playing sport at some stage. And then you look to what's next. And we were talking a number of years ago what you were going to do, and you'd started working with leaders, and you've been doing that now all over the world. You just got back from Sri Lanka, you're working up there, really cool. Uh, so recently I wanted to chat about your course. You've got a course on leadership, so tell us a little bit more about it, and I'll make sure we put a link in the show notes as well.

Yeah, cool, mate. It's, uh, it's, um, yeah, it's been an awesome journey to kind of get to. Like, uh, after I finished rugby, it was like, yeah, it's a, it's a big change. Um, but I love leadership in terms of I love helping people, and like, you could see that on the rugby teams that you're involved with, the young guys getting improvements and you have a massive impact there. So, uh, yeah, I was looking for something that kept me in that kind of realm. Um, I didn't necessarily want to stay in rugby. I wanted, you know, I was looking for something to, you know, really challenge me, I guess, in some ways. Um, so yeah, built my leadership business. I've spent time going around businesses, organizations in New Zealand, a little bit overseas, uh and learned a lot. And I've learned a lot about leadership. I've done a lot more research and learning myself. Um, you know, obviously had conversations with you over that period as well and learned, you know, from what you're doing. I'm like, okay, there's something that I can give here, and I feel like I can genuinely help lots of people around the world because you help leaders suddenly help a lot more people underneath them. Um, And so yeah, I've packaged up this, um, this course. It's in collaboration with Red Seed. It's a company like an e-learning company here in Christchurch. And you know, we've been able to, you know, put it together, a pretty cool course I'm really proud of. And so what it is essentially is it's leadership coaching for, um, for anyone who wants to just really improve their lifestyle as a leader. Amazing. And it's You know, it's, it's simple what we've talked about today. Simple things done consistently over a long period of time allow you to be, be that better person. And so, you know, anyone could probably pick it up. It's aimed at the, at high-level leaders, um, but it'll help you as a parent. I think as a leader, you're a leader wherever you are. Yes, in, in your, in your realm, you know, as, as a partner or as a at work or of kids, you know. So it'll help you there. It's, it's split into kind of— I've created it into 3 kind of areas, which is, you know, your leadership blueprint. So looking at yourself as, you know, as a leader, which kind of delves into who you are and where you can, can progress. Teamwork and culture. And for me, it gives me a chance to tell a story, pull proven frameworks and things from around the world and from my own learnings across my time in rugby and putting them into some reading. And then the key is the reflection and the activities that, that people do. So for this kind of— for each Leadership, Culture, and Teamwork. There's 3 mini courses within each of those, and, um, and they come with, you know, workbooks. And, and, uh, so that's the key. It's something that you, you do, you reflect on, and you build through it for a, through time period.

So can you lead yourself through it at your own pace?

It's a self-paced online course, so, uh, so it's, it's available online. Um, so yeah, go and have a look at it and the team will be in contact with you. That's incredible. Um, and it essentially, you know, content's available over 12 months and you can do it over a slow period of time, which I believe is important, um, to reinforce those, um, those key things that you can get better at. And, you know, you can do it with a cohort, you know, of a group of people in your organization. Um, most definitely open to coming along and, and, and seeing you as well. So Uh, yeah, it's, it's something I feel that I'm really stoked with it, how it's come together. And, you know, really it's making sure that I can help people.

Um, that's it. It's fulfilling your mission, right? It's your purpose of what you want to do in life, and that is to help others.

Yeah. And, yeah, I've realized I'm, I'm only one person, and it's, you know, like, you know, it's— you can only be so many places. And I've got, you know, some other important things in my life as well, but it's so cool to be able to spread this word and share a bit of my learnings, you know, out of that time that I spent in a pretty crazy high-pressure environment. And you do pick up a lot of great things from it.

100%. I'm so excited that it's out there. I'm so proud as well because you've talked about it and you've been committed to it and you've constructed it beautifully. So it's bloody awesome to see that it's out there.

Well done. Thank you so much, mate.

No, pleasure, mate. I'll put it in the show notes right now so people, if they're listening or watching, get straight in there, check it out. And I'll make sure and put all of your socials, your site, everything in there too. But before we wrap up, one last question. So if we were to hypothetically fast forward many years into the future and you were highly aware that it was your last day on Earth and someone very young, maybe say your great-grandchild or something like that, comes along and says, Kieran, how do I lead my life on purpose? What might you say to them?

Ah, it's a, yeah, it's an interesting question. I like using this actually, um, yeah, with people that I, clients that I talk with. Um, look, leading your life on purpose is essentially making sure that you, um, really love what you do. Um, yeah, you've got to be totally connected to what, what it is that you're doing. So Um, yeah, I think that's number one, you know, figure out who you are and be passionate, love what you do and go after it. I think it's probably as simple as that. Um, and I think hopefully I've been doing that so far, and, you know, in the future, um, you know, I want to make sure I keep doing that. And show that example. I think if you can show that example to people, it's just as powerful.

That's awesome. Thank you for sharing that. And for the person that's listening right now going, oh, I want more, or I've got a team, I can tell you hand on heart that if you bring Kieran in to speak to your team, he's awesome. I've had him at my High Performance Leadership event before.

The crowd loved him.

There was a crowd of leaders. And also later in the year down in Queenstown, we're doing an exclusive retreat along with former Prime Minister, and I know Kieran will nail it. Everyone's going to love it. So folks, don't hesitate to reach out, go check out the course. And Kieran, thank you so much for being here.

No worries, thanks, James. It's been good to get here. It's been a nice journey learning this side of business and things alongside you, mate, and you're killing it too. So thanks for having me.

Our pleasure, mate. Awesome.