Mick Hunt How to Lead Through Change, Chaos & Conflict

Today you're going to get to hear from Mick Hunt. He's incredible when it comes to grit and is world renowned when it comes to self reinvention. This is going to be one hell of an episode. Enjoy the show. The Lead on Purpose podcast is sponsored by NZ Mortgages. Learn more at nzmortgages.co.nz Nick, a huge welcome to the Lead on Purpose podcast.

James man, honored to be here, brother. Huge fan of you and what you do and, and more importantly, the insights that you provide to people. I think it's, we're in a world today where, you know, just that human interaction, the real human touch and human care is critically important. So kudos to you for doing that for the community.

Well, thank you. No, I'm really excited to explore your mind and your beliefs. You're making huge waves, particularly in North America, and influencing tens of thousands of people with your thought leadership. And I think it's the time is now that we need to be talking about your area of expertise. And you know, we've all had this experience, many of us with Simon Sinek's why start with why. And it's been transformational. However, you've taken it to the next level and you say, well, actually there's one level deeper. And what is that? What's the thing that we need to go that's beyond our why?

Yeah, James, it's your because, right? It's the reason that really makes you do what you do. Whether you're a leader, entrepreneur and just in your everyday life, in your household, there's gotta be that drive, that thing that's deeper than your why, that really tells yourself and others who you are and the beliefs and standpoints that you have. And so for me, that's the premise of everything that I have done in my life and my career and as a leader and as a, as a consultant, as an advisor to leaders, it's always being centered around your because, right, James, I, I follow you. I, I know a lot about you and I could probably guess your why, right? But your because is really internal to you and it's that thing that makes you do what you do, right? When you talk about your wife, your kids, they're probably your why, but why, right? And so for me, at an early age, that became a fundamental thing for me. And that's literally every day I make sure that I go back to that because and that did I fulfill that mission today. And we're human. Every day is not a yes, right? But, but I made sure that I put the effort to make sure that I can say yes when I can.

That's beautiful. And I know that the listeners going, hey, I want to know what my because is. So why, but why? I like that approach. So what's your because?

Yeah, so my because goes back to the ten year old me. And it was a promise that I made to my mother to, to change not only her life, but the life of my sister. And then later when he was born, my brother. I, I grew up in a household. James. I tell people all the time, you can live in a two parent household but still be raised like a single parent. And that's what it was like for me. You know, I. 126 Valentine street for most people it looked like one of the nicest houses on the street, but for me it was like prison. Every day was cold, it was always dark on the inside. And my mother went through emotional, physical, financial abuse almost on the daily to where it could have, if I allowed it, it could have felt normal. Right? But I knew that it shouldn't be normal. And so at 10 years old, I made my mom a promise. And so my because is fulfilling that promise that I made to my mom back then. And you know, as you get older, as your circumstances change, your because should also change. And so now it's the promise that I made to my kids to be the father that they can look up to, a father that they can be proud of. And so those are the two things that, that really drive who I am. And so I would tell all the listeners and the viewers, right, like your because is your commitment, what are you committing to that you're going to hold yourself accountable to for the rest of your life? And that's what your because is super powerful.

Mick. Thank you. And if we go back to childhood, I firmly believe up to the age of 8 to 10, a lot of the things we see, hear, feel and experience can really shape our beliefs of the world. So what was it that you were experiencing? What are some of the most emotional triggering memories and how has that shaped how you engage with the world?

Yeah. So, you know, at 10, the, the day that I go back to all the time is it's Christmas Eve, right. And it's a Saturday morning. And while most kids are out having fun and getting ready for the next day, I'm sitting on the bed with tears rolling down my face. James. Except those tears aren't mine. They're my mom's tears. And she had pretty much had enough. And I didn't know if my mom was Giving up. And those tears were tears of desperation and frustration. And that's when I looked at her and said, no matter what, no matter how, I'm going to make it happen so that you don't have to walk on eggshells so that that beautiful smile that I know you have, the rest of the world can see as well too. And so that's the moment for me. It was a Saturday morning, it was Christmas Eve, it was cold. It was. And then inside it was really cold. And my mom was at the verge of giving up. And I couldn't allow that to happen. And not being naive, at 10 years old, there wasn't much I could do, right. But that moment shaped who I became. And so when we talk about how did that change my outlook or how did that change the things that I did, I became a man at 10. I made grown man decisions. So I started shaping the friends that I had around the purpose and drive that they had. You know, I, the most kids would go, you know, want to go hang out or spend the night over at their friends homes. Like I was taking care of my mom, I was making sure that my mom was protected. And so then as a leader, those are the things that I realized was it's never about you. It's about the, the ideals and the people that you care about the most, the principles that you have that you guard that should shape all the decisions that you make. And so for me, at the age of 10, I learned how to make, really, I don't want to say the tough decisions, but I learned how to make the right decisions at 10. You're not always going to make them, but I understood what right and Wrong was at 10 from a decision making standpoint.

