The Secret to EQ with Dr. Karyn Gordon

Karen, a massive welcome to the Lead on Purpose podcast.

Awesome. Thank you so much for having me.

It's so great to be connected. And I guess I should rewind a bit and just think back to a conversation I had with a mutual friend. He rang me up and said, james, you've got to connect with Karen. And that was Scott o'. Neill. And anytime Scott o' Neill says you got to connect with this person, I listen and I act. So I'm so glad he did that.

Scott is a beautiful human and the same thing when he said, you have to connect with James. So here we are. Awesome.

That's so good. Well, you and I have a shared passion and we both could geek out on this topic for weeks and months. And that is leadership. What is interesting is you have a, and your whole company does, has a really incredible view and a lens of leadership. So please share with the listener right now. What is that lens that you and DK leadership look through?

So leadership to me is a mindset. It is a mindset. It is not a title. It is not a role. It has nothing to do with what degrees we have inside our name, how much money we have in the bank. It is a mindset because you can be. And the one thing also that we really focus in is not just the mindset, but really figuring out with what makes a great leader. And leadership actually, you can actually develop certain developing leadership from childhood, really, for every single. For every single age group. So the area that we really focus in on is on leadership EQ skills. Because leadership is a huge umbrella, as you and I know. And so we really hone in on leadership, EQ skills and developing great leaders both at work and at home.

I love that. And it's interesting because eq, often when I'm chatting about that, people be like, oh, such and such has very low EQ or doesn't have it and never will have it.

Yes. Right.

Is EQ something that we can learn, we can improve, we can level up it?

Yes. And you know what? This is actually one of the reasons why I love the topic so much. Because when I really started understanding and researching and learning about eq, I realized, wow, not only is it one of the best predictors of success, however you define success based on research, we know that in the 21st century is the best predictor of success. But the part that I got most excited about is that you can actually learn it. So while some parts of emotional intelligence are easier or more kind of like naturally, kind of like almost help develop because of our Personality type, most of the parts of emotional intelligence is actually all things that we can actually we can learn, which means that all of us can learn these skills to help herself be successful again, however we define it. So I think that's the piece that I think is just so extremely exciting.

That is incredibly exciting. And what I understand as well is that this comes from research. This comes from you taking incredible research and then distilling it. And they're really powerful lessons and information.

Yes, exactly. And so what I love to do, my doctorate's in marriage and family, so I'm actually a registered therapist. Although I don't practice, I still practice, but very, very part time. Most of our focus is on leadership development in companies. But one of the things I just find so powerful with this topic is that, you know, there's so much research out there. One of the things I love to do take like go over all the research, find the patterns in the research, and then teach tools that are really easy for people to apply it. Because I find that we don't necessarily need more research. It's just, it's almost overwhelming. So seeing the patterns and then seeing the application so that people can actually create positive change, that's where we really, what I really get excited about, and.

I know that the listener right now is getting excited going, okay, okay, tell me, how do I level up my eq? So when someone's thinking about eq, I guess before they level it up, what is eq?

Yes.

From your point of view?

Yeah, so it's a great question. It's actually one of my, my, my favorite questions when I speak it at a business conference and this happened not too long ago, there's about 500 people in this room and they're all business leaders, mostly C suite. And I said, put your hand up. If you've actually heard of eq, everybody's hand goes up, right? They're really happy. They're like, yeah, I know what it is. And then I said, and then the second question, put your hand up, you can tell me with what it is. So out of an audience of 500 people, I'm lucky James, if I can get five people to put their hand up. And in this particular conference, you know about, let's say about three to four people put their hands up. So I'm like, great, okay, so tell me with what is eq? So right away we start seeing the gap, right? We've heard of the word, but a very few people actually know with what it is. And then they kind of fumbled through Their definition, it was, it was partly true, but only a fraction of really with what it is. And the third question I love asking is, tell me who can tell me how you develop it and build it. Nobody's hand goes up. And that is like right there. That speaks to where we've kind of dropped off, right? So there's been a lot of research about people write an article, but most people don't know what it is and they don't know how to build it. So what is emotional intelligence? It is simply a set of five skills. That's it. So one of the things again like what I like to do is take a lot of research, make it simple. So for everybody listening, think of the acronym cards. It's our own acronym because I, it just helps us kind of remember it. So here are the five skills I want everybody to think about. How would you rate yourself according to these five skills? So C stands for your communication skills, your ability to give and receive feedback. It's your ability to build trust with other people. A stands for your attitude, your attitude of yourself. Are you arrogant, insecure, confident? It's also your ability to set meaningful goals in your life. R stands for your relationship skills, your ability to see life in a different way. This is where generational differences, cultural differences, personality differences, racial differences come into play. It's realizing that how I see it is different than how you see it and how other people see it. So that's where empathy is also kind of part of that third category. D is a really interesting one. D is your decision making, performance, self discipline skills. And so a lot of people don't realize that when they are managing their time, they're actually using their eq. So someone who has very high eq, they know what their priorities are, they take initiative, they step on the gas, they know how to kind of basically maximize, you know, with what needs to get done. Even though it may not feel good in the moment, but they do with what's important. All of that is part of emotional intelligence. And the last one which is really significant certainly when we see the mental health crisis that's happening, is our stress anxiety, emotion management skills. So somebody who very high eq, they know it stresses them out. They know how to set boundaries, they know how to say no, they know the importance of self care, they might really focus on exercising to kind of lower their stress. And so somebody with very high EQ can perform at a very high level. Okay, so that's the A and the D with very low stress. So those are the Five skills. And so for anybody listening going, gosh, I really want to kind of get a little bit more data on that. Then you can go to our website. DKLeadership.org.org is not a charity, it is a for profit people in Canada, you know.org are very popular. So dkleadership.org and you can actually download a free leadership EQ scorecard and you can actually download it for yourself, your team, your kids. Because a huge piece of this topic, James is really starting to have some self awareness. So you can do. It's one page so it's easy. You can do it in 10 minutes and you can figure out, okay, of these five skills, which ones am I doing really well and which ones do I need work? And just starting to have that kind of self reflection is like really a good first step.

That's so amazing. And I'll be doing that right after we chat. I'll be going to the site and downloading it. I'll also put that link in our show notes. So if you're listening right now, please go and do it. Take the action. It'll take you five, ten minutes to do do and it's heightening that awareness. So okay, now that we know how we can develop it and we take this assessment.

Yes.

Where to from here? So if we went through each part of that, those pillars for cards, how can we, what's one thing in each of those pillars that we could do to 1% improve in that area?

