Revealing your Character with Dean Karnazes

Dean, a huge welcome to the Lead on Purpose podcast.

Oh, thanks for having me as a guest. I never really consider myself as a leader, but some of your other guests certainly are.

Well, you're the ultimate leader. And I really firmly believe leadership starts with self. We can't lead others until we lead ourselves. And when we start to look at your achievements, your mindset, your grit, I mean, you're the ultimate self leader. So before we get into that, I'd love to ask you, when you think of leadership, what comes to mind?

I think to me, a leader is someone who sets a good example. And I think that your opening comment speaks to me because I'm Greek and I studied classics and, you know, Socrates famously said to Plato, you know, before you go about changing the world, change yourself. And I think what you said speaks so much to that point.

That's incredible and it's interesting. So for the listener that's new to you, I want to just give them one very clear fact. You ran 50 marathons in all 50 US states in 50 consecutive days. Right.

And I'm still alive somehow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

How the hell are you still alive after that? It's incredible. So self leadership on that journey. You've run so many incredible, challenging races, but that journey in particular. 50, 50, 50. What did you learn about yourself?

You know, I learned that I was better than I thought I was and that I could go further than I thought I could. So I had obviously a lot of doubts going into it because people were uncertain whether it was possible. I was uncertain whether it was possible. And I said, you know, that all you can do is get up every morning and have the same commitment to be the best dean that dean can be, just to give it your all from the moment you wake until the moment you go back to sleep. And just applying that very simple formula, just, I'm going to be the best I can be at every moment for 50 days. Got me through it. So, you know, I learned that great things don't happen in, you know, at once, that they happen over time, they accumulate. And 50 days of, of marathoning proved to me that if you have that stick to itness, if you have the same commitment just to be the best, that you can give it your all, that you can achieve greatness.

That's amazing. And when I think of that, the idea of incrementalism comes to mind. That building up to doing 50 marathons in 50 consecutive days, that would be multiple years or decades of incrementally committing to, to self discipline, to running right.

I think, again, going back to my Greek roots, you know, we are. We basically are the sum of our habits. So the things we do, to your point, every, every moment, every day, incrementally build us into who we are. And certainly the 50 marathons is a prime example of that.

And when you like, there'll be a listening right now going, why? Why 50 marathons? You know what. What was the internal driver to do that? What was it that you were setting out to do? Personally, I know that you get the 50 and 50 and 50, but there's something internally, that intrinsic driver. What was that that was really driving you?

I think it was curiosity. I think that to me, running is a pursuit of excellence. And to me, running is about pushing the limits of, you know, breaking down limitations. And I thought, if I can do this, I'll prove to myself that really nothing is impossible. And these lessons would carry over from running into life. That was one of the drivers, you know, the other driver was that I didn't want it to be just about me. I wanted to involve other people because I thought, you know, if I go out and do this, that's great, I can pound my chest and say, look what I did. But I thought it would be more powerful if I invited others to come and join me at marathons along the way and engage other people to kind of live vicariously through this experience. So over the course of the 50 marathons, I had several thousand runners come out and join me, some for more than one marathon. A couple actually ran six marathons with me. Six of the 50. And it was great. It just made it about more than just me. It gave it a bigger, deeper meaning, more. It was a more richer event, I think, because others could participate.

That's beautiful. And in terms of the team around you, you know, when we talk to your family, when I read a runner's high, you know, I got a really strong feeling that family sits front and center for you. You think a lot about them before running, during running, and after. So that journey for your family, what's that been like? When you've been running, you've been, you know, pushing the limits personally and physically. How has that impacted positively or negatively those connections within your family?

I hope I've set a good example, especially for my kids, because, you know, they. They've always known me as this crazy ultra marathoner that's been out, you know, doing these, you know, these seemingly impossible endeavors around the. Around the globe. I mean, I've run a marathon to the South Pole. I've Run across Death Valley in the middle of summer. I've done things that are pretty outrageous. And I think the biggest lesson is that I still love it. Even after doing it for 30 years, almost three decades of running ultramarathons, I still get up every morning and have, you know, a longing to pursue these, these incredible and adventurous sort of pursuits. So I think that that commitment and that lifelong devotion to my passion hopefully has shown them that, you know, you, you can make your dreams come true if you work hard enough.