Incredible. And do you ever feel like you missed out a little bit on being a kid because you, because you had to grow up so quickly?

Yeah. You know, it's crazy to think this way, but I tell people all the time and if you ever hear me keynote speak one of my keynotes, I tell people that day, Christmas Eve, 1988, a 10 year old boy died and from the ashes rose a man. So I don't necessarily look back and say, I wish I could have had a different childhood or I didn't experience being a kid, I didn't have a choice because change was something that I must have at that time. And so, you know, one of the things that I want everybody that's listening or watching to write down, no matter what it is, something has to be a must have right, you know, As a leader, we don't have to do list. We don't have task lists. We should have must have list. And so I would tell every leader that's listening, every entrepreneur that's listening, or every leader in a household that's listening, start creating must haves, and your life and your outlook will be different. So, James, no, I. I don't regret not having a childhood as a kid or going through kid things, because in order for me to get out of what I had to do, that change is something that I must have had at that time.

Mm. Thanks for sharing that, Mick. And you use the word change a few times. I want us to explore that. What do you believe about change?

Change is inevitable. Change is something that happens all the time. It's crazy when I just like you, right? We work with businesses and they don't have a change management protocol. You don't understand. Something is always evolving, changing, updating. And there needs to be some type of change management process or protocol or at least a checklist at a minimum that you go to or go through. And it's the same thing in our personal lives. Right. I mean, we change, right. Like in the US we change presidents potentially every four years. We change senators every couple of years. You change your mayor, your congressman every couple of years. And so, like, if you're not adapting and planning and preparing for change, you're not going to ever evolve.

I love that. And you see change being a real positive thing, depending on the filter that we use to. To look at it through.

Oh, wholeheartedly. Right. Because it's. Evolution is changing evolution. And if not, we're not personally evolving either as humans and as people and as leaders. And so, yeah, I definitely see change as being positive because it's how you don't adapt to change is what the negative becomes. Right. I mean, you know, James, you might tell me, hey, Mick, we're going to have to shut off the video and have to do a phone call. Well, that's change. The outlook is. I still get to talk to James. Right? So, yeah, so it doesn't matter for me. So it's about how you process, and that's where the positive and negative comes from.

Yeah, I love that perspective. And, you know, change, you know, when we look at it are. Because we look at our why at a different level. So when we see things happen and shift geopolitically, often that can leave us feeling a little bit, you know, that feeling of despair, that feeling of lack of control. And obviously, you know, you're based in the states, we've all been kind of watching with interest as things have unfolded there with your election. Some people will be delighted, some people will be fearful, infuriated. I get it. Both sides. So what's your advice to people in terms of navigating change and embrace geopolitical change like that and embracing their. Because.

Yeah. So for me, and I'll talk political for a second, not in the details of Republican, Democrat, Independent or anything like that, but just from the side of the. No matter who's elected, it's our leader and we have a duty to uphold and to serve our leader. And same thing in businesses. Right. Like there's duties and responsibilities that we have for whoever we report to. And to me, that's what's really important. And even if you're the CEO, you still usually have an advisory board or advisory council that you report to. So what's your duty as the CEO for those that you serve? And that's how I look at it. And so when we go to your. Because. Right. It's. You're never going to have, in any fashion, someone or some entity that aligns 100% with you.

There's.