It's a great question. So there's actually, I'll give you two actually. So, so step one is do the assessment because you're going to have like right away you're going to kind of figure it. Oh and you'll just probably feel better because one of are going to be probably better than the others. Right. We're like, oh, you know what, in this category I'm actually doing not too bad but the other ones I have to. So, so I think doing the assessment is kind of a good first step in terms of how do you build it. There's a lot of different ways, but a couple of really good practical ways is identify the superstars in your life according to the five of the five. So think about who are the superstars of people that you know, not somebody on television, somebody that you actually know that is just crushing it as it relates to communication or is really good at goal setting or is really good at stress or is really good in terms of self discipline. Like put a name. So print off the assessment and then put a rock star in your own life that you think is doing an amazing job, and then go out for coffee with them, go for lunch, and say, you know what? I was listening to this amazing podcast and I did this assessment, and you were the person that I thought is just doing amazing. This. Can you give me some pointers on how do you do it? How do you give feedback so people listen? Or how do you manage your stress without kind of, you know, how do you say no without feeling guilty? Like, lean in and ask the rock stars in your life on what the skills and habits are that they have done according to that, and you will get a wealth of information. So that is kind of one really practical way. And if you don't feel like you have the confidence to maybe ask the people, just start observing. Watch them, Watch how they handle feedback, watch how they set goals, watch how they say no. Just pay attention. And because it really is like a language. It really is like a language, James. Like. And so if people, you know, and that's why if you kind of hang out with people who it's very high, eq, you're just going to start learning it. You're just going to start learning the language. Just like, if I want to learn French, I want to hang out with people that speak French. So that's a really good way. Another way that's really powerful is to ask for feedback. This one's scarier, but it's. It's incredibly powerful. So ask, you know, two to three people in your life, work and home, because you're going to get different kind of feedback. You know, you can basically print the assessment for yourself. Here's how I think I'm doing it. And if you're really gutsy, copy it and give it to your spouse, your kids, and maybe two or three coworkers and say, how would you rate me according to these? And then just see if the numbers match. Because it's possible that we think we really manage our stress really well. And our spouse is like, no, you don't actually. Because when you come home, you're, like, crazy or you're, like, stressed out. Like. And so getting that feedback is a really powerful way of. Of maybe showing us some gaps and some blind spots of where we actually have to lean in and kind of make some changes.

That's great. And if we get that feedback and we rebut, we defend, we justify, we get angry. What does that say about req?

Yes, it says that we're really struggling. It says, you need to take Some read my book and take some courses. Because the key thing with emotional intelligence is that this is a journey for all of us. Nobody really arrives. Okay? This is something that, this is an ongoing lifelong journey that we all have to, we all need to kind of pay attention to. And so when you're asking for that feedback, try to get curious, not defensive. Try to get curious, not defensive, lean in. And if something doesn't really kind of make sense to you, say, you know, I'm surprised by that. Can you kind of give me an example of what I've said that has given you that impression? Because it's so tempting for us to get defensive with feedback, but we want to get curious, not defensive.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I want to try and for my own mind, I'm thinking through this. So in my mind we'll say we've got this neutrality line. Below that line, we can experience anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, and we go and get therapy for that. Above the line, you know, that's where we're growing. That's where there's hope, there's joy, and we can get coaching or even some consulting above the line. So with eq, if I had some major trauma that I hadn't dealt with and I'm below the line, so to speak, and dealing with anxiety and depression and so forth, can I still develop my EQ or should I have other support along with me as I'm developing it?

Absolutely. Every single person can develop emotional. It does not matter. And this is part of the reason why again, when I kind of went into this work, you know, because I'm registered as a therapist as well as specialist in this area, it has really given me a very wide net to work with people because I will work with people that have massive anxiety, depression, low self esteem. But I also learned, because I've been doing this for a long time, that with certain tools and skills that are very practical, it is amazing with what people can actually do. And so while some parts are for sure, is there chemical balance, is there certain, like there's a lot of things. Obviously there's, you know, genetics will obviously play a play. But James, this is one of the reasons why I'm so excited about this. When I first started practicing 25 years ago, it was at a medical office and I worked with three physicians there. And so when people have anxiety and depression, where do they go? They go see their doctor. So they would go see their doctor. And I came on board. I was pretty young. I was really excited, ambitious and, you know, want to Kind of help people. And I just learned if I can make things really practical and really, really tangible and if I had people that were hungry to learn it, we kind of do some really cool things. And so I would start working with people with some very, very heavy, heavy, heavy topics. Suicidal, cutting, self harm, addiction, like you name it. But I realized that if I could help them with their mindset and if I could give them very concrete tools and help them understand, you know, anxiety and depression is just a feeling. It's the thoughts that are the problem. So if I can help them change their thought pattern, it will actually help indirectly change how they feel. And if I could help them do that, all of a sudden anxiety drops and depression drops, confidence kind of goes off. Self, self harm kind of completely stops. And my clients were seeing such tremendous impact. My practice exploded. In two years, there was almost over 100 doctor medical doctors in this building. And they would start seeing the results of their patients. And I'm not anti medication. I mean some people for sure need it. The majority of my clients never went on it because. And I would always work in collaboration with medical doctors. So I would say I'm going to focus on your emotional well being while I'm doing this because a lot of the topics have a physical impact to it. You always need to be working with your medical doctor. Let me work with you and coach you on very specific tools. And it was amazing with what people could actually do. And so, so it's interesting, right, because this whole thing about mental health and people like I have anxiety of anxiety. Yeah, we all have anxiety. Okay. There's a lot of mis under, like a lot of people do not understand anxiety is just an emotion. That's all it is. We all have anxiety. And so the challenge is that, and we're seeing this in the workplace a lot of hr, like we don't know how to manage this. We don't know what to say when people come into our office and say have anxiety. But this is where my background has been super, super helpful because.

I train, I teach, I have seen and I've seen tremendous results with what people, what happens when we change our mindset? Which is that a part, okay, that a part of the cards? When we really learn how to master a healthy mindset, it has massive impact on how we actually feel. And in my book, I think it's like the 10th or 11th chapter. I kind of give examples on how I help change, how I help clients. C suite senior leaders who are also parents, they want to kind of do this for their kids as well. How you can actually change your mindset. When you change your mindset, it literally indirectly changes how you feel. This is the stuff they may be teaching in schools. This is.

I'm with you.

Like, this is, this is the practical stuff. You know, this is the practical stuff because. Because everyone talks about this mental health crisis and we are in a mental health crisis because we're not teaching this in schools. Like, so I've had so many clients over 25 years going, this is like a game changer. Like, it's a game changer once we realize of how much power we actually have. So it's very exciting. I think I just get very excited about because I see the results and I know that it can really help people.

