The Daily Habits of Mentally Strong Leaders | Graeme Cowan

Today's special guest is Graham Cowan. He is the founder of the movement Are You Okay? and a phenomenal author and speaker. And we're going to talk about resilience and burnout. So if you feel like there's a lot going on right now, you're struggling to keep up with it, I promise you this is the episode for you. Enjoy. Graham, a huge welcome to the Habits of High Performers podcast. How you doing?

Very well, thanks, James, and lovely to join you.

I'm so glad you're here. I feel like from what I've learned about you and what I've heard about you, we speak a very similar language in that high performance is about consistently exceeding norms whilst taking care of our well-being and our relationships whilst we do it. It's not about winning at all costs. Now, you've actually brought out a book recently. You're the author of 5 books. This is your most recent one. I'm going to put out actually a link in the show notes. It's called Great Leaders Care. I love that title. Tell me, why did you write that book?

It was really, I guess, through personal experience. You know, I'd been in senior roles in leadership, Vice President with Kearney, the global consulting company, and I led or co-led their executive search or recruitment division. And we had the tech crash and basically I crashed and burned and I was out of work for 5 years, never thought I'd get back to work. But gradually built myself back up again. And really, over a period of time, I was talking more about resilience and more about mental health. And I helped start a very successful charity in Australia called Are You OK? But what I really come to understand is that to sustain success, a leader needs to embrace what I call the Great Leaders Care Mindset, which is about self-care, how we build our own personal mood and performance, crew care, which is about building psychologically safe and resilient teams, and red zone care, which is being able to identify and support those that have been struggling.

That's amazing. I want to go into that and go into the depths of that. So interesting at this time when I look at what's happening at the macroeconomic level, geopolitically, there's a lot of change. A lot of uncertainty, volatility. And that comes back to leaders because leaders carry a lot of pressure, a lot of expectations. Can I just ask you, from experience and from the research you've done, what's the potential cost or consequence to the leader who just keeps on going, doesn't give a damn about health and well-being and relationships? What does the future look like for them? James here. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about something. Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops for teams and companies all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from armies to small businesses to large corporates to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers, around the habits of high performers, about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please is get in touch with my team. Caroline@jjloughlin.com will be able to help. I'll also make sure that we put that in the show notes.

Well, I was an extreme example of that. You know, I was out of work for 5 years. So, and of course, that doesn't happen to everyone. And some people have a certain disposition that leads to that happening. But without doubt, one of the, I guess, biggest breakthroughs I came to understand was what I call the Moodometer. And we're all somewhere on that Moodometer going from 10 out of 10 where we're at our very best, right down to 1 where we're at our very worst. And what I discovered is that there are proven ways to lift ourselves up into the green zone. And there's huge business benefits to that. It was Shawn Achor that showed that If you are in the green zone, you're 31% more productive, you sell 37% more, and you're 200% more creative. These are all amazing work and leadership benefits.

Massive. I mean, if you said to anyone, I'll give you those 3 things or even just one of those things and it won't cost you much, I think people will be jumping at it.

And I also have something which I'm very happy to share with your guests as well. And it's called a Blue Daumenter Action Plan. So when you're in the red zone, what are the top 5 things you do to move to the amber? Same with the amber if you want to move to the green. And if you're green, what do you do to stay in there? And as your, you know, show is all about, it is about rituals and habits. It really is.

Amazing. And what I like about that, I like this idea of like if you're in the red, let's say you're a 1 out of 10. This is not about what can I do to get to a 9? This is about shifting up this scale and gradually shifting up that emotional scale and that energetic scale. Why is that important that we set those kind of parameters and goals that are incremental rather than let's go from depressed to elated?

Yeah, well, if you're a 1, you couldn't believe in 100 years you'll ever go back to 9. You know, you just— when you're in that state and I was in it for 5 years, you are insane. You actually are insane. Like, I believed I would never recover. So I know firsthand that it's little incremental steps which really, really help. Little habits, you know, around our physical health, our emotional connections, but also really being focused on the purpose of our work and how we can be most effective by using our top strengths. Because work is a really, really important part of our wellbeing. You may be familiar with this book by Gallup called Wellbeing, and they identified that there were 5 different areas of wellbeing, you know, physical, mental, social and community, and career. Now, out of all those, they found that career was the number 1 predictor of thriving in all of them sort of thing. So if we aren't enjoying our work, quite frankly, it's hard to be thriving in other areas as well.