There's no such thing. So can you live with the good and the bad? And does the good outweigh the bad and not the. Not the extreme right? Take the extremes out of the way on. On all sides. That middle part, which is what I call the. Because. Right. That. That middle ground, can you really stand and live with that? And the honest answer is probably yes, because at the end of the day, most people have the same core. Most entities have the same core. You're extreme one way or the other. You've got extremists. But at the core, it's usually about the same. And that's where goodness happens at the core.

Beautiful. Really beautiful. And I want to just rewind to 10 again. So you kind of changed into a young man at 10. And then where did things go from there? Like, what did life look like in terms of education and work? How did you start to change direction?

So, James, when I was 10 and growing up in South Carolina at 10 years old and, you know, watching TV, all you see on TV, from a success standpoint, gender, race, doesn't matter. You see athletes, you see entertainers, and then you hear about doctors and lawyers. Well, James, I was going to be one of those four. And the only way that I knew how to do that was to have the highest grades in the class and to be the best athlete in school. And so from 10 until 16. If you were to ask me what I was going to do for a living, I was going to be a doctor, a lawyer, or an athlete. Like, literally, those were going to be the three things that I was going to do until I hurt my shoulder and I went to a chiropractor. And this was way back in the day, before it was mandated. You know, like most of chiropractic work now, you've got to go through a hospital. I'm sorry, physical therapy. I went to a physical therapist. And most physical therapy now you've got to have a hospital referral here in the States, right? Well, I went to a therapist because I hurt my shoulder. Who? His name was on the building, right? And his name tag was the name that I saw. And I was like, wait, you're the. You're the owner and you're a therapist? Like, how does that work? And he said, yeah, I own my business. It's my practice, it's my employees, blah, blah, blah. And I said, so what's the difference to you of being rich and wealthy? And he said, mickey. And all my family in high school, I was Mickey. He said, mickey, you. He patted me on my good shoulder. He said, being wealthy means that I get to write the check, right? And I said, wow, that's impressive. And so my mindset changed. And I knew that at that point, it wasn't about being just a doctor or being a lawyer or being an athlete. It was, I needed to be a business leader. I needed to be a business owner. And so at 16, I started shifting into thinking of the entrepreneur side of the world. So I started doing a ton of research on businesses that. That kids could start. I say kids, but teenagers could start. I changed my major going into college from I was going into physical therapy, and I changed it to business, or I was going into medicine. I changed it to business. And so that shaped my journey of, all right, what is a business owner, a business leader, need? And so, you know, I then started studying communications because it's great to own a business, but how are you going to communicate and talk to people? And so all those strategies, man, like, really helped develop me to who I am today. But again, it all went back to that promise that I made to my mom. Like, the only way that I knew how to change her life was to change her life, right? And so it took a bunch of figuring out. And so, you know, we talk about graduating college and getting your first job and understanding the world, because, again, not being naive at 21, I couldn't start a business in what, 2000. Right. But I could go work for someone and get those principles and really understand a niche market and understand an industry. And five years later I did start my own business within that niche in that market. I've never looked back. So I've been in the insurance and, or consulting and leadership space since I was 26 years old.

Incredible. That's amazing. I love that you're open to being influenced as well. So like that therapist that you went along to see, clearly their words had a massive impact on you. A profound impact.

Yeah. And I'm grateful because he and his staff kind of let me shadow them. Now I can look back at it and say it was an internship, but for me it was like, wow, they're literally going to let me learn and ask them all the questions in the world and look at all this equipment. But I've always had a curious mind. And so being able to intern for two years while I'm in high school at a physical therapist and truly understanding business was so eye opening for me.

What are you most proud of when you think about your business and what you've achieved with it?

Creating leaders.

My passion is creating leaders and so I'm most proud of the Cordero Bowlegs, the Christy Sanchez is, the Chris Smiths, the Mike Taylors, the. The people that came to me, I'm not going to say unfulfilled, but came to me at whatever place and now they can lead 400 person organizations, thousand person organizations. Those are the things I'm most proud of, is creating leaders that validate the principles that you have and the guidance that you have. To me, that's always going to be the most fulfilling.

Incredible. If there's someone listening right now that wants to be a better leader, that wants to influence others, whether it's family members, friends, teammates, employees. What would you say are the three most crucial traits? Mindsets, behaviors? What are the three key leadership traits?