Yeah, I can see that passion. And that's just. We need more of your message. We need more people reading your book. And I want to think about the mindset for a moment. So what I hear is that, hey, look, we can influence our mindset and we have a lot of actual influence over it. So for the listener that's listening right now, what are one or two ways that they could actually influence their mindset? To create more harmony, to create more positivity, to create more hope and to manage the anxieties that we have literally every day.

Yeah. So it's a great question. So the first thing I want everybody to really understand is the mechanics. And we're going to kind of go into a little deeper on the S side. Okay. The stress and energy and emotion management. So the first part is I love things that very. I like logic. Okay. I love logic. I like numbers. I like things to make sense. And I find that with a lot of my clients, you know, when we think about emotions, it's like, it just seems so abstract and we. It's like, oh my gosh, I don't know, I don't understand it. So it's like it actually creates anxiety when we even think about it. But I tell all my clients, and we can really understand how our emotions, feelings work and then we actually can learn with what we can do. All of a sudden it's like, oh, that's how it works. So here is kind of like a one on one lesson. We're all going to have situations or stimuli. Things are going to happen in our life. We're going to get bad feedback. Maybe our parents neglected us, maybe we've had got a disability. We're going to have, we're going to have stressors in our life. We all have them. Okay. Some people, their parents divorce, we've got like, financial bears. So we all have stimuli or stressors in our life that's external, but what happens is how we think. Every time we have stressors, our mind will attach a meaning to that stressor. Okay? Our mind will attach to, you know, we'll have a mindset about that stressor. And that mindset could be either really healthy or it can be really toxic. If it's healthy, I'm probably going to feel. I might feel discouraged, but, you know, or sad, but I'm not probably going to feel depressed about it. But if my mindset is toxic, I'm probably going to feel really anxious and just stressed about it. So it's really learning how to figure out what are the thoughts that are inside of my head. And how we think drives how we feel, and how we feel drives our behavior. So it's cognitive, emotional behavior. So it's like this domino effect. So feelings are just like anxiety, depression. They're just feelings. That's it. And we've got hundreds of them. Most people think we have between five and 50. We've got hundreds of feelings. You can't change feelings. They're not good or bad. They're not right or wrong. They're just. They're doing their job. So you can't change feelings, but you can change your thought. So if I tell myself I'm stupid, I'm stupid, I'm stupid. If that's my thought, James, how am I going to feel stupid? Of course I'm going to feel stupid. If I feel stupid, then how do you think that's going to affect my behavior, my actions? What's going to happen in terms of me going after jobs? What's going to happen? What do you think?

Well, you're going to definitely limit yourself. You're going to feel that you're not worthy, you're not enough.

Exactly. So you can see the domino effect. But it all started with the thought, right? So it all started the thought. So if, if, if I'm telling myself I'm stupid, I'm going to therefore feel crappy. I might feel anxious, I might feel depressed, and that's going to now negatively impact my performance in my life. But if I can change my thought pattern to maybe I'm struggling with something, I need to learn how to ask for help. And I can kind of start thinking about being very mindful of what are the thoughts that I'm telling myself. Are my thoughts truthful? Are they kind? Are they empowering, or are they toxic? Because if they're toxic, we're going to feel like crap. If they're really empowering, we're going to feel hopeful and kind of start putting a plan together. So it's all around helping people really unpack. What are the thoughts inside of my head? How does that drive my behavior feel and how does it drive my behavior? And then learning how to actually change the thoughts, it's very powerful. It's deep, but it's so powerful. And I love doing it. With clients of all ages. You can teach this to 8 year olds and I have clients that are in their 90s, so you can teach it pretty much for every age group.

That's gold. I love it. And so for the person that's in process and they're going through life and they're trying to figure out what are my dominant thoughts, what are the things that keep coming up? Are there points in their day or their life that those thoughts will come in and they should capture those thoughts before the busyness kind of, they get forgotten.

Yeah. So what I do with my clients and I do this, a lot of my, a lot of my executive clients is, you know, a lot of people come in. So here's usually with what happens for a lot of people, a lot of times they'll come in, they're like, I just don't feel great. I don't feel great. And I'm like, well, how do you feel? I don't know how I feel like the awareness level is just not really there. So the first thing is I'll try to get them to figure out what is the feeling that they're actually having. So if I feel anxious or I feel sad or I feel depressed, and then I try to get them to connect the thought to it. So I feel anxious because I think what, I think I'm not enough. I think I have to have this net worth. I think I'm not going to get this promotion. I think my kids don't like me, I think my wife's going to leave. I get them to actually start writing down their thoughts. Now for some people, the thoughts are very top of mind. Just give them a pen and paper and they can actually start writing them down. For a lot of people, they're like, I'm not sure, I don't know. And that's where learning how to be quiet and still is very powerful. And so I'll tell clients, I'm like, that's okay. Let's, let's, let's wait. Let's be silent, don't worry about the silence. I'm fine. And I allow clients to kind of get comfortable with silence because in the silence, the thoughts will kind of bubble up. And when they bubble up, then I get them to write them down. And so kind of step one is writing down what are my thoughts that I'm telling myself. And all, generally speaking, all of our thoughts start with, I think that's kind of a good way of kind of, you know, to helping people figure it out. And then I get my clients to look at those thoughts and then ask themselves, would you tell somebody that is just like you, that looks like you, talks like you, has your same job, that is just like you, Would you tell your best friend who is just like you those thoughts? And most people say no. And that's the clue. They're toxic because. And you know, when we give advice to our best friend who we love and adore, usually we're going to be giving very empowering, kind recommendations. Right? We're not. So it's usually it's like a little bit of the flag. Am I telling myself empowering thoughts or toxic thoughts? And that is kind of a good way for people to kind of figure that out. Great.

And do you go from then the toxic that I thinks and then when it's empowering, do you change the vernacular so it's iambs or.