I love that. And you mentioned something a moment ago, just around those perceived limits and those limitations and you were surprised that you could push through those. So what are those limits? Where do you believe those perceptions and those limits come from that we place upon ourselves?

That's a really good question. And I think that, I think we look around us and we look at what others are achieving or not achieving. And that's kind of how we set the ceiling for how high we can climb. And I think only through.

Biting off more than you can chew, of taking on more than you thought you were capable, do you break down those limitations. I think you need first to know your limitations and be aware of those before you can exceed them. So to me, you know, running one marathon was hard enough. The thought of, you know, running maybe 10 marathons in a row was daunting. And the idea of running a marathon in every of the US states in 50 consecutive days was terrifying and seemingly impossible. So I, you know, I set my sights on that and somehow, you know, 50 days later, I got through it.

It's incredible. And those moments of self doubt, like whether we're on the sports field, whether we're running a corporate, we have self doubt. So for you, when the self doubt creeped in like, oh, I'm so sore, I've got to stop, I can't go any further. Were there any mental moves, any self talk, anything that you used, a strategy that helps you to push through that self doubt?

Yeah, I mean, I knew my goal, I knew what I was trying to achieve, so I knew the direction I was heading. And there were certainly many moments along the way where I thought, you know, I can't do this. I mean, I remember getting out of bed on Marathon number 19 and I couldn't even put my foot on the floor. My feet were so tender, my legs hurt so much I couldn't get out of bed. And I thought, you can't even make it from this hotel bed to the sink. How are you going to run a marathon today, let alone 31 more marathons in 31 days. And at that point I said, okay, you know, it's expected.

The problem is that you're thinking too much. Don't think, just execute. So I tried my best to be in the here and now and, you know, in the present moment of time. Not to think about the future, not to reflect on the past, you know, not. Not to be checking off boxes on how many marathons I'd completed and how many were left to go, just to be the very best I could be in that instant of time. So I got very granular. I said, you know, just get to the sink, splash some water in your face, okay? You know, go to your kit and put on your running gear, you know, lace up your shoe one shoe at a time. You know, get out the door, get to the starting line, you know, take a step. When the gun goes off, take another step. And really that was how I did it. I was in the here and now and not thinking about the future, just knowing that the goal is 50 marathons. And, you know, to get there, you need to be the best you can at every moment. And that's how I did it.

Such great insights. I think that we can all apply in any field. And I wanted to ask you as well. I see that you work with a lot of incredible companies, some of the world's greatest companies. So how can the lessons you've learned from running be applied to the business world?

Well, you know, I think that to me, having worked with so many companies, so many great brands over the years, you know, I've learned a lot of things. One, I've learned that people change. You know, when you work with a company for decades, you know, there's a lot of employee turnover, so a lot of those relationships, you know, get reshuffled or lost along the way. But I think that the things that stick are really authenticity more than anything else. I think that as a marketer myself, people can spot hypocrisy. People are really sharp and perceptive. And I think the message of, of being authentic, of walking the walk and talking the talk, is the greatest message that great companies bring to their customers and their fans. And there's no way around that. Authenticity, flash, glamour, buzz, all that stuff is kind of short lived. But it always to me gets back to are you authentic? Are you using the products? Are you loving the products? Are you continually, you know, trying to improve upon the products and the messaging? So that's the biggest lesson to me is just to be authentic. And again, I think that comes Back to my Greekness, you know, the oracle at Delphi just said, you know, know thyself and be thyself. So I've learned, you know, over the course of several decades, you know, doing what I do, I've learned about who I am, and I've learned just to be who I am.