Yeah, it's really important, I think, to make note of that because so many people think that this work and life thing is separate, but actually it's all connected. It's interconnected.

And that's why I hate the term work-life balance, because for me it implies that life is good, work is bad. But many people, including myself, and I'm sure yourself as well, James, work's an important part of your life. You know, it can be it could be tough at times as well. But if you do think you're making a positive difference, if you do think you're out there to serve others, it does lift your self-esteem. It does lift your sense of purpose and meaning.

Yeah, absolutely. And you've talked to so many top CEOs. You've been a top leader yourself. So you know what that looks like to be purpose-driven or to be profit-driven, to have some sense of— I don't like the word balance, but counterbalance where you're going, you know what? Yeah, I've done a couple of 80-hour weeks because I needed to with my work. But now, I'm going to have a weekend off or I'm going to spend it with the family. I'm going to counterbalance it. So, could we take a moment to go into your book, Great Leaders Care, and talk about those 3 different stages, just one at a time?

Yeah. So, in the self-care, there are 3 elements that contribute to that. So, there's what I call vitality. So that's our physical health, and that's about move well, rest well, eat well. It's keeping energy in the tank. The second element is intimacy. And you may have heard of the Harvard Adult Development Study, which basically followed 600 people for their entire life. And they came to one overwhelming finding, and that is that the best predictor of a long life a happy life, a lower stress life, a longer sex life. It's having caring and supportive relationships around us. And, you know, through my own experience, I learned the quality of our relationships really determine the quality of our life. So that's the second part. And then third part is around our prosperity. And this is our career or contribution energy. And there's three areas about that. It's having a sense of purpose. So knowing what your direction to help navigate the really big changes that are happening in the world today. The second part is what I call our strengths. And these are our tools. If we use our top 5 strengths, we're always going to be more effective. And then the third element is gratitude. And this is our energy. And we have a predisposition of humans of having a negativity bias. And with conscious effort, we can recognize the good things that happen as well. Because for many of us, you might have 4 things happen today, 3 great, 1 bad. And the basic human physiology means we tend to focus on the bad. And there were reasons for that when we were wandering across the savannah when there was saber-toothed tigers and all that sort of thing. But it really pays to appreciate the things we do have.

Yeah, that's beautiful. I love you sharing that. Dr. Barbara Fredrickson from Northwest University did a study called— she ended up calling it a 3-to-1 positivity ratio, where it was if something, let's say, negative happens in your life or you're thinking about it, you need to really focus and appreciate 3 positive things to outweigh the impact of that negative. And I love that you're talking about gratitude as a solution to that. That's beautiful. So, let's look at that first section. You've shared some really amazing insights. Let's make it really tactical. So, the person that's listening right now going, okay, what are a couple of habits, daily habits that maybe I could start today, this week that could help me in a few of those areas?

I have something as well, which I'm happy to share with your listeners, James, but I call it a self-care scorecard. And under each of those 3 categories is 5 questions. And depending on what your lowest category is, whether it's vitality, intimacy, prosperity, there could be a clue there what you should be focusing on next. So I think that is really, really helpful. But it's also very good to have, I guess, the other side of that. And that's a VIP weekly planner. And so it's something that I, every Sunday, I review the past week and what didn't go so well. But for the week ahead, let's actually schedule, you know, have I got wellbeing things in place? Am I catching up with people that are good for me? Am I contributing in the best way in terms of following my purpose and using my strengths? And there's a professor at NYU called Peter Golwitzer And his specialty is intention to action. And what he's found in many repeated experiments is that if we decide when and where we're going to do something, it increases the chance of happening by 300%. 300%. That's wild. Yeah. So, you know, part of it is, you know, pre-scheduling appointments for you, for, you know, for those wellbeing things. But also thinking, okay, where am I going to do it? And just by really thinking about those two things increases the chance of happening substantially.

That's incredible. Thanks for sharing that. I think, you know, I always say what gets scheduled gets done. And I mean, I'm a living example of that. If it's not on my calendar, it doesn't get done. Like, I just, I don't show up. I don't do the thing. I don't go for the mole check. I don't go for the massage. But if it's on the calendar, like, I'm there, you know.

