SIR JOHN KIRWAN : From All-Black Legend to Mental Health Advocate

I'm so excited that we get this opportunity to connect and talk about one of the most important parts of human well being and that's our mental health. And I just want to start by asking, why are you so passionate to talk about and advocate for mental health?

Probably because I wanted to jump out of a window one night.

I think externally everyone saw this young, successful, all black who had everything but. And behind the scenes I was hiding anxiety and depression. It was probably, you know, the anxiety started probably when I was a bit younger, 13 or 14, something like that. And then as I got more successful and more in the limelight, I kept getting anxiety attacks, which I ignored. And then it full. And it fell into a full sort of depression. So.

I never planned my own suicide that I feel internally grateful for, but I certainly had suicidal ruminations.

And, you know, I talk about how hard it is when you're in that hell. You know, a minute feels like an hour, an hour feels like a day, and a day feels like a week. So at the end of every day, because I was living this lie, I would just be absolutely exhausted. And I was on an all Black tour in 1990 in Argentina, and.

I decided I was sick of fighting it. And I was about to run and jump out the window.

And the 10th floor of the Hilton and Buenos Aires, the, the window was open and.

The guy lying next to me said, jk, you've got a good heart. And he saved my life. So that sort of started the journey for me. I played a test match the next day for New Zealand.

Scored two tries, but it was irrelevant. It was like watching myself from the stand, you know. And so I.

Finally got home. And when, I mean, finally got home was just a battle. Went and saw my doctor, who's actually all black doctor, you know, I'd been on tour for a month, didn't talk to him, and you know, he, he said, jk, it's an illness, not a weakness. And I went, wow. You know, and I think from there on in, although it took me probably seven years to get all the way through it and, and to be as I, I sort of talk about, you know, going from surviving to thriving. And you know, for me, the journey wasn't always straightforward. You know, it was a couple steps forward, a couple steps back. Pretty bumpy road, but out the other end, pretty, pretty good place to be. And I think that.

You know, part of the reason that I wanted to get involved, I mean, for me, you know, when he said it's an illness, not a weakness, and part of the illness takes away your self esteem, your self confidence and your enjoyment in life. You know.

It'S funny how you can be a room of 200 people and feel incredibly lonely. So, you know, that's all part of the illness, which I didn't understand. And if you don't understand it's an illness then then you think it is you, you're not good enough. You know, I can't handle the pressure. I'm not good enough to be an all black. Whole lot of different other stupid going on in your mind. But the other interesting thing for me is I had no reference to mental health. You know, my, my reference to mental health was one flow of the cuckoo's nest, you know, so I thought if I spoke about my mental health I'd be locked up with Jack Nicholson and, and Chief, the bigger American Indian guy, you know, so, so for me, you know, for me it was probably the hardest thing I've ever done was to originally talk about my mental health publicly because of the stigma involved and you know, people thinking less of me, thinking I wasn't good enough, blah, blah, blah, which was all bullshit to be fair. So for me that's probably the motivation. And my motivation is that.

You know, we have in New Zealand especially one of the highest suicide rates in the ocd. So when, when I started talking about it, my goal was to help sort of drop that.

And so, yeah, that was sort of the motivation that started my journey. Anyway.

Yeah, it's incredible. Thank you for sharing that. And you're, you're, you're right in terms of like the OECD statistics are horrific for New Zealand in terms of teen suicide, child mortality, domestic violence. It's like we're heavy hitters on that, those charts and it's, it' quite sad. So the work that you do is critically important. I want to take a moment just to talk about you in. You were an all black, you were a high performer, you, you know, you're a good looking man, you had everything going for you. Now anybody wanted to point that out, they wouldn't have seen depression, they wouldn't have seen suicidal rumination, they would have seen high performer legend live in their life. So you've got all this going for you. But people generally when we, you know, generalize and think of someone that's suffering with mental health, they've got their head hung low and they talk with a low tone and they feel very sorry for themselves. But that's not the case. So how can we look out for the people in our lives who seem to have it all going for them. How do we spot red flags or even maybe yellow flags and support them?

Well, we need to get rid of stereotypes, Right.

And you being Irish would understand what it's like living with a stereotype, right?

100%. Yeah.

So, you know, the stereotype around success, love.

You know, all sorts of different stuff is actually, I don't know where it comes from, but the stereotypical thing around depression and all that is because those that, those that. I mean, how many times have you heard, I took his life and I didn't know anything? You know, I can run out on a test match and all you see is the rugby player. You know, you don't see what's going on internally. So the stereotypes that we create, and I don't know where they come from, we need to be very, very care because they're just not true the majority of the time. Now, you know, people can get really down and they, you know, they can visibly see that, but a lot of us fake it. And what you're seeing on the outside doesn't necessarily mean that someone's dead on the inside.

And that individual that was in the room with you in Buenos Aires made a life changing, life altering difference to your life by saying, hey, you got a good heart. So how can we be that person? For someone listening right now that knows there's someone in their life that needs to hear that, how can we be that person and show up when people need us most?

What do you think you're. Why do you think you do these.

Webinars, podcasts? Why do you do them?

Do them to make a difference in people's lives, People who want to improve, people who want to do better and help others.

Yeah, but where does that come from?

Desire to give back. Desire to, I guess, have more purpose in my life and have a reason for being.

I'd also say that it probably come from curiosity, you know, And I think the world is pushing us all to think about ourselves. But if you're genuinely curious about someone, then you'll ask them, you know, good questions. And one of the things that we're trying to do, especially at Groove, which is a business that I co created five years ago, is we're trying to change the dialogue and trying to think about preventative mental health. But also we're trying to open a discussion that is not about how unwell you are or are you depressed. Right. Because most of the time we talk about depression and anxiety, it's already too late. It's ambulance, bottom of the cliff. But how do I talk to you today and how do I say, you know, are you okay man? And you won't give me the normal, yeah, I'm all good mate, you know, good bro. Or you go, I'm a bit flat today. Well, you need anything? Help? No, no, it's all good, you know, whatever. So you don't have to bring your whole self to work, right? But you do. We do have to start opening up a little bit more about how we actually are and that doesn't mean to the whole world, you know, I tell people that are, that are suffering from mental health, you don't have to stand on the top of the roof and scream it to the whole world like I did, you know, it's your mental health but you do need a group of people around you and also your workplace that understands that you can't be that perfect person every single day, really powerful.