Yeah, the first one is you have to love what you do. Meaning if you're a disgruntled or a non happy, excited leader, no one's going to follow you. Right. So you have to truly love what you do. And there are people that are listening that probably are in places that they don't love what they do. So go find that thing. I promise you, you're more fulfilled, there's more joy in life when you love what you do and you can do it more than you don't. So my first tip would be make sure you love the thing that you do that's amazing.

Can I jump in before we go to the second and ask a question? So if they're in a position where they don't love what they do right now, and they know that a change in career or a change in position would be good, but they're too afraid to do so, they're almost like, just freeze. Don't go anywhere. What advice or tips do you have for them?

Yeah. So number one, it's 2024, 2025. Right. Like, I promise you, more people are doing the things that they're excited about and making money doing that thing. But specifically, if you're in a position where maybe you can't go be an entrepreneur of that thing, but you're just not passionate or you're stuck in a career, have conversations with the people you report to, because maybe there's some things that you're doing in your job that maybe you don't need to do, but because you haven't spoken up about it, the person you report to doesn't know. And I would say always start there because odds are you're at a company that maybe you like. Right. But the job isn't fulfilling because we all love the job when we start, James. Right. We all love the company when we start day one. It's the greatest job we've ever stepped into. But somehow that changes. So I'm going to say have a conversation with the person or the board that you report to, and if you can't go anywhere there, then you do need to find the core traits that you must have and find companies that embody those core traits. And that evolves over time. Right. Like, that should evolve over time. So you could be at a company now and. And maybe your core values maybe haven't changed as much, but you've added some more in. And now the job or the company you're with doesn't express those or have those, and it's okay. So I would also tell you it's okay to leave. Like, genuinely, it's okay to leave. It's okay to have an unknown if you're not happy and fulfilled. Because one of my core principles are joy and fulfillment. And so everything that I do, I've got to love it and I have to be fulfilled by it. And so I would tell people that should be the same principle for you.

That's beautiful. And honestly, I can relate to that. Mick. I left a job. I'd been doing it for 13 or 14 years, maybe a little longer, and was doing well at the job, was getting paid well, but I became so bored and I had to leave. And yes, it was scary, but it's the best thing I could have done. So thank you for saying we got to love what we do. What's the other two kind of leadership principles?

Yeah. So I'm going to say whatever your leadership main skill is, master it. If you're going to be a great communicator, master communication. If you're going to be a great solution provider, master. I don't say problem solving because if you problem solve, then you just always look for problems to solve. Right. But if you're going to be a great solution provider, master that. Right. One of my great quotes is by Bruce Lee and he says, I fear not the person who that practices over 10,000 kicks once. I fear the person that practices one kick 10,000 times. And so that just means you have to continuously evolve at that thing. If you're going to be a great communicator, triple down on your communication skills. If you're going to be a great solution provider, triple down. If you're going to be great at analyzing data and knowing what the next steps are, triple down on that. So, so often we think that we need to have multi skills. Right? Well, the truth is it doesn't work that way. Right. Shaquille o' Neal was a great basketball player. Shaquille o' Neal couldn't shoot three pointers. Shaquille o' Neal wasn't going to bring the ball down the court, but Shaquille o' Neal was going to dominate at what? Shaquille o' Neal dominated it. Larry Bird, great three point shooter. You were not going to put Larry Bird in the paint and tell him to dunk on someone. Right. Like so have those skills and master that skill. But start with the one thing and don't think that you need to be 10, 15 skills deep. You just need a couple. And so that would be my tip number two.

And I'll jump in there before we go to number three because I love that this idea of the one thing, find your one thing. So a friend of mine, Jay Papasan, wrote a book with Gary Keller called the One Thing. And essentially it's like most of us are so distracted by many things that we don't really make progress. And another guy we had on the show recently was Greg McKeown. He wrote a book called Essentialism. And his motto, it ties into what you just said was most of us are in an undisciplined pursuit of more, but we should be in a disciplined pursuit of less. It's like, wow, what you're saying is exactly that. Who do you want to be as a leader? Figure that out. What's the trait communication problem or was it solution? Providing? I like that. But double down on that. Get world class best in field at the one thing.