Exactly.

That's amazing. And may I ask, do you journal?

No, I don't. But there's a couple of things that evolved for me which were really important. One of the people I interviewed on The Caring CEO was Mike Schneider, who's the managing director of Bunnings, 55,000 people. And he shared with me what he led to guide his life and also his leadership. And it came down to the 4 H's. So the first one was honest, humble, helpful, and happy. And whenever I share that, you know, in an audience, people scribbling them down. But I think it's also important to discover your own. And so I ended up coming down to my 5 C's. And that's the things that guide me most days and each week in terms of reviewing that. And that's around caring. It's being centered. And that's really, you know, the struggle ends when gratitude begins. So I uncover calm, clarity, and perspective. Curious, seek first to understand, strive to be understood. And the fourth is constructive, being helpful and useful. And the fifth is chuckling like my dad. My dad, who's passed away, had a wicked sense of humor, but I tried to remember how he embraced that each day.

That's beautiful. Thanks for sharing that, Graeme, and being so personal. You're letting us into your life and into what helps give you structure to be a high-performing leader yourself. So could we for a second just say, pretend this is the end of the week? I know as we're recording it, it's Thursday, but let's pretend it's Sunday. And you're looking back, could you take me through those 5 C's and just give me a, hey James, this is how I went this week and this is what next week might look like?

Well, part of the planning is you've put down what you last Sunday, you've put down what you hope to do that Sunday. So this Sunday, you compare what's happened, what hasn't happened. And I never do all of them. I start off very optimistic, but But I think I do the important ones. And at the end of the day, that's the best way to invest your time. So, you know, it is literally in terms of how I incorporate those 5 C's. Each week I decided to focus on just one. And so I write down, you know, for example, caring. And so I'm caring, I care for the one I'm with, and if I'm by myself, that's me. And you'll never regret being kind. So writing that down each day, at the start of each day, I ask two questions. The first question is, what good am I going to do today? And that's really a big impact thing around that C, that care that I'm focusing on. And then if I do one thing today, which will be deliver a great outcome and grateful about, what would that be? And that's not just doing the urgent and important, it's also really focusing on the important but not urgent because over time you really hope that you can almost replace yourself with, so I don't have to be presenting each time there's e-learning for people to go through. There's frameworks to follow. And yes, that's how I try to stay on top of the 5 Cs, the reflections, but then to plan the week ahead as well.

That's wonderful. Thank you. You know what I like about that is that it's common sense, but it's not always common practice, right? And it's what you're saying, just make— I'm sure everyone's going, oh my goodness, this makes so much sense. Why am I not doing it?

You know? And I do share all that background, the 5 Cs and how I apply it in Great Leaders Care as well as part of my self-care, you know, how I came back from horrendous depression, you know, to living the good life I do now.

I love that. And please take me to the second section of the book.

Yeah, so that's around crew care. And one of the things I often do— have you— you know, Are You Okay? is primarily an Australian mental health charity, but have you heard of it as well?

Are you okay?

Are you okay?

Absolutely. It's huge here in New Zealand.

