The Future of Big Pharma: DEI, Humanistic leadership & Innovation

What does it look like to be an inclusive leader? DEI is not a program. This is a way of doing business. Imagine if you feel loved at work. When people are presented with trying to change, they resist. Legacy is extremely important. We are both a human pharma and animal health organization. This is an amazing organization. We're transforming lives. I'm a champion of people and I'm a humanist. Oh, my God. Who wouldn't want to be part of something like that? It's complex to try to change mindsets. That creates a lot of burnout of their employees. Man, it's so simple to smile. So simple to say to someone, Good morning.

Today's special guest is Rafael Fantausi. Rafael is the chief diversity equity and inclusion Officer at Behringer Inkelheim, one of America's largest companies. He shares some absolute gold and it comes from a wealth over three decades of knowledge in working in large companies like American Airlines, Ikea, Coors for those that like their beer. And he sits on some incredible boards. But he's going to share one incredible thing that I think you will just be blown away by. It's the one thing that if we embrace it, it will transform our lives and the lives of the people around us. Sit back and enjoy the show. Raphael, a huge welcome to the Lead On Purpose podcast.

Thank you, James. Happy to be here.

Oh, absolute pleasure to have you here. Look, the work that you do is so important and we're going to get into talking about that work. But firstly, Behringer Inkelheim, tell me a little bit about what you do and the scale that you guys do that.

Well, we are a German company based out of Ingelheim, Germany, and we are both a human, pharmaceutical and animal health organization. So we work in both of those. Both of those areas, we are constantly developing solutions for very complex therapeutic areas of the health care pipeline and the healthcare issues of both humans and animals. And so we, you know, especially unmet needs.

That are extremely important and we kind of specialize on that versus issues that sometimes we all have as human beings in the healthcare and healthcare inequities that exist in the world.

Amazing. Thank you for sharing that. And look, your career history. I've looked through some of the amazing things that you've done and companies you've worked for. Coors and Ikea, Inca Group. Phenomenal. What drew you to Beringer Inkelheim? What was it about their North Star that you're like, yeah, I want to be a part of that.

You know, first of all, this is an amazing organization.

And because I have been in so many different companies plus in the civil rights and advocacy.

Realm, what attracted me is the humanistic values. This is a people centric organization. I'm at a point in my career in which legacy is extremely important in making a difference. Because I'm a champion of people and I'm a humanist. I needed to make sure that I find myself in an organization that aligns with my values of trying to make the world better.

Especially when it comes to complex issues like health equity and health access and, and unmet needs and on certain, you know, things that people are dealing with on a day to day basis. And the same. And then when you add also the animal health, you know, animals are a member of people's families and it's sometimes it's sometimes it might even be their only family. So to me this was a no brainer. By identifying a purpose driven humanistic organization were privately owned also conveys those values of trust, of respect, of empathy that are so crucial for an organization to make a difference in the world.

That's beautiful. And a lot of the larger organizations, we don't hear a lot of this. Trust, respect, empathy, humanistic, we don't hear those things. We hear quarterly revenue returns, how are we performing? And I love that you're going. Actually the result of those quarterly returns are because we're looking after our people and trusting them and equipping them and empathizing with them. You talk about humanistic for someone that's unfamiliar with that term. What does that mean to you?

Well, because we are privately owned. We're not bound by, in the US by the wall streets, you know, walls that, that, that they have and we can plan things more long term as a privately owned organization to be able to maybe even tackle things that the ones that are driven by their capitalism and even their individualism, you know, have to guide. They, that's, those are their guiding principles. Our guiding principles are really, really focused on, on very humanistic and core to the human journey experience. And that, that's, that to me is transformational. It's, it's transforming, we're transforming lives and oh my God, who wouldn't want to be part of something like that? At least I know I want to.

Yeah, I'm 100% with you now, Rafael Dei. That's what a lot of us have been used to hearing. Some companies are starting to dip their toes in and try to embrace it, try to figure it out. But actually D I C E Dice talk me through what that means, why you Think it's important to have the C in there and how it can impact our people.

Well, as a company that it's people centric, it is important that the culture of the company first of all is embracing of all of the differences and the innovation that we're trying to attract. And so having the C as part of the diversity, equity and inclusion acronyms is, it's actually more high level and the impact that we make, it's really at the culture element of the company, which is sometimes where some companies struggle with because they're trying to bring the diversity, equity and inclusion philosophies and principles into an organization in which the culture, it's more about the performance, it's more about.