Yeah, yeah. And, and then the third thing is surround yourself with the right circle. Everyone, James, doesn't want to see you succeed. Everyone doesn't have your best interests at heart. Always develop your circle and I will say always analyze your circle because your circle should always change. You know, you know the old saying, you never want to be the smartest person in the room. And that's true for, for leaders, right? Like the moment that I'm the best in the room at something, I know I'm in the wrong room. I don't, ach. I don't try to achieve that. I don't look for that. I purposely am always trying to go to rooms where I'm the person that needs to learn the most. And so always look at your circle and make sure that your circle is truly not only fighting for you and with you, but they're looking at the 10 year version of you, not the version of you today.

Beautiful. Such great insights. And Mick, how do you find those circles for you? Where do you go to be the least skilled person, the least, whatever it might be, intelligent person in the room? Where do you go to sit in those circles?

I have mentors, man. Like I believe in mentors and coaches. You know, I, I tell people, coaches have coaches, right? The, the best people in the world have coaches. Kobe Bryant, not Phil Jackson, but Kobe Bryant also had a personal coach. Michael Jordan had a personal coach. And so I always start with mentors and coaches because they have the wisdom and the wealth of knowledge to make sure you get in the rooms that you should get into or you're in the conversations that you should be in. So for me, that's where it starts. And if you don't have a mentor, a business mentor, a personal mentor, step one is to find that person or those people.

And I guess people could take many routes and that they could go down a very official route, search for online pay for a coach. But also equally, there could be people in their network, in the community that could just mentor them and there'd be no cost involved.

Absolutely, absolutely. And I have multiple mentors, right? Like I have probably five mentors for the various things that I do in my life because again, one of my mentors, Les Brown, legendary motivational speaker, right. Says Wisdom is what you should seek. Wisdom is who you should look for in mentors because they've gone through the challenges and problems and can shortcut it for you. Right. Like they've gone through it so you don't have to. So the different facets of your life, find mentors for those facets.

That's beautiful. Which facet of your life in 2025 do you want to double down or triple down on and become even more world class at?

So, you know, with the advent and craze of AI now, right. I am doubling down on how do I take my knowledge, my intellectual property and really help the future of leadership, the modern leader. So how do I give back what I know? And so that's what I'm really doubling down on is how can I use AI not in a selfish way, not for social media, but really to use AI and technology to give back and create safe places for leaders to continue to evolve, for leaders to continue to get better, for leaders to be good leaders. Right, James, like, and the reason I'm doing that is if I were to ask my kids who are in their mid-20s, tell me a good leader, they normally give me a name of someone who's no longer living, or a social media influencer. And I'm not saying that social media influencers aren't good or great leaders. I just don't know that they are and neither do my kids. Just because you're popular doesn't mean that you're a good leader. And I think that we're at a point now and it's not an age thing. I just think popularity is what people see and go to and they just assume that that's good leadership, that's good mentorship, that's good advisory services. Again, not saying that. It's not. It's just when I grew up, I knew stories of good and great leaders and I just don't think we have that today. And so I want to be able to provide that spark to just like my good buddy James as well.

I'm excited for you doing that. Like, that's going to be cool to watch that unfold. And I love your positive, optimistic embracing of AI as opposed to this catastrophic, avoid it, it's going to end the world viewpoint.

No, I've been testing a couple of models that I'm building now and AI doesn't have. It has hallucinations. I'm not saying that. But it doesn't have memory loss. Right. It can get to the answer faster than I could. Like you could ask Me a question about something that I said five years ago and I have to pause and think. Even if that pause and think is 10 seconds to go back to it, AI is going to be smarter, faster, and then elaborate on the concepts that I was talking about, because it's learning my database, my intellectual property. And so I'm really excited about it. And I would also say for not even from a leadership perspective, but just a life perspective as human beings. Imagine if you could take your intellectual property and now have conversations with your grandkids or have a resource for your kids to be able. What would Grandpa have said? Well, we don't have to what if anymore. I think that's where we're really going with the humanization side of AI.

Yeah, I'm very excited about it too. And I've probably been toying around for about a year. Should I or shouldn't I. With a clone, a digital clone, and a bit like you, I am constantly interviewing, I'm speaking on stages, putting out written content. So this clone has two and a half, just over two and a half million words of content in it. And I've tested it privately. I haven't put it out to the world, tested it privately with my clients, said, hey, can you just ask it some questions and engage with it like you would with a normal coaching conversation with me? And they are blown away. Wow. Like, James, this is exactly what you said to me, like months ago, or if I asked this question, I know this is what you would say. And I think there is a real power to it. It's becoming more accurate day by day.