Well, that's great to hear. That's great to hear. So one of the things I do when I'm doing a keynote is tell the story of Are You Okay? How it started with just 4 of us. Gavin Laughlin was the founder, but there was another 3 in that first year, part-time, you know, it was like trying to launch it and we didn't have much money, didn't have any full-time employees, but Anyway, we did decide to launch it and the first year was good and then it's built and built and built and built. But tragically, Gavin Larkin, the founder, passed away in 2011, just 2 years after it started. But I then reflect on launching Are You OK? on the largest frigate in the Australian Navy, the HMAS Adelaide. And launching it with, you know, 600 sailors about to go away for 6 months or so. And it was made really special by— his name was Stephen Hughes. He was a Commodore at the time, but he's been promoted now to Rear Admiral. And he just nailed it in his talk. You know, he said that, you know, we've heard about the downsides of not looking after ourselves, not sharing what's going on. But I want you just to keep in mind 3 things. If this has never touched you, He said, the first thing is we don't want to lose anyone in the Navy family to suicide. And he used that word, Navy. And, you know, look out for each other. You know, look for the signs when people are withdrawing socially or moodier than normal. And, you know, ask that question, are you okay? In fact, he even has— and he sent me a photo of this— an Are You Okay Mat to the entrance of his office. In Canberra. And so, and then he said, this is also a capability issue. You know, the Navy is no more or no less than hundreds of great teams, but if one person's compromised, the team is compromised and the ship is compromised. So just bringing it back to, you know, effectiveness. And then he said, this is also about risk mitigation. You know, we in the Navy, we'd rather take an enemy out from 1,000 kilometers than 1 kilometer when there could be collateral damage. And he said, same way, you know, that is the same with mental health and mental well-being. The earlier we catch it, the better. And then we walk up to the top of this deck and form this massive 'Are you okay?' with everyone standing in line on the deck of the ship. And as I was going home from that, I really reflected that this was probably one of the best teams I've ever been in that had gone from 3, sorry, 4 part-time people to what it has become today. And I just thought Gavin would be so proud and just talk to him a bit. Mate, how good is this? You know, whoever thought that it would get to this?

It's incredible.

So, and then I throw it back to the audience. I say, what about you? What's been a great team you've been part of? It could have been your year 9 football team or netball team or this job or a previous job, but it was a team that didn't necessarily have it easy, but it just really pulled together and great things happened. And so I asked him, I asked them to reflect on and see the faces in that team and think what was different about that team. And then I used an anonymous poll like a Mentee with about 10 different factors, you know, including having a compelling vision, complementary strengths, great strategy, all that sort of stuff. But in 95% of the cases, people say that the top 3 things are that we cared about each other, we had each other's back, and we encouraged each other. And they're all incredible human belonging elements, aren't they?

They really are.

And so when I advise people about how we should build those sort of teams, I talk about 3 elements. The first is to care about belonging, to really do things that connect each other, get to know each other better. You don't have to love everyone, but just be supportive. And having each other's back is another great way of showing that we're all in this together. So that's the first about caring about belonging. Next is leading with psychological safety. And that's creating an environment where people can be their authentic selves. They feel comfortable making suggestions and contributions and know they won't be shot down. But they also feel comfortable to challenge an idea they don't fully agree with. And you may be familiar with Amy Edmondson's work and that article in New York Times called What Google Learned in Its Quest to Build the Perfect Team. And psychological safety comes up number one. They're more innovative, they try new things, not always successful, but they learn quickly and move on. And then the third element of having this great crew care is growing together. And that's sort of linked to the psychological safety, but it's encouraging each other to take intelligent risks. We can never expect to have 100% of the information these days before we make decisions, but take an intelligent risk. And Amy Edmondson describes that very quickly. It means you've really thought about something, you've considered the options, you have a hypothesis of what's right and you try it, you know, you go for it for 90 days and if it doesn't work out, you learn quickly and move forward. But if it does, you know, pedal to the metal, you know, let's keep it going sort of thing. But yeah, they're the elements of great crew care in that mindset.

Yeah, I really do resonate with that care piece a lot because As you said about think of a team, and I think back to this team I was a part of in Vancouver, Canada. I was 18 to 22 or something. I was there for a number of years. And I think what made us special, how did we perform? And we cared for each other. It was almost like family. We really deeply cared for each other. But we also fought like family, like bickered, but we made up. We did care and encourage each other and push each other and challenge each other. And so what you're sharing just makes sense. And I felt like I had a voice. It felt like it was safe enough to speak up and to share your ideas.

And that's another thing about psychological safety in teams. Everyone speaks approximately equally. It doesn't mean it's a democracy, but it does mean that people feel heard and are making a contribution to the direction of the team and also the organization. And for a manager or leader, making sure or encouraging people that are introverts to share their ideas because often they're very considered. They don't shoot from the lip like a lot of extroverts sort of thing. But they often can make really fantastic contributions. But It takes a leader, but also others in a group to notice when someone hasn't spoken or haven't shared their idea to have the right information in the middle to make the best decision for this moment.

That's powerful. And when you think back to the work you did, you mentioned like Johnson Johnson, did you see some of these crew care components come through to help them perform well?