And it's interesting because I honestly think that a lot of listeners right now will be asking, like, who am I? How do I figure out who I am? So this idea of pushing yourself physically, really, really intense way through ultramarathon running. Or for others it may be F45. For others, it may be rowing, hill climbing, whatever it might be. How can that physical endurance and pushing yourself past your limits help you discover who you truly are?

Yeah, that's a very good question. And, you know, I say that everyone who's interested in truly growing needs to run a marathon. And a lot of people say, oh, that's impossible. I got someone else. I could never run a marathon. And that's why you need to run a marathon, because you think it's impossible. And the marathon teaches you so much about yourself. I guarantee to you that you'll cross the finish line as a different person than the one that was starting at the starting line.

You learn about.

Who you are through basically breaking yourself down and adversity. So how do you confront adversity? What do you do when things really, really hurt, and I'm talking really hurt, and you're really beat up and you're in so much pain, you don't think you can take another step forward? That's when you see your true colors. You see how you respond to it. You see how you react and you learn. And not everything you see, you might like, I mean, you might decide you're going to drop out of a race and not finish the marathon. And that's very revealing. And that's, you know, that's as powerful and as profound a lesson as finishing the marathon. So I just think that to know thyself, you really need to push thyself. And to me, the best way to push thyself is through physicality. And the simplest form of physicality is running. It doesn't get any simpler. You know, you can just walk out your front door and start running and see how far you can go.

And for the person that goes, no, you know what? I've got an injury. It's been there for years. What's your response to that person that comes up with the self obstacles and excuses?

You know, I think the only excuse Is you. You know, I hear that all the time. Well, I've got this niggle in my knee or, you know, I've got a bad back. And.

I usually don't comment on such a thing because if someone's overweight and they say I got a bad back, well, maybe you need to lose a bit of weight and start doing sit ups, exercising. But I think that the people that are listening to saying, oh, I could never do it because I've got this issue or that issue, I think they're the ones who really need to do it the most. Sort of a medical issue where you got a pin in your knee or something like that. If it's just some niggling in your pain in your back, or you've never been a good runner, quote unquote, or you just don't like to run, I think that those are the very reasons you need to take on the marathon.

I love it. Setting the gauntlet down.

I love it. So good.

And I promise you'll hate me at the finish, but you also love me at the finish.

Well, Dean, I've never run a marathon. In fact, my partner, Caroline, we're going down to support her at the Queenstown marathon or the end of this month. So I think you're inspiring me to maybe actually set a line in the sand for next year and actually do a marathon, get signed up and start training.

Yeah, I mean, I think that if you go to a marathon and spectate, it's infectious. There's just something about watching others kind of in the battle that makes you want to join in and be part of it. So, you know, I encourage you to be there for her and cheer her on and maybe get absorbed in the energy of it. And you know, the first thing I always say to people is sign up, choose a race at an appropriate duration in the future, maybe six or nine months, and register. And that's commitment. Once you've signed up, then, you know, I've got a goal ahead of me and it kind of, you know, reverse engineers you into taking action.

That's interesting because I also wanted to ask you around vision, like how important it is to have a clear vision. And I firmly believe once we have visions, we can reverse engineer from there. But for you in your life, you know, when you go to those and do those big goals, have you always been clear on, hey, that's what I want to do, that's why I want to do it, or has it been haphazard?

Well, no, I mean, I think that to me, there's this, this idea of never stop exploring. So to me, running, you know, is, is as much about adventure and exploration as it is about the act of putting one foot in front of the other. You know, running is a, is a, is a simple act, but it's a very diverse sport. You know, there's people that run 100 meter dashes and they're runners. You know, there are 10,000 meter runners, you know, then there are marathon runners and then there are people like me, ultra marathon runners that might run for, you know, two or three or four days.

You know, at a time. And that's a very different pursuit. So to me, I like combining travel with running. And that's why I look for adventures that are in unusual or, you know, unexpected places to do these sort of ultramarathons. And I think to me it's fascinating as well as, you know, it stirs the emotions for anyone who hears about something like that or, you know, sees a video or, you know, even an Instagram post, it's inspiring because, you know, you're, you're, you're, again, you're, you're, you're being adventurous with your life. And I think that everyone likes some creativity and adventure in their life. No matter, you know, what you're doing.