The bottom line. And in some cases that creates a lot of burnout of their employees. So as a people centric organization, having us to also be making sure that the culture is the right culture for the people that we're trying to attract, for our patients, for our suppliers, for, for our customers. And as a company brand, I think it's extremely important and.

A great element to always have as part of this efforts because DEI is not a program, this is a way of doing business.

And that's where sometimes people miss the mark. This is a new and different way of doing business.

Incredible. And I want to dive into DEI as a way of doing business. But I was delivering a keynote, it was towards the end of last year, it was a leadership keynote and there was Q and A at the end. And I always love Q and A because you never know what's coming. But one person said, hey, during the keynote you talked about diversity and you talked about how it can actually help the company at all levels, including at the revenue level. And I was like, well, yes, there's been several studies done that show a company that's more diverse has significantly better profits. That's research. And they tried to argue with me on this and they said, look, it shouldn't be about diversity, it should simply be about if that person's best for the job, they get the job and we shouldn't concern ourselves with inclusion and all of that silly stuff is what he said. So we had quite an interesting dynamic conversation back and forth. And I met with him afterwards and explained to him how important it is that we encourage getting different thoughts and different people to the table, every table. So for yourself, what do you experience when you visit companies or if you're sitting on boards of companies that lack diversity, equity and inclusion? What's the potential consequence if we say, ah, that Stuff doesn't matter what might happen.

Well, I'm going to give you a tangible example that I think hopefully people will see this point about the importance of DEI and the business results.

One large group that it's growing in the United States is the Hispanic community. Of course, they come from 17 different countries, so they're all different. They're not monolithic. So you can't treat an Argentinian the same way that you treat a Spaniard or that you treat a Puerto Rican or did you treat a Mexican American. And so by not understanding, and you can begin to understand the nuances around that specific consumer demographic is by tapping into your talent so that they can guide you and inform you and provide you the how to, you know, in a very respectful way, build trust so that without that trust, people don't do brand adoption. If you do not focus using your talent to be able to tap into that market, you won't gain that market. And let me give you the right numbers for that. Right now, the Hispanic market as it is, which is only around 18, 19% of the population in the United States, carry a $1.7 trillion.

GDP, which actually just surpassed the entire GDP of the UK. So as a business, as a business, would you ignore the UK market?

So why are you ignoring the Hispanic market? You know, that is the sustainability. So what we are trying to do at the same time as creating an inclusive workplace, because this is really about inclusion, not just diversity. And inclusive workplace is we're preparing my company, Behringer Ingelheim, for the sustainability of the future by them being able to understand the nuances of people that are their employees, their patients, their suppliers and a community partner.

That's so inspiring. And if we break each of those down, how would you define diversity and then equity and then inclusion? So for someone who's going, I'm still trying to get my head around what they mean to you. What do they mean?

Well, you know, diversity means everyone. We're all diverse. But the problem is that people sometimes get, just get hang up on the two things that mostly most companies or everybody's talking about, or even governments sometimes want to know. Gender and race and ethnicity. But guess what? You and I are more than just that. You know, we have cultures, we have geographic diversity, we have cognitive diversity, we have physical diversity, physical ability diversity. We have race, religion, politics, morals, values. When you begin to look at individuals for their entire uniqueness, you will see that making sure that those individuals are feeling respected, are feeling valued in your organization, they're going to bring all of that uniqueness in that train of thought that actually galvanizes innovation. That's the value of diversity. Inclusion is really making sure that both people feel that they belong in the organization. And that's the culture. People have to match the culture of the organization so that they can feel a high sense of belonging, but also learning to value the uniqueness of each individual beyond just two dimensions of diversity, that is inclusion and ultimately equity is making sure that in the organization and also with your patients and your customers, you are providing people the opportunities that they, that they need as individuals to have access to success. You know, jobs, opportunities, you know, solutions to medical needs that they might have if they don't have. So that's where companies, if they work in equity in that frame, they will actually improve their sustainability and also at the same time build their brand.

It's massive. You're such a mission driven messenger. You're so passionate about this. I can see it, I can feel it. You know, what led you to this? What in your life led you to go? That's the line of work that I want to commit my life to.

You know, it's interesting because I, when I, this happened actually when I was at American Airlines in the, in the 1990s, that, that I'm aging myself there.