Yeah, so usually you could. But I find for clients to really adopt because it's not until they adopt the new thinking, like really adopt it, that they will feel any different. So there's usually like this season in terms of helping people figure it out. So what I have found the most helpful is actually when I get people to rewrite their thoughts, I actually get them to do it in second person because I find that their brain will adopt it faster if it be kind of being a second person. Like, what would you say if you would not tell your best friend that? What would you say because your thought. You can't erase thoughts. You have to replace thoughts. Our brain is very sophisticated. So. So I usually get clients, if I'm doing this in an individual way, I actually get clients to do, almost do it in a chart form, toxic thought, new thought, and. And some of them, I mean, depending depending on with what the client is, with what they've gone through, even in trauma, even with very, very deep, dark things that people have experienced very deep stressors, you can still do this kind of work. But it is really, sometimes clients will have like one toxic thought. And when we charge towards it, we like I help them Write like a whole page. Like you just. You charge. You have to. You have to approach your thoughts from a very logical perspective. But it's very powerful because once your. Your brain adopts the new thinking, they'll start to feel different. You know, their anxiety will start dropping, their depression will start dropping, and that's when actually you can really tell. And this is what I found working at the medical office is that's when you really can tell is something on a physical basis. If I can really help them have healthy thinking and their anxiety and depression drops, you know that the root issue is more emotionally based. But if I can get them to develop healthy thinking but the depression anxiety is still high, it means you can tell that there's more of a physical base. And that's why it's so critical to always be working with a medical doctor to kind of manage that. That physical side.

Such great advice. That's incredible. And if I'm adopting a new thought and it's empowering, and I'm saying it, but I don't yet believe it. So how long do you think that might take me? Do people give up going, I've got a new thought, but actually I still don't believe it today, tomorrow, next week, and they give up on and go, well, that's not me. Is there a point where we can start to believe our thoughts?

Yeah, for sure. And it just is a matter of time. And I just, I tell my clients all the time, like, I know the process, I know how this works. Just, you just got to stick with the program. Like, just stick with the program and just trust me. I know what I'm doing because I've done this for so long. And James, I've never not. I've never not seen it work, to be quite honest.

So good.

But I tell Clint, you've got to stick with it. Like, it's like fitness training. You're like, just like training. We are training our body, we're training our mind, you know, and so, and so I get clients to write out the new thoughts. I get them to, and then I get them to read it over and over again. And for some clients, it might only take a couple of weeks. For some clients, if the, if the toxic thought is really rooted in their brain, especially. And I'll see this with my older clients, if it's rooted in their brain, it will take them longer because the thought, the toxic thought has been going on longer. So I actually find I can see faster results with kids and teenagers because the toxic thought hasn't Been a one around so much. But when I got clients in their 30s, 40s, 60s, the same process works. But you. It just takes longer.

So you can get that. You can kind of rip the weed out when they're younger kids and young adults because there's no depth to.

Does that kind of make sense? Like, it's just. It hasn't been going. It's a numbers game. To be quite honest, it's a bit of a numbers game. And I'll often even actually, because, again, I like logic and I like numbers. And you and I were talking before how we both love to measure things. I love math. It was always one of my favorite subjects. And so I thought if I can always kind of apply math to this, and it is like a bit of a math game. So I'll ask clients, like, the toxic thought, roughly how long has that been going around your head? Well, it goes around my head about 10 times. And for how many years? Well, maybe about like over, you know, 10 years. Just add up 10 times, 365, like, there you go, that's the number. And this new healthy thought. How long has this been going on for? Well, I've only said it to myself, like two times. I said your feelings, and this is where I understand the mechanics of it. Your heart does not know the difference between what's a truth and what's a lie. If you feed it toxic thoughts, it will feel it. It doesn't have the ability to say, is that truthful? Is it not truthful? And so you. And so it's a bit of a numbers game. If you kind of feed yourself really truthful things, it's just a matter of time before your heart will actually kind of catch up.

I really resonate with that. I really do.

And does that kind of make sense? It's a bit of a numbers game. And so I just tell my clients, I'm like, okay, you've got like 185,000 times your brain has told you that you're stupid and you're not worth it. So it's going to take a little bit of time, but usually it only takes a few hundred times. It doesn't take anywhere near that. But there's a very specific way that I coach clients how to challenge it. For the brain to really adopt it, it can't be. It's deeper and bigger than kind of like, you know, kind of, you know, one sentences or one kind of comments, or like, you're worth it, like, which is true. But especially with. With a lot of clients, you know about 70 to 80% of people really identify with the imposter syndrome with insecurity. They have got deep rooted toxic thoughts about who they are as a person. And so when we challenge it, we just charge towards it. So you have to challenge in a certain way for the brain really to kind of adopt it. But, but everyone can do it. And it just takes a lot of discipline to kind of focus in on it.

I love it. And so if we want to charge towards it, how do we do that? What would be the way to do that passionately and with conviction.

So in my book, I give this example. There's a number of examples of different kind of CEO leaders that I've kind of worked with. And it's interesting, right, because we can see people talking about leadership. We can see people that have, you know, they're CEO of like this big company and they look so confident. And one of the things that I love about my work is when they work with me and they love the fact that I'm a leadership developer and EQ specialist, but I also have this, this background in counseling, right? So the mask comes up and all of a sudden they start talking about their toxic thoughts. And, and so in my book I kind of explain very specifically on how do you do it. So again, like I said, you, I get clients to kind of like write out what are the toxic thoughts. Just kind of like make a list what are the toxic thoughts and then what are the new thoughts? And making sure that the new thoughts are kind.

They'Re truthful because you can be kind and loving and be mean about it, right? So you want to make sure that the new thoughts are kind, kind and loving. Truthful. Get a person to focus on what they can control. Help them accept what they cannot control and be specific. It's got to make. So whatever that new thought is, it has to check off those five boxes, okay? That's the new mindset. And so I describe it, it's kind of like if I have bad eyesight, I get glasses, right? So this becomes the new mindset. This is the new glasses for having a healthy mindset. So whatever thought we're going to be telling ourselves or giving advice to a friend, those are the five criteria. Those are the five that I found. And the way that I figured it out, it's kind of fun, actually. I don't know, maybe. But my fourth or fifth year of practice I noticed, you know, self esteem is a big issue. So I started kind of doing like gathering all the research and how much that was correlated with anxiety and depression and all kinds of different things. And I knew you could change thoughts, but I didn't know how you could do it. And so it was a lot of trial and error. And all I had to do, James, is kind of think about, okay, who do I know in my life that is really good at giving advice? And I figured out five different people in my life. Some were colleagues, some were family members, some were friends. And then I started figuring out what's the pattern of that advice? Like, you know, a lot of people give advice, but why do some people give really good advice or really, really they're wise counsel? And some it's like really bad advice. And I started thinking about these different people, like, what is it that kind of ties the pattern? And I realized it was these five things. These were the five things that they spoke truth, but in a loving way. And they got me to focus on things I could control and get me to accept the things I couldn't. And they would be really specific about it. And so whenever I'm getting people to reframe their thoughts, that's the criteria. So whatever the stimuli that we have put on the glasses and think about how we could apply that mindset with whatever external tough, difficult stressor that we have in our life. And all of a sudden we have a new mindset of actually how to approach life.