No, 100% agree. And when you're doing an ultramarathon, so when we think of a marathon, we're like, whoa, that's long. But when we're thinking of ultra, like overnight, sometimes multiple nights, I mean, the mind must go into overdrive and there must be some deep thinking. So in your experiences, what's been one of your toughest or darkest moments mentally when you've been doing a multiple day race?

You know, I've had a lot of hallucinations. You know, I've seen dinosaurs off in the distance. You know, I've had hallucinations. Talk to me. I remember running across Death Valley one time and I became extremely dehydrated and I had thrown my electrolytes out of balance. And I saw an old minor 49er walking across the road toward me. You know, one of the gold miners from California had a big gray beard, he had overalls. And I noticed he was carrying a gold pan. And when he reached me, he held out the gold pan. He said, water, water, I need water. And I was carrying a handheld water bottle and I turned it over to aspirate some water into his gold pan. And I heard the water sizzling on the, on the pavement. And I realized it was a hallucination. So I certainly. Yeah, that was pretty, pretty far out.

That's amazing. And how do you respond to adversity, those tough moments that really test you? What's your response under extreme adversity?

Yeah, again, you know, people say, what do you think about when things get really, really tough? And I don't think. I think thinking is the problem because you start to rationalize, you start to make sense of it, you start to try to figure out what's going on, and that just cascades into doubt. So when things get really, really tough, again, I turn very much inward and just focus on the here and now, the present moment of time, and literally just say, take your next step to the best of your ability. Take your next step to the best of your ability. You know, earlier this year, I ran a 100 mile or, you know, 162 kilometer race in Patagonia in South America. And in the middle of the night, a snowstorm moved in. And I was up in the mountains on this. On this ridgeline. And it was sleeting and snowing sideways, and it was the middle of the night, and it was a very steep ridgeline on either side of me. There were real steep cliffs and. And, you know, I had a headlamp on and I had, you know, full Gore Tex kit. And the wind must have been blowing, you know, 30, 40, maybe 50 kilometers an hour. And everything was just rattling. I mean, I couldn't hear, I couldn't see because the snow was blowing sideways and my light was just illuminating this blowing snow. And, you know, I had no idea how long the storm would last.

What could I do besides just focus on taking my next step to the best of my ability? So I literally tuned out everything except for my foot and the ground in front of me. And that went on for about four hours where all I did. I didn't think of anything except, where's your foot gonna go? Where's your next footstep gonna go? Where's your next footstep to go? And it's almost like a Zen, like, trance you put yourself into and you really forget about the pain. You forget about how much further you've got to go. You forget about everything. And when you come out of something like that, it's, it's, it's very, it's. It's very cleansing, actually. You feel almost rejuvenated and reborn because for a few hours you've kind of been removed from, from reality. And to me, that.

It just kind of rebirths you in.

A way that's incredible. And as you're saying that I'm really thinking about, let's say someone who's in professional sports or even say running a business. And they've got ultra marathon and that's in the form of a large project or a year long goal. And along the way they're feeling a little disoriented or tired. So with your ultramarathon running, do you take breaks? Do you slow to a walk when required? You know, do you take the time to refuel? Are there certain things you do just to make sure you can get across the finish line?

Absolutely. I mean, I have a quote. You don't have to go fast, you just have to go. So, you know, there are highs and lows. And you know, an ultramarathon is like a big business project. It is, it's daunting, it's overwhelming, it's seemingly impossible. And you know, you go into it, you know, when the gun goes off, you know, you're, you're screaming out of the gates, you're cheering, there's a lot of enthusiasm, a lot of adrenaline, you know, but that, that wears down, it wears out. And trying to keep the momentum at the midpoint when things really suck, you know, when there's a lot of self doubt like you can, you know, are you going to be able to finish?

