Leadership Lessons from the CEO of UNICEF NZ

Michelle, a massive welcome to the Life On Purpose podcast.

Great, lovely. Lovely to meet you, James. Look forward to having a coffee in person one day.

It's going to happen. It definitely has to happen. I'm so glad to connect with you and what you're doing is so inspiring. And it's funny when I started to kind of research about who you were and figured out you're connected with a few other people that I know and respect. So Simon Challis, who we've just chatted about off air before this, you've known and you've worked with Simon Spitzer. Such a small world here in New Zealand, eh?

It really, really is. It's kind of, it's, you know, the rest of the world does have a degree of separation, I think it's not even a whole person here in New Zealand and Christchurch in particular.

Yeah, I 100% agree. What I'd love to do is kind of look at your story. So how did you end up here in New Zealand and, you know, how did you transition from the corporate world and then end up as CEO of unicef, which is an organization that I admire and I support.

Yeah. And I have to say thank you, James. It makes me so happy to have heard offline beforehand that your 5 year old gets super, super excited with their Paddington postcards every. Every month. So that's just.

Yeah.

To make one kid happy is amazing, to make many and to know that your son, in doing so, supporting such an important, you know, humanitarian aid that we provide. So I'm super happy to have heard that.

Hey, love it.

Yeah. So how did I end up in New Zealand? Well, I started by marrying a Kiwi. That was quite a useful way to end up here. So. So I met my husband, Jason Sharp in the UK when we were both at Vodafone. And both of us, I would say, probably both very entrepreneurial. And we chose to leave Vodafone at exactly the same time, both to pursue startup worlds. Two different startups. His was the high risk, high return version and mine was the low risk, low return version. And anyway, you know what, it's. If you've worked in a startup, it's incredibly hard work. You're putting everything into it, paying yourself very little. And then I accidentally fell pregnant twice through that period, then worked out how the whole thing works. And anyway, so stopped the two children. But I had this crazy time. I had this organization that I was a founding director of that was growing so fast. A mixture of reasons organically, but also through acquisition. It was during the global GFC and we had money where others were running out of money. So we took that opportunity to buy six businesses in my time. So all of a sudden I had two very, very young children and I was running a national organization that was across, you know, every touched every part of the uk. So very, very challenging. And on top of that.

I have had a very, I've had a very certain leadership style my whole life. And I had thought naively that going into an organization that was my own, that I'd be able to apply it in a way that it was going to be accepted and it wasn't. So I had all of those dynamics going on as well. So, you know, a young mother of two young children working every hour, earning less than I'd ever earned and having my values challenged. So one morning I just actually what actually happened, if I'm being totally honest, is I had this out of body experience where I landed on the floor and this whale sound came out of me and my husband just stood there looking at me going, we're going to talk about that tonight. Something's just happened. And what that resulted in his realizing that I was prepared, probably putting so much pressure on myself whilst also having my leadership values compromised. And I said to my husband, I can't just walk away from Tamiko. It's, you know, I've poured five years of myself into this. I can't just kind of leave the job and sort of watch it, you know. And he said, what happens if we move far away? I was like, okay, that might be a bit easier. So we ended up in New Zealand. So that's the story of how I ended up here.

That's amazing. And stepping away from that life, that life of entrepreneur, startup, corporate, that must have been incredibly challenging to take that step.

Yeah, I mean at the time, I guess focusing on the fact that I was lifting and shifting, you know, I've been in the UK by then, well since the age of 15. So I was shifting a whole lifetime with children and house and you know, an entire lifetime I really focused on that. And rather than focusing on the fact that I'm leaving this behind and I'm going to the other side of the world where I don't know anybody, I really focused on the actual move and what it was going to do for the children.

Looking back, I think I was incredibly. Well, we were incredibly brave because although my husband was a Kiwi, he hadn't lived in New Zealand since he was, I think about 18 because he was a professional rugby player that ended up In Scotland. So. Yeah. But the best thing ever, we told ourselves we're doing it for two years and I think that made it easier on our mindset and on our family in the UK as well. But that was 12 years ago. So.