Your methodology, I know you cannot see it, but inside I am so excited by what you just shared. So excited. And I know that the person listening right now is probably on their phone on Amazon ordering the book. I'm going to put the link in the show notes because that's just one thing you share in the book, but that has the power to transform lives, like transform leadership, transform companies, teams, families.

Yes.

So cool.

It is so cool. And it applies to every age group. Like, I started creating this methodology and understanding this when I started working with teenagers than children. And then when I kind of expanded into working with business leaders, I'm like, this is the same stuff. It's just, it's reshaped to apply more to a corporate culture, but it's the same stuff. And, and again, the beautiful thing about it is that these are all things that every single one of us can learn for ourself. And then we can actually help teach with our team at work and our actually our children at home. It's the same, it's the same set of tools. And that's kind of with what's kind of put me in a bit of an interesting space. In the leader. Because as you and I were chatting about before, leadership is a huge umbrella. And what really. With what's really set me apart in this. In this world of this leadership arena is that my. The tools that I teach you can apply to all parts of your life. It's like the same toolkit. So you can apply this at work and you can apply this at home. Same. It's the same set of tools.

Yes. Really cross pollinate across all parts of your existence.

Yeah. Yes, yes.

Special. What's interesting, it's kind of regional and specific to New Zealand. Here we have the highest teenage suicide rate in the oecd. So pretty often we have the second first or second highest domestic violence rate in the oecd, and child mortality rate, I think, is third. So people think in New Zealand, they think of this beautiful place, and it is beautiful. But we do have our problems. And my son is now 6, and the day he was born, there was a big shift in terms of what my priorities were, as most parents could probably relate to. And I thought, okay, I've got 10 years.

To really learn a lot myself and then to try and equip him with skills around understanding his emotions and his feelings and how he can manage his mindset. So he's six. And we. We've started the work and it's slow, but I've been reaching out to different people that have operated in that space to be like, what can we do? Because I worked at a private school and I was there for about 13, 14 years, and there was 10 kids that committed suicide in that time.

Oh. Oh, that is tragic.

Youngest was 10 years old.

Oh, my God.

Horrific. It's just not good enough. And we need to do something about it. And some people are very passionately trying to do stuff about it, and others are trying to, like, brush under the carpet. Let's not talk about it. That's not an option for me. So with my little boy Finn.

What you're sharing, I think I need to start. He's only 6, but I need to start having those conversations. And where do I start with such a young child? And I'm sure there's somebody else listening right now that has a kid that's young or they have a child that's maybe nearing puberty, which is kind of the danger zone for major mental health crisis. Where do we start? Initial conversations.

Oh, it's such a good question. And again, this is one of the reasons why I love this topic so much, because leadership applies to all parts of our life. Right. And so when you think about you can teach leadership skills to your children, it's really. So I would say that one of the first things. And I'm a mom of twin boys that are 15 years old. It's been so fun for me to kind of learn this academically and apply it professionally and then, oh, to apply to my own family. So my husband jokes, he's like, at the dinner table, I'm like, all of a sudden I'll start going off on a thing. And my husband's like, oh, here's another life lesson. Bo.

Myself. And they're like, mom, okay. I'm like, I got it, got it. So I can't, like, I'm so passionate about it. But they're really good sports about it. They're really good sports about it. So there's lots of different ways you can actually teach kids. But one of the couple of the really important things I would actually focus first on a little bit on the east side or sorry, that this. The stress and the energy motion management skills. And a really good thing to kind of help kids is starting to articulating what's the language of feelings? Okay. Because feelings, okay, so if you think about feelings, and this is really interesting, a lot of people are not able to articulate the language of feelings. So. Okay, James, how many feelings do you think we have?

I mean, when I think about that, I would probably instantly go to 12. 10 or 12.

Right. So most people would say that we have hundreds. Some experts think we have about, you know, plus 3,000 plus happy, sad, overwhelmed, nervous, anxious, exhausted, perplexed, tired, passionate. What was that? I don't know, 10, 12. So we have a huge fault of feelings. Most of us don't know what they are. We don't understand how they work, but they don't understand how they affect us. And so this would be a really great simple way for you to start with your son. So he comes home from school and you say, how was your day and how did you feel? Now most kids will be like, it was good, I was fine. That's not a feeling. Okay, so feelings are one word. Okay, so feelings are one word. Happy, sad, nervous, anxious. And so one of the things that I actually found working with boys in particular is if I ask them how do they feel? They'd be like, I don't know. Because it's like this vault that they don't understand. So what I do is I give a drop down menu. I'm like, well, did you feel happy, sad, nervous, anxious? See, if we give a Multiple choice. They're like, yeah, you know, I felt happy or I felt actually sad. So by giving them actually starting to kind of teach the language of emotions is a really great way of actually helping you. Helping them lean in. And so you get them to actually start articulating with what their emotion is. And then you can actually. Then you can lean in and say, you know, tell me more, a little bit about, you know, why did you think that or what happened in your day that kind of caused that? And so you can kind of lean into it. But helping them be aware of their emotions is a really, really good. A good starting place. It's a. It's just for sure a good starting place. Is that helpful?

Very.

Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that I was just on another podcast, I was talking about about this, and. And the interview was like, oh, Karen. He goes, is like, so good. It was around differentiating between a thought and a feeling. This is another really big one. Okay. And this kind of ties into both the C and the. And the S, going back to the cards analogy. So here's another question for you, James. I feel as though you're a terrible dad. Okay, that's a sentence. Is that a thought or a feeling?

I feel as though you're a terrible dad.

So to me, when you say I feel, it makes me feel that that's just your feeling. But then again.

No, when I think about it, that you haven't actually described a feeling. It's a thought. It's. It's a thought.

Correct. Okay, everybody listening. This is super important because you can apply this both at the office and with your spouse and with your kids. Most people don't answer that question right. It is a thought. I'm going to say it again. I feel as though you're a terrible dad. I've used the word feel in it, but it's not a feeling. It's actually bad English, and a lot of us talk this way. It should be, I think that you're a terrible dad, and therefore I feel frustrated, sad, disappointed. Why is this so important? Because as a parent and as a leader, you want to empathize with feelings, but you can challenge thoughts. You never challenge a feeling. So if somebody says, I feel anxious, I feel depressed, I feel sad, I feel abandoned. You never challenge feelings, but you can challenge the thought. This is a really, really important thing because I see this. You know, if I do marriage coaching, for example, I see this all the time. So. So people will say, you know, I feel like you're not Really a good partner. But don't challenge me on that, because that's how I feel. And the person's like, what do I do? Like, so they feel stuck. Right. But that's actually really bad English. So you're like, no, no. What is the feeling? You can listen to the feeling, you can empathize with the feeling, but you actually challenge thoughts. And this is really important in conflict work, in communication work, but also with your kids. So with your kids, you help them with really understand what's a feeling, what's a thought, and to learning to differentiate it. So I'm going to listen to my feelings, but I'm going to really start paying attention to my thoughts. I'm either going to challenge my thoughts or re. Or redo my thoughts and just helping people. And that's all part of that EQ side that I'm talking about. That kind of si. And you start teaching it young, James. You can start teaching literally to your kids. Yeah. And kids will pick it up faster. They will actually pick it up faster, I find, actually more than adults.