But unbeknownst to me, because I actually studied engineering and I was actually a systems analyst working in the pension department and we had to start our initiatives because of crisis. But I'm also, I'm born and raised in Puerto Rico and we are a territory of the United States. And to this day it's personal, the fact that we are still considered second class citizens of the United States. And unbeknownst to me, I had that fire in me.

To be able to first of all advocate for my people, but then become a champion of others, which then became a lot of a larger call for me. And something that I said, you know, what if I can do this for, you know, and try to work to equalize opportunity for my family and the members of the Puerto Rican community, I can do it for everybody else as well. And why not? And 32 years later, here I am.

It's incredible. You stayed in it, the long game, very few dollars.

I know sometimes it's very taxing because this is very complex. But I stayed thinking about if I make the difference of one person's life.

That is rewarding for me.

It's incredible. And the way I look at this, this is your time in the sun and the sun is shining on you right now. And you're here to do something that's very mission driven. So before the sun sets on your professional life, what is there that you're like, I've got to do that, or I want to inspire people to do this. Is there anything specific?

Well, first I want to jump off a plane, you know, and parachute. That is on my bucket list. I've never done it. My dad was a military man and he was a paratrooper. And I would like to have that same experience that he does because he is my hero.

I do what I love to do every day. Every day I'm inspired by every individual that I meet when they share their experience, when they share their challenges. So I can't say that there's a big thing that I need to do out there that I'm looking for. The little things matter. They do. People matter. And every day I try to tell everyone what you say and what you do, especially in our company matters. And I like to transform people through drops so that those drops create the ripples that we need to have to connect, to have movement in status quo.

And when you say that, it makes it feel so achievable, it makes it feel tangible, that it's actually small things. And the small things, by the sounds of it, are the big things. So how do we, at any company level, whether it's a very small company, whether it's a massive multinational, how do we start embracing this idea of dei? Where's the starting point?

You know, first tapping into the passion, tapping into the understanding, understanding the culture. And I think that if companies look at their culture statements and what do they really want to envision this company to be.

And, you know, inspire folks to bring their unique, their uniqueness and their authentic self to the workplace, but also, you know, elevate that, elevate the volume of who they are, because at the end of the day, that's what. How we are being able to transform the lives of people that are going through and, you know, very, very sometimes very tough medical issues. And. And so, you know, what we do matter in every. Wherever you're at, I tell my children, I don't care what you do in life, just do what you love, because success will come.

Such great advice. And it's so true. I mean, to me, that's the epitome of leading your life on purpose, is like, do what you love doing and keep doing it.

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's my north. And I've been very lucky in my journey. And of course, it has not been pink. Correct. It has not been rosy because there are times in which things get very complicated, because it's complex to try to change mindsets. But it can be done.

Yeah, for a moment, let's go and reflect on that, because often when I'm chatting with people, we hear about some of their big successes and what they're doing, but often what has got them there has been the tough stuff they've had to overcome. So has there been a moment in the last decade or two that you've really seen as a moment of struggle that you've overcame and you've learned a lot from anything come to mind?

Well, I can tell you, I mean, let's be real. What happened to George Floyd several years ago and.

That inspired the global knowledge of the Black Lives Matter movement.

Was very transformational, of course, because we were under lockdown as well, and we were all in our own households all over the world, having to consider our own mortality. And so we go, is this the world that we want for ourselves? And so that. That, of course, was transformational. But let me be very clear. Those things happen every day. They're happening all over the world. So that was a symbolic milestone because the world got to see in very tangible way what has happened, what we are doing to each other. But that's happening every day. When you cut somebody off on the road because you want to get there faster, when you, you know, it might not necessarily look significant, but we're not being humanistic. We're not being, you know, to each other. And so, you know, sometimes all of those things, those little things frustrate me as well, because I'm like, man, it's so simple to smile, so simple to say to someone, good morning. It's so simple to say, can I get you a cup of coffee? It's so simple to say, how are you doing? And we don't do that enough. And I wish that's what my call to action to people is, you know, because in one day, you're not going to be in a good headspace. And you would really want someone to say, at least to know that somebody cares.

Yeah, 100%. It's interesting. You ask, you say that people don't really ask, how are you doing? But sometimes when they do and they say, how are you doing? They don't actually want a proper response. They want a good. And then move on. And so they're not willing to listen to how you truly are. I was chatting with Nabila Extabilan, so she was a CPO up at Walmart Canada.