Yeah, that's incredible. Such courage. And it's so interesting because I hear that what you did there was you focused on positive psychology. Okay. I'm not leaving all this stuff behind. I'm actually focusing on what I'm going to and the positive outcome for my family and my children. That's powerful.

Yeah. And I think that probably talks a lot to who I am as a person. I often in my life, I have moments where I look back at something going, wow, was a naive, Was I brave? What was I at that point? But it's because at the time I was just really focusing on the positive and the forward looking rather than. Than dwelling on what may not be. So yeah, that's a few episodes of those.

Do you find that you like default to that in your leadership style? So when you're leading a team or individuals, do you find that you are always defaulting like, hey, here's the vision, here's what we're working towards rather than getting stuck in the mud?

Very much so. If I look at, I don't know if you've done Gallup strength finders, but in my top five strengths, strategic thinking, which is all about painting the picture of the future and positivity as well. So with those, the mixture of those two, I think give me a real distinctive leadership style which means that I'm always painting. And then self assurance is a third one which means that people believe in the, believe in me because they believe that I believe in the vision. That makes sense. So it's. Yeah, so that's very much how I lead people is really talking about the vision, but then bringing it back down to what are the, what are the non scary steps that we have to take in order to get there? Because not everybody can look so far away and be comfortable that they'll get there. So then adapting that for different people to bring it back to those stepping stones that make it feel really easy and natural to get there.

That sounds brilliant. And in terms of leadership, because I've talked to leaders of all different backgrounds, different countries and the one thing that kept coming up was they said, James, at some point in our career and even sometimes still today we have this like, am I enough? And like that imposter syndrome or that doubt. So was there ever a point where you're like whoa, this is a big deal, like I might be out of my depth, do I know what I'm doing? Have you ever felt that way in any of your leadership positions?

In every single one. And anyone who tells you that I think anyone who tells you that they don't probably doesn't have a lot of self awareness or something, I don't know, there's always going to be a time but in every, even like literally one of the, when I look back one of the bravest things I ever did is going from being the managing director, the leader of Tamiko in the uk, a multinational, very fast growing one, the Microsoft Tech Track fastest growing tech company award quite a few years in a row to applying for 20 hours a week as a business development manager in a small charity in Christchurch. Right. Even at that point where I kind of felt that everything I had done historically probably led to being a really good position and skill set, I still nervous because I've never worked in the not for profit sector. So every time there's always a point where you think and you question going goodness, am I good enough to have the skill set? But then I think what I've just said earlier about the fact that I always look at the positive and the forward, that's what gets me through it.

That's brilliant. I was literally just about to ask, so if you have this self doubt, how do you get to the other side of that self belief? And so for you it's like actually I look to the other side, I look to the future and that's what compels me to move forward.

Yeah, I think it's that and it's also the fact that probably in the last, I'd say the last decade, probably since I've lived in New Zealand, I've also been very open with my team around when there is self doubt and knowing what I'm good at and knowing what I'm not so good at and therefore not trying to mask that I'm everything. And I think that really empowers other people to step into that space that I'm not so comfortable in as well. So for me if you said to me Michelle, go and stand on a stage and talk to 2,000 people or you can choose to go and write a 10 page document, I'd always choose the stage rather than document because I'm highly dyslexic and that just kind of terrifies me. So rather than pretending I'm that or rather than having a permanent ghostwriter, I make a joke around the office Saying, who wants to be my ghostwriter for this bit of work? So I think it's about actually showing those vulnerabilities. And that creates a culture where others are able, Empowered to do the same, but also empowered to step into that space. And I think that there's something quite powerful about that.

Oh, incredibly powerful. And because I've interviewed lots of male and female leaders, I would say that female leaders lead the way in showing how you can lead with vulnerability. And Brene Brown is one of the classics, right. Leading reading. It's called Dare to Lead by Brene Brown. It's a great book around vulnerability. And I wish that more of us male leaders would look to the female leaders and go, wow, that is amazing. We need more of that. Because to me, that's one of the greatest strengths as a leader, saying, hey, I'm not perfect. I'm not really sure what to do. Do any of you guys know what to do? That's massive courage.