It's interesting because Finn, for probably the last year and a half, so from about four and a half through till this point, often when there's heightened emotion, he will say he'll have his moment. And then he'll say, dad, I just feel sad. Or that I feel really tired, like, after a big outburst. And I'm like, thank you for sharing that. Like, let's. What do you need? Let's. Let's talk.

So what you can do. Yeah, so what you do is you empathize with me. Like, thank you for sharing. So what you did. Thank you for sharing. Help me understand why you feel sad. Okay, so listen to the feeling. Empathize with the feeling, but lean into it. Okay. So he might say, I feel sad because I got left out at school, or I feel sad because my friend didn't sit down beside me. So all of a sudden you're going. You're going into the thought. Or he might say, I feel sad because I have no friends. I think I have no friends, dad. So you're the thought and that feeling. And so what you do, you empathize with the feelings. Like, thank you for sharing. I can understand you feeling sad. Let's talk about that thought. See, what I'm doing is I'm helping him separate it. Let's talk about that thought. When you say that you think you have no friends, do you really think that's true? Is that a truthful comment? Because I know that you hang out with Brad and Joey and so let's lean into that. Well, yeah, but I don't really hang out with them that much. See, what I'm doing is I'm starting to challenge the thought.

Because it's very possible that maybe he does have friends, but maybe the one friend that he really wants is not paying attention to him. Do you see what I'm doing?

Yeah.

Is I. So you. You. So we empathy. We lit. We. So feelings are really, really helpful to help us understand with what the thought is. But we don't want to just empathize with feelings. In fact, if we empathize too heavily with feelings, sometimes I can actually breed entitlement. You want to be careful about that. Okay, so you listen to their feelings, but you kind of like lean in and figure out what's the thought. Is the thought truthful or is it really toxic? And that's the part you want to get to and to help, really, to help your kids.

And what's so interesting about when you're saying this, I'm seeing and feeling and hearing Finn in this situation, but I'm also seeing a CEO talking to a staff member. Like, it's no different. Someone on your team is going to be experiencing these same things. And that's a great methodology that transcends all ages.

Yes, it does. And this is the beautiful thing about this topic. That's why I love it. And that's why so many of the CEOs and senior leaders we work with are like, karen, I love this. I can apply this. They're like, oh, my goodness, this is so helpful. I can apply this with my team. I can apply this with my clients. My customer. And I can apply with my kids. And that's. I think the beautiful thing about it is just, it's so transferable to all parts of our life.

And as you were speaking, I was just thinking about feelings and emotions. So what's the. Are they one in the same or are they different?

It's a little bit of a debatable topic. So feelings are kind of more, with what I was saying, like happy, sad, nervous, anxious, perplexed. You know, they're one word. Emotions tend to. It's a bit more of a broader topic, and it kind of almost embodies more the physical part of it as well. So, for example, if I feel anxious, usually it's because my thoughts are about future. What if I don't get this job? I think, what if I don't get this job? What if I don't get married? What If I don't have this medicine, net worth. So anxiety tends to be fueled by thoughts that are. But the future stress is usually correlated more with the thoughts around time. I don't know if I have enough time to get this project done. So when we talk about emotions, it's the feeling part, but it's also how it affects us physically. So if I have anxiety, I might get, you know, really dry throat, my heart might start racing, I might have stomach issues. Right. Like, so it takes on like a physical component, which is why whenever I work with a client, you know, kind of when you talk about kind of below the line or anytime that they have like some, you know, some real anxiety, stress, depression, like, these are serious. These are not, they're not making this stuff up. These are real things. I, I always have to make sure I'm working with a medical doctor because there is a physical, there's a physical impact, you know, and so, and so it's very much that kind of collaborative approach. But when we think about emotions, we kind of think about both the, the thoughts, the feelings, but also kind of that physical kind of in terms of how it affects people as well.

That's so helpful. Thank you. Really, really helpful. And let's just for a moment, I'd love to chat about your book. What inspired you to write the book? Why the title? And what's the impact you want to make on the world around you with the book?