That's when character is built. That's when you really see what you're made of and who you are.

And that narrative, the self talk, the incantations, affirmations. Is there anything that you've used that's really helped you just to push forward to that next step?

You know, I think that, I mean, I think I'm not the only one that does this, but you kind of start referring to yourself in the third person, you know, like, you can do this, kind of talking to someone else. Like you can do, you've been here before, you know it's been this bad before, you can do this. So I just keep saying, you know, you can, you can, you can. And whether that helps or not, or whether that just helps to put your mind in the current moment instead of thinking about the future or anything else, I'm not quite sure. But the other thing that I've really learned to appreciate is there's a saying, embrace the suck.

Really when things get really bad, like saying to myself, I don't know if it's ever been this horrible. Like, this is so miserable, this is so bleak, it's fantastic. I've never been this low, I've never had things this bad. So really, you know, experiencing the full range of human emotions, you know, from the. From the high of the starting gun going off just to the low of the misery of being stuck, you know, on a ridge in a snowstorm, freezing, uncertain if you're going to live through the night, you know, to back to the high of crossing the finish line and having a metal put around your neck.

I love that. And, Dean, I remember something from the book that was really. It really touched me. And you'd said running taught me that the pursuit of a passion mattered more than the passion itself. And I just wanted to ask you what that, you know, what that meant to you and why the pursuit of a passion is so important.

Yeah, I think that, you know, I'm a runner, and that's what I am. It's a simple act. It's nothing intellectual. It's nothing sophisticated, but it's who I am. And I pursue that to the best of my ability, with heartfelt intensity, with all of my faculties entirely committed to being the best runner that I can be. And I think that's brought a lot of internal satisfaction and a lot of internal reward. You know, I think, you know, someone who's aspiring to be a Nobel Prize winner, they're certainly just as committed, more so committed than I am. And that's, you know, bringing them a lot of reward. Not everyone's going to win a Nobel Prize, you know, not everyone's going to be, you know, the president of a country, but everyone can be the best that they can be and whatever their pursuit might be. So I think everyone loves something. And I always say to people, when they say, you know, I'm not satisfied with my life, with my career, I always say to them, you know, just on a piece of paper, freeform, write down, if you woke up tomorrow morning and your life was exactly as you wanted it to be, what would that look like? You know, where would you live? Would you. What car would you be driving? What would you be doing? And a lot of people think, oh, that's easy. You know, I'd be drinking margaritas on Tahiti. But then they really think it through and they think, that really wouldn't be that fulfilling. I'd like to be a blank, whatever that might be. And I think that everyone can answer that question. Like, I really. This is who I am. I want to be a poet, or I want to be a basket weaver, whatever that is. If you pursue that to the best of your ability, it's going to bring you fulfillment.

And that really aligns with what you said at the start of our conversation just around being in the pursuit of excellence. And it's, you know, when I think of you, when I read your book, that when I see what you've done in your career, that you're constantly in process, constantly in the pursuit of that excellence.

Yeah, I think that's, I think that's one of the reasons I like, I write as well, because, you know, you just cannot write the perfect book. And writing is every bit as hard as ultramarathon, if not more difficult. So, you know, I like these pursuits where, you know, it's a process, you know, you can never write the perfect book that you're always needing just to improve upon, you know, the things you've already, already said and written. And that to me is.

You know, it talks about the journey being more rewarding than, you know, crossing the finish line.

And it's so true. When you look at any great journey, it's the journey that you remember. It's not necessarily the gold medal at the end. Right.

Yeah, that's so true. And you know, the other thing that I think a lot of people overlook is it's, it's the little moments in life that we most cherish. I mean, I look back on my career and yeah, I've been on the podium and, you know, I've had accolades. You know, I've, you know, I was, yeah, I've won a lot of awards, that kind of thing. And those were, those were gratifying moments. But, you know, then I look back at the times where, you know, running with my daughter, you know, the first 10k we did on her 10th birthday, we ran a 10k together. And it was that moment that I cherished the most.