Same. I'm doing the exact same thing, James. We have so much in common. We're almost like each other's clone. Right? But now Mick doesn't speak Italian, but my clone does. Right. Mick doesn't speak fluent French. I can say like 20 words, but my clone can say everything that I could say or think in French. It's that that excites me. It's that again, when we talk about leaders and all of us want to be global leaders and have global impacts, I think this is a way to do that.

Definitely. Question for you on that front that I have been asked by one of my mentors that is, do you feel that having a clone that might be free or low cost, do you think that might take away from people wanting to work with you directly, hearing from you, speak directly, or do you feel the opposite?

No, I think it only enhances the experience of working with me and getting that knowledge base. Because at the End of the day. And I'm not going to speak for James. So these are the words of Mick and Mick only. But a lot of times everyone can afford our services. Right. So if I can make a subset of what I do available, then I think that's freaking awesome. I think that's awesome. And if James does the same thing, I think that's even better.

Right.

So I definitely don't think it minimizes the use of us. I think it only enhances it because, you know, we're going to go work with clients and come up with a new strategy. Right. Like every client I work with, like, just so that everyone that's listening understands. Right. The things that James and I do aren't cookie cutter. Everything that we do is a true bespoke experience. And I like to use the word experience. And so there's a strategy that we're going to use that it's like, oh, yeah, it's a part of a framework. But now I can deepen where I'm going because I've got a use case for this. And so the clone is always going to learn that too. And. And it just takes real life scenarios to build some of those use cases.

Yeah, I'm very excited to watch. I can't wait to engage with your clone when you bring it to the world next year. So bring it on.

Yes, sir.

Now, let's had a NCIS special agent on the show last week and I asked a similar question of her and I'd love to ask it of you. So you're sitting with Donald Trump and he's just become president. What question might you ask him that would help him be the best possible leader he could be? A question that he could ponder, consider, journal upon. What would be the most powerful question you would ask the President of the United States?

Wow, that's a deep question, James. You're making me ponder and think about that. One of the things that when I work with leaders, and I do work with a few world leaders, I asked them a very specific question. So the question I would ask James would be this.

What does your legacy stand for in your viewpoint as it relates to leadership? What's your leadership legacy and how is that impacting the lives of millions? Because as president, that's what you get to do. I can impact hundreds, James can impact thousands of. But as president, you really get to impact millions. And so your leadership legacy, what is that.

Really powerful?

And I think that's a question that if people, and particularly presidents and prime ministers could stop to consider for A moment. I think it removes a bit of ego, but of self centeredness and think more about the we over me mentality.

Right, right, right. Not your personal legacy, but your leadership legacy.

Yeah, that's right. And yeah, here's hoping more leaders do that. I think it's crucial.

And in terms of, you know, the greatest, say, team you've ever worked with or organization, if you look back upon what made them so great, what comes to mind?

Transparency. As a leader and the clients that I have, the teams that I work with and built, having true transparency into goals, transparency into standards, transparencies into the places we're going truly helps. If I hold things close to the vest and people think that I'm not authentic or that I'm only going to give them so much, then they also become reserved. When, when we're transparent to the core and that becomes a core principle, good things happen because everyone understands the. Because everyone understands the reason that we're doing the things that we do. When, when James has to make this technology change because he's transparent. And that's a core value, a core principle. We all understand. Might not agree, but we understand. And as long as I understand, I'll fight for James to get there. And that to me, transparency by far is the biggest trait that successful companies that I've either worked with, work for, or coach now have had.

And what are the consequences when there's a lack of transparency?