Exactly. I remember my husband, who's also CEO, he used to ring me at the most unfortunate times during the day, going, michelle, how do I do this in Excel? Or what does this mean from a financial perspective? Because I'm kind of very much on the finance side of the. Of the ledger. And I said to him one day, why. Why don't you ask your team, why do you always call me when I'm in the middle of a meeting and I can't really help? He says, oh, because then they'll know that I don't understand it. I'm like, mate, you need to go and be open with this. And he's actually taken that on board and it kind of, you know, he's now leading in a way, which he's saying, this is the right thing to do. You know, actually by not trying to pretend that I'm perfect and I know everything, it makes me more real and therefore more believable. And therefore people buy into me more because I'm being genuine. So that's the other thing is you're being yourself.

You know, that's brilliant. And would you say, like, throughout your career, have you found that there has been challenges being a female leader that male leaders maybe would not have had to go through or be faced with? There's been things and you're like, oh, that's. That's me. I've had to work harder. I've had to prove myself more.

I've very genuinely never felt a glass ceiling, which is something that people often ask me about. And I think that's because I'm a product of my father who made me. I kind of never really had a sense that I was a female versus a male throughout my childhood. Like, he always thought that I could achieve anything in the world. And he kind of, you know, almost gave me permission to know that I could achieve anything in the world. So at the time, I never felt a glass ceiling. When I look back now, I do think of times going, oh, that was actually very much harder for me than it was for my male colleagues. And in particular because my early career, I spent exactly half my career now in the high tech IT space and exactly half in the NGO space. And I'd say my early career was all in the tech IT space, which was very male dominated back in the day. And there were times where, like, there's no doubt I had to work differently and harder than my male colleagues to achieve the same. I didn't feel it at the time because I was probably doing that positive looking forward thing, but when I look back now, I reflect and go, yeah, that was definitely challenging at the time. I think the other thing that, whether this is a male or female thing or not is, you know, females tend to have a much higher emotional intelligence. Therefore I notice the subtleties of when things aren't working in a team way more than my male colleagues and I therefore wear that burden more. So I'm the one that's panicking about the person who genuinely looked that something's going on over there. My male colleagues won't even notice. Or I understand the tone that's happened between two people way more than some of the male colleagues. And I think that in itself in leadership can be because you then in a male environment, if you're one of the only people noticing that you have to take on that responsibility to be the one to deal to those things, which is, you know, quite a lot.

So absolutely. And for male leaders out there that are listening going, whoa, you're right, I really do need to level up my EQ and really look at my emotional intelligence. Is there a way that you could say, hey guys, you might want to go and read this book, or you might want to think about this, or here's a skill that you might want to improve.

I would. It's the subtleties that's a hard thing. I don't know if you can teach that and I can't think of a book that you could go to. But maybe just being more aware and just making a point and deliberate point of being aware of interactions and the subtleties, the body Movements, the. I don't know, it's just. It's hard and I don't know. I don't think you can teach eq, can you? I'm not sure.

I don't think. I think it's a skill. It's. I think it's very innate to the individuals that have a high level of it, for sure. And there's probably ways to improve it through listening, but there are certain things where people just don't get the cues. You're right.

Yeah, that's right. And so I do feel that throughout my career I've had to play a really large role in being the one that gets the subtleties and therefore owns them and therefore has to deal with them, which can be quite a burden, if you see what I mean.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And that's not a male, female thing, clearly, but I think it tends to be typically that females tend to have a higher eq. But. Yeah, so boys be more aware.

Definitely. So that burden. So when you carry that burden, how do you manage that? So you're running a company, you're running your own life and you've also got a family, so how do you manage that burden so that you can still thrive in those other areas?