She was my boss.

What?

Nabila was my boss in the U.S. yes.

Why did I not do my research.

And figure that out? I love Nabila. I'm so glad you had her in the show.

She's amazing. Phenomenal. She really challenged my thinking on a couple of fronts. So we were chatting, and one was the how are you? And I said, good. And she went, how are you really? I went, yeah. She went, I'm in no hurry. Tell me how you really are in this moment. I was like, well, actually, it was a tough morning. Struggled to get out the door to get my son to school. The dogs were going nuts. Bit stressed. Traffic was insane. Like, I'm just starting to come right now. She went, okay, thanks for being honest and sharing. So that was the first thing she taught me, how to actually respond. Secondly, she started challenging me, and she said, james, tell me about your friends. I said, what do you want to know? She said, just tell me about them. You know, how many friends you generally hang out with, what they look like, where they're from, what they're interested in, background, ethnicity, age. So I started telling her, and she went, okay, I see a pattern. I don't see a pattern. They're all very different. She went, well, the pattern is that they're actually all kind of like you, and the majority of them look like you. They're similar age, similar gender, background. She said, you're living in an echo chamber, and essentially what you're putting out there, you get that reflected back, this confirmation bias. And she said, there's a scotoma. You've got this mental blind spot. And the reason it's there is because you're around James 2.0, James 3.0, and so on. You don't have someone who had a different upbringing and background to challenge you on your views of the world. And I was so grateful. I was a little taken aback initially, but so grateful. And I sat upon for the next few years, getting around people much older, younger, different background, different skin color. And it's been the most phenomenal experience, even on the show here. If you look at my first year in terms of who I interviewed, they were 95% male. I'm probably 80% white, and I didn't intentionally do that, but that's my internal bias that sat there. It's like, they're similar to me. I want to interview them. This past few years, it's incredible diversity. I learned so much more. My listeners give me much better feedback because they're learning so much More so Nabila has been inspirational. I want to ask you, what did you learn from Nabila that's. That stuck with you?

You know something? You know, oh, my God, I wish you would have been in some of the conversations that we had together, because we're both very, very alike when it comes to thinking about that and how we worked. We both, when we worked at Ikea, were trying to upward mentor the organization, to kind of begin to see the world that way.

One thing that I learned from Navila that still sticks with me is she used to write this acronym called Wait in her papers when she would be at a meeting. And she. And that meant, why am I talking?

I love it.

And I use that a lot because I like to talk. You know, because I like to be inspirational. But at the same time, when I talk, I miss an opportunity to accept your gift. And let me explain a little bit more about that. I believe everyone has a gift to give to everyone. And sometimes we are the ones that cheat ourselves from accepting that gift. Me not getting to know you and know who you are and understanding some of your challenges. Being empathic. But being empathic, by the way, requires. And this is where the bias is, requires that if you want to put yourself in somebody else's shoes, you have to take your shoes off first. And people forget to take their shoes off first to be more empathic. But I learned that from Nabila that I said, you know, listen, be a better listener. Two ears, one mouth. You know, let's listen. So that acronym always stuck with me, and it's something that I still use to this day and actually smile every time I write it on a piece of paper. Because Nabila's image come to my mind. And to me, she has been. She has been an inspirational leader. And it's someone that I'm very grateful because she gave me that opportunity to come into IKEA and do transformational work there.

It's incredible. Yeah. What an amazing leader. And I'm sure she would say exactly the same thing about you.

I would hope so.

I would say, so why am I talking? I think that's so important. And what's interesting is my team will often give me statistics on the podcast, and they'll say, james, in that podcast, you spoke 3% of the time. I say, okay, good. And then another podcast, James, you spoke 43% of the time. I said, okay, that's not so good. So I do believe that when I'm listening, I'm learning, and when I'm talking, I can't learn when I talk. So I really appreciate the wait acronym. That's really powerful.

I believe.

So now, 2024, what does that for you when you think about your company and your people, what do you see ahead? What are we heading into? Headwinds, tailwinds?

You know, both. I think that we're going to have both. This is very cyclical work. And some of the things and some of the challenges that you hear in the news here and there, you know, the pushbacks around dei, been there, done that, got the T shirt, use it to wash the car. You know, I've been in this realm for long enough to understand that, you know, when people are presented with trying to change, they resist.