Oh, great question. So the book came out of. If anybody has seen my TED talk, you will. You will have heard the story. It'll be a little bit of a repeat. But so is my second year practice. I was specializing with teenagers, millennials. I love young people. But it was. This one particular day was a bit of a game changer. I had all these different teens coming into my office that. It was my 7 o' clock appointment. She came in, she was about 17 at the time, and she started talking about how she didn't like who she was. And, you know, it was interesting. She was a high performer. She was a top a student. She came from an affluent family. Like, on the outside, this girl looks like she has the perfect life. And this is, this is. I saw this all the time. But what was interesting is in my office, the mask comes off and she really starts talking about, I'm not enough, I don't like who I am. And how is it, you know, how is affecting her friendships and all kinds. And she had massive anxiety and massive perfectionism. So it was the way that she looked at me and you know, when you said you used to work at a private school, I remember looking at her, I said, what is being done about this in your school? Because, like, I keep hearing this narrative. And it was the way that she looked at me, James she said, nothing, nothing has been done in this my school. And it's the way that she looked me. And I remember saying to her, I'm going to do something. Like, I literally, like, blurted it out and, and at the time I had my master's in counseling, I knew about self esteem, but I didn't really know how it worked and how to change it. So I just booked off time, you know, and basically spent a lot of several days at the university and kind of pouring through the journals because back before the Internet, that's what I had to do. There was no Internet, right? It was like old school. This is how old I am. And so I literally am like climbing up and down a ladder of these, this, the University of Toronto libraries, and pulling off journals. And I start again pouring through the research and I started seeing this very powerful pattern on confidence and how that affects goal setting, perfection, emotions, how you choose friendships and all that. But it was all in the. It was all scattered in all these different journals. Like every, you know, every researcher has kind of done a different part of the research. And I thought, how can I make this easy for people to understand? And then I just remember sitting back and started mulling over how can I kind of make this all fit together. And then I came up with the three chairs. So the three chairs. I created the concept of three chairs. I started teaching it in schools. I begged high schools to take me. You know, I had no speaking background. I begged a principal to take me up on it. And I remember the first time I spoke at a school, I had kind of decided on the concept of the three chairs, but had never tested. There was no testing. James Hero There was no testing. I just had this idea in my brain and I said to the principal, give me, give me some actors, put me on stage, give me some chairs, and I'm going to teach kids about self esteem. And I literally almost threw up in the car. I was so scared driving to school, I'm like, this could really, really fail badly. But I thought, I'm going to go for it. And so I once I gave it my first high school, it was 500 kids. And I watched the body language, they got it. Once I taught the concept, they got it. And I'm like, oh, my goodness, this thing is actually. It's resonating so I'll share with your viewers just so they can kind of understand with what the three chairs are, just so that people can really understand it. So these are the three Chairs is the book. It's called the three Chairs. And so what it is is when I would do this in schools, I would actually have actors, young people act out the characters. I give them a little character sketch. So that's very powerful. But when I teach this in companies, I usually just get three chairs and put them in front of people to kind of explain it. So here's a concept of it and this is all based on science, is all based on research. And the book gives you all the research on where, you know, where I kind of found all this, all the data. But a person in the left hand chair is what I call the insecure leader or the blind attitude. This is the person. They put themselves down. So they're very tough on themselves. They could be a CEO of a company, but internally in their own head they're, they're really, they're their own worst critic. They put themselves down, they're super tough on themselves. That's where the imposter syndrome kind of fits in. The one in the right chair is what I call the arrogant leader. They're arrogant, they're full of themselves. They put people down, they, they, when they're pretty aggressive in their communication, they don't really care how it makes other people feel. And then you've got the middle chair leader, the confident leader. And this is the person that feel really good about themselves. They don't feel like they're better than anybody else, but they have a sense of humility. And this is a really key part. This is the leader that says I know a lot but I don't know everything. So I'm going to seek out feedback, I'm going to ask for people for my blind spots. And so I teach the three chairs and it's powerful because once you kind of identify with what chair you're sitting in, you can make very strong educated guesses based on research on what, on how you actually make decisions. So if I'm sitting in the left chair and this is really good as a for parents. So if I've got a 10 year old and they're sitting in the left chair, James, who do you think they're going to be attracted to for their friends? What's your guess.

In terms of being there? So.

The one in the right chair was the arrogant alerts.

Yep.

In the middle, heart centered self love Know who they are. Yeah. And then on the left. So they're probably going to not make great choices in France.

Right, Exactly. And that's what we find. Research tells us that if I, if I've got a child who is sitting in that left chair, they are more likely to choose friends that are also sitting in that left chair or sitting in that right chair.

Interesting. So they're not going to go for the person that's got that self confidence.

And no, if I've got a child who's sitting in that middle chair, they're more likely to be unconsciously attracted to people who are sitting in the middle chair. Now a lot of times. So just take that one little bit of data, just like the one I mean. Okay, so this is where this is. This is what I got so excited about when I'm sitting at this university and I'm pouring like, I'm like, hang on a second. So if somebody is insecure, they're more likely to be attracted to other people who are insecure. And I was like, well, that doesn't make any sense. But when you understand the mechanics of it, it actually does make sense. Because what happens is if I'm in that left chair or my child is in that left chair and I'm telling myself toxic thoughts. We talked about toxic thoughts. Right. If I'm telling myself toxic thoughts, I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy. What is that middle chair person going to do? They're going to say, karen, you're worthy. But that doesn't match what I think. So what will I do? I will discount it. You're just saying that. You're supposed to say that. You're my counselor, you're my mom, you're my parent, you're my friend. I won't believe them because it doesn't match my thinking. But the person on the right chair will say, you're not worthy. That matches what I'm telling myself. So guess who or is attracted to. And that's why friendships are attracted, usually in those two n chairs and also dating partners.

Wow.

So I'll tell you a really cool story, James. I was speaking at a private school in New York City. This is a number of years ago. And I was a parenting. It was a parenting event. And it was on the three chairs. And afterwards I have a woman come up to me, a mom, and she says, where are you going right now? I said, well, I have to go back to the airport. I'm flying back to Toronto. She goes, my limo's downstairs. Can I give you back, can I give you a drive in my limo back to LaGuardia Airport? I'm like, sure, great. New York City is where you know, kind of crazy with, with taxis. So I get into her limo and with all the traffic, took us about an hour. And for an hour she debriefed her life according to these three chairs. She goes, Karen, she goes, I came to hear about a parenting conference. And I'm sitting and I'm listening to you. And that three chairs actually blew my mind away because all of a sudden I could understand why I made certain choices, why I chose certain friends, why I married the husband I did, because I'm sitting in the left chair, come from a very affluent family. Everybody thinks we have this great life and I have massive anxiety, very low self esteem, and who do I, who do I marry? I marry this guy. Our marriage is horrible. He blames everything on me. I'm the problem. We have a horrible marriage, we divorce. And now, so I'm now single, I've got this daughter and where she, she's sitting in this chair and she goes, I'm just listening to you. And I just, everything started making sense. And this is again, when we talk about why is this not being taught in schools, Right? Like so, you know, she said, this is such a simple, brilliant concept. And she goes, I want to be that model. I want to show my daughter what this looks like. Because, you know, we don't, we're not born in these chairs, James. We learn, we learn where to sit and we learn from a lot of different places. But what I have found in my work in 25 years, the best predictor is our parents. And even more specifically, the same gendered parent. There are exceptions to that. I see lots of exceptions. But I would say from the majority perspective, that's what I see. So if I'm sitting in that left chair and I have a 15 year old daughter and she sees me afraid to take risks, she sees me care what other people think. She sees me not say no. She sees me kind of, you know, be feedback, fragile and fall apart. She sees me weigh myself all the time. She picks it all up.