I think I tend to use the tool of compartmentalization a lot in order to deal with things. So when I'm at work, I'm very present at work and I'm not stressing about what I'm not doing at home and vice versa. So I think it's just about being really organized and really deliberate about when you're in the moment, you're in the moment, or whatever you're in the moment in. So when I leave the office at 5, knowing I've got a ton of emails to do, but I'm going to dedicate my five to eight o' clock to the children. I do that and then when they're settled, I then go back into work mode. So I think it's kind of. But you have to be adaptable with that as well. Clearly I'm not talking about it being an exact precise recipe or formula, but. Yeah, and not allowing yourself to get overwhelmed with the enormity of everything.

That really is powerful. I spoke with Christopher Luxon a few years ago and he said exactly the same thing. He has older kids now who are in their 20s, but when he had kids young, he said same thing. You get up early, do a little bit the email stuff and then you come home, spend the evening and dinner, and then once they kind of Head to bed. It's like, okay, I'll do a little bit more. So being very compartmental with, with organizing skills.

Yeah, exactly. And that's very much how I've led since having children. My entire work life balance. And I think now that I'm older as well, I think it's also being super comfortable in my own skin to say, I know I'm the CEO, whatever, but I'm still leaving at five because I've got children and I'm not. So I'm not going to be the first in the office, I'm not going to be the last out of the office. And that breeds a really good culture where people can then feel that they can be who they are. So I think that's the other thing. When I was younger, it was much harder for me to do that because I somehow felt that the measure of my success was around investment. But what I, what people would see rather than now. I know that, you know, I'm much more confident in my own capability and ability and the fact that nobody's going to think I'm just because I'm arriving at 9 and leaving at 5, but that's actually my full day.

I think that's amazing, particularly for other leaders or aspiring leaders to hear that because often people want to wear a badge of honor. I do 150 hour weeks and I get up at 3am, I go to bed at 11pm and so it's great for people to hear that to run a company you do not need to do that. And in fact there's a lot of costs involved in running.

Yeah, yeah. So if you go back to my time in the uk, that's probably why I ended up at the bottom of the stairs with that ridiculous sound coming out of me for that exact reason.

No, not at all. No, I absolutely agree. And going back to that moment, because that's like a rock bottom moment. Right? That's. Something is awful. I need to make a change. So what was the conversation like that night that you did have with your husband? Like, how did you guys like figure out, okay, this is really not healthy. This is not right.

Yeah, well, I guess because, you know, Jason had also been so busy focusing on his own startup and actually his high risk, high return was being very, very impacted by the, you know, the global financial state. So he was so focused on his world and I don't think he'd appreciated how much of the family life I'd taken on as well as the fact that I had my own business. I was trying to run. So in asking those questions, I think we both realized when I kind of started talking about it out loud, is that it was virtually impossible in that environment that I was in to get that what the work life balance that I needed.

And the fact that it was me putting the pressure on myself. But because of my character, unless I removed myself from that situation, nothing was going to change. Because I know what I'm like and I know I'm a perfectionist and I'm a finisher. And so I knew that in that environment, that mixture of this startup world that was growing very fast and two very young children, I was going to keep doing that. I was going to keep having a go at myself or being. Being bad at both. And that's when we decided actually something significant has to change that. And the fact, as I said that I felt that, you know, I'd spent my whole life working for other people where my values as a leader were being challenged because they were expected to be X, but they were really wide. And I thought that this was an opportunity for me to really be able to shine in terms of what I thought leadership should be. And I wasn't able to do that. So the combination of both those things meant that we thought, actually, we need a big change. Let's do something totally dramatic.

Well done. Very dramatic indeed.

Yes.

Talking about leadership, so what, what do you view leadership as? What does leadership mean?

Yeah. So to me, leadership is very, very different to management. Clearly, I think we all know that. So leadership is about creating the space in the environment to allow others to absolutely succeed by painting a vision, understanding as an organization what your reason for existence is, what is your purpose, and by explaining to the team, this is our mission, this is how we're going to do what we're going to do in the context of why we exist, to what the vision is. And then constantly communication is the biggest thing. So for me, leadership is. Yeah, it's about painting the picture and making sure the pathway is there, but allowing your team through trust, empowerment, total understanding as to what role they play in your mission, to be able to be the best that they can be of who they are.

That's beautiful. I love it. And in terms of empowering other leaders within your team. So do you have any processes, frameworks or programs to help them flourish as leaders?