That's beautiful. That's so lovely. And in the book, you talked as well about Nicholas coming along to one of the big races and what it meant to you and what it meant for your connection with him. So what are some of those other magic moments that you've shared with your family?

Yeah, I mean, it's been a journey and, you know, no runner is an island. I mean, as anyone listening to this, who's a runner or an athlete knows, you know, it's a very divisive pursuit. I mean, you're out there by yourself. It's very self absorbing. So, you know, this brings people together. It blows relationships to smithereens. And thankfully, my running has brought my family together. And, you know, I've taken them on almost all of my adventures. I mean, they, my kids were along with me for the 50 marathons in 50 states. My mom is a retired school teacher and she would get the lesson plans from my kids school every week and they would do their homework with her. So you know, they've grown up in this kind of atmosphere and you know, it's quirky, it's a different type of lifestyle and I hope that that's captured in my books. I mean, you know, so much of my books are about family and I think that, you know, family is so important. And thankfully my family's fairly colorful so they make a good cast of characters.

Oh, it's brilliant just to hear the banter between your mom and your dad and the trips away that you have. I thoroughly enjoyed it. In fact, I just, I highlighted so many inspiring quotes and takeaways in the book and one that that really stuck out, it was really simple but profound was that running a marathon doesn't just build character, it also reveals it.

Yeah. And I think again that's why I encourage people to sign up for a marathon because it reveals character to your, to yourself. And you know, you learn about your weaknesses and your vulnerabilities and I think until you expose yourself to those, you don't really know who you are.

And when you do expose those and what you have, what's the next step? What's that next foot forward in terms of, hey, now I've exposed it, I know where I'm vulnerable. I know where, you know, there's maybe an ugly side there or a shadow. What's the next step? What do you do with that?

I think you can improve upon it. I think when you see more deeply into your character and there are flaws that you notice, you're more aware of it. I think.

Improve self improvement starts with awareness.

Again, you can't be truly aware of yourself until you put yourself in very adverse situations. And once you have those traits revealed, you can work on them. You know, you're aware that I'm kind of, you know, I'm not as gritty as I thought I was and I give up a little bit too easily or I'm too quick to make excuses. You know, you learn, you learn this about yourself and you know, in future pursuits when you're in a similar situation, you reflect back and you say, you know, I made an excuse and got out of it last time I was here, but this time I'm not going to do that. I'm going to stick it out. So again, I think that.

Running a marathon increases your self awareness tenfold.

And the greats, if we look at any field, the people who we would regard as the greats, they tend to stay in the game a lot longer than their competitors. So for you, how do you remain entirely in the game and throughout your season of running, your life of running, how have you remained in the game?

I don't know.

I don't know if it's just.

Boneheaded determination and discipline because people say it's amazing that you've been doing this for three decades and you still love to run. And they say, aren't there ever moments where you just don't want to run? And yeah, there are plenty of moments. And at those moments, I forced myself to run. So I don't, I, you know, I love the pursuit of physical excellence and it's, it's, I guess it's in my DNA. But yeah, I mean, I look through these. You know, I just saw a list from Men's Health of like the 50 fittest people in America. And I'm on the list. And.

No one says, hey, this guy's, he's 60 years old. I mean, you're looking at these other people, they're, you know, they're mostly in their 20s or some people in their 30s, or they're saying, you know, these people in their 30s are kind of getting old and they're kind of, you know, their game is over. And here's this like 60 year old guy that's still running 100 mile ultramarathons. But it never get that never gets mentioned. I'm just still on these lists and I kind of see these lists and I look and I kind of laugh to myself, like, how am I still on this list when everyone else is 20 or 30 years younger than me?

I think that's amazing.

Well, you know, the other thing is that, you know, I know that physical fitness is so important in what I do and physical health. So, you know, my whole lifestyle is revolved around activity and fitness. I mean, even right now, as we're doing this interview, I'm standing up, I never sit down from the moment I get out of bed in the morning until the moment I go back to sleep. You know, I'm doing all my writing standing up. My gym, I've got an outdoor gym and I'm looking out the window at my gym. So I've made it very easy for me to be active. And I think that that has been conducive to my longevity. Mmm.