But that's because sometimes our work is presented out of fear. I believe we're presenting our work out of love. And we are actually even beginning to talk about love in the workplace, which is very rare. And imagine if you feel loved at work.

What would you do if you feel love at work? And of course not the kind of love that makes you have a conversation with hr. That's not what we want to do here, but.

It'S love for each other because we are appreciating. I appreciate who you are and who you are is an incredible.

Piece of this puzzle that makes us the day to day workplace. And so we are transforming our organization in the US by adding some additional infrastructure that actually we have leaders from our business units really engage into. How do we implement the DEI principles as part of our day to day business operation? And we know that that's going to transform our organization. And it does take time. That's another thing. Managing people's expectation. Change takes time. And sometimes you will go, you will go two steps forward, sometimes you go three steps back, sometimes you, but you get up and you go back again and you continue the journey because it is a journey, it is not a destination. And we're preparing the organization behringer for growth. And that means DEI has a responsibility and DICE has a responsibility to help the organization with our elements of diversity, inclusion, culture and equity.

Incredible. And I hear that you're going to, you know, behaviorize or ritualize the DEI components. What does that look like? Again, if someone's listening, going, hey, how do we do that? What are some examples of being able to do that on a daily basis?

Building, you know, building the infrastructure, number one, to support by providing leaders. What does it look like to be an inclusive leader and what, you know, on a day to day basis. And by the way, these are the tools and the practices, you know, when you're not understanding something, the power of the pause could actually provide you, you know, that's, that's just one little tool that sometimes if we use that in the workplace a little more, you know, we, you know, it. First of all, it provides you the opportunity for you to reflect. Am I, do I have, am I putting any biases on this decision? You know, hiring or promoting or even engaging your team or engaging others as you're trying to move the needle forward? Because you have to influence, you know, that learning of the when to be a politician and when to be an advocate hat, you know, but also taking the opportunity on a day to day basis before you start a meeting to ask people how are you doing? And give them the opportunity to share. That way that everybody can understand that. By the way, I'm not alone in this journey. I'm here together with folks that are here to support each other and that we can be vulnerable enough.

To be ourselves and then tackle the challenges of the day to day.

It's incredible. I feel like we need you to jump on a plane and come to New Zealand. There's so much division now around Mori culture, which is people who essentially are native to New Zealand. And then with the new mentality and the new way of operating, there's so much division right now. And the way you present it, it's logical, it makes sense. It's from a place of human to human removing bias, it's really powerful. But change, as you said, change is scary. Change, we resist, we resist it. Why do you believe at a human level we resist change?

Well, I, you know, it's a natural instinct. We're human beings and we have natural instincts to create bias. Bias has been a great tool for us to survive. You know that. So, so some of those things are part of the human who we are as human beings. And also the two sentiments of fear and love, you know, we are we. You know, that's how I feel that there's only those two feelings in life because I can actually put every situation in one of those two categories.

But we have a decision. We can make the decision from one. Once we grow up, when we were babies, we were very curious, correct? Because everything is new. And then suddenly we switch to being judgmental. Guess what? We can teach our brains to also become more curious again and to let, and to, you know, tweak those, those levers that we have and you know, to, to, to be able to, you know, show more, more of, of that curiosity. Or more of that, you know, you know, humanistic element, because it's, it's in all of us. None of the things that I talk about are things that no one has. We all have. And by the way, we don't have a limit. We don't have a limit on love. We don't have a limit on fear. We don't have a limit on curiosity, on empathy. We put those limits on ourselves. So I think that sometimes we undersell, so we undersell our own selves.

I love what you're saying there, that there's an ability for us individually to tap into this illimitable amount of joy, love, compassion, connection. It's there, but it's, it doesn't need to be given to us. It doesn't need to be taught to us. We just need to uncover it. We need to peel back the layers and let it out.

You know, at Behringer, one of the things that we are beginning to do with our, with our people, leaders is embrace, embrace this new concept of care.

Which is curiosity, accountability, responsibility and empathy. Those are to me, the four elements that you do that will make you an intrinsic, inclusive leader. And so it is a simple. And once again, it's another one of those things in which we say we're not teaching anything new. You've been curious in your life, you hold other and yourself accountable. You are obviously here. So you're a responsible individual and you have been empathic in life. So how do we ignite it again? How do we reignite it? This is not, we're not teaching you a new skill. You don't have to go get an MBA in care and imagine the value that it has because the acronym and boy do I have a marketing mind in mind as well. The acronym also aligns with who we are as a company. We care for people and our mission and our business is to care for patients and their animal and animals and folks that are going through some health issues and those disparities. And so it's very natural.