I think that varies depending on the context of the organization. So look, let's take unicef. I've been here for nine months now. We're a brand new executive team. So we're going to have to do a huge amount of stuff, whatever that looks like, in order for us to really become a high performing leadership team where we are like team A. And I think it really depends on the context. So for a mixture of actually just time, clearly there are tons of tools you can do. So yes, definitely in the context of my time now at unicef we're just working through what that looks like because we're literally just newly forming right now. And some of them will be really simple things like making sure we've all done, whether it's strength finder, whatever it is, and understanding the fact that we're all different and how we interrelate with each other through to just having a good old two days together and having a bit of fun and getting to know who we are as people through to some more formal things. We've got an external organization right now that's helping us through really what does our vision mean? What's our purpose mean? How does that translate into our mission and what's that look like? How do we tell what's our narrative? You know, so yeah, I love it.

And at unicef, what makes it, what makes it so amazing to work there? What do you love about unicef?

Everything. I feel so, so lucky. I feel like everything that I had done for my whole career, you know, half in the private sector, tech sector, half in the NGO sector primarily is CEO of Kalmanik Enterprises, Beautiful Kalmanik Enterprise in Christchurch. And then I've just had a stint of a year and a half back at Vodafone in New Zealand. I feel that everything that I have done has culminated to this point in my career now. I'm so excited, James, so excited. You know, UNICEF, a 75 year old organization that is the United Nations Armed for children and Children's rights.

To be the largest vaccinator immunizer of children in the world. We vaccinate already half the children in the world, almost half the children in the world, you know, single handedly with partners to have eradicated polio. Just about, you know, it's really amazing stuff. Plus all the thematic work that we do being present in 192 countries so we can respond to emergencies. And clearly the latest thing which just. I did not know this when I joined unicef, we're now part of the Covax alliance which basically is immunising 92 countries. So where we've gone from immunizing children, we're now responsible for immunizing low and middle income countries around the world. That is just that, you know, we're in this crazy, crazy situation, you know, many years time when somebody's listening to this podcast and they'll go, that was when the pandemic was rife around the world. To be able to play such an active role in being part of the solution, that's just so empowering, you know, so empowering. So what a privilege.

That's exciting.

It's a real privilege. And what I get really excited about is, you know, UNICEF Aotearoa, New Zealand is a small part of unicef, clearly, globally. We're never going to be the biggest fundraising arm of UNICEF globally. But what I do think we can do, because New Zealand is known for this, is I think we can be the most innovative part of business. So how can we use technology to really drive transparency so that you, with your Paddington postcards, you can go on an app one day and see this is exactly where the money's going to. This is the impact I have had through buying postcards for my child, you know, or whatever that is. How can we use blockchain to make sure that the vaccination that is leaving here is actually getting to the right person without anything going astray in the middle?

I love that thought of getting the iPad out with Finn at 5 years old and seeing where Paddington, that card that comes from Paddington, that he's supporting an organization for him to see, oh, that's what difference it's making, like on an iPad and seeing it live, maybe some video content. But to me, that stuff is awesome. That's next level brilliant.

Exactly. So, I mean, I feel very, very fortunate. I feel like I'm a custodian at the moment of something amazing. I will give it an absolute big push for the next number of years and watch this space. I really look forward. I think we could be a lot more relevant in New Zealand than we are today. I grew up in Mexico and UNICEF was everywhere because UNICEF is invited in by government. So it's a very trusted brand. In fact, I've heard that it's the most trusted brand globally if you take everything into consideration. So I think we have a huge opportunity here in Aotearoa to really, really tell a story. But we need to get a narrative right. And we have an opportunity with this Covax piece, you know, as the. We are turning a vaccine into vaccinations. That's our role. Two billion plus by January. Vaccines.

Wow. Incredible.

I know.

And in terms of UNICEF in New Zealand, what's the greatest challenge for you guys to become more relevant here?