It's interesting you say that. I was chatting with Dr. Haley Perlis a few months ago, and she works with Olympians and sports psychologists. We were talking about developing the habit of movement and exercise. And she suggested, look, a lot of people say, look, I'll do five days on, two days off. And her feeling was that, no, what you want to try and achieve is every day move your body, make it a daily habit, even if it's 15 minutes, but just move. So what do you do to keep that momentum happening? Is that a daily commitment to movement? Is it four on, three off?

No, it's. I mean, it's a daily commitment. And, you know, I kind of have been following this somewhat, you know, hard, easy regime, and that's very high level. So, you know, like a couple days ago on Sunday, I did a really hard 50 kilometer run, and yesterday I did a very easy 5 kilometer walk, jog, if you will. So every day doing something, but some days pushing much harder, other days going a little bit easier. You know, people say, you know, learn to listen to your body.

If I listen to my body, I'd be sitting on the couch, you know, eating potato chips, drinking beer. Right? I mean, that's what you want to do. That's what's going to bring you the most pleasure. But to me, it's about.

More tuning into the fact that every day I'm going to get up and move again. I encourage people listening. Just try it a couple days a week. Try saying that you're not going to sit down from the moment you get out of bed until the moment you go back to sleep. Now, obviously, if I'm getting in a car to drive somewhere or if I've got to fly somewhere, I'm sitting down. But on those days when you don't have to sit down, try standing all day. Just something simple like that. And I mean, bounce around on your toes and see how you feel after standing up all day.

Well, Dean, I just got off my stool and I'm standing right now.

I'm listening. I love it. What's next for you? What excites you? What's on the cards for the next 12 months that gets you fizzed and excited?

You know, I mean, this. This is going to be very random to you and maybe unexpected, but I just. I just finished writing a screenplay. A Hollywood screenplay. Yeah.

Well done.

Yeah, but it's. It's not. It's. I mean, I've. I've. You know, I've written two screenplays now. The first was.

One based on my first book, Ultramarathon Man. So you kind of know the story. If you read my book, you kind of know the storyline of that movie, and that's more linear. The second script I just wrote is about Socrates, the ancient philosopher. So it's really about. It's set in 400 BC in ancient Athens. And it's quirky, it's unexpected, and it's. It also combines life lessons with the storyline. So, you know, my goal was to write a story that was, you know, from the moment you, you know, the opening scene to the closing scene, you're just, you're glued to the screen. And part of that to me was you can't, you know, a movie about an ancient philosopher, you can't fill it with action scenes. So I thought, if there's not killing, if there's not bloodshed, if there's not action, how do you hold an audience attention? And I thought, you know, you educate them in quirky and unexpected and profound ways. So anyway, that you can tell, I'm very passionate about this and I just finished it. So that, that is, you know, kind of absorbed my passions for the past, past year, on and off, as I've been working on it concurrently, I'm planning another run, a long run with a friend of mine, from the lowest point on Earth to the highest point on Earth. So we're looking at probably 20, 24, because we're working with a film production company that's going to document it, but that's in the works. So you probably know the highest point on Earth, and it's not a trick question. It's Mount Everest. And the lowest point on Earth is the Dead Sea. So we're going to try to run either, depending on the route we choose, either about 3,000 miles or about 5,000 miles from the Dead Sea to the top of Mount Everest.

Wow. And I imagine not only would there be logistics challenge, but there'd be geopolitical challenges, there'd be potential threats to your personal safety.

Well, that's. And that's why I said it's either about 3,000 miles or 5,000 miles, because the shorter route goes through Iraq and Iran. And the State Department, the US State Department is saying, no, you're not going to be able to do this. And so the longer route is going up through the stands, you know, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan.

But it's funny, I've mentioned this endeavor in a couple interviews, and I have so many people, especially from Iran, that have contacted me on social media and said, look, you have to come through our country.