Yeah, I did. And something I worked with J&J twice, once in medical products and once in consumer products. But something always very innovative with J&J was what they call the credo, the J&J credo. And basically it was something put together 40 years ago, which in essence said, you know, the most important people are our customers. And then it's the employees and then it's shareholders. I'm paraphrasing hugely. But at that time, a number of board members actually resigned because profitability wasn't at the top. But it came to be a real guiding light in times of rapid change. That doesn't mean they're perfect or don't make mistakes, but You know, when I was there, and I can't speak for now, but every couple of years they'd ask really detailed questions about the, the J&J credo. So, and then, you know, have reviews and talk about, you know, where we might be falling, what we need to do differently. But it was something that was really embedded in their DNA.

That's amazing. And Graham, if you don't mind, take me to number 3 in the book.

So this is Red Zone Care. And, you know, we shared at the start that almost half of managers are severely stressed each week. 36% of employees are severely stressed each week. So there's quite likely, very likely to be someone in your team who in the Amber Zone and perhaps even the Red Zone, which is right at the bottom. And I have my own firsthand experience with that. I wrote a series of books after that called Back from the Brink. And also, you know, I was on the board of Are You Okay? for 13 years and really saw that evolve and launch. But I talk about following when someone is in difficulty and we usually identify that with changes. It could be changes in mood, changes in behavior, not being as social as they once were, changes in life circumstances, going through divorce or you know, financial crisis. So just, you know, look for that. And if you start to see someone acting a little bit different or doing something a bit differently, it's time to ask, are you okay? So the first I is identify. So that's looking for the changes. The C in ICARE is for compassion. And that's how we put ourselves in their shoes and ask, are you okay, with empathy. Now, it's often best to get the greatest response, particularly for men, to be walking shoulder to shoulder, not across a table. Men are more comfortable talking ahead rather than talking directly into someone's eyes. But the best way to start the conversation is to make an observation about the changes you've observed. It could be, look, I noticed that you know, you're not coming to the team events anymore. You know, we really want that to pick up, you know, the crew care. But I've noticed that. Is everything okay? Are you okay? So talking specifically about a change in behavior increases the chance it's going to happen. So, are you okay? And then next thing is, uh, yeah, fine, all good. And to really then consider asking a second time, are you sure everything's okay? And quite often that can then lead to a little spark which could be worth exploring. And ideally, you know, you want the person to feel heard and to know that you're caring for them. The next in ICARE is A for access experts. So, you know, encourage them to see their GP or to call the company EAP or call a helpline. Or go to a good website that's got self-tests, you know, to take some sort of action. The R is for revitalising work. And in most situations, the science of recovery tells us we are better off being connected with our workmates than sitting at home by ourselves. So, you know, just— it might mean reduced hours or reduced workload, but being connected is good for us, providing it's not a toxic bullying organization, bullying team, but it usually isn't. And then the final is E for exercise. And, you know, science of walking, if we have a brisk 30-minute walk, it can improve our mood for up to 6 hours later. So that's the whole ICARE approach. And something that I co-founded a business called WeCare365 as well. And we have a program there called We Care Manager. And what that is, it's 50 minutes of e-learning, but lots of helpful resources as well for managers to have that Are You OK conversation and to follow that iCare framework. And it's then followed by 12 nudge videos, one a week, which is a short video reminding them part of the course and encouraging them to put it together. And it's jargon-free. Doesn't use language like psychosocial risk or psychological safety. It's really just in everyday language. And we've worked with Fujitsu who rolled out in Australia and then in Asia and have now rolled out as a global solution for their managers worldwide in 4 different languages.

You should be super proud. That's incredible.

Yeah, it is. It does feel good.

Of course, you're making such an impact. And You've really committed a large chunk of your life to helping people thrive, to helping people stay in the game longer. And that's such an incredible credit to what you do. So I'd love to chat about you personally. What are the things you do on a daily basis? You know, tiny little things. Is it get up at the same time? Is there certain foods you eat? Are there certain protocols that you do that have worked well for you?