You get people that don't believe, you get rumor mill right. When there's no transparency. I'm in the lunchroom telling stories about what I think is going on and why I think these things are happening. And you don't get people that are going to help you get there. I use this analogy a lot. Most leaders think that when things aren't going right, if I could just get everybody to row the paddle straight right, we'll. We'll get there. I've got people that are going left and people that are going right. If I could just get them to paddle straight in the same direction, life would be easy. And so they focus on trying to get people to row in the same direction. Well, the problem, James, is this. When there's no transparency, what you have, you have people in your boat without a freaking oar. You have people in your boat that are just sitting there and they're watching everything that you do and they're pointing out everything that's going wrong. But they don't have an OR that can help get there. They don't have a OR that can get There. And so to me, that's what having transparency does. It gives everybody the or. And then, yes, it is easy to say, okay, let's just go straight or, let's go this direction or that direction. But most. Most business leaders have people on their boat that don't have a freaking or. And that's the problem.

I love that. It's like this radical honesty, this radical openness that we need to have success. And I've heard plenty of incredible speakers talk about literally rowing in the same direction. Let's make sure the boat is, you know, everyone's rowing in the same direction. And I think it's very inspirational. But then I'm like, it's not working. I can't see this working. Why is it not working? Well, you've just explained it. Because there's a lack of transparency, a lack of connection, understanding, belonging.

Right. Wholeheartedly. Again, it's easy to go in the same direction. That's the easiest part of leadership. Right, James? If I tell you, hey, James, you're going right, you're supposed to go left. You're like, oh, sorry, let me go left. That's easy. But when James doesn't have an or, we have a problem.

That's amazing. We have a big problem.

Just a couple more questions. I want to be really mindful of your time, but in terms of decision making, I struggle at times to make decisions. The clients that I serve and some of the people that I. That I have on the show who are making pretty critical decisions for many other people, they struggle as well. And often they have frameworks or a principle or a model for, you know, making decisions that they're proud of. How do you make those decisions? Well, what's your model of decision making?

Yeah. So first and foremost, I'm going to do the right thing. Not going to do the popular thing. I'm going to do the right thing. And so if we start by that, what's the right decision? Right. Understanding that piece, then the second part is, now that we know what the decision is and should be, who and what does it impact? Because that's usually where we struggle. Most of us know what the right decision to make is. Most of the time. When we get into who and what does it impact, that's where our personal feelings get in the way. And so my second part of the framework is standards over feelings is I'm always going to do the standard. My feelings become very last. If all things are equal, if I know the right decision to make, I put the standards there. If it Fits my core values, which is three feelings become less feelings is always the least deciding factor in every decision that I make. So what's the right thing? What's the. Where is it to our standards or to my standards? Where is it to the core values that we have? And then boom.

That's amazing. I love that. Remove the feelings from it. And it's interesting. I read a lot of stoic philosophy and the stoics looked at passion as a really negative thing. And often nowadays we're like, God, you got to find your passion. You got to have, you know, a passionate hobby and you've got to, you know, follow that and. But the stoics seen that as very dangerous. When we are operating from a place of passion, often very dangerous things can unfold and things we regret. So what I'm hearing from you is like, actually, let's just tone down the feelings before we make a big decision. Feel the feelings, listen to the feelings, acknowledge them, don't suppress them. But we don't need to operate from the feelings. We can operate from what's right with values, standards and beliefs. Core beliefs.

Exactly. And you hit it on the head. Anyone that tells you that you 100% have to remove feelings and emotions from decisions, they're telling you an impossible. Sounds great on paper, but it's really going to be there. And if I know that it's okay for my feelings to be involved or my emotions to be involved, it's just the lowest common denominator. It makes it easier for me to go through my decision making process. It's when we're told, don't have feelings, don't make emotional decisions, that all of a sudden we can't think of anything else other than our emotions and feelings. Because tell a kid, you can't have candy, all they think about is candy, right? Tell a kid, don't touch a hot stove, they're attracted to the hot stove. So don't think that you can't have emotions and feelings. It just needs to be the bottom of the decision making process.

That's brilliant. Really, really great. And in terms of doing the right thing, what informs that for you? How do you know when you're doing the right thing?

We all know what the right decision is like all of us. Right. There's not a psychological story or framework that I could tell you, you know, at the core what the right decision is like all of us do. Right. Again, it's not always the popular decision, but it's the right decision. So it depends on what that thing is, which is why I say decision making. I go through those four because I can apply that to everything that I do. Right now, when we're talking, you know, do I buy this new technology, technology product, I might have different things that I'm looking for to know what's right and what's wrong. So I can't have the same thing in buying tech and then going to go buy.