There are runners here, and we're just like you, and we will meet you guys at our border. And we will have 100 people running with you every day across our country. And to me, that just speaks to something higher than our differences. You know, it's this running uniting people. The very simple act of putting one foot in front of the other is something universal. Yeah. You know, the God we worship might be different. The color of our skin might be different, you know, the language we speak. But running unites us. So I am pushing as hard as I can. That's one of the reasons it's taking so long to organize this is I really want to go through Iraq. Iraq and Iran.

I think that'll be incredible. Just to follow that journey and to go from the lowest point to the highest point through all those ups and downs of what you're going to have to achieve to get there, it'll be phenomenal. And on your screenplay, after we finish our conversation, I want to introduce you to an incredible guy, fellow American, called Patrick Mosher. He runs an amazing program called the Wisdom Council. He just got back from with his Wisdom Council members from the Oracle, the Delphi. And I think you and him would have an incredible conversation around Socrates. And, yeah, he's right into it.

I'd love to get connected with him. I. You know, I've been to Delphi a number of times. I actually carried the Olympic torch in Greece across Delphi.

Wow, that's amazing. I'll definitely introduce you guys. I'll do that right after. Now, before we wrap up, I've got one question. I always save this to the end. And if we were to fast forward to the very end of your life, it's the last day. You know, it's your last day, and someone very young, maybe a grandchild, a young person within your family network comes up and asks you this question, Dean, how can I lead my life on purpose? What would your advice or feedback be to them?

This is gonna be, again, a very Greek answer, but.

Be who you are.

I love it. I love it.

There are silence. I don't know if that was. I don't know if the silence was a good thing or a bad thing.

But, yeah, I'm letting that land with me and just take that in and be who you are. And it's interesting you say that because Bronnie Ware, she wrote an incredible book. She was a palliative care nurse, and she wrote a book called the Five Regrets of the Dying. And she spent a lot of time with people on their last days. And the number one regret was that we spend a large part of our lives worried about what other People think of us and we then act and behave accordingly to impress others. And what you've just said is just so striking and so powerful. Be who you are. It's amazing.

Well, there's another quote I have that I just love. I don't know how it sits with others, but I always say that nobody wants their last thought to be. I wish I would have laughed more.

So, I mean, have some fun with life. I mean, I'll leave you with a movie called Zorba the Greek. And it's an old movie. It's an old book by a Greek author that I just love. And it's so irreverent and it just, it so speaks to life being fun. I mean, life being something to celebrate. And, you know, essentially his business just goes to hell in a handbasket, you know, and the last scene is him with his buddy drinking some ouzo on a beach, you know, Greek dancing. So celebrate life as well.

I love it. Yeah, I've got great memories of Uzo from the days in Faliraki in Greece, that's for sure.

We'll not go there.

That's for another. Another episode of the podcast. Yeah, 100%.

Hey, Dean, I just want to say a massive thank you. I have a feeling this is not the last time we will speak or connect and I'll be following your journey and I want everyone that's listening right now. If they're on their phones, they can either go to audiobooks, they can go to Amazon or their local bookseller and order a copy of A Runner's High. It was truly an incredible book. I learned a lot about myself. There's a few challenges that were set out in there that particularly around self discovery that have really excited me. So. Great book. If you're a runner, you're going to love it. If you're not a runner, you're going to love it. So I'll put the link in the show notes for people to grab a copy and yeah, I'm excited to see what the next year or two brings for you, Dean.

I appreciate you being such a gracious host and I hope I didn't bore you senseless. And I hope the audience learned something from our conversation. But I very much enjoyed our time together.

Thank you so much, Dean. We'll talk soon. Hey guys, if you enjoyed the content today, please smash that subscribe button below. Below. And if you want to become part of my community, I've got an amazing free Facebook group. Please come and join us. The link is in the description below and Also, if you've got any questions about today's session, I'd love to know. Just comment below and I'll be sure to get back to you guys. Have the most amazing day.