We need more companies like Behringer. That's for sure. It's incredible. It's amazing. And just before we wrap up, a couple of last questions for you. So I believe that as leaders, we have a leadership lid and the lid is here. And we can only lead people to the level of our lid. We can only welcome people, inspire people to this level. So our companies will stop here too, if our lid is here. So we need to constantly expand and increase our lid, our capabilities, our wisdom, our awareness. So what do you do Personally, day in, day out or year on year to lift your leadership lid so that you can be more aware that you have more skill sets. What's your go to, to develop yourself personally?

You know, I was very lucky that I decided to elevate my own and upskill my own skills by doing a master's in leadership at Georgetown University. And one of the things that I learned, simple concepts. As you know, the most important tool of a leader is listening. Leaders miss a lot of things when they don't listen. And leaders are signal senders. Every day, every day you can do something and somebody's watching and somebody's looking at you and they will model those things, especially folks that you don't even know that they're looking at you to model those things. So it's a day to day journey. But for me, I continue to learn what others in my industry is doing.

Creativity and I don't put a lid on my learning. I think that's also something that we just need to be thinking that we learn until we cannot anymore. And so frameworks that work, things that are there that are coming from academia on how to improve a work place or how to improve a business, you know, I, I think that on any of those things that I can learn.

It'S, it's, it's going to be something that I'm going to be curious about and want to, you know, want to see if I can at least become a little bit knowledgeable about it.

I love it. It's like a real sense of mastery that you've got this learner's mindset for life. That's, that's really key in a leadership setting. It's interesting you mentioned listening and signal sending. So a number of years ago in my mastermind, so I host a mastermind that's industry diverse, so leaders from all different industries. One of the leaders that joined was the former All Blacks rugby captain. So All Blacks are a New Zealand world champion rugby team. And he's very well known and very well respected. So he joined the table for four months and everyone was so keen to have answers and have all the wisdom. Every week he was the last to speak. He sat there for two hours, nodding, taking notes and at the very end when he spoke, everybody looked and listened and took notes and were inspired. About three months into that, what I started to notice was that that signal he was sending of you don't need to have all the answers, you need to have great questions and you need to listen, that started to impact the whole group. All of a sudden, 90% of the group were saying nothing and saying nothing and listening and taking notes and asking better questions. So I love that you brought that up. And it just took me back to that moment of arguably one of our best leaders in the country having that exact same trait that you learned at Georgetown.

And that's an important one. You know, Nelson Mandela also said, as a leader, you don't necessarily have to lead from the front. Leaders can also lead from behind. And leaders also know when to follow. And I have learned through that that a lot of times I don't have to be the front and center. Actually, at Behringer, we love to put our employees up in front. We have business resource groups in which we engage.

You know, all of our employees from different affiliations, you know, be that race, gender, or professional affinity. And we like to put them up in front because the stories are better told by the folks that are doing this on a day to day basis than from me. I sit there and listen and I. And I once again, I go, wow, how lucky I am to be here in this privileged seat to listen to what they have to say. And that's another formula for success that we have in order to create an inclusive workplace.

It's incredible. And I have to say, I've spent the last decade studying Nelson Mandela and reading everything I can and meeting his family. The work that you're doing, he would be so proud of and would support it. It's incredible. Behringer, very lucky to have you. So just one last question. I'd like you to join me. Fast forward many, many years into the future, and you are highly aware that it's your last day here on earth. And someone very young that you care deeply for, they come into the room and they say, rafael, how do I lead my life? On purpose? What would you say to them?

Love.

Love.

I live in love. Live in love.

That's beautiful. I love it. Simple, powerful, deeply connected.

I love it.

Life cannot be that complicated. I think we reinvent our own issues sometimes. So.

Definitely. Rafael, I want to say a huge thank you. I don't think this will be the last time we chat. I just want to say massive thanks for the work that you do. Keep doing it, keep taking the big swings and keep leading your life on purpose.

James, thank you very much. And it really has been an honor to be here with you. And hopefully the audience will like what we have to say. And my challenge to them is love.

Good challenge. I'll take that challenge.

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