We learn it. But if she sees me sit in that middle chair, she sees me set boundaries. She sees me see feedback as data. She sees me prioritize self care. She also learns that so for every parent listening, learn how to sit in the middle chair for yourself and show your children what this looks like. Just be it, show it, because they will start learning it without Even realizing that they're learning it. So, you know, when you talk about Little Finn, you know, for you to show them, you know, what this is, what the middle chair looks like. And for any parent, you know, again, this is a business book, right? It's a business book, but I taught this to teenagers and children and the TED Talk. What's a little bit different about the TED Talk is when I taught the three chairs in my TED Talk, I intentionally broaden the audience so that people could watch the TED Talk as a family, in schools and with companies. And so again, if you go to our website, you can actually download questions. You can download discussion questions for families, for schools and for teams. You can watch the TED Talk and then go through the questions. Because the whole point is, I don't want. I want people to learn this, yes, in the workplace, but let's start teaching it to kids, let's start teaching it to schools. You know, that all of us can learn how to sit in the middle chair. And so for Mother's Day with my own boys, I said, I don't need a gift. What I want for Mother's Day this year is I want us to watch the TED Talk together. They hadn't seen it yet, and I want us to print off my own discussion questions and let's discuss it as a family. And James, it was amazing. For an hour, my husband, my twin, 15 year olds, and myself, I just let them watch the TED Talk and they had not seen it yet. And then we went through literally every question that is on our handout. We had the most amazing family conversation about where we see ourselves sit. Maybe when we see ourselves sitting in the left chair, the right chair. When are we in the middle chair? Because nobody sits. I forgot to mention this. Nobody sits 100% in this chair. Okay? All of us are moving around, okay? There's no such thing as perfect. So Nobody sits here 100%. My question for everybody listening and watching is, where do you see yourself sitting the majority of the time?

And. And then you can also kind of even broaden it. You can even ask yourself, okay, so when do you see yourself sitting in that right chair? When do you see yourself sitting? I've had. I have had, you know, senior leaders that I work with say, Karen at work. I see in the middle. Middle. I am confident. I know when I go home, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know how to connect to my spouse. I don't know how to connect my kids, you know, and so it's Interesting. We move around. We move around. So. But where do we see the majority of the time? And then what can we do to help ourselves? Sitting in the middle chair.

Yeah, I hear you saying, like, you know, lead yourself first. Learn to do this, and then you can lead others being whether that's your kids, your team, whoever that is, but actually figure it out for yourself. I really love that approach.

Well, and it, and it speaks because, you know, one of the things I learned working with teenagers many years ago is the one thing that. What do they hate? Hypocrisy. So, you know, when. So parents listening. If you are sitting in that left or that right chair and you're trying to pump up your kids who sit in a wheelchair, they won't pay. They won't. They won't listen to you. You won't. You won't have earned their respect. You have to show them how. What this looks like. And by showing them. And again, that's not perfection. You know, it's kind of like, you know, but really trying to really show them how to, you know, as best as you can. I mean, again, nobody's in that middle chair all the time, but if you can and really try to show them what that looks like, that is going to be your best kind of education to your kids.

Incredible. Well, I can't wait to be getting that book for a lot of my clients and friends and family so they can check it out. I'm going to put that in the show notes and also your TED Talk. I know that whoever's listening right now will want to check out that TED Talk. It's got north of a million views in the last three months. That's incredible. And it's only growing, so I'll make sure to put that in there. So if you're listening right now, please go and go and check that out right after the podcast.

Awesome.

That's amazing. Well, I just want to say a huge thank you. I've always got a question that I like to ask at the end before we wrap up, and that question is this. So let's say we fast forward towards the end of your life. That's many, many years out from now, and you've got a very young person in your family or in your life that you care about, and they want to ask you one last question. That question is this. How do I lead my life with purpose? What advice would you give them?

How do you live your life with purpose? Oof. It's like a divine question, I think. I think, you know, I Talk in the book about six, what I call the six Ps of engagement. For somebody to really be successful, however you define it, there's kind of six kind of buckets they have to pay attention to. Six ps of engagement. You can apply to companies self and also with your kids. It's an amazing goal exercise actually. But One of the six Ps is on purpose. That's actually the, that's actually the first. And so we teach, we have a career course that we teach young people. And for me, when I was trying to figure out what my career was going to be when I was, had finished grad school and I was trying to figure out what that is and I'm. And I, I knew that I, I didn't know exactly what my, what I wanted my job to be. I just, I knew I wanted to help people and I realized that was my purpose. My purpose is to really help people. I want to help people live their very best life. I want them to learn how to sit in the middle chair. And so whether or not that means I am speaking to high school students or writing books or doing courses, to me it is really helping people understand and identify their self worth. That is my purpose and my purpose, you know, my career purpose. But also in my own family and also in terms of like, you know, the people that I surround myself with is, is really helping people identify with what their purpose under and really understand with what their self worth is. That, that is what I'd say is my, my actual, my absolute purpose.

I love it. And again you're modeling it so that young person in many years time will look at and see what you're doing, how you're doing it. And rather than even verbalize the advice, you're, you're walking the talk.

I hope so. You know, my word. I don't know if you do this, James, but I actually, every year I choose a word for myself kind of. I set all kinds of different goals, but I'll always have like one word that is kind of my word. And this year my word was impact. I really, you know, I felt like for 25 years I have worked with the most amazing families and companies and teams. But it's in our, in our company and you know, there's only X amount of people that we can kind of work with. And so this was the year to really. My word was impact. You know, we talked earlier about kind of the global impact and I think that's why I was just so excited about the TED talk and the book and Podcasts, right? Like, to me, podcasts is like a great way of giving that, you know, kind of reaching more people and having impact. And so I hope everyone's found this really helpful and check out the resources and really lean into it. You know, I hope this has inspired people to kind of take. Take action, to really understand their own self worth and how that is really the starting point in terms of being a great leader.

You've been an amazing guest to chat with and your message is phenomenal. It's really powerful and it's very simple. I understand. And the way you distill it, it's very helpful for me to just actually understand and embody it. And so I'm excited to share that with. There'll be thousands of listeners that will be listening to this, so you've impacted definitely thousands more people today. I wish you nothing but the best and I look forward. I don't think this is the last time we're going to chat. I feel there's many we got to do.

I'm telling you, there are so many parts. I mean, we really just kind of focus more. Really, to be honest, we just really focus on the stress side, actually, that. The last. The last category, we got lots more we could talk about.

James, between now and our second conversation. I've got a challenge to the listener right now. Listener, buy the book, read the book, highlight the notes, write all your questions. And if anybody has any questions that they want me to pose to Dr. Karen, Send them to me. And in our second conversation, we will dive deeper into the book.

That's a great, that's a great takeaway. And then do the scorecard, everybody. That is a really good way around. Lean into this. Like this is all based on size. Whether you're practical, things that they can do, everybody can do to kind of get themselves in that middle chair. And when you think about the middle chair again, that middle chair concept, they have, they have worked on those five skills that I've talked about, those. Those five cards. So that is kind of the secret sauce. And all of us, doesn't matter what our education background is, what our age is, what our title is. All of us can learn how to learn to sit in the middle chair when we develop those five skills.

So amazing. Thank you so much, Karen. You have the most amazing day.

Thank you so much.

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