Yeah, I get up at 5:30 every day and I meditate for 15 minutes and then I do exercise. It's either walking or I do weight routines and that sort of thing as well. But I would probably exercise 6 days a week. Amazing. Well, yeah, but when you've been in the red zone, you never want to go back there again. And it's much easier to stay in the green zone than try and claw your way out of out of the red zone. So that's the— and when I come back from that exercise, I then answer those two questions. What good will I do today? And if I do just one thing, what will have the biggest impact longer term? So it's answering those questions. And then with those things, particularly, you know, to schedule them in the diary and to work out when I'm going to do it before I even start the day. Now, I'm by no means perfect. Sometimes I get caught looking at the news feed in the phone and get carried down a rabbit hole. But most times now, I don't allow myself to look at the phone until I've done those 3 things that I've just mentioned. I also don't eat breakfast. I practice fasting up until lunchtime, and that really works well for me. Keeping weight and everything under control. And I work in 50-minute sprints in terms of putting my timer on for 50 minutes and really try to focus on one thing for that time. Not always successful, of course, but really try. And then I get up and walk around and I'm a big believer in good posture, good breathing, and you know, good. For me, that just has become part of my day. The second element, you know, is around my intimacy and my great relationships. And I have now scheduled 3 events a week where it becomes killing 2 birds with one stone. So I've got a mate Richard who's the Chief Purpose Officer of KPMG in Australia. And most Thursdays we go out for an early morning walk, you know, and he's moved away now, but we now often do virtual walks with AirPods in our ears, look a bit crazy talking as we're going along. And every Sunday I meet with two mates at Kurkur in Northern Sydney, walk down to Manly and have breakfast. And another mate, Ted, who I've probably had the longest deep friendship with. We catch up, we caught up yesterday, in fact, we usually go for a longer walk, a couple of hours around, but it's a chance to talk about when you get those really great relationships, men are much better at nurturing relations. Sorry, women are much better than men at nurturing relationships. But I think it's really important to think about who do I enjoy being with? Do we do it regular enough? Because consistency really matters. And the next iron test is, do I feel comfortable being vulnerable with them? And for all of us, those sort of relationships are our scaffolding when we have setbacks or things go wrong.

Smart. So beautiful. I'm glad you're sharing this in this level of detail because this is the stuff that we want to know when we look at someone who's been through into the red zone and came back out. It's like, well, actually, what are you doing to stay in? In that green. The meditation bit is really interesting to me. If we go back to talk about that. So I've been meditating 7+ years. I'm not sure exactly how long, but I really love it. It's something I look forward to. It's something that helps me. May I ask what meditation looks like for you? Because some people will go, I can't do that. I can't clear my mind. And I've got different views of what meditation is. I don't think it's clearing my mind. But what is it for you?

It varies. You know, it varies. You know, sometimes I listen to a recording. Sometimes I just try silence. I've also been to, um, a spiritual group in India, been to an ashram there for the Brahma Kumaris, where I was there for a week. But what I would say to people is that there is no one type of meditation. There's many, many types. There's visualization, there's guided, there's, uh, spiritual, um, and then there's also, also silence. And I use, um, Insight Timer, a free app, which I think started in New Zealand. And it's extraordinary. It's got thousands on there, but lots of categories, but it's also rated. So, you know, you see what are the top ones there and follow that. Can I ask what meditation means to you, James?

Yeah. So for me, I initially started it to try and quieten the mind and try and clear the mind. And my idea was there'll be no thoughts. And so, I started meditating and getting really frustrated. I go, "The thoughts are still there. I can't stop the thoughts." So, for me, it's about focus now. It's about how do I just bring my focus into one point? And that's a relief for me. I have a mind that thinks nonstop and ideas and thinking about people and how to solve this. And it's fun. I mean, it's great, but it's also chaotic at times. Yeah. So for me, I just meditate to bring myself into one focal point. After I meditate, I feel more calm. I feel kinder to myself and others. And then I feel more energy. So it's just one thing I just love doing.

And if people are looking at a way to start, on that Insight Timer one, there's a free version and paid one. But on the free side, there's a it's a 40-day workplace mindfulness exercise, and it's led by two of the West's most respected mindfulness practitioners. One is Tara Brach, and the second is Jack Kornfield, and it alternates, but it takes you through a process, but it also helps you realize that thoughts are just thoughts. They're not real. Sometimes they may be real, but often they're not. And it's important not to embrace them and to let go with them. So it's 10 minutes each day. And some of your listeners might like to try that as an introduction to meditation.