I think it's a Couple of things, I think, because certainly historically, everything that we have done is international aid, humanitarian aid. A lot of New Zealanders quite rightly, are going, hang on a minute, but surely charity starts at home. And I think what we could be doing a better job of is actually articulating the massive power that we have. Rather than being a service provider in New Zealand, we want to be the trusted arm of government to be able to help them make really good decisions around policies. That's the voice that we can have. Because we are unicef, we are United nations, we can have a much bigger impact in New Zealand through our advocacy and through our narrative than turning up and providing sandwiches somewhere, for example. So it's really telling the story of the massive impact, positive impact we can have here locally.

That's powerful. And in terms of crisis. So when you're leading, say, unicef and you hit a crisis, which I guess arguably we're in one of the greatest crisis of all times right now with COVID How do you respond as a leader in times of crisis?

I think that's probably where I come into my own. That's probably me at my best. I'm a very. And this is where it's a crisis with business. Whether there's, you know, some emergency or accident, you know, in any. In any environment, I think I get this absolute clarity of thinking, and I know exactly what questions to ask in order to make really quick decisions. So I'd say I'm calm, and again, I have a way of bringing the right people in and asking them the questions. I'm not the expert, but I know exactly what to ask to pull the pieces together, to make really quick decisions.

On what needs to happen, what a skill set. Knowing the right questions to ask can lead to such better outcomes. When you ask the wrong question or a slightly skewed question, you're going to be in a way different direction. So that, to me, that is a superpower. So good on you for having that.

Yeah, I think I discovered that early on in, like, you know, a car crash when something's happened and people are panicking. And somehow I felt that I could be the calm voice of asking the right questions to make the right decisions. And it's exactly the same thing you can apply to business in an emergency or crisis.

And do you have any habits, anything that you think helps make you that calm, consistent leader, whether it's exercise or personal development, or is there anything you do that you're like, yeah, that really helps me stay steady?

I don't know. I mean, I Do, do a lot of exercise. I'm a very deliberate person, is probably what I call myself. Nothing in my life has been a total surprise, if that makes sense. You know, I've always set myself goals. I've always been very deliberate about, you know, personal development and learning. And in my young career, I was super deliberate about exposure into this type of business and then that part of business and that part of business. So I think the mixture of being a very deliberate person mixed with that mental well being, which is exercise and mindfulness and healthy eating, I guess probably all plays a part. Or maybe, I don't know, maybe I was just born with this quirky way of my brain working. I don't know.

Thank you. Lucky stars. I love it. Yeah, that's amazing. Well, I just want to say a huge thank you and I've actually got one last question I always like to ask guests at the end. And you know, for you, what does living a life of purpose actually mean?

It means that my core, core, core values show up every day, even at the inconvenient times. So I know I was put on this earth. I now know more than ever to use a tool of business for good and being able to bring my core values of kindness and care and compassion and inclusivity through my leadership, through the work I do. That is what a true life purpose is. And in every aspect of my life, not just business, but in mentoring, in going to the supermarket and being kind to the person in front is in every aspect of my life.

That's so powerful. You take your values and they're not your corporate values, they're not your home values, they're your life values and they go into every area of your life.

That's powerful. Well, Michelle, thank you so, so much. I'm looking forward to more people jumping on the UNICEF website and supporting your mission. And if anybody's got par. Got kids, or a parent who've got kids, please sign up for the Paddington. The Paddington postcards. They're quite amazing.

Yeah. Thank you.

Yes. Global. Yeah. So that's the thing. Little New Zealand here may not be the biggest fundraiser, but when it all adds up to what we do globally, it is off the charts amazing. Like, off the charts amazing.

So if anybody's here listening from North America or Europe or anywhere, you can join that campaign and support it.

So please do, please do.

Michelle, so great to connect with you and I look forward to seeing you in person very soon.

Yeah, thanks. James, lovely to meet you.

Thanks a million. Hey, guys. If you enjoyed the content today, please smash that subscribe button below. And if you want to become part of my community, I've got an amazing free Facebook group. Please come and join us. The link is in the description below. And also if you've got any questions questions about today's session, I'd love to know. Just comment below and I'll be sure to get back to you guys. Have the most amazing day.