100%. I'll make sure we put a link to that. And you've also kindly talked about a few resources. I'll get my team to get those links and I'll pop those in the show notes as well, plus a link to your book and a link to your website. I'll make sure it's all right below. So if anybody wants to connect, they can connect with you. Now, Graeme, the work you do is important. And as I say, I think there's a lot of crossover in our beliefs around what high performance is. And it's not just winning. It's more than winning. It's winning on field and off field. And I like to talk about having healthy relationships and healthy well-being, not perfect. And I get the feel that you're the same. It's not about perfection in these things. It's just about how do we counterbalance, how do we give them the nurturing that they need?

Yeah. And just on that point you made before, James, when I had my breakdown, my definition of success was the income I earned, the position I had, and often comparing myself to others, which is a recipe for disaster. Is what happened to me. But I once heard a saying attributed to that amazing American poet, Maya Angelou. And her definition of success, she says, success is liking myself, liking what I do, and liking how I do it. And I reckon that's brilliant because we all have a, we're all different. And so just really considering the answer to that is a really good thing. And that also is part of my Sunday reflection is, you know, in the last week, did I like myself? Did I like what I did? Did I like how I did it? And if I don't like the answer, what can I do going ahead? But I remember I did a, like a series of presentations over about 3 or 4 months with a a government department in Canberra. And in the first one was about self-care. I shared that as a definition of success. Anyway, a month later I came back going through it and a guy came up to me at the break and he said, I want to thank you for that definition of success. He said, everyone was encouraging me to go for this promotion, but I really like my life right now. You know, I have good balance. I see my kids. I'm able to ride, stay well, and so I decided not to apply. I thought, that's fantastic, you know, to really think about, is a promotion always a better option for you? It may or may not be.

Yeah, I love that pause, to sit in the pause and reflect and ask the questions that help you make decisions you can sleep better with. That's so good. Now, Graeme, may I ask you, I want to be respectful of your time, but Before I ask you a last question, I'm going to remind everyone, go buy your latest book, Great Leaders Care. The link is in the show notes and you can get it at all good bookshops. If you're traveling around Australia, you'll see it in the airport bookstores as well. So folks, please do that. But last question, Graeme. So, if you and I were to fast forward many years into the future and for a second, we just pretend that you know it's your last day on earth and someone very young comes into the room that you just love dearly, maybe they're a family member, but they're really young and they're new to the world and they say, Graham, how do I go about leading my life on purpose? What would you say to them?

I think that only comes from reflection and thinking about what you do and what you really enjoy. And I've been involved in presentations and sections where I encourage people to write the first version of their purpose. And that's usually about, okay, when you think about what have you been really proud of in your career, not what's your greatest achievement, what did you feel proud about? And when you think about who were you helping and then how did you help them? And so over a period of time, you know, I think we can even start to articulate that and to live it for ourselves. Like, you know, after I came back from the really depression, my purpose was helping people bounce back and thrive. But then as it's evolved, I talk about my purpose being about helping leaders build safe, resilient, and successful teams without losing their best people to burnout. So it can evolve. Now, a 5-year-old, I'm not sure would have the insight to do that. But I guess if I was communicating to a 5-year-old, I would just say, What feels really good? What's the best part of your week? Who do you enjoy being with? And often it's those questions that can help to guide people. It's the same way with R U OK? We started off obviously as an adult program to look out for our loved ones, but we now have it in primary schools. And of course, the messages had to evolve more about looking after your mates, looking after your friends. How do you do that? How do you care for your mates? So yeah, I guess that's not a bad bit of advice. You know, care for your mates and they'll care for you, for a 5-year-old.

Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. Well, I've got a 9-year-old. He's about to turn 10. And I think that advice would be equally helpful for him.

Good.

Yeah, thank you, Graeme. I just want to say a heartfelt thank you for taking the time to connect with me and my audience today. I know that they will have got so much from this and I know they'll want to connect and learn more about you and more about what you offer. So I hope they go get your book and enjoy your book. I'll certainly be spreading it with everyone that listens, but thanks a million.

Thanks, James. I really enjoyed being with you. And yeah, a lot of our thoughts overlap, that's for sure.

Yes, beautiful. Thank you so much, Graeme. We'll chat soon.